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Old 6th May 2007, 09:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by john curl ....................
This reminds me of an auto design parallel:
Many years ago there was this auto designer and reviewer named Smokey Y. who even wrote books about cars and engine tuning. He could not understand why auto designers wanted to use 4 valves per cylinder, rather than the traditional 2. He really criticized the concept. What do you think about Smokey's opinion today? Was he right on? Was he right for his needs? Would 4 valves per cylinder just be a waste of effort in a '55 GM auto? Quiz on Monday. ;-)
An other red herring? BTW, I really think you are Graham II.

Cheers,
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Old 6th May 2007, 09:10 PM   #22
Netlist is offline Netlist  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeks
Properly sized output inductors cannot affect "sound quality". Period.
Which seems to me an equal unfounded claim.

/Hugo
 
Old 6th May 2007, 09:11 PM   #23
mikeks is offline mikeks  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Christer
Perhaps the interesting question is how many other serious amp designers, except for John, skip the coil? Are we to assume that has become normal practice in state-of-the-art design, or is it only John and maybe a few others?

Quote:
Originally posted by Netlist
An equally interesting question would be to know more reasons the coil has become 'démodée' apart from audibility. I could easily think of more parts that are audible.

/Hugo

Halcro uses a proper output inductor; I don't think even JC at his worst would even try to describe Halcro as "unsuccessful"in broad daylight.
 
Old 6th May 2007, 09:13 PM   #24
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Maybe, but I bet it is not 6uH. Why don't we look at the Halcro impedance curves and estimate the value?
 
Old 6th May 2007, 09:26 PM   #25
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I estimate about 0.5uH or less for the Halcro DM58. Check it for yourself.
 
Old 6th May 2007, 09:27 PM   #26
mikeks is offline mikeks  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by john curl
Maybe, but I bet it is not 6uH. Why don't we look at the Halcro impedance curves and estimate the value?
I don't have to:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...amp=1109540374

I see you now appear to accept that an inductor is necessary after all.
 
Old 6th May 2007, 10:00 PM   #27
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I still consider it a minor liability, BUT it is only 0.5uH, AND any output wire has some inductance also.
Some people just don't want to learn something new. I don't understand it, but it does keep other major designers off this thread, since they don't want to waste their time being put down for making small improvement suggestions. Count on it.
 
Old 6th May 2007, 10:08 PM   #28
zinsula is offline zinsula  Switzerland
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Angry Arguing

I'm amazed about how you guys are not able to take John's standpoint as what it is:
The experience of someone who designed and still designs successful amplifiers. And listened (well, thats the very reason why he and some others are successful, not only numbers, but _listening_).
Maybe even he is not able to explain the effect tecnically. So what? Why trying continuosly to belittle him? Why?

What are you doing in these forums? It's all done right now...low THD is already a nobrainer even for diy, and you, Mikeks, estuart, and others, are all way ahead respect to a mortal diyer. So what, 0.000...% will be an easy task for you. And if it's low THD, sonic differences seem not to exist for you, at least not if the difference is heard only by JC, CH, NP and others. So what? What are you looking for here?

Mikeks, for instance, what have you done in audio apart a paper on output protection? You don't give the impression that you have built and listened to even one amp.
You are arguing all the time that all you need is to measure, and if THD is low enough, then the amp sounds as it should, no coloration.
So what else are you looking for in these forums? It's already well possible to build an amp with 0.00....% THD, no need to look out for new designs. Just build an amp as you say, do some good R-C filtering on the VAS, tons of feedback and Error correction. It's all there.
What are you doing here, other than annoying 80% of the members? Does it make feel you like Galileo? (Your words )

And a big cheer to the mods, who rather delete posts arbitrarily (hehe Kanwar, you didn't notice it yet, he...?? Do not mention Charles Hansen again, and beware of posting a link to another forum! It will evaporate...) instead of making an end to such an annoying member with an arguing : contributing ratio of around 10'000:1.

Tino
 
Old 6th May 2007, 10:12 PM   #29
x-pro is offline x-pro  United Kingdom
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I was trying to avoid using coils on the output of all Creek amps I've designed. The only exception was 5350 where I've used about 0.5uH on the output. All amps were stable with a pure capacitive load up to 2uF directly on the output terminals and more if there was a short lengh of wire in series with the cap. I would rather agree with John that it is better to avoid using an output coil if possible for the sound quality reason.

Alex
 
Old 6th May 2007, 10:39 PM   #30
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I think that probably many (and surely me) are not at all sceptical about these output inductor theories.
Quite contrary, I look forward to this alchemy turn into chemistry.
 

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