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Old 25th February 2010, 12:02 AM   #21
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff View Post
Agreed. OldDosOrcad is fantastic - another member here!

When I used it professionally, some 25 years ago, it was a true revolution.

Only problem is my stack of keyboard macros depends on Ctrl, Alt, Shift with Function keys to give 30 instant functions. Great when XT (remember them??) keyboards had 10 function keys on the left.

Such keyboards are unobtanium - Northgate died as well.
There is a following of the old "clicky" keyboards:
ClickyKeyboards

You can buy modern production:
Unicomp Keyboards

I'm typing on a classic IBM AT clicky!
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Old 25th February 2010, 01:47 AM   #22
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btw, if your install disks of DOS 6.22 are too getting old to maintain a DOS system (after all floppies do have a limited shelf life), there is a well maintained DOS replacement called FreeDOS. it even has FAT32 and long file name support. for running DOS software on a linux box, i've found that DosBox is excellent, and can emulate many different types of video hardware, and will even open up .ISO files as a virtual disk. since i run quite a bit of windows software in WINE, i use the WINE virtual C: drive as the DosBox C: drive as well. there is also a windows replacement which is free, but it's in alpha development, it's called ReactOS. so the trend in free software doesn't stop with linux, there are DOS and windows replacements out there as well... if you have a fast machine with tons of memory and (preferably) multi-core processors, there are also virtual machine packages out there so you can actually operate two or more operating systems simultaneously
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Old 25th February 2010, 02:04 AM   #23
Ivey is offline Ivey  United States
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Default mtripoli:

Where do you purchase your "paper phenolic boards" from.

I am having a hard time trying to obtain single sided paper phenolic boards. All I am able to obtain are FR4 boards.

Can you help me out with some infor.

Orcad is good stuff. But I will stay with Autotrax and Protel schematic in DOS.

Take Care

Ivey
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Old 25th February 2010, 02:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivey View Post
Where do you purchase your "paper phenolic boards" from.

I am having a hard time trying to obtain single sided paper phenolic boards. All I am able to obtain are FR4 boards.

Can you help me out with some infor.

Orcad is good stuff. But I will stay with Autotrax and Protel schematic in DOS.

Take Care

Ivey
I did a quick Google search and found a couple of places (here's one if you are in the USA): PCB Boards.

However, the real response is in short: China. Most of the design stuff I do is manufactured in China and the material is sourced there. I do prototypes on FR-4 that end up on paper phenolic. I'd offer this; if you do not have a very (very) high volume disposable (say something like a sound chip in a greeting card) kind of application stay away from the stuff. It is crap from the word go. I've seen so many good designs go through hell because of the stuff over the years (I'd make a list but I'd be here for 20 minutes). In moderate volumes (~100K) the difference in price between FR-4 and paper is small. The difference in performance is huge.

Mike Tripoli
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Old 25th February 2010, 02:53 AM   #25
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by "paper phenolic", do you mean the light yellowish or tan colored phenolic that is most common in consumer electronics power supply boards? i found some here:

http://printedcircuitstore.com/

i've found that i prefer G10 for pc boards. i use water when cutting and drilling. it keeps the dust and the glass slivers in one place, rather than in the air and all over the workbench (or in my fingertips... ouch). G10 doesn't crack easily, and doesn't carbonize easily, and is a lot stronger mechanically (but it does wear out drill bits faster)
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Old 25th February 2010, 11:52 AM   #26
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Interesting that the old orcad for DOS is still out there, Orcad layout for windows is now defunc and is not supported by Cadence any more, they want users to migrate to a light version of Allegro. For the simple stuff I think the older style packages are great, easy to use, manual routing etc and actually used to enjoy laying out boards on them, now some of the high speed stuff is days of entering contriants and then letting the system do its stuff. I'm lucky (!) in that I have a full blown Cadstar, Orcad, and Allegro, though we are phasing the Allegro designs out to Cadstar.
If anyone is thinking about going surface mount, I would recomend having at the "CAD library of the future" and IPC-7351 footprints, the 'most' land patterns are great for hand soldering, and would give commonality between designs done by different people.
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Old 28th February 2010, 12:01 PM   #27
Ivey is offline Ivey  United States
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Default We're missing the subject here.

OrCad is a great and wonderful PCB/Schematic Package.

But!!

