| SY |
OK, I've taken the plunge and after 40 years of hardwiring and perfboards, I am actually trying to learn to design simple PCBs. But Eagle is giving me fits; I can't even seem to manage to do the simplest things.
First question, and please don't laugh, this is all new stuff to me. I draw a schematic by placing all the parts symbols on the grid. If I understand the tutorial correctly, I am then to interconnect them using the Net command. And that's where my misery begins. If I click on the end of the part lead in the little circle, then move to the bit I want to connect to, the instructions suggest that two clicks ends that net, and I can then proceed to the next connections. That doesn't happen- clicking twice does establish the connection, but doesn't terminate that net. If I click, then double-click, the net visually terminates, but when I give the board command, everything is connected together in one big short.
Please de-stupidify me. |
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| janneman |
Stuart,
I am not familiar with Eagle, but the packages I used have something like left-click to fix a node in the wiring and/or double left to finish it but sometimes you need to do a right-click to get out of that particular wire and to start the next one. Did you try a right-click ?
Jan Didden |
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| SY |
Yes, I did. And with some more diddling, I found that a single click followed by a double click seems to do the job. At last.
But many more questions will follow.
BTW, did you get my last email about RIAA noise, or should I resend from my work account? |
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| ashok |
SY , I struggled the first few hours with Eagle. Never thought I'd be able to use it , but it turned out to be not bad at all.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Net command. To connect pads all I do is left click on the "wire" ( \ ) symbol on the panel on the left and then left click on the starting pad and move to the end pad and left click again. To stop there totally I press the " Esc " key or double click the left key.
Everytime you left click the track stops where the cursor is and you can move in other directions from there . Left click at some other point or pad and then move on . To completely stop the track press the Esc key or double click the left key.
Remember to select what kind of track you want from the selection shown on the second bar on top of the screen. Like 'any angle' , 'right angle bends', '45 deg angle bends' etc. You can also select the track width in a window somewhere on top. Check which layer you are on . It should be the top or bottom layer depending on your board type ( single or dual etc ).
Ashok. |
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| SY |
Heh, the instructions explicitly say not to use wire for connections, but use net. I think the guy who wrote the manual and tutorial used to work for Microsoft.
I'm just doing single layer. I think.;) |
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| ashok |
SY , it says you can use the Net command only in a schematic .
I was talking about the "Board" and manually placing parts on the board and wiring them up manually.
You are probably drawing out the schematic .
Cheers,
Ashok. |
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| SY |
Exactly.
Thanks much for the help! |
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| heater |
In the schematic editor I use wire (the / icon)
Left mouse click on a component terminal to start the wire.
Left click on another terminal to make that connection.
Now you can continue with that wire to another terminal OR if you click again in the same terminal it will finish that wire there. Not even a double click, you can do it slowly.
You can also start and end wires by clicking on existing wires and a junction will be made there.
Same works in PCB and it will draw a routed connection as you go.
In PCB using "signal" will get you an unrouted connection.
I never you the "net" option in SCM, no idea what it does. |
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| scott wurcer |
| I have to laugh, we had a similar conversation over lunch. I decided to use PCBexpress' mini-board service. The software is dummer, but easier on the brain. The schematic capture makes some nice looking output too. I did two preamp ideas and mike-capsule replacements (.6" round board). Both worked first time, needed a good cleaning though. At $59 for three day service, I still think it's the best deal. Now I just have to figure out how to cut out the little round boards. |
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| SY |
| I was using Eagle so that I could generate a standard Gerber for Advanced Circuits. The PCBexpress could be a better solution if it's easy enough for an old fart to understand. And you're even a little older than me. |
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| andy_c |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Heh, the instructions explicitly say not to use wire for connections, but use net. I think the guy who wrote the manual and tutorial used to work for Microsoft. |
Hi SY,
I'd recommend at least looking into FreePCB. I struggled with trying to learn Eagle, but it seemed non-intuitive and clumsy in many ways. I ended up giving up on it. Check out the FreePCB user's guide. It's extremely well written and friendly, and has an excellent tutorial too. The tutorial is complex enough so you can "get in the groove" of PCB design, but not so complex as to be intimidating. The UI is very simple and productive, and creating new library footprints is straightforward and well documented. The software does not have schematic capture, but you can use TinyCAD for that - generate a netlist and import into FreePCB. You'll also need to use the freeware ViewMate gerber viewer to view the gerber files. Also, there's a user's forum with some of the friendliest, nicest people I've seen in a forum anywhere.
