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Old 18th January 2013, 11:50 AM   #131
marce is online now marce  United Kingdom
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Holmes81, no there are not, there is no such thing as a no clean flux for high reliablity, I do high reliability PCB's for a number of different customers and ALL assemblies are cleaned to remove all flux residue, especially if they are going to have a conformal coating, they cannot take the chance of not cleaning the assemblies. But then most of these designs are designed for a tine/lead solder process.
But all the IPC class 3 designs I work on, have specified a cleaning process where flux residue is removed.
I have seen problems with no clean fluxes that were not cleaned off assemblies, again in hot high humidity situations.
Some more views:
Problem With No Clean Solder Flux Residue

To much copper in solder actually is a big problem as it leads to brittle joints.Some info in here also some good info on bad joint formation:
http://extra.ivf.se/eqs/dokument/7%20pet6005.pdf

Last edited by marce; 18th January 2013 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 18th January 2013, 02:11 PM   #132
GoatGuy is offline GoatGuy  United States
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OMG... solder fetish.

I'm ... just jaw agape. There's a treatise up there about *** with 3, 4, 5 different treatments for venerable RCA cables as a "testbed" for **** solder performance. Yet... underlying the studious (and we must assume, honorable) advice ... is, well, crap: one does NOT make RCA cables out of twisted pair!

Please folks... GET A GRIP. No matter what you think about the "performance" of tiny bits of silver, or gold, or platinum (or lead) in your solder ... NONE of that is going to make a material difference in a properly prepared metal-to-metal soldered connection! Not one iota of the advice to make multiple connections, and then sit back and somehow "listen to them" makes shyt for difference.

Why?

BECAUSE of the "perception of difference" (when none exists) factor. 15, oh, 20 years ago I did an expensive and big A:B:C:E:F:G... test of just this thing - super-duper high end cables, middling cables, pretty-much-junk cables (but not really junk), and so on, between a really superior vinyl player and a top-shelf preamp, amplifier and speaker system. I had over 2 dozen people participate, from ordinary Joe's to people who I had argued interminally over the years about whether they could "hear shyte" of this nature. Proud, well heeled, and quite opinionated.

They were shown the setup - a multiway switch setup, lots of cables hooked up ... and they were themselves free to switch either the cables around, or the switch on the switchbox ... to gang-in whatever cable they wanted. The music source was their preference as well. Each person was given up to 1 hour to make notes, and write down their findings.

However, nephariously, the switchbox did no switching. Oh, it "broke the connection" so there was the usual switching noise. Only that not one of the cables was used.

Guess what! 100% of the "observers" found differences between the switch-positions. Some of them wrote truly eloquent reports about the increased presence, separation of instruments, delicacy and "accuracy" of the sound-stage. All the usually trotted-out words that are used in the audiophile industry were liberally applied, or their opposites (for the mechanically "bad" cables).

Yet, the same damned cable was used, through-out.

Truly, I was ... stunned. I was left with the fundamental understanding that people WILL FIND DIFFERENCES WHEN NONE EXIST. And, when they're convinced there are differences, they'll nearly COME TO BLOWS to defend their position, using increasingly arcane language to defend their stance, to offend the up-comers.

Which, of course, is ****.

Sometime, everyone should watch Penn & Teller, specifically their expose about "bottled water". Its real, folks. Perception trumps ... reality.

GoatGuy

PS: just solder things with competent, modestly expensive (or inexpensive) solder. Puhleeze... don't fall for the hype. 100 years of competent service... tin-lead eutectic or ANY other eutectic solder ... is just fine. Arrrrggghhhh!!!.....
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Old 18th January 2013, 02:22 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarr View Post

I suggest using really simple twisted-pair solid-core RCA cables, with the cheap types of RCA connectors that are available in multiple colors.
After measuring the distortion of solder joints I also measured cables. They created hundreds of times more distortion than the solder joints.

If you prepare all of the solders the same and get similar looking joints you are not getting the best joints for each type of solder.

The break in the cable will cause a measurable discontinuity. The skill in the repair will affect the cable's performance. All of this can be measured.

ES
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Old 18th January 2013, 02:26 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post

Guess what! 100% of the "observers" found differences between the switch-positions.
When doing measurements it becomes clear switches have more distortion than good cables. (And some really cheap ones also.)

I have some very nice silver plated Lorlin switches that most folks can identify the switch positions. Doesn't really matter if they are all wired the same.

The problem in setting up a test is to be sure you are actually testing what you think you are.
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Old 18th January 2013, 03:32 PM   #135
GoatGuy is offline GoatGuy  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
When doing measurements it becomes clear switches have more distortion than good cables. (And some really cheap ones also.)

I have some very nice silver plated Lorlin switches that most folks can identify the switch positions. Doesn't really matter if they are all wired the same.

The problem in setting up a test is to be sure you are actually testing what you think you are.
You really missed it... The switch was NOT involved in the signal path at all.