It is not free. Cadence paid a lot of money for that trade mark. And even thou it is not supported. You can not use it for a commercial venture without a license. Specially if you are making a lot of money from it.

What this Thread is trying to do, is to find software packages that we can use, to make money commercially, without having to purchase a license.

To me, my past time is a hobby. A hobby is an activity were you invest 5% of ones weekly income, based upon the minimum wage income. Which is approx. $15.00 a week. Or $60.00 a month.

I feel that if you are spending over $720.00 a year on your past time. You are doing something very wrong.

I discovered that most people approach their past time which an R & D mind set. Where they spend thousands of dollars in its pursue. I can afford to do that. But I will not. It is beyond the point of being a hobby then.

That is why, if you take time to look around, and just observe. You will find hundreds of manufactures at most hobby events, because the hobby goers are now doing most of the R & D, that was once done by the manufactures themselves.

Today, we use Diptrace, PADS evaluation software, Eagle, Target 3001, and host of others. Because, we are their R & D lab rats, that find the bugs and sometimes, fix them ourselves. They act like they are doing us a favor, but in truth, it is we, who are doing them a favor.

Good or better PCB packages, sells themselves. Not the other way around. We allow ourselves to be moved by the hype, and do not use our minds.

Good software, will always be free. Because the inventor knows that it will sell itself. It serve the people. Not the other way around.

Fire is a great tool!!!!

God made it free.

Fire sells itself. Not the other way around.

Take Care

Ivey
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Old 28th February 2010, 02:17 PM   #28
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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PCB design tools

A pretty comprehensive list of PCB design software that is out there.
Not missing the point, but for Commercial usage there isnít a lot of free software, for hobby use and non-profit there is a limited choice. There is some open source software, and packages like PCB123 provided by PCB manufacturers.
The other packages such as Eagle, Tangent 3001 are start of at low prices, but with limited capabilities, ok for a lot of the designs on these forums, but start doing even basic digital and the lack of layers and low pin count would mean a higher prices licence. For price if I was setting myself up to do commercial designs Eagle or Tangents full blown version is IMO affordable. For commercial design a certain level of function is going to be required, DRC/DFM checks, ECO from schematic to PCB, preferably ODB++ output etc, having the right toolset will save time and help avoid errors which can be very costly. Also having a package that if run on a commercial basis means it going to be developed and supported over the years, again useful if you want to run things commercially.
For the hobbyist there are numerous choices, but again most tend to be limited, which isnít a problem for the majority of designs.
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Old 1st March 2010, 01:30 AM   #29
Ivey is offline Ivey  United States
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Default You hit the nail on its head, there Marce:

That's my point!

Today's PCB software makers, know that digital is growing and growing. And that most of the future designs are in digital, with graphics.

I am a Star Trek Nut!!!!!. But I am a insane "sane" nut. I collect old cell phones. Only one type thou. Nokia's LP99's. I have twenty so far. I need six more. I paid from a $1.00 to $5.00 dollars each.

People today, do not realize that cell phones do not use CPU's, but that they use GPU's. But GPU's are just as powerful as CPU's, yet they have graphic abilities.

I have tied 6 GPU's together and can operate 5 PIC's with control over all functions. I have 64 megs of memory, in simms 1 meg sticks, the old 486 type stuff.

I can view each section and operation of every section the machinery and equipment, via the graphic mode of the GPU. Plus I can operate a microwave communication station and ping signals off the spacestation and satellite that orbits the Sun.

I have collect 1 gig of memory in simms 1 meg sticks to use with my PICs and GPU's. Using Pascal, I use little memory.

So what is my goal. To build a real "central Star Trek control center", with consoles and all.

I have come across one real good free PCB software package. It is Ranger 2. It is 16 layer, unlimited pins, and unlimited size; and I have started to create more footprints for it. It is given away by Seetrax, out of England.
It is windows base.

Take Care

Ivey
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Old 3rd March 2010, 03:43 AM   #30
iko is offline iko  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB2 View Post
There is a following of the old "clicky" keyboards:
ClickyKeyboards

You can buy modern production:
Unicomp Keyboards

I'm typing on a classic IBM AT clicky!
Came across one not long ago, at work, thrown in a corner. Love the clicky feel, always had, so I was very happy with the find. Good thing I don't share the office with anyone.
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