| So, 1W is not equal to 1W? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Bad silver |
:wave2: Hi, someone probably had already asked this question but I want to make sure that I understand it correctly:
Lets say you are looking at middle class amp (ALPINE, JL, PG ect...) and you find out that if outperforms a high end amp ( McIntosh, Symphony, Zapco ect…) according to manufacturer's specifications. It produces more power, less THD+N, greater stereo separation, higher slew rate, higher damping factor ect… ect … ect…. Or, for example a middle class amp might not necessary outperform a high end amp, but be as good in all specs.
So, the price difference stands for the fact that 1W is not equal to 1W? :confused: |
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| richie00boy |
It's not just about watts. Figures can be distorted.
And there's other factors like build quality, component quality, attention to detail, brand name snobbery etc. |
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| Bad silver |
Why don’t people just choose an amp based solely on its ability to amplify signal? :confused:
In contrast to cars, homes, and boats, high-end amplifiers are too cheap to reflect your social status... |
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| richie00boy |
See above. Maybe they want/need something more robust than the cheapest offering of the same power. Maybe they want it to last longer. Maybe they are just happier knowing the product is very well designed and/or made.
Plus numbers aren't everything, there are still some judgements that only the ear seems to be able to resolve, until test methods are sufficiently developed. |
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| ChocoHolic |
1W is not equal to 1W, because one audio watt is most often no watt. ...worst watts seem to be the car watts...
Forget all shiny advertising stuff. Listen, measure and try to evaluate the ruggedness.
ChocoHolic ...quite annoyed audio watts... |
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| ChocoHolic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
In contrast to cars, homes, and boats, high-end amplifiers are too cheap to reflect your social status... |
...and the worst thing is... Girls don't care at all about amps. :D :D :D :D
Damn I really made everything wrong in my life :clown:
...and still refuse to learn from that... :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: |
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| dangus |
Some amps were designed as "cheater" amps: they'd have a modest rating at 4 ohm loads, but have power supplies and output devices that make them usable into much lower loads, for much more power. This was because some car audio competitions used the 4 ohm rating to determine the competition classes.
So, there could be an amp conservatively rated at 50 watts (25 W x 2) at 4 ohms at 12 volts, but if it were 1 ohm stable, it might do more like 250 watts total bridged at 14.4 volts. Build it 1/2 ohm stable and get almost 10 times the rated power, RMS.
With respect to the original question, you may find that the middle class amp has a more imaginative power rating than the high-end amps. |
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| Bad silver |
| quote: | Originally posted by richie00boy
Plus numbers aren't everything, there are still some judgements that only the ear seems to be able to resolve, until test methods are sufficiently developed. |
So you are basically saying that 1W made by a cheaper company sounds worse.
But amplifiers are not cd-players or equalizers - they were meant to amplify signal but not to color it. How can one amp sound better than another if everything it does is amplifying?
I lived in Europe and I know that people in UK are obsessed with high end :cool: , but don’t you think that there is a lot of propaganda out there? Perhaps, intended for people with love of music but little Physics knowledge? :headbash: |
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| poynton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
:wave2: Hi, someone probably had already asked this question but I want to make sure that I understand it correctly:
Lets say you are looking at middle class amp (ALPINE, JL, PG ect...) and you find out that if outperforms a high end amp ( McIntosh, Symphony, Zapco ect…) according to manufacturer's specifications. It produces more power, less THD+N, greater stereo separation, higher slew rate, higher damping factor ect… ect … ect…. Or, for example a middle class amp might not necessary outperform a high end amp, but be as good in all specs.
So, the price difference stands for the fact that 1W is not equal to 1W? :confused: |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
.................don’t you think that there is a lot of propaganda out there? Perhaps, intended for people with .............little Physics knowledge? |
you said it !!!!!!! |
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| richie00boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
So you are basically saying that 1W made by a cheaper company sounds worse. |
Not necessarily, if you read my post again there are other factors influencing the price.
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
But amplifiers are not cd-players or equalizers - they were meant to amplify signal but not to color it. How can one amp sound better than another if everything it does is amplifying? |
Sorry but clearly you know nothing about amp design. If all something did was amplify it would have 0% THD. And as I said before there are aspects that the tests commonly done today do not always reveal.
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
I lived in Europe and I know that people in UK are obsessed with high end :cool: , but don’t you think that there is a lot of propaganda out there? Perhaps, intended for people with love of music but little Physics knowledge? :headbash: |
That is definitely true, but there is no doubt in my mind that two amps that measure similarly can sound different. That's not to say all will, but similar specs is not a guarantee of same sound. I've experienced it myself. |
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| sr20dem0n |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bad silver
So you are basically saying that 1W made by a cheaper company sounds worse.
But amplifiers are not cd-players or equalizers - they were meant to amplify signal but not to color it. How can one amp sound better than another if everything it does is amplifying?
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In an ideal world you would be right, an amplifier is supposed to just amplify the signal without coloring it in any way, but that is hardly reality. Cheap, poorly designed amps do far more than just amplifiy the signal, many of them corrupt it in the process.
