| fezz |
hi, i am considering attacking my CD player with a soldering iron. what would be the most cost effective things to do (and most simple)
i am considering upgrading the capacitors inside it, but as most (if not all of them) are Elna cerafine anyway, i dont see much point and i doubt i will get much, if any improvement by doing so.
should i put a new clock, such as the 'superclock' in, and if so which one should i chose? |
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| Kill-Pres-Bush |
Hello fellow Brit. I cannot comment on the electrical mods you mention, but I can suggest some mechanical mods. All 3 of my CDP's have benefitted from dampening.
You could go to Maplin's and buy Brown Bread Roll (very similar to the very over-priced Dynamat); or Akasa pax.mate computer dampening matting; or Dynamat (available from Halfords). Blu-tack is also a very good dampening material - but I don't advise you use it on the underside of the top cover in case it falls onto the transport. The Akasa is a fairly light product; so I don't believe it is as effective a dampener as Dynamat or Brown Bread; but it may well be totally adequate for the purposes of CDP dampening.
Open your cd player (you might need a Torx T-10). Cover the underside of the top cover with the dampening material you chose (make sure you can still re-assemble the cover onto the chassis). Be brave and remove the pcb and transport from your chassis. Place dampeneing material everywhere you can on the chassis; again making sure that you can re-assemble PCB and transport. Place little strips on the transport sides. You might even want to try dasmpeneing the clock - get some good old blu-tack and wack a tiny bit on the clock (the clock is usually encased in a can and is situated near the DAC (the biggest chip on the pcb).
Adding mass and dampening is one of the best mods you can do for a CDP IMO.
Whilst you are at it - remove the feet of your CDP and see if they are hollow (they often are). If hollow - fill them full of blu-tack and re-assemble.
At the end of this your CDP will weigh up to 1kg more and will be better able to absorb vibration. I have found that sound resolution does improve with this mod.. |
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| Pan2 |
fezz,
I would strongly advise you to check out LC Audio´s parts for upgrading CDP´s.
I have modified a SCD-XB940 and a Marantz CD63KI-SE with the LClockXO2 and Zapfilter2 and both players became regular high end machines.
/Peter |
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| rickpt |
Hi fezz
I have been modifying my marantz cd6000 for the last 8 months...
You can do some simple things to improve your player.
First go to the link that preatorious provided, there you can find the cd6000 schematic. The ose version is similar but for me it sound's worse...
Grab the schematic and let's start...
1- Remove the mute transistors but be careful when connecting and disconnecting the player.
2-remove de the 100pf caps in parallel with the output. The typical capacitance of your audiophile cable is enough. The caps are: 2227, 2228
3-if you don’t use the headphones out, remove it... you will be surprised:D
Cut some tracks and 2 jumpers and you are done
4-replace the hdam, use opamps... my favorite is the ne5532 but the final choice is up to you but, with the other ones you only going to hear more distortion...also remove the output hdam
5-remove the caps labeled: 2111, 2112, 2117, 2118. I don’t use bypass caps any ware... listen and you will see;)
Here are some simple mods... if you want more contact me on my personal e-mail ;)
Don’t waist money on caps and clock's... the return investment is small...
Best regards
Ricardo |
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| jean-paul |
Hello Fezz,
I would certainly waist money on a better clock since it really impoves your player. Modified a lot of cdplayers with clocks and after all I dare to day it is 50 % of all possible mods.
Elso Kwak's or Guido Tent's are some clocks you can choose. It really is an enormous improvement in some players. I never had one player that became worse or stayed the same if you would like to hear that as a assuring remark.
Concerning opamps there is some choice. Better drop-in replacements for NJM2114 are : OPA275, OPA2134, OP249 or OPA2604. I have experience with all of them and for me the 2604 and 2134 are the better choices. YMMV.
NJM2114 is in fact a modern replacement for a NE5532.
Others are AD8620 but it is available in SMD format only. Have received them recently, no experience with them yet ( stories are promising ). One could also use single opamps like OPA627 or AD825 ( SMD again ) but a special adapter is necessary if you want to use them. Price is high I have to warn you.
Further I agree with Ricardo maybe except for replacing the HDAM's for opamps. |
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| Stryder |
| case damping will be the most significant mod to that player. |
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| jean-paul |
Stryder, did you ever build in a clock ? I did in tens of cdplayers varying from this Marantz, Marantz CD60's, Marantz CD63's, Marantz CD65's, Marantz CD67, Marantz CD80's , Pioneer PD 204, Teac VRDS 10's, to a Copland CDA288. Just to mention a few.
Damping is very good to do but the clock is the heartbeat of the player.
If the heart isn't good ( a simple crystal with an inverter IC isn't ) one can use damping as much as one likes and the player will never be top league. |
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| Stryder |
| I'm not one to beat round the bush. I was just trying to raise the profile of damping as a mod; too many people overlook it or scorn it. Clock-change is a powerful mod that I have heard is worthwhile to do; but when all is said and done damping is as good or better and much much cheaper and less hassle. |
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| jean-paul |
| I suggest to do both: damping and a better clock. The sum of all mods will be a even better player. |
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| rickpt |
Hi
Op amps are a matter o taste... but until you give me some proof, like distortion figures, that the opamp's you mention are better, they aren’t better, but simply different.
