... Put new electrolytics in it!!
Ok guys, I haven't been on the board for quite awhile but I have been busy learning the hard way that you cannot 'refresh' old equipment.
I know this is a bit of a tirade, but my frustration is at red-line levels at this point, and I have wasted a considerable sum of money on apparently worthless capacitors.
My situation is this:
I am an original owner of a Hafler XL-280 amp and DH110 pre with a set of Magnepans. Over the years, I noticed the sound seemed to harshen and the deepest bass gradually disappeared.
I have never heard better sound than my old system, so, being poor, I decided to 'recap' my amp and then my preamp to return them to original spec.
Big mistake.
I would just like to say at this point that there is something seriously wrong with today's electrolytics - they sound like ****! My original caps were cheap IC (Illinois Capacitor) caps, but were apparently significantly higher quality than todays caps.
Really, I'm not kidding here, it went like this -
XL-280 replacement history:
Tried XICON, Nichicon, Panasonic, and UCC caps.
1st try: XICON HTRL (Hi-Temp) 100uF/100V for the rails
with a Nichicon 6.3V/1000uF BP cap for the LFC
This actually sounded most like the original equipment so far, with cheapo XICONS!
2nd try: XICON ESRL (Low ESR) 100uF/100V for the rails
with the Nichicon Bi-Polar.
Sounded Ok, but not as good as the original IC caps.
3rd try: Panasonic FC 100uF/100V for rails
with a Panasonic SU Bi-Polar for the 6.3/1000
This sounded BAD, really just horrible. I was worried I had fried something it sounded so bad. My imaging was all gone, no 3D spatial effects, flat high end.
4th try: UCC KZE (motherboard caps) 100uF/100V for the rails
with Nichicon BP
This is where I'm at now, and it is volumes better than the Panasonic FC/SU combo. I have learned that the Panasonic SU series are lousy Bi-Polars and it really shows!
I still don't like the sound as much as the original IC caps.
How I ruined my DH110 -
Well, at least I saved the old caps for my 110!
I changed ONLY the power supply filter caps in my 110 - and now it sounds like garbage.
Power supply caps used were brand new Panasonic FM 50V/1000uF and 50V/22uF from Digikey.
Rail caps used were
ELNA SILMIC II 25V/470uF audio caps (not cheap).
CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY MY EQUIPMENT SOUNDS LIKE GARBAGE?
Is this because ELNAs are meant for signal use, not power supply? The bass is completely gone and the highs are flat (and this is through my headphones, not my amp/speakers). Can I get my bass back with FM caps for the 25V/470uF rail caps?
Or do I just go put my 20 year old caps back in?
Ok guys, I haven't been on the board for quite awhile but I have been busy learning the hard way that you cannot 'refresh' old equipment.
I know this is a bit of a tirade, but my frustration is at red-line levels at this point, and I have wasted a considerable sum of money on apparently worthless capacitors.
My situation is this:
I am an original owner of a Hafler XL-280 amp and DH110 pre with a set of Magnepans. Over the years, I noticed the sound seemed to harshen and the deepest bass gradually disappeared.
I have never heard better sound than my old system, so, being poor, I decided to 'recap' my amp and then my preamp to return them to original spec.
Big mistake.
I would just like to say at this point that there is something seriously wrong with today's electrolytics - they sound like ****! My original caps were cheap IC (Illinois Capacitor) caps, but were apparently significantly higher quality than todays caps.
Really, I'm not kidding here, it went like this -
XL-280 replacement history:
Tried XICON, Nichicon, Panasonic, and UCC caps.
1st try: XICON HTRL (Hi-Temp) 100uF/100V for the rails
with a Nichicon 6.3V/1000uF BP cap for the LFC
This actually sounded most like the original equipment so far, with cheapo XICONS!
2nd try: XICON ESRL (Low ESR) 100uF/100V for the rails
with the Nichicon Bi-Polar.
Sounded Ok, but not as good as the original IC caps.
