| peranders |
halojoy commented (somewhere, can't find it) that Fred, Peter etc. can achieve higher quality than Pass Labs. I don't think so ....in the long run.
Our experience is that hand made product gets the worse quality... in the long run.
At first we started with hand placed parts and hand soldered. Then we bought a soldering machine. The quality of solder joints became better but still it happened that parts were placed in the wrong positions (human factor).
Now we use a pick-and-place machine and owen. Our quality now in functioning units is at the top, never been better, but it can get even better. We don't have 100% yield yet but we are getting nearer that goal.
A trimmed production line is far, far better than hand made! It's a misinterpretation that hand made is better by nature. Whitout knowing I am convinced that 100 amps from Pass Labs are better than 100 amps from a single DIY person. Note I have only talked about functioning qaulity and looks.
Nelson, I believe in you :up: |
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| phase_accurate |
IMHO it is also necessary to have a minimum number of items manufactured, in order to apply quality assurance methods (i.e. feedback from service dept to manufacturing).
OTOH you know the equipment you built by yourself usually very well so you are able to service and improve it by yourself as well.
Regards
Charles |
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| peranders |
| I admit though that "quality" is a wide concept. If a single person build one single unit I think it's rather great possibility to achieve a very well functioning unit but if we involve statistics, it's a different situation. |
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| Circlotron |
| Some companies boast that they have ISO 9001 quality contol procedures therefore their stuff *must* be better. All it realy means is that their stuff is consistently good, bad or ugly. Always. :) |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
Some companies boast that they have ISO 9001 quality contol procedures therefore their stuff *must* be better. All it realy means is that their stuff is consistently good, bad or ugly. Always. :) |
You know ISO9000 can be a good thing but it means nothing really, only more paper work and invoices from De Norske Veritas (makes lot's of money in approving companies). The reality makes judgement if you know what I mean?
ISO9000 means that you have control over what you are doing but it says nothing how good you are doing....yoo can even sin when nobody sees you. |
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| phase_accurate |
I fully agree with you on the ISO stuff. I sometimes think that this has been invented for two reasons:
1.) to generate an opportunity for external consultants to earn (I don't know if this i the correct word ;) ) a lot of money.
2.) to kick small but fine companies out of business.
I nevertheless belive that a serious quality system is a good thing if it is implemented by real professionals and not by a comitee.
Regards
Charles |
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| MikeW |
| Porshe builds AMG motors buy hand. It's about pride and ownership. I wouldn't mind having one. |
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| joensd |
I agree as well with peranders.
Especially when it comes to doing PCBīs.
Unless you have a professional setup you canīt beat pro-PCBīs.
Thickness of the copper material and the sort are just as important as the different wire gauges you use.
With the design being more complex the layout itself becomes very important as well.
On the other side you can make a simple amplifier like the Zen with properly done point to point wiring and expect great results I believe.
Jens |
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| wuffwaff |
Per,
before someone says that handbuild items canīt have such a high quality as those rolling from a production line, the first question should be wich quality is ment.
When you talk about mistakes per 100 items or mean time between failures you could be right but normally you only build one (or maybe 2) items.
When one talks about sound quality I donīt think you are right cause a a single person building his own amp can spend as much time and money as he likes cause he doesnīt have to make a living with it.
Most products are the result of a long series of cost cutting to arrive at an optimum cost/perceived value ratio. This doesnīt mean that they sound / drive / look as good as they could.
william |
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| tiroth |
wuffwaff, you stole my thunder, but I'll still post anyway:
It's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Certainly hand-made components, even assembled by experts, will not reach the precision of an automated process. However, the desired yield, in most cases, is one. A DIYer can in many cases afford to build the whole thing twice or thrice if that is what is necessary to do a good job. The DIYer is a one-person assembler and QA team-they can continue to reject the product until the quality is acceptable.
Build quality is determined by the builder. It is more expensive to DIY 2oz. copper plate, or teflon PCB, but it is possible, and people do it. Hand-assembly also offers flexibility not available to pick-and place setups. This is true even of PCB-based circuits. |
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| jh6you |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
... De Norske Veritas (makes lot's of money in approving companies)... |
Det Norske Veritas. Makes lot of money? Not really...
Remember that there is no money for nothing as Nelson Pass knows...