Go to Douglas self web site and see the distortion figures of the opamp's you propose... no comments
Many people like pass aleph power amps but I don’t like them, it's one of the worst amplifier I ever heard:xeye:
If you guys like to listen to distortion...I don’t...
Audio in the end is just a mater of taste...
About the clock... did you measure the jitter specs after you installed the clock? Do you have a proof that the clock is better? How do you connect the clock to the main board? What measures did you take to assure that your clock isn’t polluting various stages of your cd player with RF noise?
Sorry for all the question's...
Sorry, I only believe in myself
Best regards
Ricardo
Ps: I’m not trying to offend anybody... it's just my point of view |
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| jean-paul |
Hi Ricardo,
On paper they may distort more but in practice they sound more neutral as experienced by a lot of people. There are more parameters of a chip that have influence on the soundquality than distortion alone. Just type one of the typenumbers here in the Search function and you will see. You don't have to believe me of course but please try them if you like. I know the site you mention and I am aware the NE5532 has the lowest distortion of them all. But is 0.005 % something you or I can hear ? It is not only a matter of taste, NE5532 is sonical old cake. Mr Self hasn't any info on his site about sonical differences, it's only measurements to prove the NE5532 is the best there is.
The clock I use has 3 ps jitter according the manufacturer and is mounted by me on a PCB with it's own supply in a metal box to prevent it from straying around. The way it is connected I am not going to explain as there are numerous sites with that info. The proof that it is better is heard by all owners of players in which I have built the clock in. Some of them respond quite emotional when they have their player at home and they listen to it for the first time with a better clock.
It is good to believe in yourself but it is not good to believe only in yourself.
Regards,
Jean-Paul
PS Fezz please leave the Cerafines where they are. They are OK. |
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| Stryder |
you could damp the clock, caps, and ic's....
even more magic.. |
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| rickpt |
Hi jean paul
Do you have a neutral system so I can compare my amplifiers and the opamp's?
I have tried all the opamp's you mention...and also, you can try the NE again just for fun:D
Mr. Self only states something when he as prof's about it... at least he can backup is statement's...
Listening is very subjective as you know...
And what type of cable do you use to connect the metal case to the main board? Cables can be an antenna as you probably know... and by the way, manufacturers state a lot of things...do you believes in them??lolol:confused:
Further reading: http://fnt-www.ss.titech.ac.jp/~haj...ortion/opa.html
Until you give me some solid proof, I won’t believe...
Best regards
Ricardo |
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| Wombat |
Sorry to repeat myself, but try to replace The Dual OP AMPS
with AD826AN.
LCaudio or others just want to sell you something with the High-End
Adaptors and 2xAD825s in a High-End Socket Adaptor cause a single drop-in
AD826 won´t make any money.
Try it - it is only some Euros. |
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| jean-paul |
Hi Wombat,
Never tried the AD826. Did you compare them with the above mentioned opamps ?
I will try them because they are new to me. And always open to changes. Have tried other AD non audio opamps like the cfb types as AD844. After a year their noise was higher compared to when they were new.
Just saw the datasheet at :
http://www.analog.com/productSelection/pdf/AD826_b.pdf
and it looks promising only noise figures are very high a I expected. Thanks for the tip ! |
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| fezz |
wow lots of replys - i am still quite reluctant to do some major mods like changing the hdam but i might...
i will definatly use some sort of damping material in the case as it seems quite important (the ose version comes with an extra base plate and a supporting bar acros the top of the chassis to keep it rigid - the ki version is even stronger and comes copper coated)
i will probably do some very basic mods first like a better power cable - the new one will be sheilded so there is less interferance with the phono cables
is it worth grounding the case or will this cause distruption in the eletronics as it looks like some sort of grounding is used already?
as for clock upgrades, which is the best one? (i reaslise there may be some conflict op opinion here) also are there any ones i can build myself? |
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| rickpt |
Hi jean paul
Since you didn’t reply I’m going to make you some further questions...
Can you explain me all those obscure magic parameters of the chip that influence on the sound quality?
For me it's quite simple... less thd means fewer harmonics generated when a signal is amplified and that means better sound
Look at what you say..."it's only measurements to prove the NE5532 is the best there is". :confused:
If it measures better, it is better... electronics is an objective science, don’t see why audio electronics should be different... maybe audio electronics don’t respect the laws of pyshics :D
in the end, if you prefer a device with higher distortion, I don’t care, but if you are claming that the device you propose is better, you will have to prove it... you will never know who will be on the other side making some questions...Don’t say it's better, say it's different...
And yes, I can hear if my system has less distortion, if you can’t... sorry
About the clock did you remember that the cable supplying the mains power to the clock could be working as an antenna emitting noise coming from the mains and noise coming back from your precious clock? did you remember that more power supplies means more noise and more garbage coming from the mains polluting your cd player?(peter daniel are you there? ;) love your amplifier cases. Sorry they can’t amplify audio signals, only electronics can do that..:D )
In the end you don’t know what you are doing and talking about, and you have no way to prove that you are right...
Best regards and no hard feelings :)
Ricardo |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | In the end you don’t know what you are doing and talking about, and you have no way to prove that you are right... |
Sorry if I don't check your replies continuously. Sometimes I am busy with other things as 24 hours audio only tends to get boring.
I have had my share of agressive replies the last days and I am certainly not interested in yet another useless discussion with yet another Mr Know-it-all. I really don't have to prove a thing to you and my goal is not to be "right". Just sharing experience.
