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Old 7th March 2013, 07:48 PM   #31
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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No luck importing tab delimited zma files from WT-II. Says it can't find the format.
Thought it would be fun to use the overlay and compare that way.

These are standard tab delimited with no header. Maybe it wants the header?
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Old 7th March 2013, 08:06 PM   #32
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Just wondering the results, used HOLM to do a impedance plot. Of course, the offset is wrong. The impedance curve looked good, but the phase curve was ugly compared to the other tools. That concerns me if it has issues measuring phase across a resistor. More testing.
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Old 7th March 2013, 10:48 PM   #33
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I had done a test with the newer version and using a 1Kohm resistoer the result was about 7 to 10 percent higher than what LMSBridge was predicting and the 220ohm resistors results were much higher.

Then I discovered that LMSBridge was giving similar errors when I switched resistors.
And wasn't giving me the proper inductance value that I had confirmed with VA either,It was half of what it is supposed to be!!!

It matched VA in earlier tests!

Then I tried VA and it came up with the proper inductance value but the real resistance values were way off.

It is funny that the ole 933Mhz P3 seemed to give the most consistent results but VA is too CPU heavy for it when in the RLC mode and I sometimes lose control of the program but not the system system.

Also at one point I was getting little to no bobble in VA as well and now every thing is going nuts and I haven't changed anything really, at least the interface is the same.
Except using a faster CPU and I haven't tried the other sound cards yet.

Now I am going to have to back track in order to find the best combination that worked good.
One was using my PSC706 16bit Phillips card.
I would like to use the X-FI card as it has even better quality parts on it as well as a higher sample rate.

But at this point the name of the game is consistency with accuracy.

Anyhow the program does give you a good idea of what the curve is in a general range and the peak seems to be on the proper frequency as well.
This does help me a lot as far as not having to guess at everything.

But, There maybe no substitute at this time for complete accuracy other than manualy plotting each frequency point and recalculating each of the impedance's to verify them.
I do know that VA and and LMSBridge do a great job in finding the actual values of inductance and capacitance, VA being the most accurate as it didn't give different values just because I changed the reference resistor to a different value.
Now I am not sure about LMSBridge!!!!

What went wrong?.....I don't know !!!
I guess I have some back tracking to do!!!

Eventually I will build a higher resolution hardware version but I don't have enough parts in my inventory just yet (mainly precision opamps).

I think the software versions work good under certain conditions.
But finding those conditions has proven trying at times.

More testing to do here as well!!!

jer

Last edited by geraldfryjr; 7th March 2013 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:19 PM   #34
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Well, for accuracy, I'll stick with my Woofer Tester II, but for beginners and low budget, I want to help them get this working well.
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Old 8th March 2013, 01:41 AM   #35
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Yes, I agree !!!
I am on a 0$ budget as well and this program is a great start.
Actually, it works pretty good for what I am doing anyhow!!

It is definitely a far cry from my cheapy digital meter that doesn't even display the same values when switching ranges or at frequency's off from the typical line voltage frequency's of 50hz to 120hz!!!!
It is one of the main reason's I am forced to have to build my own measuring equpiment.
At least I still have my trusty Hitachi V-425 scope that is still accurate after almost 30 years!!!!

Cheers !!!

jer
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Old 8th March 2013, 01:47 AM   #36
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The problem I found with speaker workshop was that it is not consistent. It has glitches which change the start of the impulse by up to 20ms!! every now and then it jumps and you get a spurious result.

I also recently found with light coned drivers that it is way off on the resonant frequency. Not sure why, but it probably explains why my tweeters seemed to be so far off (1100 as opposed to 700Hz) on their resonant frequency when I measured them.

I found SW to be very good for measuring caps and inductors (with 8 ohm reference resistor) It's not so good at measuring resistors.

It would be great if someone grabbed the source code and continued it's development, I stopped using it for FR measurements due to the problem with the impulse not staying put. and now use REW for impedance measurements and T/S calculation. If these problems could be fixed it would be a brilliant (free) piece of software. I do still use it for the crossover simulation, which it does very well, with a few more caveats. It's important to compare the final curve with the original driver to make sure you haven't magically gained a few db in sensitivity

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Old 8th March 2013, 06:26 PM   #37
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Today I thought I would give my newer machine another try with its stock motherboard sound system.
It is running Win7 and my sound cards are not compatiblen with the OS.