JH |
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| Peter Daniel |
That is one reason I stoped using PCBs for my hi end projects. I would never be able to make a board like the one from production line, so I want to emphasize the difference that it's hand made even more bu doing everything p2p. When you use silver wire, best soldering alloys, connect everything in 3-dimentional space with much shorter then normally connctions, I don't thing that mass production PCB comes even close. You could expect much better sound as well, especially if you use some exotic parts. I have my hand made audio done 20 years ago, being left in an outside shed in winter, and it doesn't even thin about giving me a trouble.;)
One production example that truly inspired me as to assembly method and overall quality is Connoisseur Preamp from Jonathan Carr, who also visists our forum.
http://www.connoisseurdefinitions.com/model_3.htm |
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| jh6you |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
... p2p... |
I like p2p. Among others, the p2p provides me with more flexibility in construction and maintenance. PCB is mainly for robot and automation for commercial products. The PCB might be required also by diyers for the complicated circuits, tho.
JH |
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| Mark A. Gulbrandsen |
Actually I thought all of Pass Labs stuff was hand assembled in their plant.......don't know about the PCB's though.......
I am getting to like the turrett terminals alot for PTP wiring.....makes it all VERY sturdy too. Any other projects I build will be done PTP with them. Might eventually re-do the pcb's PTP in the 2's I am constructing now.
Mark |
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| Philo |
| I believe a lot of additional manhours go into designing protection and stabilization circuitry durable enough for the average consumer that lives up to PassLab's quality. Many of the members of this forum can build amps near the quality Nelson produces but won't put the time in a circuit or amp that can cover every possible requirement the average consumer may put on it. How many of us build an amp that can switch from electrostatics to horns so easily? |
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| Mark A. Gulbrandsen |
Philo said "How many of us build an amp that can switch from electrostatics to horns so easily?
Thats easy! I'm building amps that can do that.....Aleph 2!
Mark |
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| Philo |
Interesting!
I haven't had any experience with that particular amp. The Aleph X is my first experince with this class of amp. I have built a couple of Borberly designs and a set of tube monoblocks prior to this. I will search back and read up on the threads to get a better idea of what the amp can do... preferably before I shoot my mouth off again :shutup: |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mark A. Gulbrandsen
Philo said "How many of us build an amp that can switch from electrostatics to horns so easily?
Thats easy! I'm building amps that can do that.....Aleph 2!
Mark |
But seriously, how many well-designed amps can NOT handle horns, electrostatic speakers, TL's etc? |
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| Philo |
| The Aleph series is a Nelson Pass design he allows us to play with but, as I understand it, not to much different than his Xseries amps. The acorn just didn't fall to far from the tree. |
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| Mark A. Gulbrandsen |
Philo,
The X series is ALOT more to build, thats for sure. Each monoblock is like building two Alephs in one. The X series has far lower distortion, and noise levels than the Aleph series does, if thats important. Don't know if I would attempt building it or not yet.....I'll probalby just watch and see what happens for a while with them. A number of members here have been working on theirs now for along time.
I have about 100 hours just in my first complete Aleph 2. The first one always takes longer I realize...the second one is more than half way finished now. The brunt of the work is in machining a nice chassis for them, the rest is in assembling, wiring, and testing. After both are done I still have to take it all to the anodizer, but I will probably wait till late spring to do that as I'd rather listen to them and the heat takes the load off my
furnace.
Lucliky my boss lets me use the machine shop at work after hours and on weekends. There I have access to a verticle mill, lathe, much bench space, all the conveniences of a nice shop, etc. Without that access the project would have cost alot more than it has so far.
Mark |
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| Neutron Bob |
Philip,
That spinning caffeine molecule is reminding me it's coffee time!!
A solid, good diy board requires a good cup of coffee, some Vivaldi in the background, and perhaps a contemplative moment with a freshly packed meerschaum while inspecting the work.
