Real Men Don't Use Opamps - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Gallery Wiki Blogs Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th July 2008, 06:32 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: S. California
Default Real Man Don't Use Opamps

Op-amp has never been considered as an option for building true reference quality amplifiers. Discrete parts seems to be the way to go. You only use opamp for "cheap" amplifiers destined for the masses.

Am I mistaken or is there some truth in this?

Now we have a descrete opamp from Burson Audio of Australia and is sold by Parts Connexion.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/Index/burson.php
http://www.bursonaudio.com/

Their reason for designing a discrete opamp is to address the problems we have been trying to avoid.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 06:38 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
leadbelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Have you read any of the Blowtorch preamp thread? This was discussed ad nauseam fairly recently.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 06:48 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Default Re: Real Man Don't Use Opamps

Quote:
Originally posted by caesar148
Op-amp has never been considered as an option for building true reference quality amplifiers. Discrete parts seems to be the way to go. You only use opamp for "cheap" amplifiers destined for the masses.

Am I mistaken or is there some truth in this?

Now we have a descrete opamp from Burson Audio of Australia and is sold by Parts Connexion.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/Index/burson.php
http://www.bursonaudio.com/

Their reason for designing a discrete opamp is to address the problems we have been trying to avoid.

This reminds me of a book I bought a long time ago. It's title was "Real Men Use DOS".

Care must always be taken with the inevitable advance of technology when making generalizations. While it might be true that the very very best preamps are made with no op amps in the signal path, it is probably just as true that many very good preamps made with very good op amps are superior to many preamps made discretely. The only safe generalization is that generalizations are dangerous.

Cheers,
Bob
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 06:48 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
analog_sa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cascais
The Burson thingie looks quite ridiculous. Won't even comment on the price as it looks like it would cost ten bucks max to clone.

Has anyone actually heard it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 06:49 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Onvinyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Germany
Hi,
this is a DIY site, so how about posting the schematic (in case you have it, of course). It's really pointless to debate your point without some hard facts.

Regards,
Rüdiger
__________________
"I can feel what's going on inside a piece of electronic equipment. I have a sense that I know what's going on inside the transistors." Robert Moog
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 06:52 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Peter Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Send a message via AIM to Peter Daniel
Quote:
Originally posted by analog_sa
Has anyone actually heard it?
Nuuk did: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/hdams_e.html
__________________
www.audiosector.com
“Do something really well. See how much time it takes. It might be a product, a work of art, who knows? Then give it away cheaply, just because you feel that it should not cost so much, even if it took a lot of time and expensive materials to make it.” - JC
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 07:16 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
analog_sa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cascais
Thanks PD. Have read this before but completely forgotten. Nice review. Pretty much what i would have expected from a discrete opamp comparison especially taking into account that none of the tested opamps sound even remotely good IMO. The buffer review is more mystifying: no down side at all?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 08:19 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
I think that a system should be judged by how it performs. Simply having opamps in a circuit certainly should not mean that it is bad or will sound bad. Real men don't judge a circuit by its components; they judge it by its sound, using measurements as a tool to help quantify how good it sounds and as an indispensable aid during design and construction. This is of course just my opinion, so you don't have to agree.

Now, as for the Burson opamps... without performance measurements, you cannot truly judge how they perform (or even what they do!).
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 08:42 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
leadbelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Quote:
Originally posted by sparcnut
Now, as for the Burson opamps... without performance measurements, you cannot truly judge how they perform (or even what they do!).
And exactly which measurement or test are you referring to?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2008, 09:01 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally posted by leadbelly
And exactly which measurement or test are you referring to?
Everything - at the very least (in no particular order):
- input noise vs. frequency
- psrr vs. frequency
- cmrr vs. frequency
- closed-loop distortion with varying gain (inverting and non-inverting), loading, output voltage, and frequency (as spectral output, not single THD value) <--- probably the most important
- slew rate (just out of curiosity)
- unity-gain bandwidth
- phase margin / amount of ringing with varying capacitive load

Also would be nice:
- (very difficult/impossible on a real circuit) open-loop gain vs. frequency
- effect of source impedance on closed-loop distortion

And finally, complete telltale (although Burson wouldn't be happy about its publication):
- reverse engineered schematic
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Opamps Charlez Swap Meet 2 17th August 2008 11:45 AM
FS/WTT: Opamps seiko_citizen Swap Meet 0 20th October 2006 10:23 AM
FS: Power Chip OpAmps and other OpAmps & D to A Converter dtm1962 Swap Meet 4 12th January 2006 11:07 PM
15V for opamps from 35V ? jimbo1968 Power Supplies 17 28th June 2005 10:16 PM
Combing effects: How real in "real" rooms? smeade1079 Multi-Way 3 10th March 2003 01:32 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2016 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
Wiki