Lead vs. Silver solder - Page 10 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th January 2013, 10:01 PM   #91
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
Well,

This issue has restarted, so let me mention I have measured the difference in the distortion produced by solder joints using different kinds of solder.

Now most of the lead free solders used for electronics have higher melting points. So if you are not using a variable temperature iron, it will not work quite as well for you. Second issue with lead free solders is that they do not flow as well. So the fillets are sharper. This means to produce a nice looking joint you should use less solder per joint.

Then there is eutectic solder either 63/37 or some variant with other metals, these are probably the best choice as they are much less likely to produce cold solder joints.

The other big issue is clean, clean, clean. If the parts are old and oxidized they will not form good solder joints. Some parts are actually shipped with special packaging to make sure they are not degraded before installation. I have had surface mount parts fall off because the proper procedures were not followed. (They required a liquid flux.)

That brings up the issue of solid or rosin core solder. As you must use a flux rosin core is just about the universal choice. I do use solid solder in my solder pot, so parts are first dipped in liquid flux. They just won't solder properly without it.

Also very important is to keep the tip of your soldering iron clean. The flux will build up on it, slowly burn and generally make a mess.

Now if you take a piece of gear and resolder all of the joints, particularly the through plated holes with a good audiophile grade of solder, you quite likely will hear an improvement. I have measured this.

As to the distortion measurements on solders, doing a loop with hundreds of joints the best solder was to the limits of the test (-180 db or so!) the same as the worst. (After getting proper joints with all the variations.)

The reason why resoldering a piece of gear works is that the through plated holes are just not very good. So you will get the same improvement even with ordinary solder.

ES

PS SY on general principles I just have to disagree with you, so could you post something silly?

Last edited by simon7000; 17th January 2013 at 10:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 10:29 PM   #92
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
PS SY on general principles I just have to disagree with you, so could you post something silly?
NE is going to win the AFC Championship.

There, I couldn't think of anything sillier.

And here's a plug:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 44_Global_(14Jun07).pdf (39.4 KB, 46 views)
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 11:02 PM   #93
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
Well maybe we could argue about solder diameter. I keep .01" and .05" on my bench. The thin stuff works well on PC Cards with 1/4 watt resistors and smaller. The thick stuff works great on connectors. Either works for TO220's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 11:28 PM   #94
diyAudio Member
 
boywonder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: So.Cal.
Default Plastic tits

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Radio Shack 2% silver. Way cheaper, works perfectly. For straight 60/40, there's Kester (but conflict of interest for me, that's part of our company).
What are you working on these days? Sounds like you are no longer tackling the elimination of estrogen mimics in plastic.....and traded Austin for Chicago.......
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 11:35 PM   #95
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Got an offer I couldn't refuse from a big company that gave me some stability, so I didn't refuse. Surprisingly, they've treated me great. I'm doing more classical wet chemistry these days, with an emphasis on chemicals for manufacturing (metalworking, rubber, and composite industries).

Yeah, I miss the music in Austin (as well as my great musician and audio friends). A lot. Nice jazz scene here, though, and I can't complain about the food!
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 11:37 PM   #96
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Bigun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I can't complain about the food!
Chicago Chop Shop - one of my favourites
__________________
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." Robert M Pirsig.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2013, 11:40 PM   #97
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
I'm a lifelong vegetarian, so it's wasted on me.
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 12:33 AM   #98
ilimzn is offline ilimzn  Croatia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zagreb
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeppy2033 View Post
In addition and in pro of silver solder,

Clearly the reason of a better sound after re-solder with Sn97% Ag3% lies in the presence of silver in the solder alloy, providing a faster conduction, which in most cases result in an equivalent to a direct connection between the termineals of the components involved, resulting this welds as a single piece, rather than a sum of delays caused by each weld made with 60/40 standard solder, as the case of several elements in series present in a given audio path.
And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