3rd try: Panasonic FC 100uF/100V for rails
with a Panasonic SU Bi-Polar for the 6.3/1000
This sounded BAD, really just horrible. I was worried I had fried something it sounded so bad. My imaging was all gone, no 3D spatial effects, flat high end.
4th try: UCC KZE (motherboard caps) 100uF/100V for the rails
with Nichicon BP
This is where I'm at now, and it is volumes better than the Panasonic FC/SU combo. I have learned that the Panasonic SU series are lousy Bi-Polars and it really shows!
I still don't like the sound as much as the original IC caps.
How I ruined my DH110 -
Well, at least I saved the old caps for my 110!
I changed ONLY the power supply filter caps in my 110 - and now it sounds like garbage.
Power supply caps used were brand new Panasonic FM 50V/1000uF and 50V/22uF from Digikey.
Rail caps used were
ELNA SILMIC II 25V/470uF audio caps (not cheap).
CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY MY EQUIPMENT SOUNDS LIKE GARBAGE?
Is this because ELNAs are meant for signal use, not power supply? The bass is completely gone and the highs are flat (and this is through my headphones, not my amp/speakers). Can I get my bass back with FM caps for the 25V/470uF rail caps?
Or do I just go put my 20 year old caps back in?
It is very possible that you are being fooled by your speakers
They suffer much more from agging effect.
Also, now a days you are older, your ears have changed a lot.... i found a ball of wax inside left ear because of my "cottonete, by Johnson and Johnson" daily use (pushing was to go inside and be transformed into a ball).
Speakers dries.... and contracts...one side more than the other...contraction i mean...opposite to expansion (my english..sorry)... the coil touches the magnet frame... some harshing sound comes from there...dinamic harshing sound...you will listen during music.... pushing and pulling speaker with your hands, without magnetic force actuating there will not be the same effect to test it...try sinusoidal subsonic tones to listen the damn noises old speakers use to make.
Also, it is possible that your home changed, your carpet is other, your furniture too...and also your speaker enclosure and drivers can be others too...you may know that....i am just thinking about and asking you to check those things.
The last and worst thing is your own position in front of that experimentation...what was you specting...your spectations will affect the result of your own evaluation...you are human, have a brain, will....you decide things, and some of them in advance..... if you was almost sure it would result bad..for sure you will perceive the result as bad...if you was waiting good results, for sure you were prepared to listen good results...if your spectations result inverted...then you can believe (more) in your own evaluation...if inside your spectations...your half rigth side of the brain may be fooling your left brain side...hehehe..this happens my friend.
Have switches to clean?
Do you have oxide into the speaker terminal...the amplifier output posts...connectors?
Maybe you used to listen Vinyl..and now a day listening CDs....for sure your sound will be worst than the past .... Vinyl sound much better...that damn thing called CD, if not oversampled, if not using a better, and external, digital do analog converter, sound worst than Vinyl...with the scratches, wow and flutter, humble, sub sonics tones and so on..... even with the noises...you feel better sonics.
I am not saying that you are wrong....it is possible that old condensers..... i can remember the Cherry ones...paper and oil....well....maybe..... but other things can influence too.
I told you some...other folks can complete my list with several other possibilities.
Do not be mad with me..... i have just the idea that we fool ourselves all time long... i have studied psychology and i have some idea of those things.
regards,
Carlos
They suffer much more from agging effect.
Also, now a days you are older, your ears have changed a lot.... i found a ball of wax inside left ear because of my "cottonete, by Johnson and Johnson" daily use (pushing was to go inside and be transformed into a ball).
Speakers dries.... and contracts...one side more than the other...contraction i mean...opposite to expansion (my english..sorry)... the coil touches the magnet frame... some harshing sound comes from there...dinamic harshing sound...you will listen during music.... pushing and pulling speaker with your hands, without magnetic force actuating there will not be the same effect to test it...try sinusoidal subsonic tones to listen the damn noises old speakers use to make.
