| Fish Chris |
http://www.passdiy.com/speakers.htm
This whole "Transmission line speaker" concept seems incredibly simple in design {if you have time, read all the way to the end, to see the single driver set ups}, and really inexpensive to build (using sono-tube).......
.....However, after a few hours of research, I have not found any guidelines, based on driver specs, for diameter and length of the sono tube ???
Oh.... and why would you have to stand them vertically in the corners of your room ? I think they would look pretty cool strapped horizontally to the top left and right corners of a room :-) ....like big internal fuel tanks or something crazy. Hey, their are benefits to being single ;-)
Anybody here put a sub at one end of a big tube, and get jaw-dropping results ?
Your thoughts ?
Fish |
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| Fish Chris |
don't be scared ;-)
Here's some cool stuff on "Transmission line" sub theory: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu...basstheory.html
How could a bass lover read this, and not have his mind start spinning ?
If TL enclosures are vastly better than ported, band-pass, or sealed enclosures, why are so many people so reluctant to try one ?
As far as I'm concerned, the large, unusual shape, and the fact that hardly anyone is using them, makes them even more attractive to me !
Peace,
Fish |
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| Fast1one |
| Its just the size that gets to people i believe, Dont worry though, Im about to make some full range TLs and a matching TL sub (maybe two) in the next month if things go well....My thread is the Pioneer project in the full range forum :D |
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| Fish Chris |
I have a lot of respect for people who aren't afraid to step out of the box.
BTW, right now I'm fixing to go discuss TL's with an old buddy who owns a stereo shop. I'm sure he has some 12" to 15"s laying around, and certainly a test amp...... So, I might just offer to buy the sono-tube and see if we can play with TL's a little bit. Then, if we hit on something big, I might just have to copy that setup for myself !
Will be following your progress Fast1.
Wishing you luck on your TL.
Peace,
Fish |
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| Fast1one |
| Your from norcal? i was originally from Modesto lol....I now go to Cal Poly SLO full time though...I will update as soon as possible...it all kinda depends on if I sell some car audio equipment soon... |
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| Fish Chris |
Yea'... more specifically, the Fairfield area. I go through Modesto pretty much every year though, on my way to Yosemite.
Hey BTW, my old buddy at the stereo shop was out today, but I plan to go chat with him tomorrow. And you know, the more I think about it, even without any hard and fast numbers to go by, I can't imagine a speaker enclosure type that would allow for easier experimentation, than that of a TL.... Too low... cut some off. Too high... add some stuffing :-) Check with a meter after each change, until you get it dialed in just right.....
Anxious to play with these....
Peace,
Fish |
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| SY |
| I've heard the real ones (NP's). They're excellent, enough so that I'm tempted to stick my JBLs (currently in 10cu ft sealed boxes) in a setup like that just to see how they do... |
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| roddyama |
Hi Fish,
Here is a thread discussing the use of a double (tube-in-a-tube) sono tube design. It has some numbers, both conceptual and actual. |
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| Fish Chris |
pretty cool, although quite a bit more complicated than just a straight tube.
Again, I have to ask..... "Why do these enclosures have to stand vertically ? I mean sure, many of us have 8ft ceilings, but whats wrong with having one of these running 12ft or more, across the upper corner of ones living room.... like above the couch or something ??? I mean... Okay..... So it's big, and odd, and crazy..... Yea'.... That's why it's in Fish Chris' living room :-)
Another thought.... although sono-tube might be easier to work with, and cheaper too, if one were to go with PVC, you can actually get 90, and even 180 degree elbows in every size which PVC is made. I think it has already been proven that bends in a tube have very little effect on the sound pressure waves..... I think I want mine to start from the living room floor, rise to the ceiling, travel across one upper corner of the room, then turn and end up in the dining room ! :-) 24 feet ? No problem :-) LOL
......actually, I just brainstomed a way of putting 90's or 180's in sono tube as well......
Peace,
Fish |
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| Fish Chris |
I just have one dumb question.... What are "the real ones (NP's)" ???
Fish |
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| cyclotronguy |
For the record, Sy's been up to the Pass Labs factory and heard El Pipe-O in full song at Nelson's home.
Also for the record, El Pipe-O and the Klein Horn pairs went to an artists collective in Oakland CA and were set up in an old industrial space down on "the flats" which was turned into a “rave” club.
According to local bay area hyperbole & gossip El Pipe-O quickly damaged the old concrete structure and the performing artists after being severely chaste were run over the horizon and into the sunset by the landlord and angry neighbors brandishing pitchforks and blazing torches.
So ends the saga of El Pipe-O….. perhaps.
Cyclotronguy |
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| Fish Chris |
Exactly the kind of sound system I want in my living room ! ....well, maybe just on a "slightly" smaller scale :-)
Hey cyclotronguy, in case SY misses my question, what are NP's ?
