| AMT-freak |
Is there anybody out there who owns one of those magic ZAP-Filter mk II?
I think the circuit looks quite interesting, and now I'd really like to know which "ultralinear-many-GHz"-BJT's they are using. They call them "Z-Transistor".
So could one of you please have a look at your ZAP-Filter mk II and tell me what the small transistors are marked with? On the pictures, I can only see the marks on the shunt regulator's devices, then the "4F" and "2F" (BC850, BC860) from the current sources, and the "N2" marked parts (FCX491) from the output stage. The rest ist more interesting, though. Let's see if it is all marketing or if they are really using outstanding high quality parts...
Maybe this way we can figure out if the circuit is any good and maybe use it for our DAC projects... I'd also be interested in comments whether there is an improvement in sound which is worth the money you have to spend on such a unit...
Thank you!
Advertisement and schematics are here (danish):
http://www.lcaudio.dk/opgrmat.pdf
Find a high-res picture of the board here:
http://www.lcaudio.de/Tuning/Analog...ter2_1Kanal.JPG |
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| nFORCE |
PMMT491A (Philips parts) SOT23 package = FCX491A
You can go Philips web site to search "BISS" you can get more
Regards,
nFORCE
| quote: | Originally posted by AMT-freak
Is there anybody out there who owns one of those magic ZAP-Filter mk II?
I think the circuit looks quite interesting, and now I'd really like to know which "ultralinear-many-GHz"-BJT's they are using. They call them "Z-Transistor".
So could one of you please have a look at your ZAP-Filter mk II and tell me what the small transistors are marked with? On the pictures, I can only see the marks on the shunt regulator's devices, then the "4F" and "2F" (BC850, BC860) from the current sources, and the "N2" marked parts (FCX491) from the output stage. The rest ist more interesting, though. Let's see if it is all marketing or if they are really using outstanding high quality parts...
Maybe this way we can figure out if the circuit is any good and maybe use it for our DAC projects... I'd also be interested in comments whether there is an improvement in sound which is worth the money you have to spend on such a unit...
Thank you!
Advertisement and schematics are here (danish):
http://www.lcaudio.dk/opgrmat.pdf
Find a high-res picture of the board here:
http://www.lcaudio.de/Tuning/Analog...ter2_1Kanal.JPG |
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| AMT-freak |
| quote: | Originally posted by nFORCE
PMMT491A (Philips parts) SOT23 package = FCX491A
|
Thank you very much, nFORCE :)
Hm, according to the datasheet, those Philips parts are called BISS ("Breakthrough In Small Signal") :)
However, they have a transit frequency of "only" 150 MHz... Their case seems smaller than SOT23 on the pictures... And they should be marked something like "9At" or "9Ap" which is different to what we see on the pictures... Maybe you have the older version, ZAP-Filter mk I?
If they are really using smaller outline versions of the Zetex FCX491A, what about the "ultra linear GHz Z-Transistor" marketing? |
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| nFORCE |
Hi Sir,
MK1 here:
http://www.lcaudio.dk/zfdia.pdf
Yes, the transistor is limit at 150MHz, I think that enough, the spec = ZETEX spec, i.e. I don't know why the begineer stage need TR=1.5G and the final amp stage only need 150MHz.
Therefore the critical path should not in the 150MHz.
Regards,
nFORCE
QUOTE]Originally posted by AMT-freak
Thank you very much, nFORCE :)
Hm, according to the datasheet, those Philips parts are called BISS ("Breakthrough In Small Signal") :)
However, they have a transit frequency of "only" 150 MHz... Their case seems smaller than SOT23 on the pictures... And they should be marked something like "9At" or "9Ap" which is different to what we see on the pictures... Maybe you have the older version, ZAP-Filter mk I?
If they are really using smaller outline versions of the Zetex FCX491A, what about the "ultra linear GHz Z-Transistor" marketing? [/QUOTE] |
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| AMT-freak |
The marks I'm talking about look more like "F4", "F0" or "FQ" in the pictures...
Can anyone help?
Thank you very much. |
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| AMT-freak |
Saw your reply when I had already posted... Sorry.
