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suzyj 1st August 2007 09:37 AM

Capabilities of 2SK1058 & 2SJ162
 
2 Attachment(s)
I was wondering what sort of performance one could get from an amp built with Hitachi 2SK1058 and 2SJ162 output transistors, if one took a "no holds barred" approach to the design.

I figured that with a Vdsmax of 160V, setting rails at +/-70V was reasonable. In order to get ample power into a typical 8 Ohm speaker, one could drive a pair of amps in a bridge configuration. Running the numbers, it's reasonably easy to do 800W, with +/-57V swing...

So I set to designing half that amp - something that's able to push 400W into a 4 Ohm load. I've attached the results of my couple-of-evening effort.

It's clearly Tilbrook inspired, but I've added a few output pairs. That meant a reasonable amount of gate current, so I added emitter followers to the VAS. I'm still playing with other transistors in the input to the VAS as well - this time I thought I'd try Phillips PBSS8110Y and PBSS9110Y duals. They've got an fT of 100, with hFE<80. Alas they're limited a little by their 100V Vceo, but in this spot that's not an issue. Being duals, I imagine they won't suffer from the thermal tracking issues of the SOT-23 MMBTA06/56 transistors I used in my 50W amp.

I'd have used 2SA1209 and 2SC2911 transistors in place of the MJE340/350s, but I haven't been able to find a spice model for these - their specs imply that they'd improve the performance significantly though.

It simulates okay - 0.002% THD pushing 400W into 4 Ohms at 1KHz... At 200W, that drops to 0.0008%. Alas, LTspice gets a little confused when I put two back-to-back to drive 800W into 8Ohms. I presume it would be better, with all those even harmonics being canceled.

I probably won't build it though, as that would be somewhat silly. But it was fun as an exercise.

AndrewT 1st August 2007 09:58 AM

Hi,
I have a set of old Sugden P128 that use these Lateral Fets on +-70Vdc supply rails.

The original pair still run on the 2pair output stage.
They tested well into 8ohms but due to collapse of supply rail voltage they survived 4ohm testing with mediocre results.
I looked at SOAR and concluded that 2pair is stretching these devices a bit far, so I modified a pair to triple the smoothing capacitance and doubled the outputs to 4pair. They are now capable of properly driving 4ohm loads but only for medium term transients (i.e. music). The supplies still collapse into 4ohm loading. They do have a touch of sibilance and fail to rail on the output if a fuse blows so are out of use until I can sort both problems.

My conclusion for your use is, 4pair on +-70Vdc will drive 4ohms loads adequately even with a really stiff power supply. But there is a problem @ Vds between 5 & 6V and output current >10Apk. Your 5pair solves this.
Bridged this would make an enormous 8ohm amplifier.
But the heatsink will also need to be enormous if you go for Ib=100mA per device. I have to keep mine at 75mA and it still runs >50degC when the weather's warm.

Forget bridged into 4ohm unless you are prepared to go to >=6pair (24 FETs in each monoblock).

The Sugden runs the front end and drivers from +-78Vdc.

suzyj 1st August 2007 10:13 AM

I've managed to get LTspice to simulate a bridged pair of amps, and get 0.002% driving 800W, 1KHz into an 8 Ohm load. at 400W, that drops to 0.0008% :)

jaycee 1st August 2007 10:25 AM

2 Attachment(s)
suzy, maybe consider KSA1381/KSC3503 from Fairchild. These look like excellent transistors for VAS/predrive duties - and Fairchild have a good SPICE model :)

Actually, I think it's a bit too good for ltspice.. i noticed that its quite easy to make the models exhibit bad rail sticking when pushed into clipping.. which im sure they don't in real use.

If you need more current for drive duty, they also have KSA1220/KSC2690... the capacitance is higher but they still look good.

rabbitz 1st August 2007 12:45 PM

ESP has the P101 which is a nice simple amp using the 2SK1058 and 2SJ162.

http://sound.westhost.com/project101.htm

Out of all Rod's amps, I like this one the best.

jackinnj 1st August 2007 01:26 PM

You might find that ditching the drive circuitry and using the LM4702 to be quite advantageous -- in a recent incarnation I was able to get the THD of a LM4702 + Lateral MOSFET amp down to 0.001% THD at 120W -- this by tweaking the compensation and simplifying the bias -- and with no additional drive transistors (the lateral MOSFETs were matched, however, and the load balancing resistors 100 milliOhms.) This was 0.002% better than the result I had obtained previously, and getting down to the resolution of my test setup.

On the bench right now I have an LM4702 with a higher current drive transistors -- 2SB649A + 2SD669A -- going through the paces so there's no data to report. The KSA1381/KSC3503 look very good as well with higher Ft, hfe, Vceo etc. and i will check these out as well.

Bensen 1st August 2007 09:00 PM

suzyj,

I used my old tool again.
It appears that with rails of +-70V under load you will be able to pull 210W in 8Ohm and 400W in 4Ohm out off it. But beware, having rails of +-70V with a 4Ohm load will mean that you will have +-82V when there is no load connected!!

With a load lower than 8Ohm the chances are bigger that you're working out of the SOA of these nice devices.
This is simulated with:
* 5 devices in parallel
* 50C heatsink temperature
* 45 phase shift due to the reactance of the speaker.


What do you think of 2SA1349 (2x2SA970) and 2SC3381(2x 2SC2240) devices for the diff stage?
Are the MJE15034 and MJE15034 not better than the 340/350 for the emitter followers?


Greetz
Ben

suzyj 2nd August 2007 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaycee
suzy, maybe consider KSA1381/KSC3503 from Fairchild.
Hey, thanks for that. They look really good.

Quote:

Originally posted by rabbitz
ESP has the P101 which is a nice simple amp using the 2SK1058 and 2SJ162.

Yeah, Greg's amps are beautifully designed and really well thought out. I didn't design this though as something to build - more just an exercise to see what can be done with these transistors. Bear in mind I already have a pair of 100W amps using these transistors (and a similar circuit) that I'm very attached to.

Quote:

Originally posted by jackinnj
in a recent incarnation I was able to get the THD of a LM4702 + Lateral MOSFET amp down to 0.001% THD at 120W
That's very cool. I noticed the LM4702 app note about using it with MOSFETs, and was quite impressed at the figures they were getting. It looks like a really amazing chip.

Quote:

Originally posted by jackinnj
On the bench right now I have an LM4702 with a higher current drive transistors -- 2SB649A + 2SD669A -- going through the paces so there's no data to report. The KSA1381/KSC3503 look very good as well with higher Ft, hfe, Vceo etc. and i will check these out as well.
Any chance of bunging up a schematic for that? It sounds very neat. I don't suppose there are models kicking around gor the LM4702...

GK 2nd August 2007 10:39 AM

Re: Capabilities of 2SK1058 & 2SJ162
 
Quote:

Originally posted by suzyj
I probably won't build it though, as that would be somewhat silly.

No sense of adventure. That's all I'm going to say :devily:
I'm currently loading my boards.......


Cheers,
Glen

jackinnj 2nd August 2007 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by suzyj
Any chance of bunging up a schematic for that? It sounds very neat. I don't suppose there are models kicking around gor the LM4702...
The schematic is in Troy Huebner's application note -- I used transistors with higher Vceo than his as I stock them on my webstore.


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