Please lecture somebody else in electronics. Like I just read below Mr. Ken Ishiwata can learn something from you.
Stay happy with the NE5532 :D ,
Jean-Paul |
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| rickpt |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fezz
[B] (the ose version comes with an extra base plate and a supporting bar acros the top of the chassis to keep it rigid - the ki version is even stronger and comes copper coated)
Did you know of a thing called marketing? Mr. Ken ishiwata is a master at it... if you look at the schematic of the famous hdam buffer; it's a simple folded cascode with a complimentary FET buffer stage... there nothing special about that, simply marketing strategy
You guys should stop reading audio brochures and start reading some electronics books :D
Marketing rules the world :xeye:
Best regards |
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| rickpt |
stryder I won’t reply to you... I won’t go to your level of conversation...its people like you that make this excellent forum loose their best members...
Regards |
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| rickpt |
Hi jean paul...
That was the kind of reply I expected from you...
My final post on this matter...
You admit that the NE measures better... so why it doesn’t sound better?
Make that question to yourself and try to answer it. You will end with much better knowledge about analog audio design...
Best Regards |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
For me it's quite simple... less thd means fewer harmonics generated when a signal is amplified and that means better sound
....
If it measures better, it is better... electronics is an objective science, don’t see why audio electronics should be different... maybe audio electronics don’t respect the laws of pyshics :D |
If it measures better, it is better. Well this could be true if the measurements that are most often used were actually meaningful.
Take THD for instance. Without a plot of the spectrum of the harmonics this measurement is total useless. And in many cases it can be worse than useless, it can be a "marketing tool". In the late 70s & 80s there was many a manufacturer that kept pushing the fedback up to get ever lower & lower THD numbers. The fact was that the lower the number the more worse these sounded, because althou the THD was down the number and amount of much more obnoxious higher order harmonics increased.
Blind adherance to your simple philiosopy of measurement rules is a blind alley that will not lead you to audio nirvana, but to the looney bin.
dave |
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| Chris |
I own a marantz cd63 mkII and have applied a few simple mods.
I have dampened the chassis with buitemin pads (not sure if the spelling is correct). I got the pads at a car accessories store. People use them for noise and vibration damping in cars. I increased the weight of the cd-player with 3-4 kg`s. The sound was better in the lower frequencies after the mod.
Recently i borrowed some nordost pulsarpoints with positve results. The sounstage (wider and deeper) improved when using pulsarpoints. These are unfortunatly expensive.
At this site you can find somewhat relevant information about marantz cdp mods:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html
Upgrading your cdp`s clock is good tweek. Info about making your own clock you can find here:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t708955/cunos.htm
Picture of pulsarpoints: |
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| rickpt |
I planet 10
This is becoming a nice discussion
Do you only measure thd at 1 kHz like those manufacturers did? Measuring distortion at other frequencies gives other clues about the amplifier performance...
people from the hole world comes to this forum... some of them likes valves, some of them like pass labs amps, some of them like the opamp x, some of them the y...
That’s subjective and I have nothing against it...I don’t discuss people's tastes
Now if you don’t like or don’t believe in measurement’s you only can say that you prefer the opamp x instead of the opamp y
And if you only do that I will have nothing to say, but people don’t usually do that, they only try to prove that something is better because sounds better to them and they don’t have nothing real to prove that the sound or the performance of the device is better and they are right. Those people are wrong; they only want to prove that they are right...
So many times I’ve read personal attacks on person's because they have a different way of thinking, some of those person's didn’t even listen to the opamp in question :confused: read the various threads regarding the NE5532/34 an you will see...
Arrogance and and the lack of open mind to other kind of knowledge makes this kind of behavior...
Best Regards to all the forum members
Ricardo |
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| fezz |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
Marketing rules the world :xeye:
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yes, it does, which is why i need to question if these improvements are worthwhile - is it worth strengethening the chassis? - reading a review of the OSE and KI on the same website shows that the review people feel that the CD players are good at both price levels - so this means that Ken Ishiwata is not only a master of marketing but a master of improving hi fi stuff.
do you agree? |
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| rickpt |
I have listen to the all the version of the marantz cd 6000 player. I prefer the basic 6000
You may prefer the other ones… instead of believing in people and magazines go to a hi-fi shop and listen to them all… then you can believe in yourself… but one thing to remember Mr. Ken ishiwata is trying to sell you an equipment…
About the damping, try it… it’s the only way you are going to learn if it work’s or don’t work’s
Regards |
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| Chris |
Hi
I`am about to try some mods to my cdp (Marantz cd63mkII). One of the changes I want to do is to replace the opamps. I`ll use opa627 and opa637 (making my own adaptor for this mod).
And i might not use the HDAM modules..
Any coments on this ??
Chris |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
o you only measure thd at 1 kHz like those manufacturers did? Measuring distortion at other frequencies gives other clues about the amplifier performance... |
This would make the THD measurement a 2D manifold in 3-space which would actually be something very useful -- it would take some skill to interperet.
| quote: | | Now if you don’t like or don’t believe in measurement’s you only can say that you prefer the opamp x instead of the opamp y |
It is not that i don't believe in measurements, just that it is clear that they cannot tell us (yet anyway) what something sounds like.