So I think we are talking about different circuits... The ZAP-Filter circuit has changed completely from mk I to mk II... The new schematic is in the brochure I posted above - without transistor types, though.
Thank you again nFORCE. |
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| Pan2 |
AMT freak,
I havenīt had time to check what those BJTīs are marked with, however I I think we can assume that if you read something at the LC Audio site itīs true. These guys know what they are doing and are certainly not into false marketing.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I use the Zapfilter mk2 together with LClockXO2 in my SCD-XB940.
The improvements with these upgrades where nothing short of shocking.
So the answer on your question;
"Maybe this way we can figure out if the circuit is any good and maybe use it for our DAC projects... I'd also be interested in comments whether there is an improvement in sound which is worth the money you have to spend on such a unit"
You bet! :-)
LC Audios stuff are right up there with the best IMO. And since they use no signal caps and no feedback, the resolution is better than anything I have heard. (talking ībout amps now).
The Aleph5, Gammut D200 and ARCVT100 was not good enough to replace my Zapsolutes. Therefore Iīm very curious on the new XA amps from mr Pass. Maybe this is what I need to better my amps. Or I simply have to go with the latest Zapsoutes mk4.1.
/Peter |
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| AMT-freak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pan
I havenīt had time to check what those BJTīs are marked with, however I I think we can assume that if you read something at the LC Audio site itīs true. These guys know what they are doing and are certainly not into false marketing. |
The ZAP Filter mk II is around 275$, pretty much for such a circuit... Ok ok, they have to pay the engineer and probably won't be selling 100.000's of those boards, but still...
LCAudio products have been discussed at length here already, not all of us seem to like their sound.
What the LCAudio clock is concerned, it's is also quite expensive, yet only a more or less standard circuit with a BFR92A and some high speed logic. The famous KWAK-clock can be built for... say 10 to 20$ ... and seems to be better. At least this is what people say, I haven't yet had an opportunity to compare them.
This of course doesn't mean I contradict you, I just say I haven't heard it yet and want to be sure... Understand the circuit... Check if there is something behind their marketing... Maybe I'll buy a ZAP-Filter, maybe I'll tweak it, or maybe I'll try building a similar circuit myself... Don't know yet. Just don't want to risk much, since I don't have the money to try many different output stages.
So if you have time one day to have a quick look at your board and tell me about the markings on the SMD transistors, I'd be very happy... Of course I understand if you don't want to open a carefully tweaked CD-Player again, but maybe someone else can help..?
Thank you all. |
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| Pan2 |
AMT,
If anyone can build something better than the Zapfilter2 for lesss money I say congrats, I would also do that in such case.
The other readily made boards (of similar quality) on the market cost more as far as I know. So for someone who wants to put down about $400 for Zapfilter + LClock and mod a CDP that can compete (and beat) all or most players out there, IMO itīs a ******* bargain :-)
About the clock. If someone can build a similar or better clock for $20, then go for it. I donīt think everyone can though. So if you want a solution that can be fit in the machine in a lunchbreak that lift your player enormously, then LClcok is a very worthwile investment, and in audiophileterms ($) peanuts. I have read about several people make coments on LClock being as good as or better, then the competition. I have not tried any other clock than LCclock, but I can assure you my jaw dropped the night I installed it.
No problem with open the machine as I did the mods myself, but there is the time issue, and I believe that all I can see is what you can see on the high-rez picture on the LC site.
I bought a SCD-XB940 unheard, knowing I would upgrade it, so the sound of the machine itself was of little interest. Of course I listened to it after I bought it, but it sounded like ****, so I didnīt use it for months until I did the modifications. After the mods it produces (in my set up) the best sound Iīve ever heard. Nothing I have heard comes close to the natural high resolution of the Zapfilter feeding my Zapsolute class A amps, really. I have good speakers also.
The easy way is to send Lars Claussen (LC...) a mail and ask anything you want to know.
Oh.. and if you find a way to mod and better the Zapfilter, please tell me, as if this amazing piece of board can be made better, Iīm in :-)
/Peter |
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| promitheus |
AMT freak I have most of the circuit figured out and I am making some simulations right now.
