I'd like to know which class of amp sounds better or how they differ?
I'm in the process of choosing a new power amp and 2 of my options include a class AB amp (2 x 160W) and a class H amp(2 x 260W).
There's a lot of technical info about but side my side which would be more suitable to run my pair of Klipsch F-1, 93db, 8 ohm, 2-way speakers?
Cheers
I'm in the process of choosing a new power amp and 2 of my options include a class AB amp (2 x 160W) and a class H amp(2 x 260W).
There's a lot of technical info about but side my side which would be more suitable to run my pair of Klipsch F-1, 93db, 8 ohm, 2-way speakers?
Cheers
Class H is pretty much Class AB, but the difference is that Class H has whats called a tracking power supply. Basically, the Class H amp adjusts its power supply voltages according to the amount of power its being asked to supply
Typically Class G/H is only seen in PA amps where efficiency becomes important as higher output wattages are required. For domestic use, its usually not warranted.
93dB speakers are very sensitive. You'd be fine with the 160W amp. In fact looking at Klipsch's specs for those speakers, 260W would be too much and likely to damage the speakers should you crank it too much.
Typically Class G/H is only seen in PA amps where efficiency becomes important as higher output wattages are required. For domestic use, its usually not warranted.
93dB speakers are very sensitive. You'd be fine with the 160W amp. In fact looking at Klipsch's specs for those speakers, 260W would be too much and likely to damage the speakers should you crank it too much.
Hi jaycee,
I'm looking for the best soundstage, separation and control. I never crank up the volume. My living conditions don't permit it.
I heard many times the more power I have the better separation and open feel I will get back. The guys from the Carver forum said the TFM-55 would sound great with 375 watts per channel!!!
The 2 amps I am looking at are the Europower A500 and EP1500. Yes pro amps, one more suited for the studio(A500) and the other powerhouse EP1500.
I'm looking for the best soundstage, separation and control. I never crank up the volume. My living conditions don't permit it.
I heard many times the more power I have the better separation and open feel I will get back. The guys from the Carver forum said the TFM-55 would sound great with 375 watts per channel!!!
The 2 amps I am looking at are the Europower A500 and EP1500. Yes pro amps, one more suited for the studio(A500) and the other powerhouse EP1500.
Why not Class A.
www.firstwatt.com F4 and F5
They are very much great sounding Class A amplifiers
for higher effiency speakers, like 93 dB.
93 dB was something like Nelson Pass himself used for these amplifiers.
http://www.firstwatt.com/products.htm
They are also very easy to build with good instructions of Master Pass.
Of course you will need a nice Tube Pre Amplifier or Op-Amp frontend
as voltage amp to feed those firstwatt power followers.
www.firstwatt.com F4 and F5
They are very much great sounding Class A amplifiers
for higher effiency speakers, like 93 dB.
93 dB was something like Nelson Pass himself used for these amplifiers.
http://www.firstwatt.com/products.htm
They are also very easy to build with good instructions of Master Pass.
Of course you will need a nice Tube Pre Amplifier or Op-Amp frontend
as voltage amp to feed those firstwatt power followers.
Funny you should say. I'm planning to build an Aikido line stage amp. Just trying to get the parts together. Haven't found any valve suppliers yet here in Uruguay.
I wanted to use the valve pre-amp with a good SS power amp.
Considering the cost of the A500 power amp I could buy 2 and bi-amp my speakers: Would this make an audible difference in the sound quality or is it not worth it??
Cheers
hey.
I am also very fond of Aikido ... the 24 Volt version
There are good PCB to order for Aikido 24 Volt Tube amplifier.
I would try to get 6GM8 / ECC86 low voltage tubes.
This would be my first Tube Amplifier Project.
( I feel better not going into those 300-400 Volt hazards, from start
)
If biamping is worth while. Yes it is
The load on each amplifier will be less (50%) = less distortion.
If you would build active crossovers, and use one amplifier for each speaker Woofer and Tweeter,
then would be much greater improvement in sound quality.
But this is a very big project .. even for Two Way speakers.
You can read Rod Elliott ESP articles on biamping and active systems:
Benefits of Bi-Amping (Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
Lineup
I am also very fond of Aikido ... the 24 Volt version
There are good PCB to order for Aikido 24 Volt Tube amplifier.
I would try to get 6GM8 / ECC86 low voltage tubes.
This would be my first Tube Amplifier Project.
( I feel better not going into those 300-400 Volt hazards, from start
)If biamping is worth while. Yes it is
The load on each amplifier will be less (50%) = less distortion.
