Hi all,
My friend has offered to build an amplifier for me. Requirements as follows:
will be used to drive a set of Monitor Audio (silver) 8i speakers (these are decent speakers and I won't be looking to upgrade them for at least another 5 years. They have 175W written on the back of them, whatever that means)
design should be proven and parts available in Australia (or via reputable “mail order” vendor) – can't afford to experiment – need this thing to work and to work well
budget: preferably below A$1000
I currently am using an (oldish) Yamaha AX 490. So whatever kit is built should be demonstrably “better”. The Silicon Chip kits seems like an obvious option and of those on offer am considering the 100W ULD and the Studio 350 (preferably the 350 as it seems a particularly quiet amplifier and has extra power).
So questions are:
Is the 200W for the Studio 350 a concern for my “175W” speakers?
How would you rate the performance of these amplifiers compared with commercial equivalents?
Is there anything else I should be considering? (Remember i don't want to modify existing designs – unless the mod has been in the public domain for some time and is “proven”)
Thanks in advance for any advice/insights.
Stuart
My friend has offered to build an amplifier for me. Requirements as follows:
will be used to drive a set of Monitor Audio (silver) 8i speakers (these are decent speakers and I won't be looking to upgrade them for at least another 5 years. They have 175W written on the back of them, whatever that means)
design should be proven and parts available in Australia (or via reputable “mail order” vendor) – can't afford to experiment – need this thing to work and to work well
budget: preferably below A$1000
I currently am using an (oldish) Yamaha AX 490. So whatever kit is built should be demonstrably “better”. The Silicon Chip kits seems like an obvious option and of those on offer am considering the 100W ULD and the Studio 350 (preferably the 350 as it seems a particularly quiet amplifier and has extra power).
So questions are:
Is the 200W for the Studio 350 a concern for my “175W” speakers?
How would you rate the performance of these amplifiers compared with commercial equivalents?
Is there anything else I should be considering? (Remember i don't want to modify existing designs – unless the mod has been in the public domain for some time and is “proven”)
Thanks in advance for any advice/insights.
Stuart
I can't find any info on the "100W ULD" kit you mention.. but i'd consider the AKSA 100 amplifier.
Amplifiers built for power can often compromise sound quality in favour of output power. I'd stick with something in the range of 70-100W.
The 200W output on your 175W speakers isn't immediately dangerous unless you were to crank it.
Amplifiers built for power can often compromise sound quality in favour of output power. I'd stick with something in the range of 70-100W.
The 200W output on your 175W speakers isn't immediately dangerous unless you were to crank it.
Links
Here are the Silicon Chip links for the 2 amps I mentioned:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_100503/article.html
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102474/article.html
From what I can figure out, these both have similar levels of (quite low) distortion, but the 200W amp has better S/N figure.
Here are the Silicon Chip links for the 2 amps I mentioned:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_100503/article.html
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102474/article.html
From what I can figure out, these both have similar levels of (quite low) distortion, but the 200W amp has better S/N figure.
Also have a loot at Rod Elliott's site sound.au.com. Not kits but good designs and a fellow Aussie. Good support as well.
Hi,
A 100W into 8 ohm, near 200W into 4 ohm amplifier is a good match.
But ~ double or ~ half that is perfectly usable.
I might reccomend the ASKA's if I could find any current info on them,
I cannot.
TBH building an amplifier has many pitfalls for the unwary, you can
buy a pretty good amplifier simply for all the parts as its cheaper
than buying all the hardware seperately.
I'm not up to date with kits available, I'll just note there is more to
amplifier design than meets the eye, such as reliability issues, the
"sound quality" of a built amplifier is a very moot point, as it will
depend on the way its built as much as the intrinsic design.
/sreten.
There is a very good choice of high quality kit amps in Australia. I have made my fair share of amplifier kits and to be honest would steer clear of the Silicon Chip kits because there are others that are so much better. The Silicon Chip amps are designed by engineers who don't seem to be able to listen critically to their creations. They are also designed to a budget, using parts available from Jaycar or Dick Smith. If you want quality go for AKSA (see above for the link), Greg Ball's SKA, or one of Anthony Holton's kits.
http://www.ska-audio.com
http://www.poweramplifiers.com.au/
Myself, I am currently building Greg Ball's GB300D and have been impressed with the quality of the kit, far far better than anything ever produced by the magazines. Greg has been very helpful with suggestions to optimise the amp to my requirements. He also has a forum with a lot of interesting and useful information. I don't have personal experience with Hugh's or Anthony's kits, but would not hesitate to order kits from. If only I had more time and $$s I would build amps from all 3 designers! Now that would be fun.