And in the end the purpose of a hifi is so we can listen to the music and the only one we need to satisfy is ourselves. Different people will have different listening bias/preferences and what allows them to enjoy the music more is the better one.
Saying something measures better, does not mean it is better, because we still only measure a very small subset of the performance of the DUT. A measurement can help us find out things quantitatively that we hear qualitatively and as such is a useful tool to (hopefully) help improve a piece of kit. But i don't watch music on an ocsilloscope or a meter, i listen to it with my ears.
I do note that in a later post than the one i quote, that you suggest that one goes listen to the piece of gear in question, not to go measure it, so i guess even you do not believe that if it measures better it is better :D
dave |
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| Stryder |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
I have listen to the all the version of the marantz cd 6000 player. I prefer the basic 6000
You may prefer the other ones… instead of believing in people and magazines go to a hi-fi shop and listen to them all… then you can believe in yourself… but one thing to remember Mr. Ken ishiwata is trying to sell you an equipment…
About the damping, try it… it’s the only way you are going to learn if it work’s or don’t work’s
Regards |
You have this air of arrogance... I would like to learn from you and understand the point you are making - but all I see is someone that believes they know everything dismiss all the mods that are being suggested.
Damping works bud. It is an obvious tweak to do to a CDP; just like it is an obvious tweak for a turntable. CDP's have spinning motor that imparts vibration into the chassis and pcb; that vibration can cause laser to become less precise and cause the pcb to ring with microphonics. Damping also prevents outside vibrations from reaching the CDP. Damping improved all 2 players I tried it on; in fact it changed the character drastically on these players (it was not a subtle change): Denon DCD-835 (got rid of it's over-brightness and improved low bass) and Marantz CD36 (improved everything).
So.. explain to me why damping WOULDN'T work? |
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| Pan2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
Don’t waist money on caps and clock's... the return investment is small...
Ricardo |
And how many clocks did you say that you have installed in CD/SACD players?
FYI, the improvement after a clock mod is B-I-G and probably one of the most cost effective upgrades one can do in a digital hifi rig.
/Peter |
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| fezz |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
I have listen to the all the version of the marantz cd 6000 player. I prefer the basic 6000
You may prefer the other ones… instead of believing in people and magazines go to a hi-fi shop and listen to them all… then you can believe in yourself… but one thing to remember Mr. Ken ishiwata is trying to sell you an equipment…
About the damping, try it… it’s the only way you are going to learn if it work’s or don’t work’s
Regards |
i did, i thought, as the price suggests, that the Ki version sounded better, but i couldn't justify the extra cost so i settled with the ose version (which I though sounded better then the standard one) although the standard version is appealing to me now due to the reduced components which makes it easier to mod.
finally, can u name a hi-fi manufacturer that isn't trying to sell u equipment? |
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| Stryder |
One of the big differences between a £400 CDP and a £1000 CDP is the £200 of heavier machined casing in the latter.
Damping makes sense. You can also do a lot more than even KI managed on his Signature. You can stick blu tack or rubber o-rings under the pcb supports. Seldom do they offer adequate pcb support and damping on <£400 CDP's. In fact you can use great pillars of blu tack under flappy unsupported areas of the pcb. This change alone can resolve the majority of microphonic issues (glare, lack of bass, imprecision). All <£400 CDP's are still comprimised. Beyond £400 most CDP's are remarkbly similar from a cost of electronics viewpoint to £1000 players. It's transport (sometimes a die-cast), case work and power supply from there on in. Then again - maybe you have one of the many +£700 players that shares it's transport with £100 players.
Whatever.. damping always improves performance. |
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| rickpt |
Hi Dave
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? You can say that it’s better to you, or the sound is better to you this or you prefer this part or device, but you can’t say it’s better!
Can you see my point of view? Audio is very subjective…
Arrogance is trying to say that something is better! when it’s only better to you, maybe it isn’t better to me or to other person…
Regards |
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| Stryder |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
Hi Dave
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? You can say that it’s better to you, or the sound is better to you this or you prefer this part or device, but you can’t say it’s better!
Can you see my point of view? Audio is very subjective…
Arrogance is trying to say that something is better! when it’s only better to you, maybe it isn’t better to me or to other person…
Regards |
What are you talking about? |
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| ergo |
Hey fellows, there is one more reason that could explain superiority of other opamps in Marantz opposed to NE5532. As you most likely agree NE5532 is made for audio signals - right? Well the DAC chip in Marantz put out a lot of **** way outside the audio spectrum and I think this is one of the reasons that audio opamps don't perform well in this circuit. Is it IMD or something else I don't know I can only see spectrum up to 20k with my setup... :(
I used LM6172 in my CD67 and in many after that and always felt that there is huge improvement in sound because of this.
**
Anyway, the simplest and cheapest trick in all the Marantz players mentioned is to get rid of the electrolytic caps (ELNA-s back to back) at the signal output. As there has not been any DC of more than +/- 20mV in the players I have modified I have considered it safe to just put wire jumpers in these places. Try this and you will be positively surprised.
In my experience the electrolytics are very bad idea if there is no DC component on them, they **** the sound even if the caps are made by ELNA.
Ergo |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? You can say that it’s better to you, or the sound is better to you this or you prefer this part or device, but you can’t say it’s better!
