Its been discussed before:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....49c6c7?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&#doc_27028529742a99fc
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....49c6c7?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&#doc_27028529742a99fc
And why not Germanium ?
Ok, have a lot of silicon transistors today and the sound quality remains very inferior to old tubes .
Germanium transistors do not can be a new option for superior quality ?
In my tests with Mosfets, this device have a superior THD when compared with bipolars...
The modern industry have others options? For me, NO !!!
The best option is the return to past !!!
Ok, have a lot of silicon transistors today and the sound quality remains very inferior to old tubes .
Germanium transistors do not can be a new option for superior quality ?
In my tests with Mosfets, this device have a superior THD when compared with bipolars...
The modern industry have others options? For me, NO !!!
The best option is the return to past !!!
Germanium devices of old were leaky, highly temperature sensitive, and hard to stabilize. Reliability wasn't as good as today's devices either. IMHO, the perfect device for hi-end audio! Seriously, they do have one advantage. They turn on at or near zero volts. That's why germanium diodes are still used for some small signal RF applications- you can still buy a 1N270. If you could keep the thermal problems under control, there might be the possibility of lower inherent crossover distortion. I didn't read the old stuff, so sorry if this has already been mentioned.
Temperature do not is a problem
Temperature do not is a problem, I can use liquid oxygen or a refrigerator chip in the Germanium device...
Seriously, a good termal project help for avoid problems.
In others words, Mosfets have a higher distortion wheen compared to bipolar and is the most used output transistor today...
Aldovan
Temperature do not is a problem, I can use liquid oxygen or a refrigerator chip in the Germanium device...
Seriously, a good termal project help for avoid problems.
In others words, Mosfets have a higher distortion wheen compared to bipolar and is the most used output transistor today...
Aldovan
Oh!..... there's another scientific aproach
Carlos
Eu ouço apenas valvulados há 10 anos.
O som das válvulas é bem superior, principalmente dos triodos.
Porém fiz algumas experiências com Germânio e realmente gostei, achei o som melhor que MOSFETs, Bipolares e outras sucatas do tipo solid devices...
Apenas queria saber a opinião dos Yankees e percebi que eles chutam demais. Deveriam sentar numa bancada, na frente de um scope e de um audio generator e fazer uns testes, para depois fazer testes auditivos.
Os caras comparam transistores atuais com os primeiros germânios dos anos 50, daí não dá...
Antes dos yankees darem opiniões idiotas deveriam pesquisar primeiro.
Há transistores de Germânio com 30A de coletor e os de áudio respondem no mínimo até 300KHz...
Aldovan
Carlos
Eu ouço apenas valvulados há 10 anos.
O som das válvulas é bem superior, principalmente dos triodos.
Porém fiz algumas experiências com Germânio e realmente gostei, achei o som melhor que MOSFETs, Bipolares e outras sucatas do tipo solid devices...
Apenas queria saber a opinião dos Yankees e percebi que eles chutam demais. Deveriam sentar numa bancada, na frente de um scope e de um audio generator e fazer uns testes, para depois fazer testes auditivos.
Os caras comparam transistores atuais com os primeiros germânios dos anos 50, daí não dá...
Antes dos yankees darem opiniões idiotas deveriam pesquisar primeiro.
Há transistores de Germânio com 30A de coletor e os de áudio respondem no mínimo até 300KHz...
Aldovan
Well folks, sorry, but Aldovan is not skilled related our forum
He post very few posts since 2005.... the majority of his posts were made in this thread.
So...he has not experience and forgot that we cannot use our native language, portuguese, we can only into direct mails...the language here, because International forum, is the main International language...the English.
If we make comments in our own language, we have the obligation to offer a version, the most precise possible version.
He said that he is not kidding...that really he have perceived sonic qualities into Germanium output, also he said that there are units that can work into several kilohertz...said that sounds excelent.
He confirmed that he thinks tube sound is better, also that he dislike Field Effect and do not think BGT is the best option...not the silicon transistor!
He said that people could try some Germanium....to do in real life an experience, not to dennie that possibility without research in real life.. he said that people will be surprised.
regards,
Carlos.
He post very few posts since 2005.... the majority of his posts were made in this thread.
So...he has not experience and forgot that we cannot use our native language, portuguese, we can only into direct mails...the language here, because International forum, is the main International language...the English.
If we make comments in our own language, we have the obligation to offer a version, the most precise possible version.
He said that he is not kidding...that really he have perceived sonic qualities into Germanium output, also he said that there are units that can work into several kilohertz...said that sounds excelent.
He confirmed that he thinks tube sound is better, also that he dislike Field Effect and do not think BGT is the best option...not the silicon transistor!
He said that people could try some Germanium....to do in real life an experience, not to dennie that possibility without research in real life.. he said that people will be surprised.
regards,
Carlos.
Re: And why not Germanium ?
There are bad tube designs as well as good ones. Same goes for solid state.
I agree. Whether an amp "sounds" good is too subjective to base this aurgument on. To some people with some speakers, acuracy doesn't mean it sounds better. What we need here is some actual numbers. A kit in which the outputs can be changed easily from silicon to germainium devices of somewhat similar 'properties' is needed to better compare and anylize any real differences.
Might be interesting if any of you folks with germainium outputs feel inclined to go experimenting...
aldovan said:
There are bad tube designs as well as good ones. Same goes for solid state.
