| testarossa2k |
I built the a 45 liters bass reflex cabinet with 8cm diam and 7,5 long port. Is there any way to fill the hole in frequency responce around 100hz?
Here's what I thought to do:
1) equalizer
2) passive equalizer circuit
3) adding mass to the cone. How?
how these affects the group delay and the phase response? because I'm using it with a sub with cross frequency at 100hz so I would like to have a synchronized sound....
Now I'm making some experiments with the length of the port |
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| Scottmoose |
Are we talking about the Fostex 45 litre box here? According to MathCad, and I've just modelled the box in the latest version of Martin King's worksheets to four decimal places, there, er, isn't a hole at 100Hz (or at least, not in 1/2 space). There is a hole at 150Hz in the horn, but IMO, the 206 horn isn't up to much. Ugly too.
Predicted response of the 45 litre reflex cabinet is attached; as you can see, it almost exactly matches what Fostex state: slowly decreasing bass with a peak (not sure if I'd call it 'controlled' though!) at 55Hz. If there's a big hole in the system response at 100Hz, then I'd say it's being cause by a room effect like floor-bounce, not a driver / cabinet characteristic. I don't like the reflex cab myself -you'd be much better off building Martin King's MLTL, or paying for Bob Brines's slightly more refined plans for a similar cabinet. They're an easy build -no harder than a reflex cabinet, won't be costly in materials, and you're unlikely to need a sub, except for frequencies below 40Hz. Alternatively, get them into a horn -again, a decent one will not require a sub except to support it below 40Hz.
I wouldn't advise adding mass to the cone -you might as well have bought a different driver in the first place; and there's a lot of potential for damaging the driver, which would be a shame. Adding some phase plugs will work wonders for the midrange and treble though -well worth doing. Damp the basket and the rear of the magnet with something like Ductseal. You could even try adding another magnet -just rip one off an old scrap pair of speakers out of a skip. Not a common idea, but might be worth a shot.
Crossing over to a single sub at 100Hz is a bad idea -anything over 70Hz is directional, so you'll be hearing frequencies between these two points coming from there, and everything else coming from your main speakers. Not so good. Two subs are needed if you want to XO over 70Hz IMO.
Get a BSC circuit on it too, if you want some more bass performance -you'll be loosing at least 3db through baffle-step diffraction. Depending on your amplifier, you might also want to add some series resistance. It'll lower the efficiency, but provide a more balanced response. Again, Martin's circuit, or Bob's, should do the job.
Hope this is of use
Scott |
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| Bob Brines |
There's a severe dip in the FR because 35l is way too big for the 206E. You might try an EBS alignment with a 20l box tuned to 50 Hz. As always, my recommendation for a ported box is the 207E, not the 206E. It can be done, by why accept all of the compromises.
Bob |
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| testarossa2k |
there's the hole, look at my graph using winisd and also other prog is the same. Ok it stays in the -6db limit and so you can hear it, also because the room will boost that frequency.
Could you show me your frequency responce but to 20k?
| quote: | | Damp the basket and the rear of the magnet with something like Ductseal. |
what it does this to the sound?
| quote: | | Adding some phase plugs will work wonders for the midrange and treble though -well worth doing |
I like the treble of fe206e
| quote: | | You could even try adding another magnet |
and this? I've seen some people adding addition magnet to lower the qts, right?
| quote: | | anything over 70Hz is directional |
it isn't 80hz?
anyway yes it is a bad idea for the most cases. But I place the sub beetween the two fostex, and I really don't notice the sound coming from there. Before I was using the sub at 150hz to completly fillup the hole:D I'm mad eh:smash: just in one song with a sax I could locate the sound, but the main problem was the resonce of the room at that frequency in few cds, you know at 150hz the sub it has a strong output. the quality was good aspecially the voices were so full, you know like pavarottii whoooooooooooooo but with a great cavernous voice.
| quote: | | Depending on your amplifier, you might also want to add some series resistance |
I'm using a DB technologies MT530 amplifier, do you know it? anyway I think it will drive anything...
| quote: | | There's a severe dip in the FR because 35l |
you mean 45l, right?
| quote: | | my recommendation for a ported box is the 207E |
yes but the last year when I built the speaker I was seeing a lot of people using that driver and saying it soud good in BR... infact it sound fantastic, it's just light on bass( it's one of the compromises you told?), but it deepends a lot of what you listen and especially from the records quality. I had them 30/40cm from the wall and was good until one time I tried with sub. Also the previous speaker I had had a good extension in bass region but man when the last day I tried they had not great bass.
thank you thank you |
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| Scottmoose |
MathCad only goes up to 1Khz as it models the driver / enclosure combination, and above that point, the only function of an enclosure is to provide a solid mounting point for the driver. With all due respect to WinISD, it's not in the same league as Martin's MathCad worksheets. However, you can still see the similar shape in the response, which drops away from 120Hz to a peak at ~55Hz. The graphs have different values which makes them look somewhat different.