Can you see my point of view? Audio is very subjective… |
I can see your point of view (at least the last bit) because it is my point of view, and you made some erroneous assumptions to assume different. But there are NO objective means to test stuff that will prove something is better, so all we are left with is listening. And what is better is for the individual to decide -- with their ears.
Now if you get a significant sample of people who hear that something is better, or someone who has a good track record of hearing that something is better, then you can be more confident that it will sound better.
And some things make such large differences that almost everyone hears the improvement.
dave |
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| Pedja |
| quote: | Originally posted by rickpt
How can you say that something is better, without objective statements to prove that the performance is better? |
I tried, and I tried… and did not resist… How can you say that something is anything (better or worst, good or bad) without objective proof that even exists? Man, you don’t talk about the hi-fi. Read everything you can find from Decart to Wittgenstein or Peter Strawson. They dealt with the things that you now concern with.
Pedja |
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| rickpt |
Hi Dave
Let’s end this... i see no point in further discunsing this...my point was clear... and my post's have became rather unplesant to the comunity so this will be my last...
To Chris: you can certainly try it without the hdam... in the cd 63 it's just a unity gain amplifier and has no filter attached to it... the cd43/53 are equal to the 63 but without the hdam and different parts selection. Look at the service manual and you will see this
the opa627 and is brother 637 are good choices but try all the other ones, even the ones people say that they suck... you will gain experience in doing that. And read carefully the manufacturer's datasheet...
To ergo: I don’t agree with you, this is my opinion: the sm5872bs is a voltage output dac and if you look at the application note or the marantz schematic, you will see an RC filter between the dac output and the both input's of the opamp so the problem you are talking about will be much smaller... know let's look at the burr brown part like the pcm1738 that has current output and the typical application is I/V converter based on opamp's. all the out of band noise will enter directly in the inverting input of the opamp, without any filtering, creating IMD problems you talk about. That’s why so many people don’t like I\V converters based on opamp's.
About the caps I agree whit you...but on my marantz 1 of the channels had 100mv of offset, so measure before making the mod.
Best regards
Ricardo
Ps: What you guys shouldn’t do... :) http://www.raymondaudio.nl/projects...4/project4.html |
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| Wombat |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jean-paul
[B]Hi Wombat,
Never tried the AD826. Did you compare them with the above mentioned opamps ?
Hi Jean-Paul!
Well over the last months i had all types of OPs
i can buy around here in my DAC.
So all testing is just for my DAC.
But into it the AD826 outperformed all with its
unbelievable relaxed and analytic sound.
Extremely musical.
I use the LM6172 in the lowpass. When adding a LM6172
as buffer amp everything is to hard but analytic as
the AD826 i think. The AD826 sounds somehow more
musically.
Far ahead of the 5532, NJM2114, All OPAS (maybe the 2604
has some strenghts), op275 (also musical) and 4570 from NEC.
These are all i had so far. |
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| Stryder |
| quote: | Originally posted by planet10
And some things make such large differences that almost everyone hears the improvement. |
damping. |
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| mrfeedback |
Bluetack sounds like **** imho.
Eric. |
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| mozfet |
Just read this thread twice and I still dont believe it!
rickpt, where have you been the past 20 years? Objective Tests on Audio Equipment will not tell you how it sounds. Now this has been covered so much in the past 20 years in the press that it is just not worth going over again. I have replaced a lot of NE5532 and NE5534 with various devices and all have sounded better, I would urge you to try some of the alternatives suggested, but please dont listen with your THD Meter we have far more discriminating devices that come free at birth.
'There are those that Know, and those that don't Know, and there are those that don't Know they don't Know'
Mozfet :D |
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| KevinLee |
Does anyone know if a LM6172 will drop into a Marantz CD63/67 without any other mods?
Thanks
KevinLee:) |
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| Wombat |
Yes it fits, but i won´t have to much expectations from this mod.
These cheap players have mostly cheap clocks and power-supplies
A LM6172 will brutally show these flaws and can sound horrible. |
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| Pan2 |
Agree with wombat.
First upgrade for these players is a clock, no discussion.
No2 is to clean up the analog stages, but I wouldn´t use the Marantz own as it is. Big board, several opamps, not so good buffers, bad PS and so on.
Might as well do a discrete highend analog stage with dedicated PS. I upgraded a CD63 with LClock and Zapfilter, actually the biggest improvement was with the clock...
.... well both where huge improvements but the clock was a real jaw-dropper... never expected the result that I got.
After this I would play with feets, cables/cords and damping.
/Peter |
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| KevinLee |
Wombat & Pan,
I should re-phase my question.
I have already carried out numerous upgrades/mods to my cd63 in the power supply and analog stages. I have tried a couple of different op-amps already.
My question is, will the LM6172 work in my player without any further mods or additions to the LM6172 itself?.
Please let me know.
Or if you have any other suggestions for op-amps. I would appreciate it.
Thanks
KevinLee:) |
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| Wombat |
google search: marantz cd 67 op
This site shows it uses the NJM2114:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html
The LM6172 should fit!
Suggestion!?
Well, meanwhile everyone that reads what i write knows i am in love with the AD826. |
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| ergo |
LM6172 is a drop in to this player but I suggest you add at least one important thing - a cap between V+ and V- pins of the opamp.
Marantz's decoupling as is is not quite as good as needed for this fast opamp. Use for exaple as big SMD ceramic cap as you can get and are able to put into the player. I usually install these on top of the opamp.....
