| G |
Would someone be kind enough to run a sim on the "hemptone" FR8 mounted in a MLTL? The specs are below. I realize the cabinets will be large but I'm hoping not too large.
Specifications and Small Signal Parameters
Voice Coil Impedance: 8 ohm
Resonant Frequency: 40 Hz
Frequency Response: fo - 20k Hz
Sensitivity: 93 dB SPL (Average 500 - 2.5 kHz, 1w, 1 meter)
Rated Power: 45 watts
Program Power: 90 watts
Magnet Weight: 566 gr (20 oz)
Net Weight: 1.5 kg (3.3 lb)
Fo: 40 Hz
Re: 6.2 ohm
Qts: 0.45
Qms: 3.5
Qes: 0.53
Vas: 88 Liter
Mms: 12 Gram
Xmax: 1.9 mm
No: 1.10% |
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| tinitus |
I think Scott has shown one in a BIB thread, and if i recall correctly it is HUGE, or maybe it was GM ?
But theres also Scotts BVR "spawn, BRUCE"(Planet10), if its been tested ? |
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| VadimB |
Hi Gavin,
The T/S parameters you have are from the manufacturer. Here is what I've measured on the drivers I have - see attached picture. The pair measured pretty close to each other.
I've tried to model MLTL for them, but did not like it. I don't remember all the details at this point. The model is on my home PC - will look it up when I get home. I think the main problem was - it required a heavy BSC attenuation, which kills the efficiency. I end up with the horn, that doesn't need the BSC at all and is about 95dB efficient. The box ended up smaller than MLTL. You can read about the design here:
http://www.e-speakers.com/pdf/vadim-infopack.pdf |
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| Scottmoose |
I knew someone was going to ask this... ;)
One quasi MLTL. 14.5in wide, 8in deep, 48in tall (internal dimensions). Zdriver 10.25in. Port 2in up from the base on the front panel, 3in diameter, 3in long. Stuff 0.2lbs ft^3 from the top 24in down. Increase the port length to 4in to roll things off a little more. As we've gone wide-baffle with this, it's unlikely to need much in the way of baffle-step compensation, if any at all. Step-point occurs at 285Hz (assuming 3/4in material is used for a 16in wide baffle, external), which should be rapidly countered by room-gain, particularly if positioned near a rear wall. If they're pulled out a ways into a big room, and it bothers you (unlikely I suspect, then parallel a 2.6ohm resistor with a 1.4mH inductor in the hot lead, which shouldn't cripple efficiency too badly. BTW -give the edges a decent round-over -at least 1in.
Using the manufacturers claimed T/S parameters gives the following FR.
Scott |
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| Scottmoose |
And using the above measurements supplied by Vladim (thanks for that) the same cabinet gives the attached. Both are rolled off to compensate for room-gain BTW, as I always do. I can't see much that's bad about either to be honest. Port velocity stays well below the mach, so no noise, the FR is smooth, impedence isn't too bad, plenty of sensitivity.
Of course, the slight downside is that they're not exactly small boxes, but as they're wide baffles, which are best near rear walls & corners anyway, they shouldn't be too obtrusive either with a little creativity. |
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| VadimB |
Scott,
Using a wide baffle for this driver seems like a very good idea. AFAIR, I've modeled 12" baffle for MLTL and it looked worst. Also, I probably used the term BSC a little wrong. On top of usual baffle step, this driver has a rize in response from about 800 Hz to about 3kHz - all of it's own. I've used BSC term, because you can fight both of those in the same way.
The far-field FR of the driver mounted in my horn is attached. Please, disregard anything below 500-600 Hz.
By adjusting the size of the CC and horn damping, it was possible to mate a response of the horn mouth to the direct radiation from the driver, to end-up with some resemblance of a flat overall FR.
Another problem I remember with MLTL for this driver, was excursion, limiting the input power to a few watts anywhere below 100-80 Hz. Did you check your sim for that?
Vadim B. |
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| GM |
Greets!
I see Scott's been busy, but I started this in the wee hours waiting on the 'Sandman', so might as well post it:
First things first, Qts = 0.461 and Sd is unrealistically large to reach a 12 g Mms, so like the previous version, this one likely has a considerably higher Fs than listed. Fortunately that's not normally a big deal with a TL or MLTL......
