| Rafal |
Hi Folks,
I currently am running a gainclone (based on LM3875 and BrianGT boards) and would like to try building a tube power amp kit. Can you recommend a kit that will give me better results than the gainclone I have? I'm looking for something that would equal a manufactured amp costing about $1500.
This will be used to drive fairly efficient speakers (visaton b200 in OB) and I need this amp to have a very strong bass (since it's a week point of OB).
I've never played with the tubes but a lot of people seem to be really into it, so I thought I'd try it.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Cheers,
Rafal |
|
|
| ErikdeBest |
Hi Rafal
| quote: | | I need this amp to have a very strong bass (since it's a week point of OB). |
In principe this would not have to be a problem: a valve amp can produce bass, and including some tone controls or 'loudness' function on it, it could be even made to produce more bass... but the question is if you really want this. The B200 will never produce strong bass in a open baffle, as it can't move much air with it's 8" surface.
I do own a B200 too, built in OB. For music without bass (choir) I play them fullrange, but when I want some heavier music (as a classic concert) I turn on my dipole subs and a 12dB HP crossover at about 100Hz on the B200. This way I take the stress of bass and long excursions out of the B200, which plays wonderfully the octaves above 100Hz. I feel that without the crossover the B200 loses some qualities in its upper frequencies.
So, maybe a valve amp for the B200, and a dipole sub?
Erik |
|
|
| Rafal |
| That sounds like a good idea. Can you share details about your dipole sub? and the crossover? |
|
|
| ErikdeBest |
Hi Rafal
I started to build this speakers about one year ago when I still had some time, but did not quite finish them, yet. I attach an old picture...
Sub is dipole, a W frame, with 2x 18" inch PA sub which had the right parameters. Filtered on 100Hz, with a 24dB LR crossover, powered by a gainclone....and rattling a bit at (too) high volumes - have to fix that.
For the visaton a PP with EL519, which sounds quite nice. There is a ribbon mounted, but I never had it playing yet.
For further information on dipole subs I would go to the subwoofer forum or visit www.linkwitzlab.com
I hope someone jumps in with info on your request.
Erik |
|
|
| Rafal |
I don't know, maybe $500?
That's about how much I can get the T amp using UCD180 built for (I think I would preffer to try tubes though) |
|
|
| scott_m |
Rafal,
Besides the BrianGT gainclone board you have, I have three other diy-ish amplifiers. These three amps all best the gainclone w/ my visaton b200 speakers. In no particular order:
- DIYParadise Charlize. I know, I know...not a tube amp. Still it's easy, inexpensive and drives the b200s great.
- Bottlehead S.E.X amp. Stock version bests the gainclone, plus works great as a dedicated headphone amplifier. Easy to build for around 350 dollars.
- Eli's 'El Cheapo' PP amplifer can be found here.El Cheapo thread here. I love mine. Jim Mcshane makes a kit of component parts, tubes, sockets, rca jacks, etc... available. You supply the chassis and the iron. For sub 500 dollars you could upgrade the output transformers and have a really fine amplifier. (I built mine w/ dynaclone output transformers and the amp has a very healthy low end...)
Good luck,
Scott. |
|
|
| sorenj07 |
| I can't guarantee it will sound good but I've been working on an amp that should be quite cheap. It uses cheap Russian EL84-type tubes, the 6P14P, and either a 6DJ8 or a 6N23P. Should be easily sub 400 dollars, but it depends on which iron you want (Edcor makes 10W 8K a-a OPT's for 16 a pop, but I'll also be using the Z565) |
|
|
| Rafal |
| quote: | Originally posted by scott_m
Rafal,
Besides the BrianGT gainclone board you have, I have three other diy-ish amplifiers. These three amps all best the gainclone w/ my visaton b200 speakers. In no particular order:
- DIYParadise Charlize. I know, I know...not a tube amp. Still it's easy, inexpensive and drives the b200s great.
- Bottlehead S.E.X amp. Stock version bests the gainclone, plus works great as a dedicated headphone amplifier. Easy to build for around 350 dollars.
- Eli's 'El Cheapo' PP amplifer can be found here.El Cheapo thread here. I love mine. Jim Mcshane makes a kit of component parts, tubes, sockets, rca jacks, etc... available. You supply the chassis and the iron. For sub 500 dollars you could upgrade the output transformers and have a really fine amplifier. (I built mine w/ dynaclone output transformers and the amp has a very healthy low end...)
Good luck,
Scott. |
Scott, thanks for your suggestions. I was actually thinking of Charlize and I was wondering how it compared to my gainclone. It is dead easy to build and not too pricey. I also considered 41Hz AMP6 which is based on the same chip but requires more assembly ( a lot cheaper though). Which of these amps, would you say is the best mach for B200? Also if you were to rate them, which would be your 1st, 3nd and 3rd pick?