Bob :D |
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| Philo |
| While I don't smoke a pipe I do enjoy an occassional cigar and drink about 4-6 cups of coffee a day. I spent today listening to Mozart in my garage dividing my time between projects and the computer. I am putting together some misc power supplies. One for Aleph X amp testing and and one for mosfet matching. I am really getting stoked about the X V.1 boards. I have been going back through the threads and keep running into pictures of Peter's projects. :bigeyes: Those are enough to motivate anyone even remotely interested in building an amp. |
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| Philo |
| Mark, I wish I could have access to that kind of machinery. I have a pretty complete woodworking shop but I am a little limited in metalworking equipment. Unfortunately, the Navy frowns on using their equipment for personal projects. You are in a lucky situation. I have been thinking about buying a 3in1 Smithy and a combo 30" sliproll/brake/bender but some thing big would have to go. My wife would love me to sell my Harley to make room for more equipment. I'd stay home more and wouldn't make so much noise at 5:15 in the morning when I rode it in to work. :redhot: |
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| SvErD |
| quote: | Originally posted by Philo
My wife would love me to sell my Harley to make room for more equipment. I'd stay home more and wouldn't make so much noise at 5:15 in the morning when I rode it in to work. :redhot: |
Oh no, you can't do that, better get rid of the wife. I did;) |
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| Philo |
| It might be in the works soon, she isn't much into audio either! She likes music but doesn't really care if its from a giveaway radio or our nice system. Go figure... :xeye: |
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| vpharris |
So, while you guys are having a general chat, I'll poke my nose in here and ask: Phil, I guess you put your idea of DIY heatsinks on the back burner for now?
You know, I once heard it said that "If you didn't make it with your own two hands, its not really yours.":D |
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| haldor |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
One production example that truly inspired me as to assembly method and overall quality is Connoisseur Preamp from Jonatthan Carr, who also visists our forum.
http://www.connoisseurdefinitions.com/model_3.htm |
Looking at Carr's designs it's easy to see who impresses you in construction practices Peter. Machining the frame out of a 5" thick billet of aluminum. That's really going the extra mile. Bet you wouldn't need to spend much time on vibration isolation with that preamp.
Phil |
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| Philo |
Not at all. I did check into what it would cost to buy all the aluminum out right and once I did the math the total seemed a little high. Unfortunately, I would have to buy the tubing in 10' or 20' lengths which would give me a lot of left over if the sinks weren't efficient enough. I have been hitting all the local metal supply shops and buying their short pieces at $1 to $1.50/lb. Once I get a couple more sizes I might only have to invest in 1 size at full length. Probably 2.5" because it is an unpopular size. A 10' length of that costs about $32. When I went to the first place I picked up some other pieces to finish another project so I have been involved in that. Plus there is that holiday thing that my wife thinks I should come out of the garage for an hour or so... ;)
My goal is to come up with a few designs the average DIY'er can do, yours truely included. I have been checking into home anodizing for which I would have to build a heavy duty 35-50 amp DC supply. I might just bite the bullet and buy a used manual truck battery charger, though. |
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| JoeBob |
| On the side note of DIY heatsinks, that's what I use for my Class-A amps. I'll start a thread describing them and with pictures (my dad got a brand new digital camera to play with for christmas) if anyone's interested. It's a very simple design that should be relatively cheap (I got the metal for free). |
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| PedroPO |
| quote: | Originally posted by jh6you
I like p2p. Among others, the p2p provides me with more flexibility in construction and maintenance. PCB is mainly for robot and automation for commercial products. The PCB might be required also by diyers for the complicated circuits, tho.
JH |
I agree.
I have two p2p amps from AudioNote (kits) and they are P2P.
The only reason that people use PCB's is to make possible a more complex circuit.
I saw 15 days ago a 50(?) years old valve amp that worked fine with a layer of dust(and bugs too!!:D) of 3cm!!.
I don't think a pcb design could withstand such treatment.
PCB's components solder crack very often too, so I really don't think that a proffesional product is better. no way!
I think also that a self made amp is better, at least to the creator, like a child. And that's what matters.
In my amps (good or bad they may be) I used stuff like heatsinks, caps, trafos, wire, chassis that are inimaginable in any amp with less then 10x the cost.
DIYers don't think in comercial budjets. Nor timmings.
WE just think in OUR pleasure, in building and listening.
Merry Xmas to you all! :santa2: |
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| PedroPO |
| here is an example of a P2P "PCB". |
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| PedroPO |
| you can have the confort of pcb and the thick wires of P2P. Don't even need insulation!!! |
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| Philo |
JoeBob,
I am interested in seeing your heatsinks. I wont be able to get my sinks together for a couple of weeks because of holiday plans but will post some pics of them on your thread then. I made some drawings up and put them on the Aleph X heatsink thread. Those will give you an idea of what I am doing. |
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| Mark A. Gulbrandsen |
I completely agree Pedro!! A DIY'er can build anything as good as he or she wants it to be. Many DIY'er Alephs will probably sound a tad different than the run of the mill(you know what I mean Nelson) production Aleph. Some may sound better, and some worse. Some are using a power transformer that is much larger than is called for and some barely squeek by.