The Fostex box is actually closer to being a short, mistuned MLTL than a reflex cabinet IMO. It's not a great design, as Bob points out & I agree 100% with everything he says. For reflex loading, it's too big, for QW loading, not really large enough, with a port that isn't tuned too well. Not too uncommon an alignment, if you can call it that, to have a decreasing bass down to a slightly high Fc, which peaks. Not one I'd ever suggest though.
70Hz. Actually, according to the latest findings, it's 72.874Hz, but we won't split hairs. ;) To each their own!
Damping the basket will kill resonances in the structure of the driver. Worth doing, especially as it costs very little and is completely reversable. The phase plugs will smooth the 206s treble and midrange; you won't loose any detail; in fact, you'll gain some insight if anything as they also remove the resonance caused by the hollow centre pole-piece under the dust-cap, which rings like crazy at about 3KHz or so. It takes away a little of the artificial brightness, but you'll find them a better driver in the long-term.
The 207 is indeed the better natural driver in a reflex or otherwise resonant cabinet, primarily because it's a higher Q (relatively -0.26 still isn't much), giving it better bass, but also it lacks the rising response of the 206, which was nominally intended to be re-balanced by horn loading. You can also bring it into line with a circuit, but you loose some efficieny that way. The plugs, as mentioned, help here too. The massive magnet of the 206 might give a whisker more detail, but it needs larger values in a compensation circuit, and more cabinet fettling to get working right.
Do yourself a favour: get them into a better cabinet. I know it's a hard thing to face up to, especially if you've put a lot of work into the enclosures. Believe me, I've been there, and it's a real pain.
But, you are not hearing your drivers at anything even remotely approaching their best at the moment, and there is very little you can do to improve your existing boxes. Martin's or Bob's MLTLs would be the automatic choice for an easy, relatively compact build.
Alternatively, if you have the space, get them into a horn. There are a few options here. The Factory horn design for the 206 isn't up to much, and looks horrible. However, their design for the FE208ESigma is much better, and the 206 will work quite well in it. I've just done a double-horn for the 8in Fostex speakers which should be nominally flat in-room to 30Hz or so (Bruce V1.1 -see the Spawn of Frugelhorn thread). Or a BIB -I suggested some dimensions for the 206 on the zillaspeak site: www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp
Any of these, MLTLs or horns, will allow your drivers to perform as nature intended; and they'll be transformed. You'll get more enjoyment out of your music in the long term -promise.
All the best
Scott |
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| testarossa2k |
mhh ok I accept your tips. Now I'm gonna try the free tricks and then if I'm not satisfied I will build a horn.
But could I use the sub with the horn for very low frequencies? are there some problem with delay with horns in the low end? |
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| blumenco |
its really really hard to sub a horn.
meaning that the speed of bass that comes out of a full range horn loaded is the sole reason to build a horn for it. to get a sub to catch up with that is very difficult indeed. it realistically does not happen, except in cases of good EQ and biamping, etc. lots and lots of money and fussing for a few octaves that the driver will put out better all on its own anyways.
the martin, bob boxes, I have not heard. seem to look solid for the driver.
the fostex recommended enclosure I think would perform well probably. I have not heard it, but have heard alot of good things about it. it might not be pretty, it is a tough build, but it is a nice orthodox squared off BLH megadynamic and nicely coloured sonically. something to consider.
there are alot of other nice options though. simpler, (lighter), for all practical purposes just as good.
I like the treble distortion from the dust cap too. it is fun and crazy sounding. admittably, these are not my only speakers though....so i do not have to live with it. some day I will get around to phase plugging a few of my drivers.
Clark |
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| Scottmoose |
| The Factory 206 BLH has a horrible response up to 200Hz. Not one of their best. OTOH, dropping them into the 208ESigma horn would be a heck of a good move. Now that one really is a great cab. Massive bass heft, looks far better, and a much smoother response too. The 206ES-R cabinet is an alternativbe of course -response falls somewhere between the two camps. |
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| blumenco |
yeah, Ill have to hear some more of the 8 inch blh stuff. I agree with you on the looks of the 208 cab. it is killer. conceptually makes sense too. especially from a baffle shrinking standpoint.
have you heard the recommended enclosure for the 206e?
my next big cabinet will be for 208es-r.
none till then. have to finish my thesis.