I will surely look into the tube amps but if the performance of Charlize iz simillar to the tube amps, maybe i should just give Charlize a go? |
|
|
| scott_m |
Rafal,
The Charlize is a step behind the S.E.X. amp. and the PP Dyanclone z565 'el cheapo' - however it is a step above the chip amp, and affordable, and easy to put together. The PP 'el cheapo' would give you more options for speakers down the road. The S.E.X. amp is a complete kit, easy to assemble, and WILL work when you're all done. (so will the 'el cheapo', but you'll have to figure out a few more steps on your own).
Scott. |
|
|
| Rafal |
Do you guys have any other ideas if I stretch my budget to about $1000US? What level of a production amp would a $1000 kit equal to (price wise)?
I would like to, ideally get the whole kit with good instructions and I'd like to end up with about 35 to 50w/ch.
It would also be cool if I could tweak it down the road to furhter improve the performance.
Since I have asked this question originally, I have tried the Charlize amp, and it does sound very nice but I want more power (I am using a filter with my Visation B200 which lowers their sensitivity). |
|
|
| dmason |
Tube kit, $1000? I would buy Jim's El Cheapo pak, good transformers maybe James, www.euphoniaaudio.com a nice hardwood chassis ready to go from www.welbornelabs.com
. Push Pull 6aq5 would be fantastic, with great bass, and as someone said, provide more speaker opportunities. I find the 6aq5 to have a somewhat "tighter" sound than 6V6. In fact, I intend to build the el Cheapo this year exactly this way.
You would have several hundred left over. Active digital EQ alternatives Rafal: www.alesis.com have a couple interesting additions. Many are put off by the Behringer's relative complexity. So easy, even a...:clown: |
|
|
| Rafal |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
Tube kit, $1000? I would buy Jim's El Cheapo pak, good transformers maybe James, www.euphoniaaudio.com a nice hardwood chassis ready to go from www.welbornelabs.com
. Push Pull 6aq5 would be fantastic, with great bass, and as someone said, provide more speaker opportunities. I find the 6aq5 to have a somewhat "tighter" sound than 6V6. In fact, I intend to build the el Cheapo this year exactly this way.
You would have several hundred left over. Active digital EQ alternatives Rafal: www.alesis.com have a couple interesting additions. Many are put off by the Behringer's relative complexity. So easy, even a...:clown: |
How would Alesis compare sound wise to Behringer?
I would like something that is the least intrusive on the signal.
Thanks in advance |
|
|
| dmason |
I have no idea whether it is "better," its design is newer, Alesis is a step or two up the ladder from Behringer, it has less bells and whistles, and if you kept the signal digital, ie use SPDIF and a DAC, it shouldnt do anything at all, to the signal. They shouldnt sound like anything at all.
Alesis has been around a loooooong time, and always puts out a product that is worthwhile, and represents value. If I didn't have a Rane RPM, I would choose the Alesis for simple room correction and bass lift, for OB. It is a digital graphic EQ, with memory. I like that. |
|
|
| dsavitsk |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
and if you kept the signal digital, ie use SPDIF and a DAC, it shouldnt do anything at all, to the signal. They shouldnt sound like anything at all. |
You don't actually believe that, do you? |
|
|
| dmason |
I thought I qualified my remarks, somewhat, with use of the word,
"shouldn't."
My prior comment, "I haven't heard it," also dis-qualifies, my ability to weigh in with any kind of opinion, other than on the face of it, it looks as though it is worth investigating. I have owned Alesis synthesizers, and their product and support are outstanding.
In my own opinion, EVERYTHING changes the sound, always. Even the premium-priced Rane RPM, whose designers have gone to pains to ameliorate that; and argue that well implemented digital circuitry --shouldn't-- .... |
|
|
| Rafal |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
I thought I qualified my remarks, somewhat, with use of the word,
"shouldn't."
My prior comment, "I haven't heard it," also dis-qualifies, my ability to weigh in with any kind of opinion, other than on the face of it, it looks as though it is worth investigating. I have owned Alesis synthesizers, and their product and support are outstanding.
In my own opinion, EVERYTHING changes the sound, always. Even the premium-priced Rane RPM, whose designers have gone to pains to ameliorate that; and argue that well implemented digital circuitry --shouldn't-- .... |
I know this is getting a bit off topic, but are there things I should be aware of if I'm truing to equilize my Visation B200 and an active sub? Ideally I'd like to put in a high pass filter to limit the LF extension of the full range drivers, but thet would require either a passive network or an axtive crossover. I wish there was a device (around $399US) that combined a digital equilizer and an activer crossover (even a simple one)or a high pass filter and sub out).
Now, back on topic...