Also, it is possible that your home changed, your carpet is other, your furniture too...and also your speaker enclosure and drivers can be others too...you may know that....i am just thinking about and asking you to check those things.
The last and worst thing is your own position in front of that experimentation...what was you specting...your spectations will affect the result of your own evaluation...you are human, have a brain, will....you decide things, and some of them in advance..... if you was almost sure it would result bad..for sure you will perceive the result as bad...if you was waiting good results, for sure you were prepared to listen good results...if your spectations result inverted...then you can believe (more) in your own evaluation...if inside your spectations...your half rigth side of the brain may be fooling your left brain side...hehehe..this happens my friend.
Have switches to clean?
Do you have oxide into the speaker terminal...the amplifier output posts...connectors?
Maybe you used to listen Vinyl..and now a day listening CDs....for sure your sound will be worst than the past .... Vinyl sound much better...that damn thing called CD, if not oversampled, if not using a better, and external, digital do analog converter, sound worst than Vinyl...with the scratches, wow and flutter, humble, sub sonics tones and so on..... even with the noises...you feel better sonics.
I am not saying that you are wrong....it is possible that old condensers..... i can remember the Cherry ones...paper and oil....well....maybe..... but other things can influence too.
I told you some...other folks can complete my list with several other possibilities.
Do not be mad with me..... i have just the idea that we fool ourselves all time long... i have studied psychology and i have some idea of those things.
regards,
Carlos
Hi analog_sa!
I have considered the 'break-in' possibility, especially with the SILMIC IIs. I am listening to the 110 right now and I will post anything I hear in the future.
I have only found/used Roederstein film caps, not electros. Roederstein makes a great .01uF X2 PP cap.
With Mouser and Digi-key being my sources, I am limited to what they carry.
Anyone else care to comment on the possibly 'magic' IC caps!!
By the way, every single one of the 8 470uF IC caps in my 110 tested 480uF+ after 20 years, like I said, I may just put them back.
I have considered the 'break-in' possibility, especially with the SILMIC IIs. I am listening to the 110 right now and I will post anything I hear in the future.
I have only found/used Roederstein film caps, not electros. Roederstein makes a great .01uF X2 PP cap.
With Mouser and Digi-key being my sources, I am limited to what they carry.
Anyone else care to comment on the possibly 'magic' IC caps!!
By the way, every single one of the 8 470uF IC caps in my 110 tested 480uF+ after 20 years, like I said, I may just put them back.
I'm not mad Destroyer X 
I have to go to work at the moment, but I will give you a detailed answer later tonight as to the points you have brought up.
I have considered many of the factors that you just stated, but here are some 'key' points:
1. I have Magnepans, no cones, and there is a subtle difference between the two speakers.
2. I gave up vinyl in the 80's. The Hafler system has always had a Harman Kardon CD player, and sounded remarkable with well made recordings.
3. Regarding the preamp, it sounds awful through headphones with the new caps (FM/SILMIC II)
Talk at ya later guys, thanks for the feedback
I have to go to work at the moment, but I will give you a detailed answer later tonight as to the points you have brought up.
I have considered many of the factors that you just stated, but here are some 'key' points:
1. I have Magnepans, no cones, and there is a subtle difference between the two speakers.
2. I gave up vinyl in the 80's. The Hafler system has always had a Harman Kardon CD player, and sounded remarkable with well made recordings.
3. Regarding the preamp, it sounds awful through headphones with the new caps (FM/SILMIC II)
Talk at ya later guys, thanks for the feedback
Like Carlos I would be suspicious of the loudspeakers. If they have bipolar electrolytics in the crossover these should first be suspected. Does the mylar film diaphragm stretch over time? I know owners of old Quad electrostatics have to change the films but is this to do with the conductive coating or diaphragm stretch?
it would probably be a good idea to invest in or borrow an ESR tester for caps, there's a 100khz model out there that works well. or if you have an o-scope and a function generator that goes up to 100khz, you could build an ESR tester. sometimes off the shelf caps need to be "broken in" ("formed" is the actual tech term) if they have been sitting on the shelf for more than a year or two. this is done by applying their rated voltage to them through a 100k resistor for about 24-48hrs. the leakage current shows up as a DC voltage drop across the resistor. once the leakage current gets down into the range of a microamp or less, the cap is reformed and ready to use.