Max flat MLTL:
L = 57.5"
CSA = 144"^2 (recommend 15.25" W x 9.43" D)
zdriver = 21.48"
vent = 5" dia. x 2.5" near/at the bottom
Sim is with minimal damping around driver and if 'boomy' in-room, either more damping and/or a longer vent can be used to roll it off. At 8", it sims identical to this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...tamp=1175270122
GM |
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| Scottmoose |
Nice... wish I could get 'em as good as that without damping. I try nbot to go above 0.25lbs ft^3 now. Kills dynamics.
Excursion on mine was within Xmax to ~41Hz. Below that it rises a little, but nothing to get too worried about given our acuity drop-off. As sensitivity is fairly decent, it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I prefer horns myself, but not everyone likes / wants them, (as evidenced by the request) so I reckon the MLTL is the next best option. |
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| VadimB |
| quote: | | Excursion on mine was within Xmax to ~41Hz. |
Scott, is this at 1W input power?
What happens if you increase power to 10W?
Vadim |
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| GM |
Greets!
Yeah, for sims I try to limit it 0.2 lbs/ft^3 to just below the driver, though for high Q drivers have to use a bit more and for drivers that require really large vents, then a more labor intensive ML-horn is preferred since its vent harmonics decay faster. Still, none of these will handle much power, so for the 'headbangers' who don't mind the limited LF of a live rock, etc., concert, a boosted mid-bass is the 'Hot Ticket':
GM |
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| Scottmoose |
Has it's uses... ;) That'd be me then... but only on occasion.
Yup, 1w. Boosting to 10w won't help matters much, but as GM points out, these aren't intended for full-on rock & I wouldn't care to feed them that much anyway. Maybe more like 5. It's sensitive enough to give decent SPLs at most listening positions without distortion being a particular concern. If more's needed for headbanging, then either Greg's modified version above, or a horn is what is required. (Or if big SPLs and minimal distortion, period are the goal, then a 2-3 way Altec VOTT. No FR unit is going to do the loudness / dynamics & low distortion thing than a multiway). Excursion in MLTLs is primarily an issue an octave above Fc, making them with FR units a middling choice for this sort of music. |
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| G |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scottmoose
Has it's uses... ;) That'd be me then... but only on occasion.
Yup, 1w. Boosting to 10w won't help matters much, but as GM points out, these aren't intended for full-on rock & I wouldn't care to feed them that much anyway. Maybe more like 5. It's sensitive enough to give decent SPLs at most listening positions without distortion being a particular concern. If more's needed for headbanging, then either Greg's modified version above, or a horn is what is required. (Or if big SPLs and minimal distortion, period are the goal, then a 2-3 way Altec VOTT. No FR unit is going to do the loudness / dynamics & low distortion thing than a multiway). Excursion in MLTLs is primarily an issue an octave above Fc, making them with FR units a middling choice for this sort of music. |
As long as they will handle a little Frampton or Zeppelin they will work just fine. Thanks guys. |
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| G |
| quote: | Originally posted by GM
Greets!
I see Scott's been busy, but I started this in the wee hours waiting on the 'Sandman', so might as well post it:
First things first, Qts = 0.461 and Sd is unrealistically large to reach a 12 g Mms, so like the previous version, this one likely has a considerably higher Fs than listed. Fortunately that's not normally a big deal with a TL or MLTL......
Max flat MLTL:
L = 57.5"
CSA = 144"^2 (recommend 15.25" W x 9.43" D)
zdriver = 21.48"
vent = 5" dia. x 2.5" near/at the bottom
Sim is with minimal damping around driver and if 'boomy' in-room, either more damping and/or a longer vent can be used to roll it off. At 8", it sims identical to this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...tamp=1175270122
GM |
GM I assume that I could just build a slot at the bottom with the same volume as a 5"x2.5" cylinder instead of using a round port? |
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| GM |
Greets!
Assuming you mean a full width shelf vent = 15.25" to get ~the simmed FR, the theoretical end correction will actually require less vent area (~0.875" height) to get the vent long enough for a 0.75" baffle thickness. Since this pushes it well beyond the ~9:1 aspect ratio that defines a resistive slot vent it may 'flop' it over to a larger area, so unless you're prepared to tediously experiment with different size/length vents, best to stick with a round, square, or modestly rectangular vent centered 3.5" from the bottom as used in the sim.
