
Home  Forums  Rules  Articles  The diyAudio Store  Gallery  Blogs  Register  Donations  FAQ  Calendar  Search  Today's Posts  Mark Forums Read  Search 
Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification. 

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.
Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving 

Thread Tools  Search this Thread 
6th May 2008, 08:26 PM  #1 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Sep 2005

Confusion: NFB, OLG, Unity Gain
Hi,
I don’t know how to phrase this question but maybe someone can help me. I have been doing some reading through Mr. D. Self’s books and it brought me to a point where I am confused when it comes to negative feedback. Components C4, R10 and R11 from image2.pdf form the negative feedback. If we for a moment forget about C4 and the 3dB low pass rolloff point then the resistor components calculates to 30.4 dB. What do we call this value? Is this the negative feedback factor, ratio ...? From what I have read it is best to choose an amount of xdB of NFB at 20 kHz to ensure stability. I have also learned that once open loop gain has reached P1 it falls with 6dB/octave when standard milliard compensation is used and the same goes for the NFB available. For me to get the xdB NFB available at 20 kHz do I subtract the open loop gain at that specific frequency from the calculate component value as set above to get the available NFB at that frequency. Image3.pdf is my calculations and image1.pdf is the ouput(top green), phase shift(bottom green), open loop gain(top red) and resistor calculation(top blue) for my design so far. When we talk about unity gain, when does this occur based on the simulation? Is this when open loop gain reaches the resistors calculated value? If the questions are unclear please indicate. Any assistance will be appreciated or reference to a threat or site. Thanks CorrieB 
7th May 2008, 06:47 PM  #2 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Avalon Island

The 2 resistors set the circuit closed loop gain
everything beyond the 30.4dB is then feedback. If there is 130.4 dB OLG an 30.4 Closed LG, then 130.430.4=100dB feeedback.
__________________
Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean no one can. 
7th May 2008, 07:40 PM  #3  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK

Hi,
The resistors set the closed loop gain. As Self states there is no fixed level of feedback. Quote:
gain attenuates the output by that amount at the inverting input. So the open loop gain has to be lower than the closed loop gain before the phase hits 180 degrees. The higher the closed loop gain the less feedback there is and higher open loop bandwidth can be used. For a unity gain buffer you really have to slug the amplifier, as the inverting input is at the output. For fast opamps to be used at reasonable gains it is undesirable that they are unity gain stable, because at higher gains they will be overcompensated. Selfs level of feedback at 20KHz comes from equation 2 and is a rule of thumb in essence for typical output stages. In reality varying the feedback factor at 20Khz for a given closed loop gain is also moving the "unity gain" point. /sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory  Ludwig Boltzmann When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail  Abraham Maslow 

8th May 2008, 01:17 PM  #4 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders

Hi,
I'm going to take you a little further than you asked. Let's interpret your gain and phase plots. The OLG becomes 0dB @ 10MHz. The phase is about 170 to 175 degrees @ 10MHz. the phase margin is 180  170 = 10degrees at best. Adding a tiny bit of capacitance to this amp will make it into an oscillator. It will probably ring quite badly into a resistive load with a 5 to 10 degree phase margin. Most recommend at least 45degrees of phase margin for good characteristics. However, even with an adequate phase margin, this will change when a reactive load or cables are added to the amp. You now need to compensate the amplifier to retain the near 45degree phase margin into a wide variety of reactive loads. Some recommend 60degrees of phase margin but this can cut off transients and make the amp sound too smooth. This often happens when an inductive load is applied to the output of a poorly compensated amplifier. So firstly. change the amp gain and phase to obtain an adequate phase margin at an open loop 0dB gain. Then, do the difficult part. Compensate the amp to be tolerant to reactive loading.
__________________
regards Andrew T. 
8th May 2008, 02:22 PM  #5  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK

Quote:
Completely wrong. It is conservatively overcompensated. Gain margin is ~ 25dB and phase margin ~ 130 degrees. /sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory  Ludwig Boltzmann When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail  Abraham Maslow 

8th May 2008, 02:24 PM  #6  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders

Quote:
Am I looking at the wrong plot/graph?
__________________
regards Andrew T. 

8th May 2008, 02:32 PM  #7 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK

Hi, Gain is set at 30dB, not unity, /sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory  Ludwig Boltzmann When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail  Abraham Maslow 
8th May 2008, 02:37 PM  #8  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders

Ignore your byline for a moment and indulge me.
Why can't I see what you're getting at? A more detailed explanation may help me understand. Quote:
Does my case only apply when unity gain is required?
__________________
regards Andrew T. 

8th May 2008, 03:00 PM  #9  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK

Quote:
Yes. The higher the stage gain the less feedback there is. e.g. a NE5534 opamp is stable for gains > 3, but not unity. /sreten.
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory  Ludwig Boltzmann When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail  Abraham Maslow 

8th May 2008, 03:09 PM  #10 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scottish Borders

Hi Corri,
sorry. I hope we both learned something.
__________________
regards Andrew T. 
Thread Tools  Search this Thread 


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
opamps used for unity gain  HiFiNutNut  Solid State  25  12th April 2011 03:34 PM 
Heretical Unity Gain line stage PLUS a little gain ?  yagas  Tubes / Valves  7  24th January 2006 02:30 PM 
Unity Gain (AV=1) Zen Amp  LS  Pass Labs  2  16th September 2004 05:40 AM 
Unity Gain Operation (or low gain)  Tomo  Chip Amps  12  22nd January 2004 02:47 AM 
New To Site?  Need Help? 