Do you have a high resolution picture of the board from under?
I am trying to figure out the exact values of the Zener diode that biases the input pair and how the connection really is in the input for non balanced current input. what happens to ground when 4 is shorted?
There is an npn transistor that gives a voltage to the bases of the input pair when the current inputs are into them as common base.
Any ideas are welcome. A version of this circuit with normal parts would be cool. O donīt really like SMD parts. |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi ,
AMT-Freak, thanks for the kind words about the KWAK-CLOCK.
I haver never had a closer look at the zapfilter but in the Lcaudio XO-2 the following SMD transistors are used:
the very small 1Dp and 3Kp
and the larger AA P07.
As most manufacturers have their favorite parts this may be helpfull.
:cool: |
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| fmak |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pan
[B]AMT,
I bought a SCD-XB940 unheard, knowing I would upgrade it, so the sound of the machine itself was of little interest. Of course I listened to it after I bought it, but it sounded like ****, so I didnīt use it for months until I did the modifications.
---------------------------------------
The reason is that the 940 has a fault; hence the very low price. There are vigorous earth current in the unitn and the s/n is lousy. The PS is very noisy and you need to remove multiple grounds. |
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| Pan2 |
Can you give me more info please? :)
I use the output directly from the VC24 chip, balanced mode to the Zapfilter.
The sound is the best/among the best Iīve ever heard but certainly it is noisy (audibly) in redbook mode. No problem in SACD mode though.
Thanks!
/Peter |
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| fmak |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pan
[B]Can you give me more info please? :)
I use the output directly from the VC24 chip, balanced mode to the Zapfilter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you measure the noise level in the 940's PS and audio path, you will find a lot of crud everywhere. No amount of decoupling helped and eventually I found that undoing the ground at the digital output and running a star scheme was the answer. This reduced the noise level appreciably. I also had to shield the signal lines with copper tape.
I think this is a basic design problem as Sony quickly discontinued the 940 which has more inductors than you can imagine in a player.
Can you pl post or email me on your Zap connections as I may try the Zap 1 in the unit?
Fred |
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| Pan2 |
Iīll try to find my old schematic. If my memory serves me I think the Zap2 is connected to pin 26, 27 and 28,29. Itīs possible itīs 27, 28 and 29, 30.
Also, when connected "intuitevely" this way, one channel is reversed. The signal at this place is the first point the DSD/RBOOK is in analog domain.
Later..
/Peter |
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| promitheus |
I have started a new thread on a clone I am making. Who ever has interest can take a look.
Search for posts on Promitheus.
I donīt want to rederect this thread, so search for it please. |
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| promitheus |
| The output transistors have N2 on them. From searching in the internet I found that Philips has these and they are the BFS520 which are RF transistors. NPN 70mA 9 GHz. |
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| LC Audio |
The N2 transistors are FCX491A, chosen for their high linearity, and hfe. The 5 GHz bandwidth, that some users in this discussion room claim we use in our marketing material is NOT for this part, but for the BFR92A used in LClock.
The term Z-Transistor is not even found in connection with any of the products discussed here, we use Z transistors in our The End Millennium Power Amplifier kit.... hmm
How did you mix that one up so much AMT-FREAK :bawling:
:) |
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| AMT-freak |
| quote: | Originally posted by LC Audio
[...] The term Z-Transistor is not even found in connection with any of the products discussed here, [...]
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In the simplified schematics of "ZAP-Filter mk II" (to be found in your CD upgrading catalogue), there is a "Z" next to the output transistors. ;) |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by AMT-freak
In the simplified schematics of "ZAP-Filter mk II" (to be found in your CD upgrading catalogue), there is a "Z" next to the output transistors. ;) |
The diagram can be found at www.lcaudio.dk/zfdia.pdf and
there is no Z next to the transistor. There is a note, though,
that it is a Zetex device. Maybe you have a different version of
the diagram where Zetex is abbreviated to Z?