Clark |
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| Scottmoose |
You and me both -I've got another 25 months of my PhD to go yet.
Yes, I've heard the recommended 206 cabinet. Not impressed. Even less so when I decided afterward to run a few MathCad sims (I apply the same comments to the 166 BTW enclosure too. This cabinet type is not one of their best). The 208 box OTOH I heard recently at a friend's house, and came away very impressed indeed. With live Metallica, the floor was shaking (and I don't mean just lightly quivering) and it kicked you in the chest like a PA bass bin. Massive down to about 36Hz. I can understand why the mouth is hanging in mid-air when it's got that sort of grunt in the LF regions. |
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| Kofi Annan |
I have my 206Es in the 208EZ Fostex-recommended BLH and I love them.
Not that that's worth anything...
Kofi |
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| no xo |
| And I have 206`s in recommended horn and love the sound and look. I veneered them in red oak and staines the inside of the mouth black. I also have 206ESR in recommended horns, veneered in walnut, while they sound more detailed and extended than the 206`s, the 206`s get more compliments on looks than the bog 206 ESR horns do. Maybe because the 206ESR have a T90EX on top with exposed wires but they are on solid walnut mounts I like them both, 206ESR are in a 2 channel triode PP, with analog source, and the 206`s are mains in a HT system that I use 2 channell often as well. Both sound great and look good, but I spent alot of time finishing them. There`s my biased opinion, FWIW. |
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| testarossa2k |
I can't belive it!
today I get my hand on some old supertweeter magnets and I put them on the back plate of the fostex and surprise of surprises I get more middle/bass. ah now the voices are full and the instruments like electric bass ca be heard better. I noticed the cone is now moving less also....
Now I'm in search of bigger magnets:D
Question: Can I put them right in the center of the back plate of the speaker without the risk of coil overheating? I suppose yes because I don't see any vent on the backplate, right? |
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| Scottmoose |
You should be fine if it's not blocking any vents. As I mentioned before, it's not a very common tweak these days, but it can work. Sounds like it has for you anyway!
Of the Factory designs, the Sigma is the best best from modelled response & I can vouch for it's subjective performance. Goes far lower than the standard 206 cabinet, has a much flatter response. I still think it looks prettier too. Let's face it -you can't really argue with a pair of cabinets that look like this can you?
Kofi -didn't know it was you running the 206s in the 208 cab. Did you move up to those from the 108s? How does your floor stand up to the LF output? |
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| Ken L |
Something anybody running FE206E's ought to seriosly consider trying _grin_
I used to run FE206E's in my Azurahorns.
Moray James sent me a cool tweak - basically, just ground either the negative or positive side of the speaker terminals to the basket (chassis)
Easy to try - take a jumper with alligator clips on each end - put one clip on the chassis and the other on the red or black terminal.
There is a difference in the sound - at least with my system and quite a few others
There seems to be a slightly ( roughly 2DB+- ) lower output.
Also, maybe a tad less dynamics.
However, the overall result is a more pleasing and accurate sound.
May be different for different amp topolgies - dunno.
Just about everybody that heard the FE206E's preferred them in tweaked mode.
IIRC, mine sounded better with the jumper from the negative terminal grounded to the chassis |
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| bassrogue |
I started out using 206E's in 208 cab's and thought they sounded great. I switched to 206ESR's but kept the 208 cab. I was looking for a bit more DB from my 45 SET amp. The 45 is doesnt have much power so every little bit helps.
I also grounded the negitive terminal to the frame on both drivers, it made difference that I liked. Phase plugs for the 206ESR was the finishing touch.:cool::smash: |
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| fergs1 |
greeting Ladiies and Gentlemen, please dont forget the Dallas II designed by Ron Clarke and Fullrangedriver.com. I built this horn for the 206.It has a great bottom end and I implemented the folllowing 1.grounding chassis to -ve
2.Phase plug
3. fluffy baff gently wedged between whizzer and main cone
4. damp chassis(masses of blutack)
5. polystyrene disk(1 inch) on back of magnet
and in then end I felt I was pretty daarn close to getting the best out of this driver without resortind to drastic measures such as surgery on the whizzer or using coatings or totally desperate measures like notch filters(only kidding).I have since moved onto visaton b200 in open baffles and haven't looked back. Anyway i hope my post is useful in some way cheers fergs |
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| testarossa2k |
bluetack? is it a product for idraulics? It can be removed after the application just in case I want to go back?