Eva said:After so many years trying to achieve better and better linearity and reliability in audio electronics, we have to face the sad truth about the human being:
1 - We love distortion and metaphysics
2 - Amplifier people doesn't want to learn about loudspeakers and acoustics
I agree. Whether an amp "sounds" good is too subjective to base this aurgument on. To some people with some speakers, acuracy doesn't mean it sounds better. What we need here is some actual numbers. A kit in which the outputs can be changed easily from silicon to germainium devices of somewhat similar 'properties' is needed to better compare and anylize any real differences.
Might be interesting if any of you folks with germainium outputs feel inclined to go experimenting...
I suppose there are others than those ones you suggest
he said exist Germanium units that can work into kilohertz...well...i also never had one unit alike that in my hands.
But....let's wait to listen what he has to say.
A lot of things he said made sense to me...as tube sound, triode sound use to be fine... i know that distorts too much to measurements...but sound is fine even with those distortions.
I also remember that Germaniun units sounded fine...one of the best open rell tape recorders i could listen made use of Germanium units...low power units, of course.
I want to remember folks, that despite the tradition to design amplifier using Megahertz transistors, that audio is low frequencies...from 20 to 20 Kilohertz... and the use of high frequency transistors, HF units, is also non sense and we use to accept that as a rule..so...we have to be flexible, as some folk can enter and tell us that kind of truth we do not like to listen.
regards,
Carlos
he said exist Germanium units that can work into kilohertz...well...i also never had one unit alike that in my hands.
But....let's wait to listen what he has to say.
A lot of things he said made sense to me...as tube sound, triode sound use to be fine... i know that distorts too much to measurements...but sound is fine even with those distortions.
I also remember that Germaniun units sounded fine...one of the best open rell tape recorders i could listen made use of Germanium units...low power units, of course.
I want to remember folks, that despite the tradition to design amplifier using Megahertz transistors, that audio is low frequencies...from 20 to 20 Kilohertz... and the use of high frequency transistors, HF units, is also non sense and we use to accept that as a rule..so...we have to be flexible, as some folk can enter and tell us that kind of truth we do not like to listen.
regards,
Carlos
sorry for the portuguese text...
Ok, but 2N107 is a very old point-contact obsolete transistor.
Have very good more modern germanium options.
And until today the guitar mans prefer germanium in the pedals because is more smooth...
The tubes is old and is superior to Mosfets.
But I will finish this discussion here, because the peoples only will like the germanium sound when listen a good germanium amplifier.
Words is only words and Mosfet is only Mosfets, nothing more...
Aldovan
Ok, but 2N107 is a very old point-contact obsolete transistor.
Have very good more modern germanium options.
And until today the guitar mans prefer germanium in the pedals because is more smooth...
The tubes is old and is superior to Mosfets.
But I will finish this discussion here, because the peoples only will like the germanium sound when listen a good germanium amplifier.
Words is only words and Mosfet is only Mosfets, nothing more...
Aldovan
In 1970, Brazilian Philips produced an amplifier Kit
Was a Philips, Miniwatt tubes and Ibrape union result...the kit was the result of those three companies that made part of Brazilian Philips.... now a days, Philips here works on Sound, Television and home and Industrial lamps.
Miniwatt tubes are closed, of course... and the Brazilian Industry of parts (Ibrape) is closed too.
M-150 was the code number....unfortunatelly i have not the schematic.. i am still searching for it.
Direct coupled, silicon transistors were used to the kits, good units, low noise units and BDY Silicon transistor into the output...the old heavy units, steel case.
BUT...into the VAS stage (was bootstrapped) they decided to use an AD140.... an old Germanium transistor used into Auto radios output stage....not more than 10 watts dissipation and not a big voltage from colector to emitter...current was not big.... i cannot remember but was small, 1 or 2 amperes only.... and they decide to use that one.... when they had silicon to use into that position, including BD140 and others..... Texas had their good units too...and Philips had enougth transistors...but they decide to use a Germanium into the Vas...why?
Well...Aldovan give up....he quit to discuss.... a pity as he did not have informed us the Germanium models he was talking about...he said people has to listen to believe... i do agree about that.... we cannot convince..people have to test, to listen, and to realise by themselves.... this works...words or numbers do not works... we cannot convince no one...people convince themselves..but they have to be opened to try, to check, to produce experiences, to construct, to try....not to dennie in advance without try.
regards,
Carlos
Was a Philips, Miniwatt tubes and Ibrape union result...the kit was the result of those three companies that made part of Brazilian Philips.... now a days, Philips here works on Sound, Television and home and Industrial lamps.
Miniwatt tubes are closed, of course... and the Brazilian Industry of parts (Ibrape) is closed too.
M-150 was the code number....unfortunatelly i have not the schematic.. i am still searching for it.
Direct coupled, silicon transistors were used to the kits, good units, low noise units and BDY Silicon transistor into the output...the old heavy units, steel case.
BUT...into the VAS stage (was bootstrapped) they decided to use an AD140.... an old Germanium transistor used into Auto radios output stage....not more than 10 watts dissipation and not a big voltage from colector to emitter...current was not big.... i cannot remember but was small, 1 or 2 amperes only.... and they decide to use that one.... when they had silicon to use into that position, including BD140 and others..... Texas had their good units too...and Philips had enougth transistors...but they decide to use a Germanium into the Vas...why?
Well...Aldovan give up....he quit to discuss.... a pity as he did not have informed us the Germanium models he was talking about...he said people has to listen to believe... i do agree about that.... we cannot convince..people have to test, to listen, and to realise by themselves.... this works...words or numbers do not works... we cannot convince no one...people convince themselves..but they have to be opened to try, to check, to produce experiences, to construct, to try....not to dennie in advance without try.
regards,
Carlos
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