BTW what is a Z-transistor? |
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| AMT-freak |
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
The diagram can be found at www.lcaudio.dk/zfdia.pdf and
there is no Z next to the transistor. There is a note, though,
that it is a Zetex device. Maybe you have a different version of
the diagram where Zetex is abbreviated to Z?
|
You refer to the diagram of the "ZAP filter", while I was talking about an improved version, "ZAP filter mk II". You can download a simplified schematic in the URL linked in my first post. You will find the "z" there.
| quote: | Originally posted by Christer
BTW what is a Z-transistor?
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That's what this post was all about. You cannot buy a "Z transistor". It's a term used by LC Audio in their marketing. I was interested in what is behind it. |
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| Christer |
Sorry AMTfreak, I was mixing up the versions of the Zapfilter and
LCclock, so I mistakenly thought the new Zapfilter was Mk III.
So the Z-transistor is just a marketing term from LC then, with
no definition of what they mean? Doesn't quite sound like LC
marketing to use obscure terminology. |
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| LC Audio |
The term Z-transistor was not invented by us, but another well known company in the audio business. (Use a search engine to find out which).
It refers to the special types of transistors with a vertical electron passage rather than the normal horizontal passage, in a silicon crystal.
The vertical topology was invented by Zetex, presumably why the term Z-transistor came up. Some of Zetex' transistors use this technology, others don't. The ones that do have extremely low Cbc and exceptional good hfe linearity. Important parameters for audio applications!
In fact i believe Zetex have some of the best audio transistors around these days, if you look for the important figures in their datasheets. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by LC Audio
The term Z-transistor was not invented by us, but another well known company in the audio business. (Use a search engine to find out which).
|
I've tried both Altavista and Google and the only relevant
docs I find are about your End Millenium amp. I have also
checked Zetex and they seem not to use the term themselves.
| quote: |
It refers to the special types of transistors with a vertical electron passage rather than the normal horizontal passage, in a silicon crystal.
|
I don't understand exactly what you mean, but I suppose you
mean that the planar process is not used for these BJTs. I didn't
know there were any other types of BJTs.
| quote: |
The vertical topology was invented by Zetex, presumably why the term Z-transistor came up. Some of Zetex' transistors use this technology, others don't. The ones that do have extremely low Cbc and exceptional good hfe linearity. Important parameters for audio applications!
In fact i believe Zetex have some of the best audio transistors around these days, if you look for the important figures in their datasheets. |
I didn't find anything at Zetex's site on Z transistors and found
no other term that seemed to refer to it, so I could only randomly
check a handful of devices, none of which turned out to fit
the description. Could you, or someone else, please give the
part number for a Z transistor, so I could check its datasheet?
Thanks in advance. |
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| Christer |
AMTfreak, thanks, but the problem is not to find datasheets,
but to find a Zetex device which is a Z-transistor. All the ones
I found when sampling their catalogue turned out to be planar.
Or, to be more precise, a few were not advertised as planar
and were claimed to use a "matrix structure". However, these
latter ones did not show any better specs either, so I don't
think those are Z-transistors either. |
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| Christer |
Hm, those are also described as planar in the datasheets. Did
I perhaps misunderstand lcaudios explanation. There are no
markings in the datasheets or device listings at Zetex,
unfortunately.
These datasheets were also very brief, and the FMMT42A
datasheet referred to for more details were just as brief, so
except for the Cob figure, there seems not much info to figure
out if they are special in the way described by lcaudio. |
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| LC Audio |
Fred Dieckmann, we never use discussion groups for commercial purposes, we simply replied to some discussions about our products or marketing, where it was obvious that the train was about to run off tracks. Like this one ....
(i.e. You will not find any threads about any of our newly released products on diyaudio.com, which kind of proves my point).
We never claimed that the vertical crystal structure was opposing the planar layout. If you look through the replies above you will see the typical pattern:
1..Someone assumes that the Z transistor is not a planar design.
2..He looks in the datasheets and finds that it is a planar design.
3..A third user assumes that WE claimed it to be a non planar design, and blames US for false marketing.