Peace,
Fish |
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| cyclotronguy |
NP's = Nelson Pass.
Nelson (revered here at work as "The Great Pass") would be the father of Pass Labs and before that "Threshold".
Nelson also the head scribe and chief wizard at his alternate persona's "Firstwatt" and PassDIY.
"Back in the day" a cohort of Oscar Heil while at ESS.
Cyclotronguy |
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| Cameron Glendin |
Ive built 2 sonotube pipe subs so far, they are quick to build and sound great.
my ultimate version of el pipo features an industrial 18" 4"voice coiled 98db per watt@ 1 metre, simply siliconed into the 18" tube thats 10 ft long, filled with fiberglass and lives in a 250 seat cinema
The other is a 12" car speaker in a 12" 8ft length of sonotube filled with polyester that lives in my living room.
well worth the effort is my opionion. |
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| dallas |
I have been experimenting with transmission line woofers at home. I purchased the last couple of 12" Shivas(I like the XBL tech!) available. Using 8 feet of 12" sonotube and a few bags of fiberfill it really sounded great,so I made a second. Even better! Tons of deep bass.
Since we are home theater/AV installers here in Minnesota, I was tempted to try the lines in a "real" (meaning paid for) installation. This theater had a 3 feet of space or so behind the fabric Screen Research screen and surrounding GOM fabric "Scrim" wall,so it would be easy to hide the unfinished and pretty ugly TLs. We placed them at 1/3rd points across the front of the room. Initial listening impressions were good, It seemed I could actually use these in a critical (read expensive:) installations. I then applied the automatic equalizer circuit included with the Lexicon MC12 processor. This optional board covers 250hz to 20hz using 10 outputs with 7 point per channel parametric adjustments. Things got much much better. It sounded and felt like a real train was rolling through the theater.
Admittedly best near the microphone placement locations.
Music was fantastic as well It seemed the TLs really benefited from this eq. It now seemed like a solid 25hz or lower was being effortlessly reproduced.
OK, I might consider taking this to another level. I have read the "El-Pipo" article. I could fit the tube on it's side behind a similar fabric wall feeding the 21" woofer the LFE output from the Lex. Then use the same 12"version for the left and right subwoofers.
This might get spectacular!
I was not clear on the length of El-Pipo 12' or 14'? It obviously would be easier to fit the 12. Anyone else experimenting with equalizing TLs?
P.S. I have attached a picture of the TLs during the installation |
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| planet10 |
Do keep in mind that there is even more performance potential in El Pipo... the pipe for the 21" woofer is a tad small to get the most out of it (as would be a 12" pipe for a Shiva)
Anyone who has heard either is, i'm sure, wondering how more could be had from them given how good they already are.
dave |
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| wrenchone |
| Hmmm... I have some 8" Vifa woofers looking for something to do - the "pipe in a pipe" approach sounda interesting. |
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| Lee35210 |
I'm waiting on back-ordered TB 8'' rs to try and roll the baby ones mentioned by NP in the article. Using 6' lengths of 8" SonoTube as a starting point. I knew that old amp (Sunn 6000)I picked up at the thrift store would have a use one day soon..........
Will post pics and results when got something to report |
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| stevodude |
hmmm I'm thinking... nah... yea... nah... YEAH!...
I built a curved screen for my projector, and currently have about 20" round space in each corner, how do these go/sound in corners? ie can I build 2 x tube-in-tube 18" outside tube with 9 feet maximum height in each corner?
and anyone know where I can get some cheapish high sensitivity woofers in australia that will work in a tube-in-tube configuration?
Hehehehe, I'm gonna call call them my t.i.t. woofers :-) |
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| dallas |
Anyone have any insight into a good option for the MCM driver used by Nelson Pass in the "El-Pipo"? I am going to experiment with one at home before attempting using it anywhere else.
Thanks in advance.
Dallas |
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| cyclotronguy |
Were we to do El Pipe-O again; given the lack of large drivers, Nelson and I would use an excess of smaller drivers to good effect.
Cyclotronguy |
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| dallas |
Hey "Hempacoustics" and "El-Pipo" seem to have a connection other than loudspeaker components? :)
This really may be a marriage made in heaven!
I spoke at length with Perry from Hempacoustics. Very interesting and informative. The current 25 Tsuzureko is a custom built product with lots of expensive components,including a Honeywell fabric called "Spectra 1000" for the spyder. He indicates a fairly high percentage do not meet final North American quality control . Adding to the overall cost.
Around $1500 retail.
He is building a new prototype in North America. Quality control would be better and no shipping back and forth to China etc. Might be less expensive as well.
Someone from Nelson Pass's group ordered a couple of the current models.This may be tough to beat. Albeit relatively expensive |
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| tylersphile |
Plan: Reproduce an accurate copy of the original el pipo...
