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21st April 2007, 07:08 AM  #1 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2007

Discrete Op Amp Ideas for a Preamp
Many, many years ago I built a JC2 clone based on the schematics in the "Audio Amateur". Since then I have learned a few things, including how to run HSPICE. For those of you who have not yet learned this tool, I highly recommend it if you ever plan on doing any design.
I am desiging a preamp that is conceptually a followon the the JC2, in that it will use discrete op amps. Since I have a large LP collection, it will include a MC prepreamp stage as well as a line amp stage. Here is a brief preview of the design. * Reed relays for all signal switching * Satellite power supply to minimize magnetic interference * MCpreamp with En less than that of a 100 ohm resistor * MC preamp O/L BW flat to >100 KHz, C/L BW flat to >1 MHz * Teflon caps in signal path , including RIAA network * 1% RN55 metal film resistors throughout * MC preamp distortion < noise floor up to onset of clipping * Line amp capable of driving 100 ohm load * Line amp distortion below noise floor * Ability to drive up to +/ 20V peak I have already simulated the MC preamp, and with the use of low noise matched PNP/NPN devices, there appears to be no problem meeting the noise floor. Additional En reduction may be possible by paralleling input devices (En is reduced by RSS sum). The next step is the line amp. Since the line amp's source impedances (volume control, for example) are in the 510Kohm range, it is right on the cusp between BJTs and JFETs in terms of noise floor at the input stage. I will need to evaluate both types of devices to determine the best choice. Stay tuned... JCM
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JCM 
21st April 2007, 07:20 AM  #2 
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Join Date: Sep 2005

Brilliant!!
I like your ideas, especially the relays. I hae a design soon to go on my website. 4 inputs, tape in and out, Burr Brown output stages ( balnced and unbalanced). Reed relays used throughout including tape monitor. Looking forward to your progress. Ricky. 
21st April 2007, 07:51 AM  #3 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Prague,Czech Republic

Do you have some practical results except simulation ? Why " satelite " caps ?  final sound much more depend on premeditaion of connection... BTW, 100 Ohm driving capability is lowly demand  try to think about ten Ohms..

21st April 2007, 08:17 AM  #4 
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Join Date: Apr 2007

Upupa,
The ability to drive 100 ohms should be more than sufficient. A typical preamplifier load consists of the resistive input impedance of the amplifier (typically 20 K ohms) plus the paralled capacitance of the amplifier's input devices and the capacitance of the cable,. Most small signal transistors have Cb < 100 pf. If we assume a common coax such as RG58U, it has a capacitance of 100 pf/meter. The transistors, therefore contribute a capacitance equal to approx 1 meter of additional coax. So, even if we were to drive 10 meters of cable (a lot for a home stereo system), the capacitive reactance Xc would be approx 7K ohms for a 20 KHz signal. Xc = 1/(2*pi*C*f). Add to that the paralleled amp DC resistance, and you get a load of approx 5K ohm. If we repeat this procedure for 20 Hz, we get an load impedance of approx 20K ohms. There is an insertion loss difference between 20 Hz and 20 KHz caused by the variation in Xc with frequency, but it is very small. You can calculate it by considering the ratio of voltage dividers at 20 Hz and 20 KHz. (100 ohms driving 5K vs. driving 20K). If we use a DC Rl of 20K, then the insertion loss difference between 20 Hz and 20 KHz is 0.13 dB, which is below audability, at least for me.
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JCM 
21st April 2007, 08:23 AM  #5 
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Belgrade

Try bistabile relays digitaly triggered, for all switching
siemens had one model with all gold contacts, I am not shure but i think that Zetler now have the same model, but different marking... cheers
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21st April 2007, 09:00 AM  #6  
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Gone on holiday again. back soon.

Quote:
I too think that 100ohm driving capability is adequate for a preamp. It will allow direct drive of 600ohm inputs as well as all those higher than that. It implies a source impedance of under 10ohms, again exemplary. The output power requirement (4Wpk) will need medium power output transistors in the range 6W to 10W, what do you have in mind? Upupa, can you explain why we should need even more current ability out of a preamp? (+20Vpk into 10r = a 20W ClassA power amplifier)
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regards Andrew T. Sent from my desktop computer using a keyboard 

21st April 2007, 10:29 AM  #7 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Prague,Czech Republic

By our experiences ( PMA, me and most of Czech DIY comunity ) is very low output impedance ( less than ten Ohms ) mandatory for really good listening... BUF 634 ( or similar ones ) or more precisely discrete one ( like WJ's diamond buffer ), connected into feedback loop of opamp give best results. Also TPA 6120A is excellent....Or you can make it all discrete, but very low output impedance is mandatory, belive or not...

21st April 2007, 11:05 AM  #8 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague

I agree with Upupa, that low distortion link output stage with high current drive capability (like 200mA  500mA) gives the best listenning results. With output impedance defined by series resistor 5 ohm  10 ohm.

21st April 2007, 05:09 PM  #9  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Gone on holiday again. back soon.

Hi,
+20Vpk into 100r is 200mApk. where's the problem? Are you confusing load impedance with output impedance? Quote:
But Upupa said Quote:
Quote:
So I say again. A stage designed to drive 100ohms to +20Vpk should do an excellent job of driving all inputs of >=600ohm. Give me a reason why the output stage should be designed to drive +20Vpk into 10ohms.
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regards Andrew T. Sent from my desktop computer using a keyboard 

21st April 2007, 05:17 PM  #10  
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague

Quote:


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