IMO, changing parts by reputation, brand or price, is folly. Get your hands on a proper bridge, or set something up with a scope as described above, and base your decisions on working knowledge about the specific parts at hand. Personally I don't change parts unless they're degrading, or have failed, or if I'm doing an upgrade with a specific purpose in mind.
There are many factors at work here. Over the years your system has changed, probably slowly. Chances are your hearing has changed as well. Maybe the environment too. You've probably gotten used to some things, but at some point it all went downhill. That knowledge/belief alone can have a huge influence. Anyway, I can't imagine not getting the equipment on the test bench for a thorough going over after changing out parts. Everybody thinks this is a benign thing, but as you've shown, it can be far from it. In general I'm not of the "everything has to be burned in" school, but all electrolytic caps will show changes in leakage and other characteristics for many hours (even weeks) after they're first installed. Give them some time. Both the caps will change, and like it or not, so will your brain. IMO, that's what a lot of so-called burn-in is really about. Caps today are somewhat different than in the past, but usually for the better- lower ESR. Of course one could make a case that in a given circuit that's bad, and add an appropriate series resistance. I do avoid caps that seem to have been miniaturized far beyond their previous case sizes.
There are many factors at work here. Over the years your system has changed, probably slowly. Chances are your hearing has changed as well. Maybe the environment too. You've probably gotten used to some things, but at some point it all went downhill. That knowledge/belief alone can have a huge influence. Anyway, I can't imagine not getting the equipment on the test bench for a thorough going over after changing out parts. Everybody thinks this is a benign thing, but as you've shown, it can be far from it. In general I'm not of the "everything has to be burned in" school, but all electrolytic caps will show changes in leakage and other characteristics for many hours (even weeks) after they're first installed. Give them some time. Both the caps will change, and like it or not, so will your brain. IMO, that's what a lot of so-called burn-in is really about. Caps today are somewhat different than in the past, but usually for the better- lower ESR. Of course one could make a case that in a given circuit that's bad, and add an appropriate series resistance. I do avoid caps that seem to have been miniaturized far beyond their previous case sizes.
I guess this says something to those who say you can't hear the difference in caps...
I'd leave them in and let them run for about a week; put the radio on and disconnect the speakers when your not listening.
Other possibility is that the original caps were soft sounding, kind of rolled off at the extremes and kinda smoothed things out. Both stock Haflers had enough issues that the effects of time and age on the caps might have been a blessing.
I actually like the Panasonic FM series. Interesting that they sounded the worst.
The stock caps might be your best course here.
Regards, Mike.
I'd leave them in and let them run for about a week; put the radio on and disconnect the speakers when your not listening.
Other possibility is that the original caps were soft sounding, kind of rolled off at the extremes and kinda smoothed things out. Both stock Haflers had enough issues that the effects of time and age on the caps might have been a blessing.
I actually like the Panasonic FM series. Interesting that they sounded the worst.
The stock caps might be your best course here.
Regards, Mike.
Can you hear capacitors?
Oh yeah, you can hear caps.
Ok, there are a lot of suggestions/questions I would like to respond to, so here goes.
One of the first things that I suspected shortly after this 'madness' began was the fact that the Hafler circuits might actually be 'tuned' to a certain ESR, DA, etc. I am beginning to be more convinced that this is the case.
To consort ee um and Carlos -
I really doubt it is the speakers because all of this auditioning has taken place over the last 4 months or so and the speakers sounded stellar before I took anything apart. Every change has been auditioned with the same speaks in the same place and every cap change I have made has made a noticeable difference in the quality of sound.