Today I purchased a 24" x 12' length of Sonotube as well as MDF for a baffle/baffle-box. I followed Nelson's reference to MCM Electronics for the purchase of the drivers, but they have been discontinued! I called MCM to see if they could provide other sources or theile/small parameters, but no luck. Has anyone done this with other drivers?
Choosing drivers:
My understanding of transmission-line-driver-pairing is as follows:
1) Ideal Qts of driver between 0.45 and 0.50...
2) High BL (Motor Strength)
3) Low Driver Fs
Has anyone had this experience? Different opinions? |
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| Lee35210 |
Built the smaller ones Nelson Pass mentioned in the article using 6' sections of 8" Sonotube with the Tang Band w8-740p's. WO00W! Bass is clean and DEEEEEP. Used ~2.5 lbs of Acusta Stuff per side and driving with ~200 wpc. Using Reckhorn xover and just dialed in to taste . Have Tru RTA,but too busy listening to music to tune! Great cheap bass!!!!!!!!
All Hail NP!
Will post Pictures as soon as stop listening long enough to post |
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| brookbh |
| Did you build bases for tangbands or what? Begging for pics.:whazzat: |
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| BHTX |
http://www.pyleaudio.com/itemdetail...&model=PDW21250
(Pay no attention to the price on their site, it goes for much cheaper than that!)...
I've been very interested in this woofer as a cheap cost effective solution for various potential projects for quite a while now. Only thing holding me back from trying one is the obvious lack of information. I've emailed them several times over the last several months for some kind of update or any information regarding T/S parameters they could possibly give me, only to receive no response whatsoever. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even understand my question, lol. Sad, sad, sad. I mean, I know it's Pyle etc.. but c'mon!
Anyway, I've seen quite a few people selling it on eBay for months now in the $150 range and less. It's on a few other sites as well for a bit more. I even noticed recently that MCM has it now too.
If anyone with a Dayton WT3 or similar would be willing to give it a shot, I'd be SOOOO grateful, regardless of the outcome.. as long as we get some specs at least. I've got too much stuff to sell in the meantime.. lost WAY too much from taking risks of all different sorts over the last few years, among other things.
I just thought to post it here since it might turn out to be a good candidate for such a project.
Also, I'd be interested in a response to tylersphile's question a few posts up, as well as any other recommended source of info for these relatively simple TL designs. |
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| just a guy |
| quote: | | Also, I'd be interested in a response to tylersphile's question a few posts up, as well as any other recommended source of info for these relatively simple TL designs. |
This is not a direct answer really but...
I wouldn't build anything without modelling it first. Regardless of guidelines or rules of thumb. Especially when it's so EASY and FREE.
Basically these are just straight (not positive or negative taper) end loaded transmission lines. The TL modelling software that comes bundled with the old DOSBOX program does a reasonable job at modelling these. (BUT it's not as super accurate as other software AND I don't really trust it to calculate stuffing). Or you can get some really decent software that is not free.
Try it out and you will find out pretty quickly why I don't like straight tl's. Response is super ragged, especially when the driver is end loaded. Requires LOTS of stuffing to get a somewhat flat response. A more refined line layout with optimal driver positioning yeilds a far better shot at flat response with minimal stuffing.
OTOH, a sonotube pipe with a driver in one end is by far the fastest and easiest way to make a lot of noise. |
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| BHTX |
| quote: | Originally posted by just a guy
Try it out and you will find out pretty quickly why I don't like straight tl's. Response is super ragged, especially when the driver is end loaded. Requires LOTS of stuffing to get a somewhat flat response. A more refined line layout with optimal driver positioning yeilds a far better shot at flat response with minimal stuffing. |
I was just starting to notice this while playing around with one of MJK's MathCad worksheets as I saw your post. :(
On the positive side, thanks for confirming my observations so quickly. ;) |
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| just a guy |
| Since you have the good software anyway, try adding a slight (positive OR negative) taper to the line, keeping ~ the same overall enclosure volume, and move the driver to about 40% of the way down the line. That should provide MUCH smoother response, requiring MUCH less stuffing. Unfortunately it's no longer as easy to build as sticking the driver in the end of a length of sonotube. |
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| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by tylersphile
I followed Nelson's reference to MCM Electronics for the purchase of the drivers, but they have been discontinued! I called MCM to see if they could provide other sources or theile/small parameters, but no luck. Has anyone done this with other drivers? |
Hmm, Google returned this in its typically tiny fraction of a second: http://www.evilserv.com/forum/?id=1068&from=10
GM |
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| Mikey p |
| quote: | | Nelson Pass mentioned in the article using 6' sections of 8" Sonotube with the Tang Band w8-740p's |
Can soneone provide a link to this article? I can't find anything on Google. I have a pair of unused w8-740p's and would like to try this |
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