Have you guys tried / heard Dynaco kits (like ST70 or Mark III)? Would that be a vaiable option? A friend of mine is very excited about building the Mark III |
|
|
| 2wo |
After reading your post and having heard the b200. I could not recommend the dynacos It will just not deliver to the level that I think you are looking for. I have an ST70. If lower power will do the Bottlehead or the Welborne are both excellent. I have a Welborne myself and get to listen to the Bottlehead amp on a regular basis.
If you are looking for more power . I highly recommend you take a long look at the Elle from DIY hifi supply, (a fellow Canadian).
http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_ella.htm
It is a hell of a lot of amp for the money You even get a remote ;)
I have no connection, yada, yada, just like to put in a word for the good guys…John |
|
|
| lousymusician |
| There are more affordable kits and built amps to check out at Gabe's Amps 'n' Stuff. I've neither heard nor seen his stuff, but he has several amps at very attractive prices that ought to work well with a B200. Gabe posts here occasionally, maybe he'll chime in. |
|
|
| Rafal |
| quote: | Originally posted by 2wo
After reading your post and having heard the b200. I could not recommend the dynacos It will just not deliver to the level that I think you are looking for. I have an ST70. If lower power will do the Bottlehead or the Welborne are both excellent. I have a Welborne myself and get to listen to the Bottlehead amp on a regular basis.
If you are looking for more power . I highly recommend you take a long look at the Elle from DIY hifi supply, (a fellow Canadian).
http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_ella.htm
It is a hell of a lot of amp for the money You even get a remote ;)
I have no connection, yada, yada, just like to put in a word for the good guys…John |
Please excuse my ignorance, but why would dynaco not be recommended? Are the other amps in a much higher class? |
|
|
| Andrewbee |
alternatively you could try Charlize's bigger cousin, the AMP5 from 41hz.com.
You could buy two kits and parallel them for more grins.41HZ |
|
|
| dmason |
Having heard all manner of amps with the B200 alone, and with the DarkStar, to me, the best sound by far is with the driver high passed at least @100Hz, using single ended triode, no feedback.
The driver has a fairly benign Z, and with both driver and SET amp relieved of bass duty, the rewards are rich indeed. I have heard it with SEX amp, Korneff 45SE, Music Reference 13EM7, several T amps, Hafler, PP 6V6, and the triodes are where it's at, no surprise. The Music Reference 13EM7 is outstanding, comes purpose-built for wideband drivers, with a 100Hz high passed shunt cap input, is a jewel-piece, and sells for under a grand. With it you get Roger Modjeski's support. 3 watts about as good as it gets. www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/6EM7-13EM7.html
If you are looking to get started with a tube kit, my vote goes with the Bottlehead SEX amp. It is a very well evolved circuit, and you get the entire Bottlehead community to answer your questions, and applaud you when she starts singing in your livingroom. |
|
|
| Rafal |
| quote: | Originally posted by dmason
Having heard all manner of amps with the B200 alone, and with the DarkStar, to me, the best sound by far is with the driver high passed at least @100Hz, using single ended triode, no feedback.
The driver has a fairly benign Z, and with both driver and SET amp relieved of bass duty, the rewards are rich indeed. I have heard it with SEX amp, Korneff 45SE, Music Reference 13EM7, several T amps, Hafler, PP 6V6, and the triodes are where it's at, no surprise. The Music Reference 13EM7 is outstanding, comes purpose-built for wideband drivers, with a 100Hz high passed shunt cap input, is a jewel-piece, and sells for under a grand. With it you get Roger Modjeski's support. 3 watts about as good as it gets. www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/6EM7-13EM7.html
If you are looking to get started with a tube kit, my vote goes with the Bottlehead SEX amp. It is a very well evolved circuit, and you get the entire Bottlehead community to answer your questions, and applaud you when she starts singing in your livingroom. |
The bottlehead Sex amp looks like a nice kit, but if Iuse a high pass filter, even a first order (a single capacitor) won't my efficiency go down to the point that the Bottlehead SEX will not have enough power? It only has 2 w/ch. |
|
|
| dmason |
The SEX amp's available output is pretty juicy. Many, many owners have commented on their surprise as to the gutsy little parafeed 6DN7. When you relieve the output transformers of bass duty, ~<100Hz, it frees up about 40% more power for the higher frequencies. 2 watts >100Hz into the B200's would surprise you, methinks. Been there, done it.
I added Mundorf capacitors and a DACT volume attenuator to mine, and the improvement was enormous. Far greater than the Magnequest upgrade Tx, in my opinion. Both Blumenco, and I removed the upgrade transformers, and found that with good coupling capacitors, we both preferred the sound with the stock Speco autoformers. ...I wish I had a digicam, my SEX amp was a gift from the late Terry Cain, a little Maple number, with brass feet, which I shall treasure always. I use it as a headamp sometimes, where it also shines. |
|
|
| scott_m |
Regarding el-cheapo - I just swapped out the simple volume pot that comes in jim's kit of parts for a PEC carbon pot I ordered from Digikey. The 30 dollar PEC pot doesn't qualify as 'cheap' exactly - however it's cheaper and smaller than a stepped attenuator and it sounds fantastic.