There is not a single electronics component in use that has less than at least a cuple of (kinds of) metalurgical joints formed out of various materials.
Soldering is not the same as welding. Welding is usually done between two parts of material type A with material type A - and EVEN THEN strictly speaking it's not a single piece, metalurgicaly. Soldering is done between parts of meterial A and B with meterial C, although A and B may be the same in some cases. It's not the same. There are some processes that do have characteristics of both a weld and a solder joint.
Also, please avoid inventing terminology such as 'speed of conduction' without checking possible meanings and implications. If your amplifier sounds better due to the 'increased speed of conduction', why don't you then replace all resistors with pieces of silver, and get even higher speed of conduction, or is it a case where 'too high conduction speed' might leas to electrons flying put of cunductors in curved leads?

That being said, after rebuilding countless examples of vintage audio electronics, these devices CAN and indeed often do sound better after a resolder, and that's best done with the same type or at least closely compatible type of solder as originally used (there are cases where it's prudent to use different types but this would really fall under the category of 'fixing a design flaw'). This is because a number of cold joints have been fixed! Often the joint itself is incidental in the whole story - some components used lead or surface treatment that in the long run proved to be problematic, these can form cold joints that look perfect even under high magnification as it's not the actual solder joint that has the damage but the soldered surface of the component pin. Another common problem (especially with older PCBs) is the flux used, which can be displaced by the new flux used to resolder the joints (although a better idea is to carefully remove the old solder and clean the board thoroughly if one suspects a problem case, then resolder and again clean).
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 12:41 AM   #99
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Fosser, Aurskog-Holand, Akershus, Norway.
Correct ilimzn¨
Most vintage amps sound better after resoldering.
And this is regardless of what type solder one uses.
Actually the lead in the good old solder is the main factor making all those "dry solderjoints" we often see as tiny grey lines around the component leg.

And there is a issue, this about residues of the old flux. So Your point about carefulle cleaning the pcb for the olod solder and flux is indeed a very good one.

Solder or not to Solder, thats the question.
(At least it was in the late seventies )
__________________
Sooner or later you end up with TANDBERG
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2013, 12:51 AM   #100
ilimzn is offline ilimzn  Croatia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zagreb
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
The reason why resoldering a piece of gear works is that the through plated holes are just not very good. So you will get the same improvement even with ordinary solder.
Precisely - the solder should be a binder and not a bridge between the component pins and conductive pads - i.e. the solder actually is so thin that it's resistance is a very minor contribution - and all of this relies on the joint actually being properly established.
One reason why lead-free fails more often is mechanical, it's more brittle. This is especially a problem with SMD, as boards DO bend (thermal dilation), with through-holes the component is held mechanically in place so it will at least stay there even with a bad joint.
There are instances when solder can make a big difference and these are found either in cases of metalurgical incompatibility (aforementioned silver plated leads, surfaces, tracks MUST be soldered with silver bearing solder), thermal cycling and vibration can be an issue (weld cracking due to the character of the joint depending on joined materials - NOT to be confused with solder melting point issues!), and in rare cases where galvanic potential is a problem.

The 'non problems' like lead solder in a world where ech car still has tens of pounds of lead in each battery (the amount of solder one would make out of all that lead and amount of scrap electronics one battery equates to can be a nice 'calculate on a napkin' style exercise ), and mercury inside a CCFL when you can go to every drugstore and buy a mercury thermometer (with enough mercury for perhaps a hundred CCFLs in it...) are not truly worth discussing, except perhaps in light of reliability reports of non-lead soldered electronics. So, removing the lead hoping to impact the environment less, will produce more failed (and of course 'not economical to repair) electronics to be throuw into the same environment. Yes, that was really clever.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lead Free Solder Recommendations and Procedures mhconley Construction Tips 7 19th June 2009 06:04 AM
3.5% silver solder sangram Everything Else 2 24th February 2006 09:29 AM
Lead free solder bigwill Equipment & Tools 11 12th May 2005 05:30 AM
Lead Free Solder Mike Gergen Parts 12 24th September 2004 04:41 PM
Lead free solder djmiddelkoop Parts 13 24th January 2004 05:52 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:17 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2