To kaos -
THANK You kaos!! I will try those caps eventually, it's too bad I have some 07 date code KMF's and KMG's, but no SMG's
To unclejed613 -
The caps have date codes of February '07 or newer.
I do not have an ESR tester but I reformed all of the caps (25 and 50 volt) to 18.5 volts DC for about an hour apiece with a 1K resistor. I monitored voltage drop across the resistor to test for high leakage/ESR - all caps tested phenomenal.
I even did a rudimentary DA test by discharging the caps for about 10-15 seconds with a resistor and measuring the recovery voltage after 60 seconds.
All the ELNA SILMICs tested about .35% DA.
To Conrad Hoffman -
I understand all of the factors that you mentioned, but this system sounded stunning until about 4 years ago. Even then, it still sounded good, just a little more hash in the upper midranges and a little less subsonic bass.
Yes, I know how important it would be put this thing on scope, but when I say I live in poverty, I'm really not kidding and I can't get political about it here.
To speakerguy79 -
I read another audio board post where the guy was ripping on the Panasonic SU BPs - so I took them out and put the Nichicons back in, there was an instant and noticeable improvement in the imaging. Where the Panasonic SU was muddy and made all of the music seem to come out of 2 speakers, the Nichicon was closer to the original 3-D effect of the IC caps.
To Mike Bettinger -
1. I'm telling you I can hear caps. If you doubt me, I would happily come and listen to your cap changes and tell you what is different. The sound was so different between cap changes that I realized almost immediately that I had 'destroyed' my XL-280 when I threw the original caps away
2. I am going to burn in my pre-amp and see what happens, I have little to lose as it appears to be functioning perfectly. I am listening to it right now and all I can say is, 'Where is the treble? Where is the sparkle? Where is the life, the 3-D?'
3. The original caps were NOT soft sounding!! The IC caps had deep, clear bass extending into the subsonics. The top-end was 'bright' and sparkley without being harsh or overbearing. The soundstage was perfectly defined from front to back and seemed to extend about 3 feet beyond each speaker - amazing. It was exciting to listen to.
No kidding, true story:
I once had a friend over to hear my system and after listening to a few notes of music he jumped out of his chair and started looking around for the 'other' speakers! I am absolutely not kidding, the soundstage was so 3-D, he thought I had planted surround speakers and was playing a joke on him!!
4. I did not say the Panasonic FMs were the worst. The FCs were the worst as rail caps in my power amp. The FMs have been applied as main power filter caps in my pre-amp, and I don't even know if I can 'hear' them because of the simultaneous replacement of all 8 rail caps with the ELNA SILMIC IIs. I doubt the FMs are an issue here.
To tinitus -
I think I might agree. I am starting to think the Hafler circuit may have relied on 'tuning' specific resistor/cap values to transistor beta etc.
To anyone familiar with my posts from months ago -
Do you know what that 'fizzle' was that I heard that started all of this cap changing madness?
It was a dirty tape monitor selector on my DH110 pre, it caused the sound to distort randomly from room vibration!
Yes, it's true, I destroyed a Hafler amp and preamp because of a dirty selector switch -
And would you believe this is pretty much par for my luck?
Oh yeah, you can hear caps.
Ok, there are a lot of suggestions/questions I would like to respond to, so here goes.
One of the first things that I suspected shortly after this 'madness' began was the fact that the Hafler circuits might actually be 'tuned' to a certain ESR, DA, etc. I am beginning to be more convinced that this is the case.
To consort ee um and Carlos -
I really doubt it is the speakers because all of this auditioning has taken place over the last 4 months or so and the speakers sounded stellar before I took anything apart. Every change has been auditioned with the same speaks in the same place and every cap change I have made has made a noticeable difference in the quality of sound.
To kaos -
THANK You kaos!! I will try those caps eventually, it's too bad I have some 07 date code KMF's and KMG's, but no SMG's
To unclejed613 -
The caps have date codes of February '07 or newer.
