
Home  Forums  Rules  Articles  The diyAudio Store  Gallery  Blogs  Register  Donations  FAQ  Calendar  Search  Today's Posts  Mark Forums Read  Search 
Software Tools SPICE, PCB CAD, speaker design and measurement software, calculators 

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.
Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving 

Thread Tools  Search this Thread 
28th November 2009, 05:05 AM  #1 
diyAudio Member

BJT Hfe Curves
Hello everyone.
I have a funny question I need to ask... I've seen 2 general types of Hfe graphs in BJT datasheets: 1: Hfe remains constant until a point where it rolls off. 2: Hfe starts low, then rises steadily until it crests and rolls off. I need to know if these two types of graphs are taken by the same method, or whether they are different, as I have been trying my hand at designing models for BJTs. A possible distinction is that 1 is "pulsed" current gain where the device stays at the same temperature all along, where as 2 is continuous current gain where the transistor heats up with higher Ic and therefore the Hfe rises as indicated with temperature. Thanks,  keantoken
__________________
The Kmultiplier rail filter! = The Simple Kuartlotron Superbuffer! Need something built, repaired or modded? PM me and ask what I can do! 
3rd December 2009, 05:43 PM  #2 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Minnesota

First, let me clear up some confusion. Often time people use the terms hfe and Beta(B) interchangably, but that is wrong. Strictly speaking hfe is the small signal AC current gain. It is given by hfe=change in ac collector current/change in ac base current. Sometimes people define Bac as being the same as hfe which is ok I suppose. In addition Bdc is given by Ic/Ib. So Bac and Bdc are not the same.
If you look at figures 11 and 15 the Onsemi data sheet for the 2N3904 you will see different curves for ac and dc current gains. Onsemi seems to define the ac gain as hfe, and the dc gain as hFE. Now, the general answer to your question is condition 2 and device heating effects are not included. Pusle testing will be used to avoid significant self heating. Note that there are 3 different temperature curves in figure 15. 
3rd December 2009, 06:01 PM  #3 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: algeria/france

with a logarithmic vertical scale for the Hfe , you can
have a curve that is fairly flat at first look... 
3rd December 2009, 10:43 PM  #4 
diyAudio Member

Thanks for the information.
But... Why are the 2N4124 and 2N3904 datasheet graphs pixel copies of each other!? Scroll down to the graphs and compare yourself... I seems these graphs are just placebos to make it look professional; do they really convey any accurate data? http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/...ata/2n4124.pdf Almost the only difference is voltage ranges and noise... I've been thinking for some time a curve tracer would be a worthwhile investment.  keantoken
__________________
The Kmultiplier rail filter! = The Simple Kuartlotron Superbuffer! Need something built, repaired or modded? PM me and ask what I can do! 
4th December 2009, 12:07 AM  #5 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Minnesota

I don't know, but obviously they are the same die. What does this have to do with your original question about Bdc, Bac, hFE and hfe?

4th December 2009, 12:13 AM  #6 
diyAudio Member

It has nothing to do with the original topic, but I do have another question.
How is the measured small signal AC and DC gain any different? I'm talking about the Ic graphs. Beta is always Ic/Ib isn't it, so how can the graphs be any different? At 1KHz, any Cj would be negligible... Thanks for your patience, Sawrey  keantoken
__________________
The Kmultiplier rail filter! = The Simple Kuartlotron Superbuffer! Need something built, repaired or modded? PM me and ask what I can do! 
4th December 2009, 09:32 AM  #7 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cape Town

Hi all
Re: DC current gain (hFE) and smallsignal current gain (hfe): Say you measure Base current = 0.01mA, Collector current = 1mA. The DC current gain (hFE) is 100 (Ic / Ib). Then you increase Base current to 0.011mA, and the collector current rises to 1.12mA. The small signalcurrent gain (hfe) is 120 (change in Ic / change in Ib). Datasheets normally give hFE and sometimes hfe. I don't remember seeing "beta" used in ages. Beware: often textbooks and articles will use the terms differently or ignore the difference between DC current gain and smallsignal current gain. e.g. I just looked up "beta" in Wikipedia and it says DC current gain = beta = hfe. Then I looked up hfe and it says: "hfx = hfe = The currentgain of the transistor. This parameter is often specified as hFE or the DC currentgain (βDC) in datasheets." Hmm  maybe there's a difference between the "proper" academic definitions and normal usage. Anyway, the example at the top of this post reflects the normal usage in datasheets. Hope that adds more clarity than confusion Cheers  Godfrey 
4th December 2009, 11:58 AM  #8 
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cape Town