Web site is here |
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| rtarbell |
SY,
Have you tried going straight to the PCB layout board (without using the schematic editor first) and placing your parts that way? This is the way I did it; it wasn't so bad for most of my circuits.
Let me just give you a suggestion:
I think you should stay with Eagle instead of PCBexpress or another proprietary program; Eaglelite and Eagle can output Gerber files (which almost ANY PCB house should be able to understand), but PCBexpress gives you a program that will only be understood if you want your boards made through PCBexpress' website. Eagle is more of a "universal" tool in that regard. |
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| SY |
That's why I chose Eagle in the first place, the universality. I avoided going right to PCB layout because that's what the documentation recommended. And that would have been my preference because the circuits I'm laying out (e.g., adjustable Maida regulator) are extremely simple. I'm beginning to think that I ought to do exactly the opposite of whatever they tell me.
Andy, thanks for the hint! |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
That's why I chose Eagle in the first place, the universality. I avoided going right to PCB layout because that's what the documentation recommended. And that would have been my preference because the circuits I'm laying out (e.g., adjustable Maida regulator) are extremely simple. I'm beginning to think that I ought to do exactly the opposite of whatever they tell me.
Andy, thanks for the hint! |
SY,
Unless your circuits are EXTREMELY simple (like two resistors ;-) ) you really should bite the bullet and go via the schematic route. It's pretty infuriating if you get your pcb delivered (or self-etched) to find you made a wiring error. If you use a netlist, and the schematic is correct, there will be no pcb mistakes.
Jan Didden |
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| Nordic |
It took me a while to figure out drawing the schematic, and then to use the routing tool... if you are using the line tool on more then 5% of traces you are doing something wrong.
Even though this would seem the logical drawing tool...
you lay out with jus tthe yellow lines attached, using the ratsnest command to find the shortest routing after moves.... then use the routeing tool...to change those yellow lines to traces, NOT THE LINE TOOL!
In the schematic editor's manula it say somthing about connecting parts to nets, and nets to parts, one of them is the default right way... I tend to put in the little junction dots first and then draw the lines... it gets easy fast enough... took maybe a week or so for 80% to sink in... later on you can use cool tools like change package, and change a 10mm cap to a 15mm one and the par gets updated on your schematic...
Just be strong, and stick with it for a little while... you sure are hardheaded enough when it comes to other things... this time it will have real benefit to you... |
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| SY |
| quote: | | If you use a netlist, and the schematic is correct, there will be no pcb mistakes. |
In theory. Pinkmouse and I have a story about that... and I have some exploded capacitors as a souvenir.
Nordic, et al, I'll try some of the tricks you guys have suggested, but in this particular case, I've got to get these boards done fast so I can't spend a week diddling around with user-hostile software. |
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| anatech |
Hey SY,
I just read this thread because I'm having the same problems. Eagle does not seem to be intuitive to me at all. I'm still struggling to get a small current source PCB done. I've already etched it by hand. :rolleyes:
-Chris |
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| BillH |
Hi, all.
I had some of the same problems with Eagle. One of the other members of the forum recommend Build Your Own Printed Circuit Board by Al Williams. It's a very good explanation of how to use Eagle.
I bought it because I couldn't figure out how to make a copper pour.
Some things I've learned about Eagle:
1. Start with the schematic and use the net command for joining components.
2. Make sure you have a ground symbol connected in your schematic.
3. Use DRC to make sure your wires are connected.
4. The autorouter doesn't work very well, but it's a start. You'll almost always have to do some manual routing. |
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| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by BillH
1. Start with the schematic and use the net command for joining components. |
ALWAYS use the net command to make connections in schematics. In order for the connections to be valid the net must start at one pin and end at another pin. There are a few things you can do to ensure that this happens. The first thing you should do is set the grid to 0.1 inch spacing (should be standard) and make sure all of your parts are snapped to the grid. If a part is not snapped to the grid you can easily fix that. With the move command activated mouse over the center of the part that is off the grid. Now hold down the control key and left click. The center of the part should snap to the nearest grid point. Turning the grid on helps too. I prefer the dots style as opposed to the lines style. The next thing you can do is to turn on the pins layer in the layer display window. This allows you to see where to make net connections. To make the connection simply click the net button, mouse to the first pin and left click, route the trace to the next pin and left click when the pointer is above the pin. As most of you have found out the wire will not end but do not fear! All you have to do to end it is press the escape key. Viola, you're on your way to making thousands of working connections ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by BillH
2. Make sure you have a ground symbol connected in your schematic. |
I don't think this is necessary but some people do. You can use the name command to name nets, and I prefer to name the ground net GND, PGND, AGND, or something suitable.
| quote: | Originally posted by BillH
3. Use DRC to make sure your wires are connected. |
This is always a good idea. You don't want any errors when you go to make a board from your schematic.
| quote: | Originally posted by BillH
4. The autorouter doesn't work very well, but it's a start. You'll almost always have to do some manual routing. |
The autorouter sucks. Don't ever autoroute small boards. 100mm x 80mm is the largest board you can make with the free version of Eagle anyway.