4..Other users fall over us for using discussion groups as commercial sites, using false marketing tricks, and all sorts of other things, none of which we did.....
It's a feast of conspiracy and mistrust. All unfounded!
I have clearly stated (as you can see above) that the term Z-transistor was NOT invented by Zetex, so you can NOT find informations about the term Z-transistors on Zetex.com.
I have learned about the special Zetex DIE construction on a technical design seminar, but also i have been able to find several references in Zetex databooks, i.e. 'High Performance Surface Mount Devices Book 2' 1996 page 1-7 to 2-5. This material describes the properties of the Zetex devices and compare performance with more conventional types. But sorry... not for audio related performances. This is something you would have to find out the experimental way.
So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... :cool:
Let's talk about Audio Technology instead...... It's more fun.....
Lars Clausen |
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| Christer |
Please, Lars, you are overreacting. There is no conspiracy and
nobody has accused you of any false marketing in this case.
I obviously jumped to the wrong conclusions from what you
wrote earlier, getting the impression that the Z-transistor
was something fundamentally different from an ordinary
planar BJT. It now seems obvious there are only minor differences
since Zetex seem not think it worth commenting on even in the
datasheets. |
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| LC Audio |
OK ;)
But it should be easy to find the theory stuff (that is uisually not included in any datasheets), try using Google, and search for words like topology, Zetex, chip, electron, etc. etc.
Something is bound to come up.
All the best from Denmark |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"Fred Dieckmann, we never use discussion groups for commercial purposes."
I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors. I only wanted to make the point that description of the transistors as Zetex, and showing the marking of the SMT parts will take about 10 minutes to identify them and nullify any attempts to make the use of a "Z" transistor a design secret. I have respect for proprietary designs and don't reverse engineer products and post them on the web. I was interested in what transistor was used after reading your online literature were it was clearly marked so as to make it's identification a simple matter.
I believe that manufactures need to be very careful about even the smallest impression of bending the rules about commercial use of our forum. There are any number of members of audio companies that don't flog us with their commercial products and still participate in sharing ideas and even learning things here without the appearance of trying to sell products to us. Your user name is that of the company and all your post have a link button directly to your commercial website. Do you see the impression that even that alone makes?
A thread like the "Zapfilter DC offset trouble, help needed" is absolutely the type of thing the belongs in a manufacturers forum and is why other audio forums have these. This thread deal with customer issues and presented your company in a bad light over issues that would best be solved by private Email. Several people have expressed problems with commercial issue creeping into the forum and I am not the only one by any means. I think further considerations on your part about the clear separation of business from friendly participation in the forum would be good for not only the forum but for your company as well. Plenty of others do this and the very few that don't stand out like a sore thumb and the members know who they are. |
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| Apogee |
Fred,
This was the first post by Lars:
| quote: | Originally posted by LC Audio
The N2 transistors are FCX491A, chosen for their high linearity, and hfe. The 5 GHz bandwidth, that some users in this discussion room claim we use in our marketing material is NOT for this part, but for the BFR92A used in LClock.
The term Z-Transistor is not even found in connection with any of the products discussed here, we use Z transistors in our The End Millennium Power Amplifier kit.... hmm
How did you mix that one up so much AMT-FREAK :bawling:
:) |
I have to disagree with your attack. I feel Lar's reply was on topic and he was not "selling" his product. He was simply answering questions brought up on forum and I feel it was you who was once again attempting to steer the thread off course with your title and post:
Free advertising for comercial websites AGAIN? Post #27
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/do...um_cookbook.pdf
I find it fortunate that varous experts are willing to share information about their products and admire the fact that they even take the time to monitor and answer this forum.
I have no problem with Lar's using his business name as his handle. He should be very proud of what he/his company produces and should be able to choose whichever moniker he feels like just as you have.
I don't view the link to his website any differently than a link to a personal website from anyone else whether done for hobby's sake or commercial purposes... You have the option of deciding whether to explore it or not; nobody is forcing it down your throat... Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story...
I think it's great that he's willing to participate and share information! Thanks Lars!