Hi keantoken
I've also noticed the two "flavors" of curve mentioned in your first post. First, many years ago, I saw datasheets for BD139 and BD140 where the BD140 had the "starts flat" curve and the BD139 had the humped curve. That got me thinking that the BD140 would be better than the BD139 for a VAS in an amp. i.e. use an NPN input LTP and a PNP VAS, rather than the other way round. Your post awhile ago somewhere else about biasing transistors on the hump of the curve for minimum distortion got me thinking about this again. I got to wondering if PNP devices are inherently more linear in their current gain than their NPN complements, just as they tend to be slower. I googled around for some datasheets now to check that out. Couldn't find any BD139 or BD140 datasheets with curves, but the TIP3055/TIP2955 curve below shows the effect. Then I decided to look at BC547 and BC557. The curves below from Fairchild show the two shapes you mentioned but blow my theory totally. Their NPN has the flat curve and the PNP has the humped curve. (and yes  I've at least triple checked to make sure I didn't mix them up) The Motorola data sheet shows a "hump" curve for the BC547, though! Unless somebody screwed up their datasheet, it looks like the "same" part from different manufacturers can be totally different. Looked at another two BC547 datasheets to check. The Vishay one is almost a classic "hump" shape, but flattening out at very low Ic. The Philips one is almost a classic "starts flat" curve, but droops down at very low Ic. That's four manufacturers with four different shape curves Maybe more modern / exotic transistors are more predictable? Maybe it's just that the decadesold ones have been refined differently by different manufacturers over the years? I like cheap nonexotic parts, though because: a) They're cheap and easy to find b) You don't have to worry about counterfeits meh! Cheers  Godfrey 
4th December 2009, 05:58 PM  #9  
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2003

Quote:
I've addressed this issue to some extent on this web page. In terms of SPICE modeling, it's best understood in terms of the socalled "Gummel Plots". The rationale of these plots comes from the assumption that, for an ideal BJT, I_{C} vs. V_{BE} is an exponential function. If beta (=I_{C}/I_{B}) were constant over all collector current, then I_{B} vs. V_{BE} would also be an exponential function for this idealized BJT. This idea is combined with two properties of logarithms. The first is that ln(x) and exp(x) are inverse functions, that is, ln(exp(x)) = x. Therefore, for the ideal BJT above, plots of ln(I_{C}) and ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE} should look like straight lines. This is shown in Figure 8 on the page linked above. The second property of logarithms that comes into play is ln(x/y) = ln(x)ln(y). Since beta = I_{C}/I_{B}, ln(beta) = ln(I_{C}/I_{B}) = ln(I_{C})  ln(I_{B}). That is, ln(beta) at each V_{BE} value can be interpreted as the difference between the two curves. Now have a look at Figure 9. The GummelPoon model shows that ln(I_{C}) vs. V_{BE} has a bend at high currents. This is what models the beta reduction at high currents. The model also shows that ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE} has a bend at low currents. This is what models the beta reduction at low currents. At both low and high currents, the curves are closer together, therefore beta is less at these extreme current values than it is at a mid range of currents. Now, suppose at some "middle current" value (that is, some middle range of V_{BE}), both ln(I_{C}) and ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE} have become straight lines  that is, they don't bend. These lines will be parallel, thus beta will be relatively constant over this range of currents. Further, the parameter BF will be exactly the value of beta in the region where beta is constant with current. Consider another case, in which there is no middle range of V_{BE} values where both ln(I_{C}) and ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE} have become straight and parallel lines. That is, as we start from a low V_{BE} value and work our way up, ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE} is still bending up, while ln(I_{C}) vs. V_{BE} is already starting to bend down. For this case, there will be no middle range of collector current for which beta is constant. Further, for such a BJT, the BF parameter will be greater than the actual maximum beta. This leads to another interpretation of BF. Suppose we take the linear portion of these two curves and extrapolate them so each curve (ln(I_{C}) and ln(I_{B}) vs. V_{BE}) looks like a straight line. IOW, we ignore the bends. Then these curves become lines, and the difference between these lines at any and all V_{BE} values is ln(BF). The key is that for BJTs that don't have a region of constant beta, there is no range of V_{BE} values for which the actual curves look like parallel lines. Some great examples of these two cases are the MJL3281A and MJL1302A. The PNP has a region of I_{C} where beta is relatively flat, while the NPN never gets to a constant beta. This is reflected in the BF values of the two, relative to the actual measured maximum beta. 

5th December 2009, 10:49 PM  #10 
diyAudio Member

Thanks for the info Andy and Godfrey. I found it annoying myself to find that different manufacturers gave different curves. I think some questions can only be answered by someone with a curve tracer.
Andy, what you say confirms my experience. To model a humpier transistor, Bf must be higher than the actual value. Thanks everyone,  keantoken
__________________
The Kmultiplier rail filter! = The Simple Kuartlotron Superbuffer! Need something built, repaired or modded? PM me and ask what I can do! 
Thread Tools  Search this Thread 


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
PHL Curves  anybody have?  Bill Fitzpatrick  MultiWay  3  30th November 2012 10:52 AM 
5125 UL curves anyone?  dowdylama  Tubes / Valves  2  10th October 2008 11:43 AM 
DIY UL curves  Bandersnatch  Tubes / Valves  10  1st August 2008 11:00 AM 
Derive Triode Curves from Pentode Curves?  dsavitsk  Tubes / Valves  3  14th May 2007 06:10 PM 
Curves, curves, and more curves  CarlyBoy  Tubes / Valves  5  1st December 2006 10:11 AM 
New To Site?  Need Help? 