Eagle is more intuitive than OrCAD... You can learn the basic functionality in a couple days if you spend the time on it. Let's not forget that the price is much better too! |
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| Pars |
Brian's advice is spot on. Eagle's schematic editor is picky about the grid spacing... don't take it down below the standard spacing or you will have stuff that looks like it is connected but isn't. You can grab a part and drag it to see if the leads come with it (connected) or not (not connected).
I always use the schematic editor first. I always name nets also, at least the important stuff like GND/AGND/DGND, Vcc or other voltage sources, etc. Saves alot of trouble later on. And yes, the autorouter isn't where you want to go.
Chris |
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| batee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pars
...
I always use the schematic editor first. I always name nets also, at least the important stuff like GND/AGND/DGND, Vcc or other voltage sources, etc.
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How do you name nets? Is there a way to end a net in a label (to show connection to a bus such as a clock)? Or do I have to connect each and every device on the bus using nets and showing the connection in the schematic? I'm looking to clean up a microprocessor schematic?
Bryan A. Thompson
bryan@batee.com |
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| Pars |
| quote: | Originally posted by batee
How do you name nets? Is there a way to end a net in a label (to show connection to a bus such as a clock)? Or do I have to connect each and every device on the bus using nets and showing the connection in the schematic? I'm looking to clean up a microprocessor schematic?
Bryan A. Thompson
bryan@batee.com |
I just click on the Name tool, then click the signal in the schematic that I want to name. And yes, you can (IIRC) use connectors and each signal that is on the same named net will be connected. Here's a schematic that I did this for the +12V in.
Chris |
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| batee |
Thank you Pars.
Bryan |
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| pinkmouse |
| Just got back online, and it looks like you guys have covered all the bases. Eagle does have a steep learning curve, but it's much easier than a lot of programs that have the same functionality. However, in my experience a lot of these powerful programs have slightly different interfaces, and sometimes you need to try several before you get one that clicks with the way your mind works. |
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| RDL2004 |
You might also look at DipTrace. They offer a free version and I have heard good things about it. I haven't had time to try it myself though.
DipTrace |
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| sek |
Hello SY, batee,
Generally, one should never use the wire tool for anything that does belong to a certain potential. The wire tool is for drawing general wiring that should be placed by hand, but it belongs to one and the same potential wherever you use it. That explains the wire glob when crossing muliple of them.
If you want to declare electrical routes of different potential, use a net for each such connection. The name is a little misleading, but that's just because the most simple case of connecting two component pins is a special case of the general net functionality. Nets get a default name that you can generally keep and leave alone. OTOH, you can even label a net (via the label tool) if you fell like it (as I mentioned in the bus explanation). And here shows why a net is a net and not just a wire. You can join different nets together - basically what makes multiple connections a true network. But I don't recommend this for regular signal wiring.
Spreading nets across the schematic is for distributing power, ground, clock etc., without having to draw an explicit connection between two grounds. The way Eagle does this is really that easy: different nets that you connect to, e.g., a ground become all named like the ground symbol you connect to them. Thus, connecting the very same ground symbol to some nets makes them all the same ground. The board will then reflect this by generating "air wires" across this whole net to remind you that the different parts of the net have to get an electrical connection ultimately before the board layout can be considered finished (in general, a board layout is valid when it has no rule check errors and no air wires left).
There's even a bus drawing tool just left of the net drawing tool. Basically, you can draw bus bars where you want them. You can then connect nets to the bus bar and branch them off at any other place along the bus length. Makes it easier to see a bus route by looking at it. You can then name and/or label the bus wires to suit your needs, but it is not strictly neccessary to name them beautifully...
So long,
Sebastian. ;) |
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| cliff |
Having used heavyweight (ORCAD, PADS) CAD years ago but forgottem them, I am trying Eagle for the first time for DIY projects.
One basic problem is that it has the Windows pardigram the wrong way round! It should be select an object (eg Pad) then right click for a list of things to do with it. Eagle insists on selecting a function and then applying it to an object.
Autorouting on anything but dense logic layouts with strict component grids is a waste of time. For analogue, just say no.
How on earth do I pour copper and attach it to a net ???? The Help file gets one into writing scripts - great fun but I don't want to do that yet!