If you would build active crossovers, and use one amplifier for each speaker Woofer and Tweeter,
then would be much greater improvement in sound quality.
But this is a very big project .. even for Two Way speakers.
You can read Rod Elliott ESP articles on biamping and active systems:
Benefits of Bi-Amping (Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
Lineup
Hi lineup,
Great information thks.
Looks like electronic active crossover is the way to go then.
So from what I understand I would use an electronic crossover with the signal input feeding into 2 power amps. One to handle the lower frequencies, remove the speakers crossover connection, and connect these wires to the lower frequency input.
The second amp that handles the higher frequencies will be connect to the high frequency speaker connection for these.
Also I was advised to buy the Aikido Octal valve amp. You are suggesting to build a 24 volt version? Just using a AC 230v-24v transformer to feed the power supply board that is adapted to 24V?
Cheers
Yeah.
you are 100% correct about the active sound system
the benefits could be:
you can adjust one power amplifier to work well with low frequency .. and do not have to bother with high
and the other one can be custom to handle only high frequency well
- In addition each amplifier will not put out all the power for sound
this give also less distortion
Also can each amplifier output be adjusted to match 'perfectly' with the woofer / tweeter in question.
So, you see there are SO MANY advantages with such a project.
But as i told you: It is a very big project with many parts.
And many power supply.
The active crossover using Op-Amps is put before the power amplifiers input.
--------------------------
I did not suggest 24 Volt DC Aikido for anyone else but me.
The choice is up to you & anyone reading this.
The normal higher voltage Aikido would be a lot better hi-fi performance.
But for a Tube newbie like me, I settle for 24 V .. to start with.
Regards
you are 100% correct about the active sound system
the benefits could be:
you can adjust one power amplifier to work well with low frequency .. and do not have to bother with high
and the other one can be custom to handle only high frequency well
- In addition each amplifier will not put out all the power for sound
this give also less distortion
Also can each amplifier output be adjusted to match 'perfectly' with the woofer / tweeter in question.
So, you see there are SO MANY advantages with such a project.
But as i told you: It is a very big project with many parts.
And many power supply.
The active crossover using Op-Amps is put before the power amplifiers input.
--------------------------
I did not suggest 24 Volt DC Aikido for anyone else but me.
The choice is up to you & anyone reading this.
The normal higher voltage Aikido would be a lot better hi-fi performance.
But for a Tube newbie like me, I settle for 24 V .. to start with.
Regards
lineup,
Another doubt.
I see the active crossovers have precise frequency adjustments.
When I feed one power signal into the high input terminal of my speaker (after removing the connector bars) does if have a secondary crossover to prevent unwanted low frequencies reaching the tweeters? I mean with the electronic crossover set up with the power amps, I'm concerned about the frequency range being split between the 2 power amps.
I assume I have to adjust the electronic crossover precisely to match the tweeters and mid-range/low-range woofer?
Cheers
Another doubt.
I see the active crossovers have precise frequency adjustments.
When I feed one power signal into the high input terminal of my speaker (after removing the connector bars) does if have a secondary crossover to prevent unwanted low frequencies reaching the tweeters? I mean with the electronic crossover set up with the power amps, I'm concerned about the frequency range being split between the 2 power amps.
I assume I have to adjust the electronic crossover precisely to match the tweeters and mid-range/low-range woofer?
Cheers
ah yes you are right. My mistake I misread the specifications.
Need to think if I want to buy an electric crossover for the biamping scenario and how to set the frequency crossover points.
I'm not sure how the internal speaker circuits handle the high frequencies. If I input frequencies that are too low into the tweeter inputs does the speaker have an internal crossover also to prevent damage??
Need to think if I want to buy an electric crossover for the biamping scenario and how to set the frequency crossover points.
I'm not sure how the internal speaker circuits handle the high frequencies. If I input frequencies that are too low into the tweeter inputs does the speaker have an internal crossover also to prevent damage??
Brit01 said:
You must have/build special speakers when going for active crossover + one power amplifier per driver
Actually such speakers have NO PASSIVE CROSSOVER.
They are totally replaced by those before the power amplifier.
Suppose you use your 93 db SPL speakers for an active system.
You would have to remove the crossovers in the speakers.
This would also mean, that your speakers would have maybe 95-96 dB SPL!!!!
Because passive crossovers have a power loss .... like 1-3 dB.
( Each 3 dB SPL means twice the power in an amplifier.
20 Watt into 93dB equals 10 Watt into 96dB speakers.)
So, by using high effiency speakers, we can use smaller and smaller power amplifiers.
Already 93 dB is way above avarage
Normally we see something like 87-89 dB in High End audio speakers.