Peter
http://www.ska-audio.com
http://www.poweramplifiers.com.au/
Myself, I am currently building Greg Ball's GB300D and have been impressed with the quality of the kit, far far better than anything ever produced by the magazines. Greg has been very helpful with suggestions to optimise the amp to my requirements. He also has a forum with a lot of interesting and useful information. I don't have personal experience with Hugh's or Anthony's kits, but would not hesitate to order kits from. If only I had more time and $$s I would build amps from all 3 designers! Now that would be fun.
Peter
A couple more questions
Thanks for the replies everyone. Looks like there are some good options there that I would be happy with...judging from the following these products seem to have in the forum.
Re: sreten's comment "sound quality" of a built amplifier is a very moot point, as it will depend on the way its built as much as the intrinsic design.
I was deliberately steering away from an experimental approach, thinking that building a "proven" kit will likely result in a reasonable amp (possibility of incorrect wiring aside). Are you saying that the quality of the soldering has a big impact on results? What else? (they specify the parts to be used to get the amp to perform to spec)... At least with the Silicon Chip 100W, you can buy a case designed for it, so this could remove some of the possibilty of screwing things up by routing cables too close to power supplies etc. (I'm guessing here - I do not have an electronics background).
Quite a few people seem to like the Aksa amps, so they seem like a safe bet.
Trouble with me choosing an amp is:
1. I don't have the technical background to make an informed decision.
2. Even if I did, there seems to be a lot of misinformation in the industry (or at least you can't compare apples and oranges and manufacturers do not make the comparison easy)
3. The figures don't seem to tell the whole story--comparison on paper is almost meaningless?
4. It's rather hard to find the best when you can't comapre the kits in real life prior to buying one.
Re 3: The Silicon Chip amps are better on paper with things like THD than some of the seemingly more popular / better respected kits. Trouble is I don't really know what it means and by reading various forum postings it seems as though there is no common set of measurements that define a good amplifier. For example many people love tube amps that may have 3% distortion etc. So it seems it's a bit of a mysterious art and a matter of personal taste.
How can an amp, with more distortion (or whatever it may be) be "better"? It may make the source material sound nicer, but at the end of the day, isn't the better amplifier the one that most accurately reproduces what the sound engineer was hearing/capturing?
At the end of the day I guess there is really no way for me to be able to determine which amps make a better reference source than others, so I should just pick one of the kits people have generally been happy with, yeah? (That is I should assume I like what the majority of people seem to like and base my decision on their subjective experiences rather than looking at any figures?)
Mandoman have you built any of the S Chip stuff and/or listened to it or are you assuming it cannot be as good due to cheaper components? (How big a difference in the end does it make?) -- I like your suggestions btw. SO, given $1000 (and better still $700). Which amp would you build? Go on pick one for me or do you think they will all be much the same?
All that really matters is I get something noticeably better than my current Yamaha amp. Then I will not feel like I have wasted my money lol.
Stuart
Thanks for the replies everyone. Looks like there are some good options there that I would be happy with...judging from the following these products seem to have in the forum.
Re: sreten's comment "sound quality" of a built amplifier is a very moot point, as it will depend on the way its built as much as the intrinsic design.
I was deliberately steering away from an experimental approach, thinking that building a "proven" kit will likely result in a reasonable amp (possibility of incorrect wiring aside). Are you saying that the quality of the soldering has a big impact on results? What else? (they specify the parts to be used to get the amp to perform to spec)... At least with the Silicon Chip 100W, you can buy a case designed for it, so this could remove some of the possibilty of screwing things up by routing cables too close to power supplies etc. (I'm guessing here - I do not have an electronics background).
Quite a few people seem to like the Aksa amps, so they seem like a safe bet.
Trouble with me choosing an amp is:
1. I don't have the technical background to make an informed decision.
2. Even if I did, there seems to be a lot of misinformation in the industry (or at least you can't compare apples and oranges and manufacturers do not make the comparison easy)
3. The figures don't seem to tell the whole story--comparison on paper is almost meaningless?
4. It's rather hard to find the best when you can't comapre the kits in real life prior to buying one.
Re 3: The Silicon Chip amps are better on paper with things like THD than some of the seemingly more popular / better respected kits. Trouble is I don't really know what it means and by reading various forum postings it seems as though there is no common set of measurements that define a good amplifier. For example many people love tube amps that may have 3% distortion etc. So it seems it's a bit of a mysterious art and a matter of personal taste.