Lastly, let's not handle foreign policy in a manner similar to the boneheads in Washington DC ok? My other half is native German and has only been here 3 years. She translates every word into English one at a time and I've found the literal translation often offends even though it was never intended to... Please keep in mind that you are expressing your opinion and only your opinion and the tone/meaning may be offensive when translated.
Just food for thought... |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
Am I the only one who actually reads post closely?
Lets see......... in his first post he manages to mention two other products from his company
Let's see... I start off an attack with an apology? I don't think so. what I actually said was "I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors."
"Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story..."
I posted brochures from a previous company about products no longer available in answer to questions about what high end design I did. I have never sold anything on this forum and take issue with your deliberate distortion of the facts. I have given enough free design advice on the forum and behind the scenes to be several thousand bucks worth of consulting if I were charging for it. Figure fifty dollars an hour and go do the math........
I found Lars quote:
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
This is a very interesting quote from a known audio manufacture reading the forum and yet another reason for him to keep detailed discussions about things related to his products out of the discussions on the forum. If there is a question or false claim about an issue concerning his product or parts used, answer the question briefly with, its proprietary; no we don't use it; or we use this part, and move on.
This cuts both ways and many might view him as the "audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork," This seems a real possibility considering the amount of pretty detailed advice on the forum. Ideas are the commerce here. If you have no input to give that is not related ultimately to selling your product, expect little or no response to questions from which answers might be useful to you in designing a commercial product. |
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| Jocko Homo |
I charge $70/hr. I see no reason why I should get a lesser rate than I get digging up broken lawn sprinklers.
Of course, for the true DIYer, I do it pro bono. And I would be able to make my house payment every month for all the free advice I give via private e-mail. Which is where a lot of us feel Signore El-See should take his affairs.
Unless we start a manufacturers forum here. In which case, I might start charging. I'll send Apogee my first bill, just for the heck of it. [joke]
Jocko |
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| LC Audio |
As a newbie to discussion forums i thought it was about discussing audio technique, ideas, components etc. It turns out to be a whole other ballgame.
It seems some people use diyaudio.com as some kind of anger outlet. And Jocko also impossible to have a normal conversation with.
Is it really worth spending time here, if you have no need for anger management? Does it bring anything positive to my audio hobby? I think not...
So this is my epilog for diyaudio.com.
To all you real audio dyi'ers out there: good luck and have fun with your hobby!
Lars Clausen |
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| Jocko Homo |
I dare anyone, especially people who disagree with me to say that I have never been able to have a decent conversation with. People who say that they hate me, write to me, asking for advice, which I freely give. They then thank me for my time, and express being surprised that I am so accommodating.
Funny, a guy who hasn't addressed me dircetly would make that claim. He could have tried to find out otherwise, but he seems to chose not to.
His loss, not mine.
Jocko, prototype angry white male from the South. |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
Makes a much better epipilog. Peranders will still be glad to help via Email I'm sure.
We L miss you. C you around. |
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| peranders |
| Jocko + Lars = :hot: :redhot: :censored: :fight: :flame: :headbash: :fight: :firefite: :hug: |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
How did I escape without being implicated in this terrible scandal and great loss to the forum?
One should always play fairly when one has the winning cards. Oscar Wilde |
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| Cobra2 |
But you need to grow a thick skin...
BTW...you, asking for a preamp, seems a bit like a slaugther buying a beef in another shop....
Arne K |
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| Apogee |
Fred,
I keep trying to understand what your true purpose really is.
Someone came to the forum and was willing to share information (including schematics) about their commercial products and you with your BS games have run them off. What is the point?
Clearly, you are very bright. Unfortunately for you, you certainly don't know everything. Why is it impossible for you to just contribute to the forum in a constructive manner and not constantly irritate others? Has it ever occurred to you that a truly wise man listens more than he speaks?
You wrote| quote: | | Another unbiased post from the vice president of my fan club.... |
Actually, I am a fan of yours to a certain point. WHEN you're on topic and actually contributing substance other than noise, your posts are outstanding and often add a humorous touch. I have no doubt that you know volumes more than I and that I could learn a lot from you. Unfortunately, the WHEN on topic has to be applied much too often...