The target is to lower the resonance of the basket, right?
Thank you to all, now I don't have to work again to make new cabinet, I put a lot of work in my BR box, they're strange and I like it so much.
Butt, I agree some horn looks very good, very aggressive also |
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| Scottmoose |
Ron's design is indeed excellent by all the accounts I've heard. But it's a pig to build unless you're pretty good with the old table saw, and have a decent selection of tools. Either this or the 208ESigma cabinet would be my top choices of popularly available 'proper' BLH designs. For something a little different, the Bruce V1.1 BVR double horn should work rather nicely...
Blu-Tak? It's a removable, re-usable product usually used for, say, attaching posters or notes to the wall. |
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| Ken L |
| quote: | Originally posted by fergs1
4. damp chassis(masses of blutack)
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I used a product available from HVAC supply houses.
Might be cheaper, easier.
Product name
Sealastic -
sealing compound - stays soft permanently - used primarily for sealing refrigeration and airconditioning holes - to make airtight
Probably available under various names - the decades old brand in the US was Permagum -
good stuff |
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| testarossa2k |
My BR cabient now sounds great, it wouldn't be possible without your help, thank you.
Butt I would like to try my fostex in horn cabinet, I'm too curious to see how it sounds.I start reading a lot great things about.So I'm searching this forum for projects. I don't need a horn that goes down to 20hz I need a "a rich and full bass" to 40hz, where music plays |
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| Scottmoose |
Fostex FE208ESigma horn.
Bruce V1.1
Ron's Dallas II
All will thunder down to 40Hz or a bit lower. Just don't build the factory 206 horn cabinet. It could be worse, but the others are far better designs and will allow your drivers to show their full potential.
Warning: once you hear them in a decent horn, you'll never go back to reflex. |
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| ronc |
Any true horn action in the range of 40 hz is going to be HUGE!
The only way to realistically approach the problem is to depend on TL action for the lowest frequencies and blend in the horn action at a higher frequency.
With the proper application of K-horn theory you can smooth out the ripple somewhat, but at a loss in LF efficency (its all an average and somewhat of a trade off).
Proper designed horns will deliver a "fast " bass that if you havent heard will amaze you. They way outperform a BR simply due to the much greater BW and again if properly designed will require no BSC.
I perfer low Qts drivers as the speed makes for a very relistic sound reproduction and if you are going for a single driver FR system with a low Qts driver, then BLHs are the answer.
If you have a slightly higher Qts driver like the 207 or 167 then Martins or Bobs MLTL designs will perform well with a much simpler cab.
ron |
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| joval1 |
Hi all
I am following this thread very closely as I have just built a MLTL cab for my 206 as per MJK's including the standard bsc + series resistors (currently set at 3.3 ohms, I welcome any comments on this value). Sounds ok but not great so I bought a couple of decware phase plugs and plan to do the surgery on the weekend. My question is would a blh cab negate the need for phase plugs. |
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| Ken L |
| quote: | Originally posted by testarossa2k
I don't need a horn that goes down to 20hz I need a "a rich and full bass" to 40hz, where music plays |
Front horns have a lower acoustic cutoff relative to the size of the horn mouth.
My round Azurahorns are 38" in diameter.
They start cuttiing off around 120hz.
They're pretty much gone by 96 hz or so.
So I crossover to subs at that point
regards
Ken L |
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| hm |
donīt forget one of the smallest horns for
8" driver the saxophon,
http://www.hm-moreart.de/104.htm
new technic:
membran movement interlacing and horn mouth distance
with measurements, who else have it?,
free download plan, with the cheap
BG20 from Visaton indirect and a front driver
like AN8" and Fostex 206E.
look and follow the red arrow.
google translate helps. |
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| Scottmoose |
| No, get the phase plugs in them anyway. They'll take the top end down a touch, give you more midrange detail (& smoother too) and kill the hollow pole-piece resonance. |
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| steenoe |
| quote: | | Yes, I've heard the recommended 206 cabinet. Not impressed. Even less so when I decided afterward to run a few MathCad sims (I apply the same comments to the 166 BTW enclosure too. This cabinet type is not one of their best). The 208 box OTOH I heard recently at a friend's house, and came away very impressed indeed. |
Maybe a bit OT but Scott, would the 166E's also be better in the 168E Sigma recommended BLH, as the 206 are in the 208 horn's as you suggest?
