Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th July 2008, 05:38 AM   #41
snoopy is offline snoopy  Australia
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Quote:
Originally posted by john curl
This is just about marketing price, but where the Japanese and many others have failed is in making a piece of audio equipment that really sounds good. This is because of engineers not believing their ears, and only reading their meters. This is what separates good sound quality from bad sound quality, not engineering tricks.
Oh common John now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when you say stuff like that

I think you are being very disingenuous when you single out the Japanese audio equipment manufacturers as an example of market failure because they don't actually 'listen to their equipment'. How would you know anyway ??

There is a simple argument to counteract that fallacy. If something is designed to sound good then everyone should unanimously agree as to what equipment sounds the best. The mere fact that everyone owns and uses different audio equipment because of what they think sounds the best to them indicates that performance metric is an unreliable and unrealistic measure of evaluating equipment performance.

In other words what I am saying is that I don't give a toss what you think sounds good to you !! I'm not going to fork out wads of money and buy your gear just because you say it sounds good to you !!
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 05:58 AM   #42
diyAudio Member
 
john curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: berkeley ca
This is the difference between you and me. I keep audio products at any age that sound good. I use Japanese phono cartridges, and find them equal to anything in the world. What matters is the 'sound' of the product. Once in 1985 when giving a lecture in Japan, I was asked what phono cartridge I used. I said it was made by Nimiki, in Japan. The Japanese were surprised.
My Marantz tuner is vacuum tube and about 45 years old. My favorite portable radio is Telefunken made in 1967, designed in 1955, and is all germanium with both a drive and output transformer. My favorite projector TV is a Sony. My turntable is English, that I first bought in 1974. And I own an Acura and an older Porsche. I could care less where anything is made or what time period. It just has to sound good. Sounding good usually alludes design engineers that don't know the tradeoffs that I CONSTANTLY talk about, and least when I am allowed to, on this website.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 06:07 AM   #43
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Taiwan
diyAudio Member
 
Bonsai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
I don't much care for Naim equipment and when I look at their circuits, to be honest they look rather dated (Self type blameless, quasi complementary etc). But, JC is correct in his assertion that Julian Vereker marketed Naim very well - and its still around today - now they are doing the sound system for Bentley cars I heard)

In this game (as in many others) branding is everything and I think over the last 20 years or so, the industry has 'disaggregated' into lots of small niche players who build a certain loyal following with each and every customer claiming that their favourite brand is best.

And, as a marketing guy, I think thats wonderful - it means you don't end up with a market full off me too products sold on cost and spec (i.e. lowest common denominator) - everyone has their niche. Sure, the customer pays for it, but thats par for the course with a branded luxury item. BTW, I am not talking here about those trashy hi-fi component systems you can buy at BIC Camera here in Tokyo for about $800 (you know, use a dual 50W class D amp IC etc)

Some examples: Sugden (some guy told me they build about 10 amps a month)
Boulder (how do they survive charging so much!)
Luxman (fantastic stuff - my buddy justs\ spent about $8k on one of their amps here in Akhihibara))
T&A (from Germany)
MBL (also from Germany)
47 Labs (guy runs his business out of a shed in his back yard here in Tokyo I heard)
Lyra
Karan (rave reviews, Karan claiming class A - when tested, definitly class B and c. 1% distortion!)
. . . . .

The art of branding - long may it continue!
__________________
bonsai
Amplifier Design and Construction for MUSIC! http://hifisonix.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 06:26 AM   #44
snoopy is offline snoopy  Australia
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Quote:
Originally posted by Bonsai
I don't much care for Naim equipment and when I look at their circuits, to be honest they look rather dated (Self type blameless, quasi complementary etc). But, JC is correct in his assertion that Julian Vereker marketed Naim very well - and its still around today - now they are doing the sound system for Bentley cars I heard)
Naim NAP140 revised circuit Oh my god how much worse was the original unrevised circuit Butler you have made my day you have LOL

Click the image to open in full size.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 08:20 AM   #45
diyAudio Member
 
john curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: berkeley ca
It looks OK to me, better than some.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 09:21 AM   #46
VivaVee is online now VivaVee  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Auckland, NZ
That circuit bears a passing resemblance to the original Naim circuit. No more than that.

The Naim's sold because the sound appealed in a way that the competition didn't. They still do.

Perhaps if the Japanese amps of the day had presented their 'superior' circuits without the myriad of internal connectors and sub-assemblies they may have garnered more audiophile attention. It was (and still is) not unusual to see such power amplifiers consisting of a dozen or more circuit boards interconnected by individual wire harnesses traversing the internal space.

In the intervening years the concept of keeping it simple (but no simpler than necessary, to quote Einstein) has got a little bit more attention. In this thread for example.
__________________
Alan
Hope is not a reliable design discipline
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 10:02 AM   #47
zinsula is offline zinsula  Switzerland
diyAudio Member
 
zinsula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
In other words what I am saying is that I don't give a toss what you think sounds good to you !! I'm not going to fork out wads of money and buy your gear just because you say it sounds good to you !!
OK and what are you doing here in this thread?
Who said you have to listen to John?
Couldn't all you who are not agreeing with John and his attitude just leave this thread?
We are all grown up, we do not need "customer protection lawyers".

Tino
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 10:08 AM   #48
Account disabled at member's request
 
Join Date: May 2006
That is a rather simple and outdated circuit, i built it some months back, just on veroboard, a lot of members here said it sounded good, had to listen for myself. Built it using modern semiconductors, and i agree with them, this simple outdated Self based circuit does sound rather good, no stabilty problems. A lot has to do with that little rc circuit at input into driver output transistors. What can i say, wish i had one of these back in the 80s rather than my hitech pioneer.

Equipment used for testing was Marantz cd17 KI cd player, BW 804 speakers, Reference amps Electrocompaniet Nemo, electrocompaniet AW250, pioneer x400, Modified Rotel Ra 971, modified Self blameless amp.

Alex
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 01:38 PM   #49
snoopy is offline snoopy  Australia
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Quote:
Originally posted by VivaVee
That circuit bears a passing resemblance to the original Naim circuit. No more than that.

The Naim's sold because the sound appealed in a way that the competition didn't. They still do.

Perhaps if the Japanese amps of the day had presented their 'superior' circuits without the myriad of internal connectors and sub-assemblies they may have garnered more audiophile attention. It was (and still is) not unusual to see such power amplifiers consisting of a dozen or more circuit boards interconnected by individual wire harnesses traversing the internal space.

In the intervening years the concept of keeping it simple (but no simpler than necessary, to quote Einstein) has got a little bit more attention. In this thread for example.
There is plenty of pommy audio gear which is wired like that as well with nice looking squared off wiring looms !! I hardly think the wiring loom would be a major issue to performance if it was properly thought out.

I've got a Japanese preamp and it is all layed out on one board. Somehow you'd still find fault with that in comparison to the simpletons circuit
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2008, 01:46 PM   #50
snoopy is offline snoopy  Australia
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Quote:
Originally posted by zinsula

OK and what are you doing here in this thread?
Who said you have to listen to John?
Couldn't all you who are not agreeing with John and his attitude just leave this thread?
We are all grown up, we do not need "customer protection lawyers".

Tino
So is this thread just a John Curl fan club

So much for free speech and difference of opinions
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:46 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2