I do not have an ESR tester but I reformed all of the caps (25 and 50 volt) to 18.5 volts DC for about an hour apiece with a 1K resistor. I monitored voltage drop across the resistor to test for high leakage/ESR - all caps tested phenomenal.
I even did a rudimentary DA test by discharging the caps for about 10-15 seconds with a resistor and measuring the recovery voltage after 60 seconds.
All the ELNA SILMICs tested about .35% DA.
To Conrad Hoffman -
I understand all of the factors that you mentioned, but this system sounded stunning until about 4 years ago. Even then, it still sounded good, just a little more hash in the upper midranges and a little less subsonic bass.
Yes, I know how important it would be put this thing on scope, but when I say I live in poverty, I'm really not kidding and I can't get political about it here.
To speakerguy79 -
I read another audio board post where the guy was ripping on the Panasonic SU BPs - so I took them out and put the Nichicons back in, there was an instant and noticeable improvement in the imaging. Where the Panasonic SU was muddy and made all of the music seem to come out of 2 speakers, the Nichicon was closer to the original 3-D effect of the IC caps.
To Mike Bettinger -
1. I'm telling you I can hear caps. If you doubt me, I would happily come and listen to your cap changes and tell you what is different. The sound was so different between cap changes that I realized almost immediately that I had 'destroyed' my XL-280 when I threw the original caps away
2. I am going to burn in my pre-amp and see what happens, I have little to lose as it appears to be functioning perfectly. I am listening to it right now and all I can say is, 'Where is the treble? Where is the sparkle? Where is the life, the 3-D?'
3. The original caps were NOT soft sounding!! The IC caps had deep, clear bass extending into the subsonics. The top-end was 'bright' and sparkley without being harsh or overbearing. The soundstage was perfectly defined from front to back and seemed to extend about 3 feet beyond each speaker - amazing. It was exciting to listen to.
No kidding, true story:
I once had a friend over to hear my system and after listening to a few notes of music he jumped out of his chair and started looking around for the 'other' speakers! I am absolutely not kidding, the soundstage was so 3-D, he thought I had planted surround speakers and was playing a joke on him!!
4. I did not say the Panasonic FMs were the worst. The FCs were the worst as rail caps in my power amp. The FMs have been applied as main power filter caps in my pre-amp, and I don't even know if I can 'hear' them because of the simultaneous replacement of all 8 rail caps with the ELNA SILMIC IIs. I doubt the FMs are an issue here.
To tinitus -
I think I might agree. I am starting to think the Hafler circuit may have relied on 'tuning' specific resistor/cap values to transistor beta etc.
To anyone familiar with my posts from months ago -
Do you know what that 'fizzle' was that I heard that started all of this cap changing madness?
It was a dirty tape monitor selector on my DH110 pre, it caused the sound to distort randomly from room vibration!
Yes, it's true, I destroyed a Hafler amp and preamp because of a dirty selector switch -
And would you believe this is pretty much par for my luck?
Low ESR Caps
Hi HaflerFreak, I had similar experience with low ESR caps.
I think it has to do with charging peaks from the rectifiers in the power supply. If used after a regulator the ESR may be too low.
Currently I am using stinking normal cheap electrolytics.
I do not follow the crowd placing in Panasonic FMs, FCs or other low ESR caps.
Hi HaflerFreak, I had similar experience with low ESR caps.
I think it has to do with charging peaks from the rectifiers in the power supply. If used after a regulator the ESR may be too low.
Currently I am using stinking normal cheap electrolytics.
I do not follow the crowd placing in Panasonic FMs, FCs or other low ESR caps.
Re: Can you hear capacitors?
Hi,
From your response I gather you thought I was disagreeing with you when I was infact sincere. My comment on hearing the caps was poking fun at those who insist that there is no audible difference between any number of variables.
My comment about soft was, again, offering the observation that electros can tend to smooth things out, obscuring or filling in the background, a sort of masking effect. Once again, positive comments, real experience instigated this.