Steen:) |
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| Scottmoose |
I could give you an answer, but I'd be lying. I don't know, but I'll try to have a look at some point over the next day or so. Possibly. In fact, I'd go so far as to say probably, but don't hold me to it. Although the 166 has about double the Vas of the 168, the Sigma cabinet has about 20% more volume, so I see no reason for it not to work.
I wasn't convinced about the Fostex Sigma horns for a long while -that mouth hanging in mid air bothered me. Having now heard the 208ESigma box, I can understand why it's there: there's a lot of QW action here and the power they produce in the LF is astonishing. With a low-positioned mouth it would be overpowering. I suspect the same applies to the 168 cab, to a somewhat lesser extent of course. I still reckon it's stretching a point to apply it to the 108 box though -bless it, it's not exactly a bass fiend! |
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| Scottmoose |
| Onur's is similar in concept to Bruce (pre-dates it a bit though). Good design. I think Bruce is the better looking cab though... |
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| testarossa2k |
incredible! today I was listening to my fe206e in BR cabinet and later I gone to swich off the sub but it was off:bigeyes:
I was listening to MTV dancefloorchart and joe satriani, so 2cds with good bass, that goes at least to 60/70hz. After the work I will recheck it, I hope it isn't an audio illusion in the the desert of my room:D
Anyway soon I'm going to build the horn. I read also poeple complaining about the mid/high, why? is there any small horn? first I want to try, and I don't want to spend a lot in wood |
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| testarossa2k |
ok now I decided to buil a official project by fostex, because of ease of building, I just have to do linear cut on the wood panels.
The fe206E or FE208sigma project? what has most bass?
thanks |
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| Vix |
Hi there,
While it's clear that we should avoid the FE 206E horn enclosure and just build the one intended for FE208 sigma, now the question is:
How does the Fe206E horn (in Fe208 cabinet) compares to the BIB?
Anyone heard both?
Opinion welcomed.
Thanks
Vix |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ken L
I used a product available from HVAC supply houses.
Might be cheaper, easier.
Product name
Sealastic -
sealing compound - stays soft permanently - used primarily for sealing refrigeration and airconditioning holes - to make airtight
Probably available under various names - the decades old brand in the US was Permagum -
|
Sure sounds like a variant of Duct-seal. I've been using it for close to 30 years now with good result.
dave |
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| Scottmoose |
| FE206E cabinet or the FE208ESigma enclosure? 208ESigma cab without any doubt. Flatter respose, about 15Hz more extension, looks better too. |
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| Vix |
Sorry, maybe my question was a bit unclear. So, I wanted to know:
1. 208ESigma cab, or,
2. BIB
How do they comapare against each other? I gues they both sound astonishing. In case someone had a chance to listen to them, and compare...
Sure, a BIB is easier to build, but does it have any sonical advantage over a horn, or just remains as an option for those who find that a horn is difficult to build?
thanks |
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| Scottmoose |
The BIB is also a horn actually.
Chalk and cheese; it's difficult to compare them, as they offer different things. The BIB has more extension, and allows the driver to articulate very well. However, it's tall, and needs wall / corner loading to work properly. The 208 cabinet doesn't offer as much extension (nothing else does), but has a smoother response (the BIB isn't anything like as bad as the graphs suggest, but it's not a mini-monitor either), and is smaller. Plenty of weight in the low registers to a little below 40Hz. I've heard plenty of BIBs, including a 206 based one, and the 208 in the sigma horn, so I know the character of the cabinets quite well. I like both, though the BIB will always be my favourite as I've put quite a lot of time into these boxes as you probably know. If you've got the necessary wall[s] then either will serve you well, though if you like the aesthetics of the BIB and want to know just how much LF an FR dribver can provide, then I'd go with that. If you don't have the walls, or you can't cope with a 7 ft cabinet, I'd go for the sigma. |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm building the fe208e cabinet for the 206. I just commissioned the wood cutting and I'm waiting now.
It's the baltic birch plywood, it has a great look, a little bit expensive, a lot expensive I should say. But I wanted to make a cabinet that doesn't need any paint job. Is it good for this job? please tell me it's good...
And it was the only one in 18mm tickness, the other was the MDF in 19mm. I wanted to make the fe206e cabinet but I didn't found any 22mm wood so I gone with the fe208esigma.
PS
The laboratory of the craftsman is right in front of the RCF laudspeaker factory, do you know it? |
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| Scottmoose |
BB is about the best thing you can possibly use for horns.