---------------------------------------
I suggest you stay with your nice idea of bi-amping.
While keeping your speakers intact.
Now, for bi-amping you need speakers with separate terminals for High and Low.
A 2-way speaker with 4 terminals, shows it is ready for bi-amping.
Brit01 said:
The higher the voltage rails the better dynamic range you will get with the amp.
My first amp build was running off +/- 40 volts and I was amazed just how quickly the transients were clipped.
My next build was +/- 60 volts and that can get considerably louder before it clips the transients.
Hi lineup,
ok I'm learning a lot here.
Now my speakers do have separate terminals for biamping.
So I'm confused a little here now.
I have the music source (eg CD) then a preamp (or in my case the cd player for now has it's line level volume pot) and the 2 power amps.
Is there no need for the electronic crossover between the music source and power amps?
I use 1 amp and connect to the lower frequency terminals and the second amp to the higher frequency terminals?
Cheers
ok I'm learning a lot here.
Now my speakers do have separate terminals for biamping.
So I'm confused a little here now.
I have the music source (eg CD) then a preamp (or in my case the cd player for now has it's line level volume pot) and the 2 power amps.
Is there no need for the electronic crossover between the music source and power amps?
I use 1 amp and connect to the lower frequency terminals and the second amp to the higher frequency terminals?
Cheers
No. No need for any crossover work.
The passive crossovers in your speakers will be the ones used.
You just attach your 2 amplifiers.
One power amplifier to the 2 terminals for upper = tweeter.
One power amplifier to the 2 terminals for lower = bas/mid woofer
... and same of course for the RIGHT channel
This gives you need 4 power amplifiers = 2 stereo amplifiers
And you give both amplifiers the same input signal.
From your CD output or Pre Amp output.
That's it!
And you will hopefully find a noticeable higher quality of sound.
I have also 2 very good speakers that are ready for bi-amping.
They have SPL ~ 90 dB
I have not tried to use bi-amping.
But I will ... some day.
Lineup
The passive crossovers in your speakers will be the ones used.
You just attach your 2 amplifiers.
One power amplifier to the 2 terminals for upper = tweeter.
One power amplifier to the 2 terminals for lower = bas/mid woofer
... and same of course for the RIGHT channel
This gives you need 4 power amplifiers = 2 stereo amplifiers
And you give both amplifiers the same input signal.
From your CD output or Pre Amp output.
That's it!
And you will hopefully find a noticeable higher quality of sound.
I have also 2 very good speakers that are ready for bi-amping.
They have SPL ~ 90 dB
I have not tried to use bi-amping.
But I will ... some day.
Lineup
After reviewing what you have for speakers (Klipsch F-1s), I would suggest the lower power amplifier.
An electronic crossover to remove 80hz~100hz and down and then adding a subwoofer subwoofer would be the best use of funds for these speakers. Bi-amping the bass-midrange to tweeter crossover point will gain you little but added expense and complexity.
For a while I ran a pair of their 8" + horn two-ways with an electronic crossover to a JBL 2235 subwoofer with 800+ watts on the sub, and about 250W on the two-ways. The sound was very, very good, but the little tweeter horn could not handle the power (and the amp was large enough that it didn't clip).
Properly adding the subwoofer (via an electronic crossover) cleans up the midrange, as well as going deeper in the bass, and can also play louder (within the limits of the horn).
An electronic crossover to remove 80hz~100hz and down and then adding a subwoofer subwoofer would be the best use of funds for these speakers. Bi-amping the bass-midrange to tweeter crossover point will gain you little but added expense and complexity.
For a while I ran a pair of their 8" + horn two-ways with an electronic crossover to a JBL 2235 subwoofer with 800+ watts on the sub, and about 250W on the two-ways. The sound was very, very good, but the little tweeter horn could not handle the power (and the amp was large enough that it didn't clip).
Properly adding the subwoofer (via an electronic crossover) cleans up the midrange, as well as going deeper in the bass, and can also play louder (within the limits of the horn).
Hi djk,
Could be a possibility.
There is also a phonic model MAX250 giving out 60 watts per channel at 8 ohms. These are really slim and would fit in the living easily but I can't find any reviews. Any suggestions?
I could bi-amp with these, and possibly buy a larger amp to drive a sub later in the year when finances permit.
Could be a possibility.
There is also a phonic model MAX250 giving out 60 watts per channel at 8 ohms. These are really slim and would fit in the living easily but I can't find any reviews. Any suggestions?
I could bi-amp with these, and possibly buy a larger amp to drive a sub later in the year when finances permit.
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