Sorry, but "cable fetish" is just bullsnot of the highest order. Same as solder fetish. Same as optical cable fetish. Same as point-on-pad-on-floor mounted speakers. Its all bongwater and mental delusions...

[PS: I also did another test a few years later with a switchbox, having magnificent US Military rotary switches, that "lied" about which port was serving which purpose. In other words, "A" was "D", ... "B" was "F", "C" was "A" an so on...

guess what. Predictably, those 'in the know' waxed eloquently about the really, really expensive cables connected to switch position "C" ... but they were listening to the "premium Radio Shack" cable on "A"... which, of course in position "A" they downgraded to being "merely a cable, and full of errors in soundstage presence and acuity".

Bongwater, bud. Horsegak. Woodchuck chips. Cow pies. Get over it...

GoatGuy
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Old 18th January 2013, 03:45 PM   #136
ilimzn is offline ilimzn  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
The encouragement in some earlier posts to resolder joints ought to have been accompanied with a newbie warning
As one that has encouraged the said practice, I should say that I completely agree. If you don't know how to solder properly, of course you do not know how to re-solder either. In fact, re-soldering has notable differences WRT soldering as well and some techniques, especially on old parts and PCBs are not at all trivial. As Telstar said, you can damage the PCB and not only due to overheating - in fact if one is experienced, that is unlikely. However, various problems with the PCB base material like flux or moisture leaching into it may lead to destroyed traces when de- and re-soldering is attempted. So, this is not for the inexperienced.
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Old 18th January 2013, 03:58 PM   #137
ilimzn is offline ilimzn  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
OMG... solder fetish.
I'm ... just jaw agape...
Please folks... GET A GRIP... Not one iota of the advice to make multiple connections, and then sit back and somehow "listen to them" makes *** for difference. Why? BECAUSE of the "perception of difference" (when none exists) factor.
THANK YOU for posting this.
I can't tell you how many times I've done this trick in various ways and it never stops surprising me what people think they hear.

I remember making two pairs of interconnect cables, the only difference being I used some 'snake skin'
tubing over the cables on one pair, nice shiny blue affair, too. A friend came by and asked if I could lend him a pair of interconnects and I gave him the non-snake skin one. Some time later he returned them and asked if I had something better, at which point I gave him the snake skin one, taking the oportunity to add the snake skin to the other pair. Well, a few days later i learned that the snake skin one is tryly excellent, much better then the other one

Another funny story, an 'inverted' version of the same phenomenon - a guy I know had a small HiFi shop and would trade and sell various equipment. One such was a well known hybrid amp which name I will strategically fail to mention which uses ECC86 tubes in the front end. These would often get replaced by ECC88/6DJ8 and various versions 'for sound improvement'. I'd often go there and have a chat with the guy while listening to some interesting piece of equipment, after I got back from a big local 'dump' where I'd often fond interesting bits of electronics to recycle (ah, the good old days...). Anyhow, my friend was waxing lyrical about the sonic merits of having put some ECC88s into said amp. While he was gone to get some beverages from a local caffe, I pulled out two PCC88s I salvaged from 30+ yer old tube based TV sets, from the tuner section. Both were original to the sets and quite obviously never replaced, well used and were not even from the same manufacturer - and replaced the tubes in said amp, and... waited. Well, we talked for a better part of an hour after that while listening to music in the background from said amp, and at that point my freind concluded he really liked the improvement in the amp's sound. well, then I gave him his tubes and told him to keep the old ones I 'recycled'
The point being, if I didn't tell him, he would have never noticed. But imagine what amazing differences and nuances I would have listened about if I had told him...

Last edited by ilimzn; 18th January 2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:31 PM   #138
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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This tells a lot of things... No, not a lot, but things between the lines not many can see...
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:41 PM   #139
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Yes, this phenomenon of psycho-acoustics is very powerful and hard to not be subject to it, if we ever could.
__________________
"The total harmonic distortion is not a measure of the degree of distastefulness to the listener and it is recommended that its use should be discontinued." D. Masa, 1938
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:46 PM   #140
5daudio is offline 5daudio  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
You really missed it... The switch was NOT involved in the signal path at all.

Sorry, but "cable fetish" is just bullsnot of the highest order. Same as solder fetish. Same as optical cable fetish. Same as point-on-pad-on-floor mounted speakers. Its all bongwater and mental delusions...

[PS: I also did another test a few years later with a switchbox, having magnificent US Military rotary switches, that "lied" about which port was serving which purpose. In other words, "A" was "D", ... "B" was "F", "C" was "A" an so on...

guess what. Predictably, those 'in the know' waxed eloquently about the really, really expensive cables connected to switch position "C" ... but they were listening to the "premium Radio Shack" cable on "A"... which, of course in position "A" they downgraded to being "merely a cable, and full of errors in soundstage presence and acuity".

Bongwater, bud. Horsegak. Woodchuck chips. Cow pies. Get over it...

GoatGuy
i cannot post what i wanted to say so i will just say thank you for your insight and get back to enjoying my music
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