Ergo |
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| jnxw2 |
I am going to short out the electrolytic caps (ELNA-s back to back) at the signal output on my CD6000OSE as sugested by ergo. However I don't have the service manual so I would be very gratefull if somebody could confirm that they are 2219, 2221, 2222 and 2220 before I start desoldering.
Thanks and I'll be sure to let you know if there's much of a difference
James |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi Ergo,
I got some kind of error in Polish I suppose when clicking the link!:confused: |
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| jnxw2 |
Thanks Ergo Ill remove them this evening
James
PS I get that polish error as well :confused: |
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| garmin |
I have also some other Marantz CD players schematics like CD14, CD17, CD72, CDX94, I can place it on my www site if You want.
Best Regards
arek |
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| Pedja |
Yes, We want. Thanks.
Pedja |
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| jnxw2 |
Right I've just taken out the caps, and added a bit of blue tac around all supports for the pcb. I think there is a definite improvement in the sound. The only problem now is I get a fairly loud noise through the speakers when I press Stop or Play :(
Oh well...life is a compromise I guess. I still think its worth doing though
James |
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| Pedja |
Hi James,
If noise means clicks, it is the result of the DC offset at the output and should disappear if/when you minimize offset to a few mV.
Pedja |
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| jnxw2 |
Yes its like one loud click every time I start or stop a CD. Unfortunatly I am a newbie at all this and I wouldnt have a clue how to minimize offset. Is it a relativly easy thing to do or is it for people with more advanced skills?
Thanks
James |
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| ergo |
jnxw2 - if you have a DMM (digital multimeter) then with mV-DC measurement range measure the voltage between cd player case and the output RCA center contacts.
The voltage has usually been no more than 10mV on either + or - side. For example the CD17 mkII on my floor that just got the same modification had +0.4mV DC on output pins....
Ergo |
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| jnxw2 |
I have just checked, I have a voltage of about 200mV. Apart from the clicks on starting or stoping the cd I can't hear anything when its playing, and the sound is MUCH better.
So is the DC a problem and if so is there a way of reducing it?
Thanks
James |
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| ergo |
Is the voltage this much off for both channels or just one?
Can you check the voltage on the optional OSE HDAM module contacts (marked TKC-A 1212 on schematic) pins 2,5,8,11
These should all read 0V or +/- 10mV
If this is so the offset comes from the last discrete HDAM module, if not then the already the opamps have DC offset....
Ergo |
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| jnxw2 |
I took the player apart to try and mesure the voltages but I'm afraid my knowledge/skills aren't up to the job as I couldnt find the pins...:confused:
The DC voltage is about +200 on the Left channel and -130 on the right channel. But apart from the clicks is this a problem?
James |
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| ergo |
If you amplifier is not totally DC coupled then this can not do any harm (very very few are).
You can make sure if you disconnect a speaker cable and put it back while you have an amp input set to CD input. If the speaker cone doesn't move quite stronlgy when you reconnect the cable there is no problem...
I think this cap removal always makes the player sound so much better that even little clicks and pops are acceptable :)
Ergo |
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| ergo |
Basicly you can measure the voltages on both opamps pins 1 and 7
These are actually the same as the pins I was referring to before. These are opamp outputs and the DC should show 0V here (or few mV as said previously.....
Ergo |
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| jnxw2 |
I tried the test as you recommended and there is no problem, the cones don't move at all, and yes I would definetly agree that the better sound is worth a few clicks.
As for the opamp outputs, I can't find any! The only opamp I can find is for the Headphone out. Is this maybe because I have the OSE version? According to the shematic only the standard CD6000 have those opamps before the HDAM module??
James |
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| ergo |
Ouuu, sorry I forgot that you might have OSE version.
Then you see these additional HDAM modules that are lifted off from main PCB by connector pins. Take the row of pins on the "player backside" side of the HDAM modules. It should have 12 pins and if you are lucky the pin nr. 1 is marked somehow.
Now the pins that I'm talking about are nr. 2,5,8,11
If you can't find the marking for pin 1 measure the voltage on the two pins on the both ends of the pin row with DMM + lead and - lead connected to chassis. The pin that shows +12V is the pin 12.
Hope this all makes sense :)
Ergo |
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| jnxw2 |
Thanks Ergo, perfect explanation!
I have just checked the pins and there is quite a lot of offset:
pin 2 is 25mV, pin 5 is 70mV, pin 8 is -100mV and pin 11 is 115mV.
The problem obviously comes further upstream. Is there much I can do to correct it or should I just leave it? Obviously I'd like to keep going if I can seeing as Im learning so much :)
Thanks
James |
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| jnxw2 |
Also, I know this might be going off on a tangent slightly but would I be right in thinking that 7227, 7228, 7229 and 7300 are muting transistors? and if so would it be safe to remove them?
Thanks
James |
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| ergo |
jnxw2 - aaaa you are on to something here.
As your amp is immune to small DC offset it seems that this might exactly solve your problem + improve the sound some.
At the moment when player mutes the output it shorts the small DC offset to ground and the clicks you hear are from swithing moments. If you remove the mute transistors these clicks should disappear. Of course there might a chance that new clicks appear when changing track etc.