My frustration lies in exactly what has just transpired here. Once again someone who came here for fun (just as both you and I have) has been driven away. WE HAVE BOTH LOST HERE AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE! Don't you get that?
| quote: | "Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story..."
I posted brochures from a previous company about products no longer available in answer to questions about what high end design I did. I have never sold anything on this forum and take issue with your deliberate distortion of the facts. I have given enough free design advice on the forum and behind the scenes to be several thousand bucks worth of consulting if I were charging for it. Figure fifty dollars an hour and go do the math........ |
This made me smile because of your misinterpretation. I was referring to the post you made regarding Lars in which you included a link to his website... You on the other hand were referring to your own linking of commercial products you were involved with... Why is it ok for you to link to commercial products, whether or not current, but not ok for others to do so? Don't you think you were still advertising for the company, it's designers, etc? Please explain my distortion of the facts...
| quote: | " So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
This is a very interesting quote from a known audio manufacture reading the forum and yet another reason for him to keep detailed discussions about things related to his products out of the discussions on the forum. If there is a question or false claim about an issue concerning his product or parts used, answer the question briefly with, its proprietary; no we don't use it; or we use this part, and move on. |
What do you think he did in his first post? Did you actually take the time to read it? You have taken this out of context and jumped to the end of the thread. He never stated that he had any problem with us looking at his clock design. Further, he actually helped us by sharing which parts he used...
| quote: | | This cuts both ways and many might view him as the "audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork," This seems a real possibility considering the amount of pretty detailed advice on the forum. Ideas are the commerce here. If you have no input to give that is not related ultimately to selling your product, expect little or no response to questions from which answers might be useful to you in designing a commercial product. |
Like Rod quoted above, I feel that his contributions were great. He was new here and learning about the forum and sharing ideas. Whether you like Lars or the LC Audio products is up to you and I would encourage you to keep your feelings private. What is NOT your right is to speak for me or anyone else here regarding how we feel. If I had been unhappy with anything that he had posted, I'm a big boy and could have commented myself. Further, the lack of any supporting posts backing your point up should speak volumes to you.
Once again, I would encourage you to consider the fact that perhaps your opinions are worded very strongly and upon translation might be offensive. Why not instead welcome everyone here regardless of whether they use their company name or not and just have a good time and learn?
It makes me angry that you have run someone off who perhaps might have been a resource willing to help me with a project. You have no right to do that and that is where you have overstepped your bounds.
Frankly I don't appreciate it. :redhot: |
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| Apogee |
Then to post a smart A** reply such as:
| quote: | That was a close one!
How did I escape without being implicated in this terrible scandal and great loss to the forum? |
Clearly illustrates the point that I was trying to get across to you...
YES, IT IS A GREAT LOSS TO BOTH OF US AND THE FORUM BECAUSE PERHAPS HE KNOWS SOMETHING THAT NEITHER OF US DO!
:headbash: |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
My purpose in this case is to not have someone abuse the forum for commercial purposes. Roddyama has posted links that
I believe he intended to show the overt intention of Mr. Clausen to discuss his products and company. This is an abuse of the good will of members offering free advice, who see others using the forum trying to make a buck. People are going to use advice here for use in commercial products, that's a given. Some of us are being more careful about how much advice we give, when we see increasing numbers of people using the forum to do their R and D. Picking up a tid bit here and there is fine, but people start lengthy threads with very specific questions with the intent of developing products and PCBs (based on the uncredited research of others or even rip offs of commercial designs) to sell using the forum as their marketing tool. There have some blatant abusers of this practice and it is angering some members of the forum who wish to come here as a hobbyist and not to buy and sell. If you have an audio company, people know who you are. There are enough search engine reference and links from this and other sites, that we do not need to be spammed or have people ask questions posing as a hobbyist and then using in commercial products. Maybe some of these fuzzy boundaries between business and pleasure need to be better defined by Jason and the moderators. I am not the only one concerned about this and receive Email from others complaining about the same people I complain about on the forum regarding this matter.