I used the older original version of SimpleS with a 220ohm and 1000ohm reference resistors and the results between the two are very close!!!
Much closer than yesterdays tests!!!!!

Go figure?!!!!!

Anyhow the impedance measurements with the 1Kohm were much closer to the predicted inductance made by LMSBridge and the 220ohm values were not very far off as well as displayed in the graph.

And for some reason LMSBridge and VA agree with each other on this machine when VA is cooperating.

I was hoping to use one of my older machines dedicated to do these types of measurements.
But it doesn't look like I am getting very good results from them for some reason.

I will look more into this as time goes by as it is very time consuming to re do every test and setup each different configurations of hardware to compare them against each other.

I am satisfied at the moment of how the software works and I have yet to try the new version on this particular machine (4.8Ghz FX-6300 in a Asrock 990FX Extreme 4).

I do hope that I find out what the issues are and I will eventually.
I am wondering if the OS has anything to do with it as well as compatibility with the sound cards sample rates.
I do know that VA is much more stable In XP then it is in XP64 and Win7.

To many combinations to think about!!!

All I care about is consistency and any values that are off can be worked out in the project currently being worked on, at least for me.
This measurement was made in High Def mode at 96Khz.

I commend the person's involved in writing this piece of software and keep up the good work that you are doing to improve it.
All I can do is test it and report back to you my results.



jer
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Last edited by geraldfryjr; 8th March 2013 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 8th March 2013, 10:11 PM   #38
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It did not come up on my laptop. Fine on my desktop.
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Old 8th March 2013, 10:38 PM   #39
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Jer, does SimpeS have a calibration function? In speaker workshop you measure two known resistances and tell it what they were (norm is 16 ohms and 4 ohms) and it then re-calibrates itself. I think this is a key to it giving accurate passive component measurements.

Also have a poke around in your sound properties and make sure all "effects" are turned off. You may find that by default they are on. Also make sure no programs such as Itunes are running, as these can also turn on the effects, any of which may compromise your measurements

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Old 8th March 2013, 11:36 PM   #40
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Yes, It has a calibration sytem built in to the program.
And made sure of the levels and integrity of my signals using a scope as well as useing VA to verify them.
Sometimes if I have the wave volume control to high this can cause some clipping of the top peak on my system.
Once everything is verified to be normalize then I proceed with the calibration while still monitoring the signal with a scope.

I wanted to use an older machine to do theses measurement becuase I am testing step up transformers for ESL's and if for any reason should some HV get past my test jig it won't put my latest greatest machine at risk.
Although I did start out using it for these measurement and has not failed yet (thankfully)!!

I made sure that any extra noises and effects are turned off as well.

My main concern is not getting consistent results using different resistors
and even more so different sound cards as some do perform better than others but only by a small margin.

So what happens when you get a result and use another type of card as the next guy how accurate will it be.

For instance the on board sound chip of the Compaq 933Mhz P3 is a AD1885 and it produced the same results as my higher quality PSC706 Phlilips sound card.
And then when I popped the X-FI card into the very same machine the results were very different and was when I discovered the huge difference using assorted reference resistors.
Thinking it was a driver conflict I started doing fresh installs of the OS as well.

Here is the Overlay plot of when I discovered this the two smaller Yellow curves is the AD1885 (jagged one) and the PSC706 card (smooth yellow one) and the X-Fi card as the red trace and one orange trace.

Every thing else was the same except for swapping the cards and maybe a higher sample rate on the X-FI card at 96Khz.

I don't remember now exactly what sample rates I used on each of them but I think it was 48Khz expcept for the X-FI.

I should have wrote down the details of this graph as there are four tests on it.
I think two of them were with the X-FI card with two different reference resistors.

At this time I was stunned at the results and then still learning how the overlay system in the program works.

jer
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