I use the Panasonic FM's in most all of my projects requiring electrolytics. Not as coupling caps but in all applicable noise filtering /noise bypass and supply raw filtering. My comments were simply as input (here's someone getting good results here, huhmmmm, food for thought).
I was around when the Hafler's were new and my experience with them was real.
My reason for posting? There is a reason for what you are hearing, but I doubt that it's based on the newer caps being inherently bad.
From experience I would still suggest a week of intense burn-in and then re-evaluate the results. The missing treble and 3-D bloom are classic break in characturistics.
I doubt you've destroyed your Haflers, although getting to the bottom of what you're experiencing could be a real challenge; Luckily, as you have presented it, the caps are the single variable between good and bad. It's rare to have such a straight forward experimental situation.
For what it's worth, Mike.
HaflerFreak said:Oh yeah, you can hear caps.
To Mike Bettinger -
1. I'm telling you I can hear caps. If you doubt me, I would happily come and listen to your cap changes and tell you what is different. The sound was so different between cap changes that I realized almost immediately that I had 'destroyed' my XL-280 when I threw the original caps away
2. I am going to burn in my pre-amp and see what happens, I have little to lose as it appears to be functioning perfectly. I am listening to it right now and all I can say is, 'Where is the treble? Where is the sparkle? Where is the life, the 3-D?'
3. The original caps were NOT soft sounding!! The IC caps had deep, clear bass extending into the subsonics. The top-end was 'bright' and sparkley without being harsh or overbearing. The soundstage was perfectly defined from front to back and seemed to extend about 3 feet beyond each speaker - amazing. It was exciting to listen to.
No kidding, true story:
I once had a friend over to hear my system and after listening to a few notes of music he jumped out of his chair and started looking around for the 'other' speakers! I am absolutely not kidding, the soundstage was so 3-D, he thought I had planted surround speakers and was playing a joke on him!!
4. I did not say the Panasonic FMs were the worst. The FCs were the worst as rail caps in my power amp. The FMs have been applied as main power filter caps in my pre-amp, and I don't even know if I can 'hear' them because of the simultaneous replacement of all 8 rail caps with the ELNA SILMIC IIs. I doubt the FMs are an issue here.
Yes, it's true, I destroyed a Hafler amp and preamp because of a dirty selector switch -
And would you believe this is pretty much par for my luck?
Hi,
From your response I gather you thought I was disagreeing with you when I was infact sincere. My comment on hearing the caps was poking fun at those who insist that there is no audible difference between any number of variables.
My comment about soft was, again, offering the observation that electros can tend to smooth things out, obscuring or filling in the background, a sort of masking effect. Once again, positive comments, real experience instigated this.
I use the Panasonic FM's in most all of my projects requiring electrolytics. Not as coupling caps but in all applicable noise filtering /noise bypass and supply raw filtering. My comments were simply as input (here's someone getting good results here, huhmmmm, food for thought).
I was around when the Hafler's were new and my experience with them was real.
My reason for posting? There is a reason for what you are hearing, but I doubt that it's based on the newer caps being inherently bad.
From experience I would still suggest a week of intense burn-in and then re-evaluate the results. The missing treble and 3-D bloom are classic break in characturistics.
I doubt you've destroyed your Haflers, although getting to the bottom of what you're experiencing could be a real challenge; Luckily, as you have presented it, the caps are the single variable between good and bad. It's rare to have such a straight forward experimental situation.
For what it's worth, Mike.
Listening in the dark
Mike Bettinger is a late night guy - right on!
Thank you so much for your response, it is sincerely appreciated. I know I didn't 'destroy' the Haffies, I haven't touched their silicon or resistors and such, it's just the electros and I was very careful when I removed the old ones.
Oh listening in the dark, it has been a long time since I have visited you.