"It makes me angry that you have run someone off who perhaps might have been a resource willing to help me with a project."
I believe his website and Email address are known to you and you can still ask him for his help. Perhaps he is on other forums as well. If he was really here as a hobbyist and not just for the marketing opportunity, I am sure there are avenues where he can talk to other hobbyist in the same manner that almost all of the dialog on the forum occurs. He did not ask him to leave and don't make policy or the rules for DIYaudio. Come back as Lars the hobbyist and not as LC Audio the marketing division, and I will welcome him with open arms. I really would like to know how others feel about commercialism creeping into this forum. I thought it was the Do It Yourself audio forum and not the Dollars In Your pocket forum.
BTW your bias is as high as that of the output stage on one of Grey's amps......... please don't let your temperature follow. |
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| Richard C |
It is a great pity that Lars has been driven away. LC Audio are responsible for some of the most innovative designs of recent years and it is very rare for a manufacturer to be so willing to make available schematics and discuss in detail their current products.
There was no secret regarding which company he represents, nothing underhand so surely we can each make our own judgements about what his motives for contributing were. |
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| Apogee |
| quote: | | My purpose in this case is to not have someone abuse the forum for commercial purposes. |
I don't believe you are a moderator here nor were you appointed the site guardian by the members. You could have emailed your advice to Lars in private if you felt strongly about it.
| quote: | | I believe his website and Email address are known to you and you can still ask him for his help. |
Pretty much defeats the idea of a forum don't you think? What about the next guy who is interested in asking the same question?
| quote: | | If he was really here as a hobbyist and not just for the marketing opportunity, I am sure there are avenues where he can talk to other hobbyist in the same manner that almost all of the dialog on the forum occurs. |
Please explain the difference between Lars linking to a preamp schematic on his site and Nelson mentioning or linking to the Aleph schematics on his site? How about JCarr linking to Lyra? How would you regard the PassDIY site?
Pink has started a "Commercial Postings on diyAudio" thread discussing this topic. Look here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=11124
Personally, I don't want to have to be searching in several places to find information just because someone owns an audio company.
| quote: | | Some of us are being more careful about how much advice we give, when we see increasing numbers of people using the forum to do their R and D. |
This is exactly the reason that I responded in the manner that I did. It is because your signal to noise ratio as of late is about 1 to 99; with 1 being signal and 99 being BS. Combine that fact with driving away new members and it illustrates the problem. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EVERYONE ELSE!
| quote: | | BTW your bias is as high as that of the output stage on one of Grey's amps......... please don't let your temperature follow. |
You might ask yourself exactly why I have a bias and where it came from? Considering that I have never met you and have only interacted with you on this forum, has it ever occurred to you that your own actions have precipitated my bias? I would submit to you your constant badgering and condescending attitute as a starting point for your consideration.
And yes, I know the fact that the high bias AlephX thread has 300,000 views and was started by someone else is something that you just can't stand...
Bottom line - you chose to drive away a new member and that is unacceptable! |
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| Jocko Homo |
Looks like he has thin skin, and turned tail. After only 2 days.
There are forum members who have been routinely berated by some of us.....in public......yet they didn't up and leave. We even exchange polite e-mails in private, while continuing to feud in public.
We can exchange ideas with people that we have disagreements with, and we will continue to do so.....as will they. Even if it seems to get personal, we all still manage to survive.
No, I'm afraid that this individual found the kitchen too warm, and fled. He even went as far as making derogatory remarks about me, which were removed by the moderators, without my knowledge.
Your move........bub.
Jocko |
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| SY |
As the moderator in question, what I removed was not an insult directed at you, but a common, tasteless, and inappropriate joke about your handle. And I was invited to do so by Lars, who in private email, was quite friendly, polite, and accomodating.
Dude, you really ought to think about changing it- Jocko Moe?;) |
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| Jocko Homo |
I think that the real Moe would be offended.
Jocko |
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| roddyama |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jocko Homo
I think that the real Moe would be offended.
Jocko |
You Knuckle-Head:smash: |
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| Jocko Homo |
I just ate.
Jocko |
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