In my amp for instance I had the option to use 16ga solid silver wire but instead opted for 16ga stranded ofc silver plated teflon. Which sounds better? Who knows......The teflon insulated stuff will NEVER dry out in the heat of these amplifiers though. I started with 54000 mfd per rail but ended up going to 112000 because there was a tad too much residual noise in the first finished amp. Going to 112000 at least has made it inaudible for the most part....even with your ears right up to the drivers in my speakers. Anyway, there are many routes to go building your own gear, and thats the reason we enjoy doing it ourselves.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!!!!!
Mark |
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| jcarr |
Per Anders:
I use both machine (pick&place, wave solder etc.) and hand assembly techniques. Both are good at different things. The machine is fast and consistent. But it is neither versatile nor flexible, and places severe limitations on how you can design the physical construction of your circuits.
Hand work is slower, and sometimes the wrong part may be installed, or with reversed polarity. With good solder, good soldering equipment and a skilled assembler, the quality of solder joints is not an issue. The major advantage of hand work, however, is that you can do things that a machine simply can't.
For surface mount, I use pick&place and cream solder in an infrared oven. For simple, regular stuff, I use wave soldering. But for all difficult work (custom footprints, special lead bending patterns, point-to-point assembly, layering components on top of each other...), I use hand work. These are all things that I would have to give up in my products if I were to limit myself to machine assembly.
For example, here is an amplifier module from one of my 4.0 preamps. This is the product that Michael Fremer reviewed in Stereophile, and Roy Gregory reviewed in HiFi+. (I won't post any photos of the 3.0 because you can see it on our website). The top board holds the amplifier circuits and the bottom board houses the voltage regulators.
The two boards were designed as a single set and plug into each other. The "pins" are the component leads on both boards, and in some cases the components themselves (vertically oriented resistors, diodes, etc). The requisite leads are kept long and uncut during component installation and soldering, and are plugged into matching receiver pads on the opposing board during assembly.
You cannot do this with machine assembly techniques. |
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| jcarr |
Peter Daniel:
I like your amplifier - both the casing and the way that you have built the circuit. Congratulations on a design that looks nice and undoubtedly sounds super!
Regarding p2p, as with many other things, it is good for some things, and not so good for others. If you want to do impedance control, it is much better to go with a multilayer pcb and ground planes. P2p is best done with leaded components rather than surface-mount, but unfortunately, many high-performance components are available only as SMD, so you may have to choose between p2p or SMD. And given the limited ability of the human being to maintain full alertness and concentration for long periods of time, p2p places a realistic upper limit on the complexity of the circuits that can be built with this technique. Simple circuits are no problem, but when you are building complex circuits with lots of components and connections, having a ready-laid-out pcb to make sure that you don't forget any components or don't wire up the wrong connections is very reassuring.
But p2p also has significant performance advantages. Many circuits need high-impedance nodes for gain, and the same node will be much higher in impedance as an air-dielectric p2p node than it will be on an FR4 pcb dielectric. Stray parasitic capacitances are also much lower with p2p. In my experience, the greatest advantages of p2p arise when it is used not by itself but in combination with a multilayer pcb with full ground-planing. The nodes that need to be low-impedance can be placed on the pcb, while the high-impedance or low-capacitance nodes can be p2p.
As much as possible, additional wiring should be avoided/minimized in p2p construction, because increasing the number of solder joints and the length of various paths are both sonically disadvantageous. I prefer to clamp parts together, bond them into solid blocks, then bend the leads onto each other and solder them at the parts. The solidity of the blocks and the firm mounting of the pcb also helps when you want to layer components, and layering can really help to cut down path lengths in a hurry. Making the circuit structure as compact/dense as possible is highly advantageous for both measured performance and sound, IME. Circuits built per above will often require less compensation for stability, and can be more resistant to RF interference than they otherwise would.
regards, jonathan carr |
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| Nelson Pass |
Jonathan makes a good point, but the argument has two
edges. On the one hand, the X amp doesn't have any
exotic requirements about impedances and capacitance, and
on the other, it is simple enough to enable p2p.
It's interesting, after some experimenting we were able to
eliminate the compensation capacitances normally expected
of such a circuit through layout considerations. You would not
get this as a reproduceable thing in production from p2p.
Ah well, what's a few pf among friends?
;) |
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