GM |
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| resident |
hmmm
......that's a nice project! And not to big as a BIB.
G,
From where will you buy the drivers?
In Europe I can find Hemp only from here
Is this a Hemp? :D |
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| G |
| quote: | Originally posted by resident
hmmm
......that's a nice project! And not to big as a BIB.
G,
From where will you buy the drivers?
In Europe I can find Hemp only from here
Is this a Hemp? :D |
That is a hemp. I'm rather jealous of the choices you have on that side of the pond when it comes to FR drivers. Sheesh. |
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| Estes |
VadimB,
I've built a horn and a number of bass reflex and MLTL enclosures for Fostex and Lowther units. I have not been totally happy with the results from either design. I have gotten closer to the presentation I like with the Visation in open baffle, but it is not quite there yet. The open baffle does not fit my listening area due to the space requirements. The midrange does not have much flesh and blood and it does not balance with the low end, although I like it better than the Fostex or Lowther designs.
I have heard a lot of great reports about the Hemp driver and was going to build a bass reflex enclosure when I found your Hemp Horn Project information package. What I have read is that the Hemp driver is more balanced and not as 'hot' in the midrange as say the Fostex or Lowthers. Could you assess the differences of the Hemp driver in the Horn Project compared to a Lowther in a Medallion horn enclosure?
Also, I would like to ask any other DIY Forum member that has built the Hemp Horn Project for their impressions. I would likely be using either a 30W p/p Cayin integrated or a Trends amp. I would primarily listen to classical and jazz.
John |
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| Scottmoose |
John -have you tried running the B200 with cardioid bass help? The baffle doesn't have to be overly large then.
This is very rough, but you could give something like this a shot. Baffle about 16in wide x 42in tall, with two triangular side pieces about 14in deep at the base tapering to nothing at the top. Get the Viaston about 12in down from the top, and mount a 15in woofer near the base (give it about 3in of breathing room). Wire and XO in series at around 150Hz or so, using the natural roll-off of the drivers to help. There've been a few designs of this nature, particularly in the UK recently, and I can vouch for how effective they can be. One, with the FE167E and Eminence Beta15 provided amonst the finest sound I've ever heard, period. Not bad for a couple of relatively inexpensive units. The B200s would also benefit from a set of Dave's phase plugs -see www.planet10-hifi.com which will massively improve their midband and treble (no voodoo either -it's measureable). |
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| resident |
:eek:
ooooh come on guys. There are a lot of interesting designs on these forums.........
Scottmoose,
any pic of sth like what are you suggested? Just to see how it looks like. Seems very good.
I'm confused now. I almost have decided to build the wide baffle MLTL but this OB looks a good idea, too. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
The T/S parameters you have are from the manufacturer. Here is what I've measured on the drivers I have - see attached picture. |
What were the measurement conditions?
Given that 2 people can measure the same driver's T/S with different kit, and both get different, equally valid, results, it is important to know this.
dave |
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| resident |
I read very good comments too.
Not a "nice" (low WAF:D) design but a good approach for an OB! |
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| hempacoustics |
Hello everyone just thought I would drop in for a bit.
This is for G and everyone else I noticed that G's specs and he used the model Hemptone. Im not sure where G got his drivers but that not our specs nor our model name the old version was the FR8DIY the new version is the FR8C.
There already has been knock offs so beware.. inlcuding people claiming to have hemp based cones.. using Manilla Hemp. Manilla Hemp is not acutally Hemp ie Cannabils nor does it have the same properites..
Furthmore for the guys on the other side of the pond..we just offically opened HEMPAcoustics Europe which will be distributing ot our current and future dealers all across Europe.
For now we have a couple they are listed on our website with quite a few more in the netherlands, Denmark the UK opening soon..
Just a head up.. and another thank you...
Hemp Acoustics |
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| VadimB |
Sorry, I've not looked at this thread for couple of days. Here are some answers:
Dave:
1. Drivers were measured with SoundEasy, using MLS. I had a 500 Ohm resistor in series with the driver for all impedance data. Vas was determined using delta mass method with about 30 gramms added to the cone.