How can an amp, with more distortion (or whatever it may be) be "better"? It may make the source material sound nicer, but at the end of the day, isn't the better amplifier the one that most accurately reproduces what the sound engineer was hearing/capturing?
At the end of the day I guess there is really no way for me to be able to determine which amps make a better reference source than others, so I should just pick one of the kits people have generally been happy with, yeah? (That is I should assume I like what the majority of people seem to like and base my decision on their subjective experiences rather than looking at any figures?)
Mandoman have you built any of the S Chip stuff and/or listened to it or are you assuming it cannot be as good due to cheaper components? (How big a difference in the end does it make?) -- I like your suggestions btw. SO, given $1000 (and better still $700). Which amp would you build? Go on pick one for me
or do you think they will all be much the same?All that really matters is I get something noticeably better than my current Yamaha amp. Then I will not feel like I have wasted my money lol.
Stuart
Stuart,
Your dilemma is typical of anyone entering a new consumer arena. It's difficult to try before you buy, so you often go on advice of others.
Bear in mind the rules are the same; you get what you pay for in terms of sound quality. The argument about measurements is valid as far as it goes, but there is no 100% reliable correlation with music, as it's very complex and measurements on music are generally not possible, only test tones.
If you email me privately I can probably get you a test drive.
Cheers,
Hugh
Your dilemma is typical of anyone entering a new consumer arena. It's difficult to try before you buy, so you often go on advice of others.
Bear in mind the rules are the same; you get what you pay for in terms of sound quality. The argument about measurements is valid as far as it goes, but there is no 100% reliable correlation with music, as it's very complex and measurements on music are generally not possible, only test tones.
If you email me privately I can probably get you a test drive.
Cheers,
Hugh
Stuart
I'm not an electronics engineer and only have a basic understanding of amplifier design but am very experienced with good sound.
The step into any of these is a leap of faith and you have to research the products. I've built many power amps and a few of those were done to see if they were better than the AKSA.... none were for my tastes. All these amps were good BTW with some better than others.
I've built all these so I have a good idea (not in any order)
AKSA 55 (Hugh Dean)
AKSA 55N (Hugh Dean)
AKSA 55N+ (Hugh Dean)
Lifeforce 55 (Hugh Dean)
GB150 (Greg Ball)
NX150 (Anthony Holton)
SC 115W (Jaycar KC5210)
P3A (Rod Elliot)
P101 (Rod Elliot)
LM3875 (Brian Bell)
LM4780 (Peter Daniel)
LM3875 (home brew)
Please remember that the power amp is only part of the equation as you need a good pre amp, source and speakers plus they all have to match or suit each other. I can take any of those amps and make it sound bad with poor choices in partnering equipment.
Cheers
I'm not an electronics engineer and only have a basic understanding of amplifier design but am very experienced with good sound.
The step into any of these is a leap of faith and you have to research the products. I've built many power amps and a few of those were done to see if they were better than the AKSA.... none were for my tastes. All these amps were good BTW with some better than others.
I've built all these so I have a good idea (not in any order)
AKSA 55 (Hugh Dean)
AKSA 55N (Hugh Dean)
AKSA 55N+ (Hugh Dean)
Lifeforce 55 (Hugh Dean)
GB150 (Greg Ball)
NX150 (Anthony Holton)
SC 115W (Jaycar KC5210)
P3A (Rod Elliot)
P101 (Rod Elliot)
LM3875 (Brian Bell)
LM4780 (Peter Daniel)
LM3875 (home brew)
Please remember that the power amp is only part of the equation as you need a good pre amp, source and speakers plus they all have to match or suit each other. I can take any of those amps and make it sound bad with poor choices in partnering equipment.
Cheers
I have just completed a Leach amp (Prof Leach) and a P88 preamp (Rod Elliot). Both supply pcb's and the parts are not hard to find. The amp is 120 w into 8ohm, 240 into 4. They have both been built by a huge number of people (making help only a post away (thanks again everyone!)) and the price will come in right about where you want. Both are very proven designs.
The sound has surpassed my expectations. Cranked to the max I can not tell it's on until the music starts (except for those analog recordings). My friends with the expensive gear just shake their heads at how detailed the sound is. I am using a second hand pair of speakers from a friend who up graded last year. His comment - they never sounded like that before. I had to cut him off before he asked for them back :>.
As far as technical ability, I am an accountant! My high school didn't even offer shop classes.