Ergo
PS. Changing the DC offset in HDAM modules is not very easy. Most likely the transistors are not mached quite perfectly. You would need to buy them and select very carefully, but these are most likely hard to get and might cost quite a bit. Other way would be to replace some resistors with small pots but this is also difficult... |
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| jnxw2 |
Ergo, you are the man!!
I took them out and no more clicks or pops at all! :)
Not only that but sound wise its like a whole new player, it is SO much better:D
Thanks so much
James |
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| MO |
First post :xeye: Reading through this I noticed the argument between rickpt and, well.... everyone else :D I think the main reason behind your different points were where trying to say
: if a component is superior in performance as an electronic component does this nescessarily mean it is better as an audiophile component?
not sure if this should be posted here or in a new thread. however, I was hoping to catch the attention, and opinions of those involved :D |
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| Pan2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MO
: if a component is superior in performance as an electronic component does this nescessarily mean it is better as an audiophile component?
:D |
Of course!
/Peter |
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| Chris |
I just removed the muting transistors and shorted out the electrolytic caps in the signal path in my Marantz cd63 mkII.
I also replaced the opamps with a pair of BB opa2134.
Conclusion: I like it. More dynamic sound and a better soundstage.:D
Next up: The clock... |
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| Mad_K |
| Chris; let us know how the OPA2604 sounds in comparison... (I'm curious) Come on, try it, try it!!! :radar: |
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| KevinLee |
Hello,
I have done the same things to my CD63 as Chris. Removed muting resistors and dc output caps, replaced diodes with Fairchild Stealth diodes etc.
I currently have OPA2132 in my player and I do not like the sound at all. I much prefered the sound with AD827.
The BB op-amps are too 'slow' and 'vailed' for my liking, I like speed & resolution.
I have some OPA2604 that I could put in, but I figured they would not sound much different than what I have in now.
Has anybody paralled op-amps? and what experiences have they had? (literally stacking/soldering two op-amps on top of each other)
Thanks
KevinLee |
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| fezz |
an update:
ive removed the muting transistors - and swapped the HDAM for two OPA2604's - im now at a loss of what to do - i would like to put in a new clock but i dont know how to and i would like to make my own and would like good guides - if anyone could help PLEASE |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by fezz
an update:
ive removed the muting transistors - and swapped the HDAM for two OPA2604's - im now at a loss of what to do - i would like to put in a new clock but i dont know how to and i would like to make my own and would like good guides - if anyone could help PLEASE |
Just have a look here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...15&pagenumber=2
My second post on this page gives links to earlier threads.
;) |
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| Chris |
Kwak Clock vs. Cunos clock (see my previous post).
Does anybody have any opinion on the difference in sound between the two clocks?
Is it realy nececary to get a new crystal to obtain god results? Does the Kwak clock reduce jitter?
:confused: |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi,
Hi Chris,
Cuno is referring to Guido Tent's clock.
Both my clock and Guido's clock are low jitter. Guido is offering a small encapsulated crystal oscillator while I am offering a circuit that works with the quartz crystal from the CD-player. Which one is better? Let others decide on that.....;) |
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| Guido Tent |
dear all,
The best clock is the one with lowest jitter, whereas a dedicated range of the spectrum should be realy low.
Comparing clocks by ear is a process with many pitfalls, as a certain type of jitter can mask artefacts of the system.
If you like that, it is OK to me, but It is not my cup of tea.
If you want a basis for high resolution, low distortion, low stress audio, a real low jitter clock is required (ofcourse more is, but you should start somewhere).
In order to measure the jitter, a Wavecrest jitter analyser is the only suitable tool.
All other measurement equipement is a waste, as it is not possible to go as low as 3 ps.
A spectrum analyser can help, but should be used with great care and interpreted the right way around.
all the best
Guido |
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| Wombat |
Sorry for not reading all threads...
Was there a Jitter measuring on the Elso or Guido clock and
how they compare from a measuring point of view!?
Or is this all just David against David? |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi Wombat,
I am sorry I can't offer any jitter specs for my clock. I don't have access to that kind of expensive equipment. The goal of my clockmod is good sound and the KWAK-CLOCK is developed with that purpose in mind, entirely by ear. And I have a 200MHz scope and a pair of Klipschorns.
:wave2: |
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| Chris |
Hi
Thanks Elso for sending me the schematic for your clock :)
I have a question: Is it really neccesary to use a scope to adjust the clock to obtain good results or is it enough to adjust the voltage of the pot to somewhere between +0.5 and +0.6 volt?
And another question: When designig a pcb board for thr clock is there any does and dont`s regarding placement of the components?
:scratch:
Chris |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi Chris,
ideally you should use a scope to adjust the duty cycle. But I found in my player is still worked with the pot grossly misadjusted. It depends somewhat on the FET wihch voltage you get. You can also set the pot in between the two positions where it stops working.
To prevent interference form the output I place the FET and the crystal at the leftside of the comparator. As the supply connects to pin 1 and pin 4, the + supply is placed above pin 1 and the negative supply below pin 4 or at the rightside.
:bulb: |
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| fezz |
yesterday i put lots of dampening material (brown bread roll) into my player, this includes under the PCB and around the whole top inside.
i have definatly noticed some change in sound from this mod as well as the previous mads which were changing the HDAM to OPA2604's and putting a AC filter and IEC in, (resulted in a more defined mid range and the whole sound being much more transparant) this mod has made the music loose some of the 'edge' it has before, but it sounds clearer still so i am not sure if i like the results.
i am planning to put a new clock in, but this at the moment is restricted by other projects - as i am also making some gainclones |
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| ashok |
Hi Arek,
You said you would put up the schematic for the CD17 (MKII ?). I could not find it on your site. Will you be putting it up? You could also email it to me if possible.