I revved up the system. I put on an ep of 'Seinfeld' to let her warm up real good. Turned out the lights and put on, 'The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots' track 6 'Ego Tripping at the Gates of Hell' for the beautiful spatial effects...
Where in the dagnabbit blazes is my treble!! All of that glittery, sparkley wonder is gone. Everything that brought the sound out in front of the speakers and centered it in holographic space - is gone.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I have tested the preamp with some headphones, it reflects the experience with my amp/speakers. Loss of high-end.
About my age and hearing:
While I am 79 spiritually, I am 36 in body. I have treasured my hearing throughout my life staying away from concerts, airplanes, trains, etc. I would assume since I heard this difference since last week, that it is not age related.
I started this journey with a Stromberg/Carlson tube amp system and a Pioneer turntable. After that, a Denon integrated amp with a set of spectacular Dahlquist speakers (anyone remember those?)
I love beauty, and I have found it in music (and trees, but we insist on cutting all of those down).
Oh Heathkit, Radio Shack, the old HiFi rags, where did it all go?
Please forgive me, I've had a beer and it pretty much brings tears to my eyes remembering the good 'ol days.
I have some great pics of my craftsmanship, but I cannot post them due to the fact that my hosting company has apparently gone kaput.
I also have another XL-280, unaltered except for a new power switch that I think I will hook up right now to check out these newfangled SILMIC II gadgets.
The only thing is, the other XL-280 has K126(I think)/J74 input JFET pairs and my baby has K163/J44 pairs. Also the BP caps in the other XL-280 are TAEPO BP caps so the comparison will be, hopefully, revealing of the preamp. The 'stock' XL-280 is from eBay and has sounded weak in the bass, probably from the big 7800uF jobs getting old, but has excellent centering and balance. A little boring compared to my baby (The one with K163/J44 pairs).
Oh, I see I am blathering here, please excuse.
Mike Bettinger is a late night guy - right on!
Thank you so much for your response, it is sincerely appreciated. I know I didn't 'destroy' the Haffies, I haven't touched their silicon or resistors and such, it's just the electros and I was very careful when I removed the old ones.
Oh listening in the dark, it has been a long time since I have visited you.
I revved up the system. I put on an ep of 'Seinfeld' to let her warm up real good. Turned out the lights and put on, 'The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots' track 6 'Ego Tripping at the Gates of Hell' for the beautiful spatial effects...
Where in the dagnabbit blazes is my treble!! All of that glittery, sparkley wonder is gone. Everything that brought the sound out in front of the speakers and centered it in holographic space - is gone.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I have tested the preamp with some headphones, it reflects the experience with my amp/speakers. Loss of high-end.
About my age and hearing:
While I am 79 spiritually, I am 36 in body. I have treasured my hearing throughout my life staying away from concerts, airplanes, trains, etc. I would assume since I heard this difference since last week, that it is not age related.
I started this journey with a Stromberg/Carlson tube amp system and a Pioneer turntable. After that, a Denon integrated amp with a set of spectacular Dahlquist speakers (anyone remember those?)
I love beauty, and I have found it in music (and trees, but we insist on cutting all of those down).
Oh Heathkit, Radio Shack, the old HiFi rags, where did it all go?
Please forgive me, I've had a beer and it pretty much brings tears to my eyes remembering the good 'ol days.
I have some great pics of my craftsmanship, but I cannot post them due to the fact that my hosting company has apparently gone kaput.
I also have another XL-280, unaltered except for a new power switch that I think I will hook up right now to check out these newfangled SILMIC II gadgets.
The only thing is, the other XL-280 has K126(I think)/J74 input JFET pairs and my baby has K163/J44 pairs. Also the BP caps in the other XL-280 are TAEPO BP caps so the comparison will be, hopefully, revealing of the preamp. The 'stock' XL-280 is from eBay and has sounded weak in the bass, probably from the big 7800uF jobs getting old, but has excellent centering and balance. A little boring compared to my baby (The one with K163/J44 pairs).
Oh, I see I am blathering here, please excuse.
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