2. FR measurements were done as installed in the horn, as described in the Info Package.
Estes,
I am not sure the Hemp is better balanced by itself, than other drivers. There is still a rize to Fr from 1 to almost 8 kHz. It looks like the new FR8C is better in this regard, but I don't have them yet...
The point of my horn design was to use (relatively) high Q of the Hemp driver to balance lower mid and higher bass against this rize in the upper midrange. I think it does what I've hoped for without any BSC.
That said, when I compare these horns with my reference system (based on Manger), I can clearly hear the remaining colourations. They are only apparent in direct A/B comparison. On their own the horns sound very pleasant (to me).
I also listen mainly to classical and jazz and that's what was used to voice them. Currently I drive them with Fisher X-100-B restored amp with nominal 24 wpc. 12 o'clock position is enough to sound VERY loud in my room. The lower midrange is full of meat in this arrangement. You better keep them away from back wall and corners with the amp like this. With SS amp (I've used Adcom) the sound is still full, if a bit driyer. Moving speakers a bit closer to the back wall practically brings the balance back. In either case the imaging is very good.
I've heard Lowthers in some kind of horns several years ago, but not sure they were Medalions or not, so I'll refrain from comparisons. I've heard several different Omega BR speakers using the same driver and I think the horn is better, sounding more dynamic and live, with reacher midrange. Obviously, my opinion is not impartial, also I frequently tend to suspect my own speakers with problems others don't hear.
VadimB. |
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| salas |
| MLTL with notch filter sounds dynamic, deep, balanced, and transparent enough. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
1. Drivers were measured with SoundEasy, using MLS. I had a 500 Ohm resistor in series with the driver for all impedance data. Vas was determined using delta mass method with about 30 gramms added to the cone. |
This uses the sound card's output to driver the speaker?
If that is the case you will have the same low V situation i have with Fuzzmeasure: the low voltage computer based. T/S measuring kit produces higher Fs, Qts, & lower Vas values than techniques that use higher voltage drive. Factories will usually provide data measured in the 1 V range, vrs computer lit in the mV range. If the factory data isn't different than measured data then something is likely wrong.
In a sealed box the parameter changes pretty much wash out, but in tuned boxes one has to keep in mind the changing parameters as the wick is turned up.
dave |
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| VadimB |
Dave,
The output of sound card goes to the power amp in my SoundEasy set-up. The resistor is connected between the + of the amp and the + of the driver. SoundEasy uses two channels: Reference probe is connected before the resistor to the output of the amp, the "In" probe is connected to the driver, after the resistor. The resistor can be as low as Re, but I preffer the higer values, to be closer to a constant current source. This is a classic T/S set-up dating back to T and S themself. After all, T/S models are valid for a "small signal parameters". I did compare the data with 500 Ohm resistor and with 12 Ohm resistor, and they are close enough, if the voltage across the driver is kept close.
SoundEasy alows to do a non-linear models of the driver, but I have not gone that far yet.
In my experience, drivers measure close to the "small-signal" at higer signals, after they are broken-in for a while.
VadimB |
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| VadimB |
Salas,
to be able to really compare the two, we need to put them together, side by side, and listen. Unfortunately, we live on the different sides of the Ocean. I would love to visist you, but taking the horns with me would be a bit of a problem. I've listened to medium size BR with Hemps though, and the difference in dynamics was quite apparent. Othervise, they did sound balanced and transparent.
VadimB |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
The output of sound card goes to the power amp in my SoundEasy set-up. The resistor is connected between the + of the amp and the + of the driver. |
I'm waiting for Chris to add that capability to FM (it does use both channels but only the output from the puter) ... what voltage across the speaker are you setting (in the flat trough area of the driver)?
dave |
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| salas |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
Salas,
to be able to really compare the two, we need to put them together, side by side, and listen. Unfortunately, we live on the different sides of the Ocean. I would love to visist you, but taking the horns with me would be a bit of a problem. I've listened to medium size BR with Hemps though, and the difference in dynamics was quite apparent. Othervise, they did sound balanced and transparent.