Thanks.
Ashok. |
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| little blue |
hi go for it but be care full as these cd players can match the best of the hi end if tweaked properly i tweak them for a living im am the marantz guru i have modified over 20 players they are giant slayers cd 63 67 63 ki 6000 i must admit they take more work but they sound out of this world the 63 s 67 s are better in my ears only when modified read this one happy cosumer said this
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hi john
the player arrived back safely at 9.00 am this morning,a BIG THANKYOU FOR THAT.it has taken me awhile to connect it all back up.once set up i turned on & IT'S ABSOLUTELY AMAZING,& this is from cold, so fast forward 2 weeks,how will it sound then? i can't wait.it's playing now & i can't believe what i am hearing.it's the best sound i have ever heard,fast,crystal clear,no muddled midrange all instruments so coherent & one hell of a thumpy bass,& your telling me it will get even better, WOW!!!!!!.who would think that an ordinary marantz k.i. that was great before could possibly sound THIS FANTASTIC.john your work on this machine is nothing short of miraculous.A MASSIVE THANKYOU anybody wishing to contact me regarding your work feel free to give them my email address.i have messed around with different interconnects, speaker cables amps etc,but without a doubt this is the BEST upgrade i have ever had.john you are an absolute GENIUS mate.i will email you again soon just to let you know how it's performing.cheers for now.
many many thanks again,colin |
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| Luke |
| quote: | | I have had my share of agressive replies the last days and I am certainly not interested in yet another useless discussion with yet another Mr Know-it-all. I really don't have to prove a thing to you and my goal is not to be "right". Just sharing experience. |
Jean Paul, this is the best post Ive read on this forum, echos my sentiment:)
Ive been a bit bad and started a new project before I finish my philips cd650 upgrade. I bought a used cd6000 for around US$100.00. I have canabalised my cd67se for silmics and done 1mH inductors and bead to all supply lines bypassed output silmics and put silmics all over. Severe damping with bitumen pads and blue tac on transport. I havent ordered a clock yet. Done LM6172 upgrade. I will do separate torroidal and LM317,337 psu for analog.
My now ageing cd67se with good parts stole still has more soul than the CD6000. Its hard to make this call as its not a bad soundiing player now(was very thin)
Its like comparing a ferari with a volvo if thats a fair ccomparison.
CD67se has a zest to it, its more spacious, dynamic and to be honest I may order two clocks from Guido.
Comments anyone? |
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| JoeyDD |
Hi,
I was wondering if replacing the output capacitors 2219, 2220, 2221 and 2222 with a low/mid quality 110uF metallized polypropylene capacitor (SCR) be worth the cost? What about replacing them with a 100uF non-polarized cap like the blackgates?
Thank you.
Paul |
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| Luke |
| I just took mine out, put in a jumper and used the silmics elsewhere. I doubt weather the change is worth the money, Silmics are good caps. However the blackgates non polar would be my choice. |
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| JoeyDD |
Thank you for your reply Luke.
The blackgate option does seem more appealing then the MKP one, especially from a cost perspective.
I think I have everything figured out in order to mod this player, the only thing I'm missing is the player itself :cannotbe: lol
Am I right to assume that this would be a good (sound wise) and relatively inexpensive first player to mod?
Paul |
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| Luke |
have you read the TNT article by Thorsten for modding the cd67?
This is a good place to start and the player is quite similar. What surprised me how much replacing RC resitors with inductors and good caps.
Bitumen pads are also good, but the clock upgrade is by far the best IMO.
Just get an XO from tentlabs and add the recommended power supply circuit. |
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| kptseng |
Hi All,
Need some advice from you.
Attached below is a used CD6000 std version I managed to get.
Few questions:
1. Any suggestion in upgrading the yellow thing on the top left? The one marked by yellow X.
2. There are many small green and tiny red caps marked by red X in the right centre which I believe are polymer caps with values betweem 120pf and 150pf, can I change all to better caps but all at 150pf?
3. Any suggestion in upgrading the chip at the right bottom marked by blue X? Any point at all?
Thanks. |
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| little blue |
| hi if i were you i would for get abot the capacitors get a trichord clock 4 and a good power supply for it then sit back and enjoy a wonderful sound from this player |
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| Luke |
In my experience caps matter alot. But clock makes a the biggest difference.
I have read some spec sheets on the Marrantz 6000 range and they claim that the 6000 has one dac, the 6000ose and KI has 2 in differential mode. My 6000 has two dacs, Did they change their specs or was it a publishing error? |
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| kptseng |
Hi All,
First let me wish you a Merry Christmas.
With the holiday mood I added 4 heat-sinks to 4 voltage (the other 2 already have good heat-sinks so I left them alone); in addition I placed 2 heat-sinks on top of my Op-amps (AD826AN).
To heat-sink the Op-amps was a little tricky, I coated just a small dap of those heat-sink cream on the heat-sinks, then placed them carefully on top of the op-amps. Then slowly placed back the cover then connect the player back.
Results.......... NO AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE.
Well, lesson learned so not wasted.
Cheers. |
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