Keep telling myself this is FREE :xeye: |
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| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by cliff
How on earth do I pour copper and attach it to a net ???? |
Click the polygon button in the toolbar on the left side, go to the command line and type in the net name you'd like to give it, and draw the border of the copper pour in your layout. You have to end the polygon exactly where you started. Now click the Ratsnest button and it will render the copper pour. If you'd like to get rid of the pour click the Ripup button and click on the border of the pour. It won't delete the polygon it will just remove the pour. |
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| cliff |
A fast and excellent reply, Brian.
Thanks!:) |
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| kvholio |
There's another approach to this.
Draw your polygon. Press ratsnest. the polygon is created.
Darn, it doesn't connect to the net, it's applying your clearance-rules you set in your design-rules (under Edit- at the bottom)
Go to the buttons on the left, go to the most-left row. the 9th button from the top has the tag "name".click it to select this function.
Click on the net on your board to find out it's name.Dont change it.just press ok or cancel.
Click on one of the lines of the polygon you just created.
Change the existing name to the name of the net you want to connect to.
Eagle will ask you if you want to connect the signals and use a name. choose a name and confirm.
Klaas |
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| kvholio |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
You have to end the polygon exactly where you started. |
Eagle can do this for you.When drawing a polygon, double-click at the last point of the polygon you want to draw.
Eagle will automatically connect that point to your starting-point.
klaas |
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| sek |
Regarding the "Windows" - Paradigm: Eagle is Unix software, ported to Linux, Windows and Mac OS. ;)
Cheers. |
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| cliff |
| quote: | Originally posted by sek
Regarding the "Windows" - Paradigm: Eagle is Unix software, ported to Linux, Windows and Mac OS. ;)
Cheers. |
Then I apologise, but for non Unix users (although I did "grep" around in past times ;-) it does start off being counter-intuitive.
I guess that means that "intuative" is what one is used to. ;) |
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| sek |
| quote: | | I guess that means that "intuative" is what one is used to. |
Exactly, because applying tools to selected objects via the contextual menu is neither a Windows (or Microsoft) invention, not is it standard. ;)
The usual - and actually more intuitive - way in professional tools (be it audio, video, graphics, design, etc.) is: first grab a tool, then use it on an object. Just like in real life... ;)
OTOH, Eagle doesn't implement contextual menus at all, though. Why the manufacturer Cadsoft still does that is beyond me...
S. |
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| cliff |
But while I have your attention .....:D
1) I am used to using a 0.1" dot grid. When I display it I still cannot place components so that a pad sits on a grid point. Some do, some don't and I cannot see the logic.
2) I can't see how to create a board outline. Obviously I can draw a line around the board, but how to get this on all layers? What about registration marks?
Now I see the Unix port and understand - most of the help refers to CLI. Pity as the basic engine is very good. |
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| lgreen |
| quote: | Originally posted by cliff
But while I have your attention .....:D
2) I can't see how to create a board outline. Obviously I can draw a line around the board, but how to get this on all layers? What about registration marks?
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A board outline is done with the 'dimension' layer as far as I recall. Select this layer and draw a trace around the board. It will show on all layers unless you disable viewing this layer. |
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| aparatusonitus |
| quote: | Originally posted by cliff
1) I am used to using a 0.1" dot grid. When I display it I still cannot place components so that a pad sits on a grid point. Some do, some don't and I cannot see the logic.
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The same thing drives me nuts for a day...than I figure it out: if a component in question was place in different grid (like 0.0125"), and you copy it, and you decide to change a grid to 0.1", chances are (8:1) that the new component will be placed in incorrect grid. Switch the grid again to 0.0125", move the component a bit until it fix to 0,1" grid. |
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| sek |
Both questions have been answered (thanks :D).
To add a bit: The grid is also imposed in the component library. If you happen to place a component into a grid that isn't anything like a multiple of the component grid, then the component center will match the grid and the component pins/pads won't! Changing grid after having placed components does also only work with "compatible" (e.g. multiple) grid values (smallest common denominator of any number of grid values in question).
Also, board outlines really only belong into the dimension layer, while registration marks can be placed onto each copper layer, for example. The Eagle distribution contains a couple of "scripts" to accomplish exactly this for you, namely by clicking "File" -> "Run Script" (or clicking the script tool button) and choosing, e.g., "euro.scr". This example script shows you how it can be done. I wrote my own scripts for various board size and registration mark types. You can also draw your favourite dimension outline and layer registrations into an empty board file and "Export..." it into a script file. ;)
Cheers,
Sebastian. |
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