VadimB |
Would be nice but a bit of a hassle I guess! I didn't want to post vs horn, just wanted to let MLTL aspiring builders know, thats good. Better than TL and BR guises, that I have tested. |
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| resident |
ok since I don't like to go with a horn (to complex to build), it's my first fullrange project and Hemp seems a good driver :D I think I'll build the wide baffle MLTL that has been disgussed here.
Can you tell me which dims to follow? Scott's or GM's?
Which are the differences? |
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| VadimB |
| quote: | | what voltage across the speaker are you setting (in the flat trough area of the driver)? |
For impedance measurements, it really depends on the size and power of the driver. For something like Hemp 8, it would be around 350 mV across the driver.
FR measurements are done without a resistor. "Ref" probe goes on the input of the driver, "In" probe is connected to the output of mic preamp. For this I keep the output power at 1W, if the mic is at 1m. Radio Shack SPL meter is used alongside for an absolute SPL scaling.
VadimB |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
For something like Hemp 8, it would be around 350 mV across the driver. |
The factory measures for the Hemp Acoustics 8, likely done by Dan Wiggins, were probably made with 1 V (these seems to be a loose/semi-standard).
dave |
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| salas |
| quote: | Originally posted by resident
ok since I don't like to go with a horn (to complex to build), it's my first fullrange project and Hemp seems a good driver :D I think I'll build the wide baffle MLTL that has been disgussed here.
Can you tell me which dims to follow? Scott's or GM's?
Which are the differences? |
Can't tell who's dimensions you may prefer, bcs we made it different, normally wide for an 8inch. And used a notch incorporating some BSC. So its another thing altogether. Plus followed my own measurements using WT2 on well run in Hemp. |
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| resident |
salas,
you didn't understand my question!
I didn't ask which I will prefer but as a newbie I'd like to know the differnces btw a bigger MLTL (GM) than a smaller one (Scottmoose).
Notch filter is not always needed. It depends on the room and the speakers placement....
Can you post your Hemp project's dims?...........................
Looks nice in the pic. |
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| salas |
| I can't post dims or filter because its property of a friend who owns a small scale specialist company named Silvernote. I just helped out. But its good. Its smaller than the wide baffle schemes proposed here. These must work better, not needing BSC. The 'Solo' as it is called, measures 30Hz-18K +/- 2dB in room. A major audio press journalist here used it as reference to publish tube amp group tests. |
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| VadimB |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
The factory measures for the Hemp Acoustics 8, likely done by Dan Wiggins, were probably made with 1 V (these seems to be a loose/semi-standard).
dave |
Dave,
The factory data, like those posted, were published by Hemp, probably, a year before they anounced merger with Adire. On the other hand, Hemp Acoustics is a spin-off from a very large and reputable company and they certainly know how to measure drivers. You can see that by the format of the data in their PDF files.
That said, whatever the method you use for impedance measurement (even pure analog) - you still need a series resistor. The old analog standard was to use a 1000 Ohm resistor and have 1 V across the driver + resistor. In this case, voltage across the driver at 1 kHz is under 10 mV.
I generaly keep the output of the amp around 1 W of power. With my 500 Ohm resistor this translates to about 320-350 mV across the driver. Different drive levels will no doubdt result in some difference in T/S parameters.
On the other hand, I'm sure you know that T/S is not everything. Over the years I just developed a filling on what I'm going to get, designing for some T/S. That's why I try to keep my T/S measurements consistent in all my projects. This definitely does not mean that my way of measuring them is the best, or the only right one.
There was a very interesting and useful discussion about that in the SoundEasy user group about a year ago, between John K and several other people. Lots of data were presented. Try to search the archive, or I'll see if I saved some of that when I get home.
VadimB. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VadimB
On the other hand, I'm sure you know that T/S is not everything. |
Oh yes i know... one of the reasons why i like to point out, in general, that they move... there are those that do belive they are everything.
dave |
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| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by resident
Can you tell me which dims to follow? Scott's or GM's?
Which are the differences? |
Greets!
At the risk of sounding biased, my guideline is that the bigger the cab, vent, the more tuning flexibility it has, so based solely on this, mine would be the choice. If you have a relatively small room and/or will be putting them near corners though, then Scott's might save you from having to do any vent testing.