It's not that cheap amps just amplify the signal and more expensive amps magically introduce some hidden X factor which makes them sound better. The ideal amp amplifies the signal without changing it in any way (other than amplitude). Good, well-designed amps get much closer to reaching that goal while crappy amps fall far short by introducing various forms of linear and non-linear distortion, having an insufficient frequency response, or adding noise, pops, etc to the signal.
Many amps have EQing built into the pre-amp stage as well. |
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| DigitalJunkie |
| quote: | | So you are basically saying that 1W made by a cheaper company sounds worse. |
That depends.
But,what is almost certain,is that the 1W claim is inflated.
Most cheaper car amps use 'tricks' (higher supply voltage,etc.) or even flat out LIE about their power output.
Or they rate it at 90% distortion,or something lame.
The average "brand-X" 500W amp is probably closer to half that rating,In reality.
EDIT: There ARE amplifiers that are rated fairly,or even conservativly,and are well built pieces of equipment.
But don't ever expect to see them at Circuit City. |
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| Bad silver |
| quote: | Originally posted by sr20dem0n
It's not that cheap amps just amplify the signal and more expensive amps magically introduce some hidden X factor which makes them sound better. |
hahahhahahahaha lol
In the real world can anyone justify $500 difference between these amps? :o
$300 JL audio 75Wx4
http://carsound.com/review_archive/..._3004_chts.html
$800 Synopsis SA50X 50Wx2
http://www.carsound.com/reviews/amps/SA50Xchts.html
Hmm... maybe JL was built by a bunch of "tricky" engineers that cheated all the time, while Synopsis was built by very fair and smooth people... : ) |
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| TO-3 |
Wow. The guys that design the JL amplifiers started the companies PPI and Xtant. There is another company (reputable) but I cannot remember what it is. I'm not saying JL is high-end, but those guys certainly know how to design them.
Another of the 1W to 1W questions is if tube amps sound different before clipping. The topic, though, has been beaten to death with a stick. I personally will stick with my magic soundbetterwhenclipping amplifier. About ready to buy abother one! |
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| sr20dem0n |
I couldn't
I'm not saying a more expensive amp is always justified, but while I couldn't necessarily justify the $500 difference between those 2 amps, I could certainly justify the $500 difference between these two amps:
$130 Boss BL1400 250x2
http://www.millionbuy.com/bosbl1400.html
$616 DLS Ultimate A5 50x2
http://www.mobilesq.com/store/produ...&products_id=60
I guarantee you the DLS will put out more clean power than the Boss, despite it being rated at 1/5 the power, and I can almost guarantee (I would have to hear them both in an A/B to give a 100% guarantee, but I've heard Boss amps before and they sound like trash, so I'm very confident this one will be no different) you will hear the difference between them even when neither are clipped.
Personally, I try to stick to about $.50-$1.00 per watt (actual number is application-specific) for the front stage, and $.30-$.50 per watt for the sub. I find that amps cheaper than this tend to exhibit reliability problems, "optimistic" power ratings, etc, and amps more expensive then this tend to get into diminishing returns. Obviously this are just rough guidelines for myself and there are many exceptions, I'm just trying to describe my mindset on the price that should be paid for an amplifier, so you don't think I'm trying to say that a $2000 front stage amp is actually worth it, especially in a crappy listening environment like a car. |
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| owdi |
You are reading the graph wrong. Those charts are for two channels bridged. IMO, the JL performs better than the Synopsis because it has less distortion. It is a little less powerful, but the difference between between them is at most 1db.
Dan |
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| sbrook |
The very fact that there are so many ways to measure the power output of an amp makes life confusing.
I remember (1970s) when the (mostly Japanese) mass market amps started coming out measuring in PPP (Peak Program Power) and that's when the watt rot set it. I'd previously always used W(RMS) as a moderately reliable way to make wattage comparisons.
12+12W (RMS) was definitely enough to fill a 12 * 12 room comfortably and 20+20 would fill a bigger room and have that extra oomph in reserve to respectably deal with the cannons in the 1812 overture in that setting.
Then PPP came along and suddenly these 12W(RMS) amps had marketing descriptions of 20-25 watts, and 20-25 W(RMS) amps had marketing descriptions in the 60-90W PPP range.
So goodness knows how the different manufacturers were determining PPP because they all seemed different. And now, as somebody pointed out, the numbers are totally fictitious!
Then you add the quality and distortion. I found that most amps that were willing to quote you Watts(RMS) were going to produce a very good sound. Those using PPP usually had higher distortion even at quieter listening levels and the more exaggerated the power claim, the more unpleasant the sound.
As to today, you pay for lots of things ...
The number manufactured affects price dramatically. Mass market is mass cheaper.
The fit and finish of the cabinetry. Good cabinetry is EXPENSIVE.
Quality of controls ... good switches pots, dials etc.
Quality of the components. Nothing quite like the electrolytics that die in about 5 years ... and high reverse leakage.
Circuit design.
PCB design ... is it manufactured well, or thrown together.
So, by and large, if you compare like watts with like watts (in the same measurement system), more money is generally going to buy you more quality. |
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