Scott. |
|
|
| jduffy |
I can vouch for the SEX amp. It has excellent sound that trumps my gainclone easily.
What you get for the money is pretty astounding if you ask me. If an individual were to try and chase down all those parts it would take quite a while. I know as I've chased down parts to build my gainclone and it sent me all over Los Angeles and the internet to get what I needed.
Also the SEX amp build instructions are impeccable. I had no doubts about what I was doing during any step of the build process.
One drawback in ordering the SEX amp is that you have to wait for Bottlehead to acquire all the pieces before they send it to you. I was lucky enough that I got in on the tail-end of the orders so I only waited about a week and a half. Some have waited much, much longer.
That being said, the SEX amp is the best piece of audio kit that I've ever purchased. I listen to it everyday. |
|
|
| tinitus |
| and only available in 120V :cannotbe: well a new trafo wont cost that much ... but taxes, custom ... pitty |
|
|
| 2wo |
Don’t get me wrong. The Dynaco’s are true classics The originals had very good output transformers. There input/spliter stage left a bit to be desired Just look the sheer number of replacement driver boards that are available for it and the power supply was just adequate at best. If you already had one it might be worth the mods and upgrading
It has been a while since I looked at the latest offerings If you post a link I will look again. But my take they are for those who have decided that they already want a Dynaco.
I recommended the Ella because I have heard one and it sounds better than a stock Dynaco, all of the amps I have seen listed on this thread will sound better. I have not heard Gabe’s though…John |
|
|
| 2wo |
| quote: | | The bottlehead Sex amp looks like a nice kit, but if Iuse a high pass filter, even a first order (a single capacitor) won't my efficiency go down to the point that the Bottlehead SEX will not have enough power? It only has 2 w/ch. |
No, put the filter at the input. You don't eat power till you make it. Grab a handful of small caps, say start with a .1uf Just tack in inline with your input.
I personally think you will get good results just letting the b200 roll off on its own and find a matching Sub. I bet posting "what sub with my b200’s " will do it or have a look at some of the OB forums ...John |
|
|
| tinitus |
What about the integrated PP Joplin DHT 2A3/45 from DIY HifiSupply - cost in standard is 600USD and complete set of tubes an exstra 100
It looks very strong to me, with attractive upgrade options |
|
|
| tinitus |
Sorry for double reply
ZEUS is not a tubeamp but supposed to work like one and might work fantastic with a tubepre - anyhow this rare lady deserves some attention
http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/ |
|
|
| Jeff Yourison |
Steve got new software for the Decware forums. Scott M. had earlier posted a link to the El Cheapo thread there. This is the new link:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb...?num=1126228937
I have built this amp and like it a lot, even though it's still in breadboard form. Can't wait for warmer weather so I can case it up!
--Jeff |
|
|
| tinitus |
Thanks very much...I have been looking with no luck
Does anything exist on a homesite elsewhere.... but I guess its kind of a joint venture, and that there is no one in particular responsible ? .... so its important to read tread carefully to get it absolutely right
Might this be my first :) |
|
|
| Jeff Yourison |
Yes, the El Cheapo was a group effort, initiated by Eli Duttman, Dave from Planet10 and Jim McShane. There is no set homepage for the El Cheapo, just the thread, but a couple of people plan to journal their building experiences and post them. You just need to read through the first half of the thread to get what's going on. No major changes have happened since the middle -- the schematics on page 18 of the thread are up to date.
It helps to press the "print" button at the top of the thread page to get the whole thread in one chunk to print or to save as html for later browsing. I've learned a ton doing the reading. Here's a quick link for that:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb...;num=1126228937
You can get parts (except transformers) from Jim McShane here:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/elcheapo.htm
Eli set up an email account for questions specific to the project: elcheapodiy ( at ) gmail ( dot ) com
I upgraded to the DynaClone output transformers from Triode Electronics and they sound good. Any P-P transformers available where you live that are the right primary impedance and rated for 15 - 20 Watts or so would work fine, too.
--Jeff |
|
|
| Eli Duttman |
| quote: | Originally posted by scott_m
Regarding el-cheapo - I just swapped out the simple volume pot that comes in jim's kit of parts for a PEC carbon pot I ordered from Digikey. The 30 dollar PEC pot doesn't qualify as 'cheap' exactly - however it's cheaper and smaller than a stepped attenuator and it sounds fantastic.
Scott. |
From the beginning, "El Cheapo" was intended to be extensible. The design responds well to better parts.
Scott has "goosed" performance by using good O/P "iron", a B+ booster trafo, and a NICE volume control |
|
|
|