Your call......
GM |
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| Scottmoose |
| Agreed. GM's will ultimately be the more capable enclosure (bigger is better) once tweaked to your taste / room requirements. OTOH, mine will be closer to a 'plug & play' box in a smaller space, so as ever, YMMV. Frankly, if you don't mind juggling the vent dimensions a bit to tune to your room, then I'd build Greg's. |
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| resident |
My place is a little bit small, 10"x25" so maybe I must go with Scott's? What do you say?
The difference isn't to big though............. GM's isn't too much bigger :rolleyes:
Just in case, I'll build GM's, the only tuning is the port's length? |
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| Scottmoose |
| Right. Increase the length to roll it off if you feel the bass is a little heavy / boomy due to it overloading your space. 10ft x 25ft isn't what I'd call 'small' though -by UK standards that's a pretty decent size. |
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| resident |
Due to the new thread that has been posted about Hemp's "non pure Hemp" construction I'm thinking not to buy a Hemp driver ,yet. I'll wait until the company will standarize their products......
So what about a wide baffle MLTL with FE207? Or MJK's MLTL?
I need bass that's why I have stucked with an 8". If you believe that I'll have enough bass with a 6.5" and better mids than the 207, not a problem..... please help!
I CAN"T DECIDE WHAT TO BUILD :rolleyes:
Scott,
Do you believe that my room has a pretty decent size for a BIB? |
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| Scottmoose |
Heck yes! You've a choice really -6 1/2in or 8in units, though I'd limit the height of the cabinet in both cases to 70in or you might things a little lively. And they'll cream any MLTL on dynamics, which FR drivers can always use a helping hand with.
FWIW, I'd probably go with the FE168ESigma. Use the Sl dimensions I posted on the Zilla site, but increase line length to 138in (70 in tall cabinet) and Zdriver to 30in. Job done. I love the FF165K too, but it's better suited to smaller rooms, so the Sigma would be my choice of 6 1/2in driver for your environment. Alternatively, if you want an 8in driver, the FE207E, again same height & driver position as mentioned above, with the Sl dimension off the Zilla site should be OK. |
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| GM |
Greets!
So many choices, so little time. :sigh:
If you have a closet you have a big enough space since a pipe horn has gobs of tuning flexibility, though obviously you reach a point of diminishing returns WRT usable Fp. Anyway, ideally you'll put them in the corners of a 10 ft wall and sit ~15.45 ft away. With no major room gain kicking in until the 20s, I'd stick with the 8", though all things considered, one of the HE versions seems a better choice.
GM |
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| resident |
Build a Hemp in a BIB was my first choice. But when I realize that I need a cab around 20" deep (minimum) I thought that they're too big for my room.
Also, the distance btw the drivers will be around 5.5-6ft.
I'd like to place them as far as possible..........
Now my ME2 (ariel) are at 6.6ft. |
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| Scottmoose |
| Well, the hempster might be a trifle large, aesthetically speaking. That's a taste thing though. OTOH, the Fostex 8in range don't need such a big enclosure, so the 206/7 or even the 208ESigma (with additional supertweeter as it's a WR rather than FR unit) should suit you nicely & they've loads of excursion too. Fostex have not built up their formidable reputation by building poor drivers. ;) Follow GM's advice -believe me, he, er, knows what he's talking about. And then some. :) |
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| resident |
:rolleyes: Ok what do you say to go with the FE207? (or the 206? - which arethe differences?)
Not a too big BIB and a good choice for an 8in.
Also if I can live with them in my room I can go with bigger ones in the future. ;)
Hemp's are good as said but with what is going on right now with the cone materials I'm a little bit afraid to buy them.
I'll wait for a Tone Tuby........... :D
P.S.: We got a little bit out of topic in this thread. I'll post new messages in the BIG TC's BIB thread................
Sorry to the author :angel: |
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| GM |
Greets!
Well, I recommended a HE 8" as a compromise between LF output and the 'magic' of a smaller driver's mids/HF, so for Fostex there's only the FE206E, FE206ES-R, FE208ES AFAIK and I don't have any personal experience with these, so you'll have to rely on others for mid/HF performance opinions.
GM |
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