What ever you decide to go with - enjoy
The sound has surpassed my expectations. Cranked to the max I can not tell it's on until the music starts (except for those analog recordings). My friends with the expensive gear just shake their heads at how detailed the sound is. I am using a second hand pair of speakers from a friend who up graded last year. His comment - they never sounded like that before. I had to cut him off before he asked for them back :>.
As far as technical ability, I am an accountant! My high school didn't even offer shop classes.
What ever you decide to go with - enjoy
I think Rabbitz has it pretty well covered, he has certainly built more amps than me. I am also not an electronics engineer, but do know good sound.
I have not built a magazine design for some years now mainly because after looking closely at the circuit designs and reading the articles, I considered them not worth the effort - so nothing from Silicon Chip who seem to have the attitude that measurement covers everything and THD is the bees knees for predicting sound quality. This is utter BS. Some years ago I built a kit pre amp (supposedly extremely low measured distortion and noise), but was so disappointed in the sound that I ended up designing and building my own pre amp (major project!) which is still in use. It murdered the kit pre amp in sound quality. Whether it has lower THD and noise or not I have no idea, but who cares. The point is it was designed for sound quality first, and did not have any DC blocking capacitors (to ruin the sound), to fix problems that should not have been there in the first place.
The last magazine designed power amp I built was from EA (I think), but I tweeked it until I ran out of ideas for tweeking. I still have the latest fully tweeked version which has served me well, but the SKA will replace it. The tweeking made a huge difference to the sound quality, it was chalk and cheese. After tweeking there was not much left of the original kit which illustrates my point about being designed to a price. After making a number of these modules I also discovered several potential disastrous failure points because the components supplied in the kits were not of sufficient voltage rating and they tended to fail if the amp was driven hard. If one of these components failed, bye bye speakers. This was a hard learned lesson by a friend who then warned me about the problem.
I have not built a magazine design for some years now mainly because after looking closely at the circuit designs and reading the articles, I considered them not worth the effort - so nothing from Silicon Chip who seem to have the attitude that measurement covers everything and THD is the bees knees for predicting sound quality. This is utter BS. Some years ago I built a kit pre amp (supposedly extremely low measured distortion and noise), but was so disappointed in the sound that I ended up designing and building my own pre amp (major project!) which is still in use. It murdered the kit pre amp in sound quality. Whether it has lower THD and noise or not I have no idea, but who cares. The point is it was designed for sound quality first, and did not have any DC blocking capacitors (to ruin the sound), to fix problems that should not have been there in the first place.
The last magazine designed power amp I built was from EA (I think), but I tweeked it until I ran out of ideas for tweeking. I still have the latest fully tweeked version which has served me well, but the SKA will replace it. The tweeking made a huge difference to the sound quality, it was chalk and cheese. After tweeking there was not much left of the original kit which illustrates my point about being designed to a price. After making a number of these modules I also discovered several potential disastrous failure points because the components supplied in the kits were not of sufficient voltage rating and they tended to fail if the amp was driven hard. If one of these components failed, bye bye speakers. This was a hard learned lesson by a friend who then warned me about the problem.
jnb
Below 200Hz I find the P101 represents great value with fine bass reproduction. Mine is used for 80Hz and below and at 120W+ into 8R has plenty on tap. A 55W AKSA can't compete with that grunt in that application and an AKSA 100 may be more of a match but I've never heard one so can't comment.
I've said it before that the P101 is my favourite of all Rod's amps that I've built.... and it's not just the bass sonics.... it's a great all rounder.
I think the AKSA 55 is a music machine and IMO needs to be producing all the frequencies to be at it's best.... use it below 200Hz only and it's charms would be lost IMO even though it has good bass performance.
I did build an experimental AKSA 55N this year to see how much bass reproduction I could get. It certainly had bags of bass (way over the top and not balanced with the rest of the frequencies) but sonics suffered elsewhere, so the mods were removed.... best left alone.
Below 200Hz I find the P101 represents great value with fine bass reproduction. Mine is used for 80Hz and below and at 120W+ into 8R has plenty on tap. A 55W AKSA can't compete with that grunt in that application and an AKSA 100 may be more of a match but I've never heard one so can't comment.
I've said it before that the P101 is my favourite of all Rod's amps that I've built.... and it's not just the bass sonics.... it's a great all rounder.
I think the AKSA 55 is a music machine and IMO needs to be producing all the frequencies to be at it's best.... use it below 200Hz only and it's charms would be lost IMO even though it has good bass performance.
I did build an experimental AKSA 55N this year to see how much bass reproduction I could get. It certainly had bags of bass (way over the top and not balanced with the rest of the frequencies) but sonics suffered elsewhere, so the mods were removed.... best left alone.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.