The 206 cabinet is poor. 208ESigma box far better. You're gaining, not loosing, by using it. |
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| MP3HiFi |
Hello,
I am also interested in the FE206F with the 208EZ enclosure.
Has anybody tested the 206FE in the recommended enclosure for the FE206 ESR?
Imho the enclosure for the FE206 ESR looks better.
Thanks for your opinion.
Martin |
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| no xo |
| Scottmoose, what is it that you don`t like about the Fostex recommended BLH for the Fe206E? I built a pair and use them for mains in a HT set up and I really like their sound. There is a sub rolling in at 80HZ so deep bass extension isn`t necessary, but they have a wonderful tonal balance and when used for 2 channel music only they have a deep and wide sound stage. I don`t have as much expirience and knowledge as you and I value your opinion, whether it`s positive or negative. So even if you knock them, it won`t detract from my enjoyment with them. Thanks, NOXO. |
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| Scottmoose |
Glad you likes yours -name of the game. Why am I not a fan? Well, I don't like the aesthetics much, though careful building obviously helps with that. There's a big suck-out from ~100 - 180Hz which I could clearly hear in the different pairs I've listened to, later supported by modelling the cabinet. On the up-side, this can be partially compensated for by reducing the chamber volume. Nor do they go as low as I personally like for horns with low Fs 8in drivers. Just my preference of course.
The 206ES-R cabinet is essentially a modified Nagaoka D-58 & is a pretty good design. The regular 206 should drop straight in it's magnet is plenty powerful enough to drive it. Might need a little chamber work though. |
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| testarossa2k |
tomorrow I'm going to get the wod:)
I want to ask a thing about the project.
The side panels numbers 28 and 29 are inside, and the 27 is outside right? at least it looks like from the "TOP DETAILS" view of the PDF
http://www.fostexinternational.com/...8ez_enclrev.pdf
Any building tip? |
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| chrisb |
A few weeks ago I cut material for a buddy's 206ESR's, and there was at least one discrepancy between the sheet layout drawings and the summarized parts list.
With 34 individual pieces per cabinet, many of which are close in size, it can get very confusing when parts don't match both the drawing and the list. |
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| testarossa2k |
I almost finished building:)
I have a question:
If I put the blinding post on the rear panel like in the fostex project perhaps I will not be able to detach the driver anymore without cutting the cable because I soldered the cable to the speaker and putting the hand on the rear wall through the pipe maybe possible but without a tool to unscrew.
So I can put them on the top, it isn't nice to see but it works |
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| Scottmoose |
| Oh yes, that's no problem. Alternatively, put them on the side. Again, not the most attractive, but it works. |
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| testarossa2k |
TA
TA TA
TA TA TAAAAAAAAN :)
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| testarossa2k |
it sound FANTASTIC!
All problems gone away!
Full mids
Now the voices are full and deep how they should be....
POWERFULL bass!
When I say powerfull I mean it goes deep into your stomac. And fast, now I know what do you mean.... deep and fast
No hard highs, it seems to me that they more quiet. But on this point i have to investigate more...
Relatively light enclosure, mdf is a lot heavier, but man this wood is so strong that to remove just 3 4mm of wood with the lapping machine with roughest paper it can take 20min of work.
WOOOOW
And just with one spaker I don't miss anything.....
PS
I'm using my amp in mono setting (there's a switch on rear panel) but if I have a normal stereo how I get all channel with one speaker? |
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| Scottmoose |
| Told you they work. ;) These cabinets give some of the best bass I've heard from a long-path horn. |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm surprised that they go that low, I tried with a test cd (made using goldwave) and I can hear until 30hz signal with more volume than with sub.
It's simply amazing!:bigeyes:
PS
In the project I see they put some layer of sound absorbing material behind the driver and on the bottom of the horn, why? |
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| Scottmoose |
| Damps out higher harmonic resonances, and any stray HF that's leaked through & been scattered by the sharp edges (yup, that's what they're for). |
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| ronc |
Its got my vote. Dosent look any larger than the Dallas and looks like an easier build.
ron |
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| testarossa2k |
I can't believe my ears....
I said I could here until 30hz, no that's wrong it's 20hz!
Because yesterday when I did the test it was at low volume but today at middle/high volume I can hear 20hz signal, it's low but it can be heard:eek:
Listening to classical music and feel the stomac vibrating it's incredible... |
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| steenoe |
| quote: | | no that's wrong it's 20hz! |
Wow, thats impressive. How is the topend sounding?
Steen:) |
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| jsb |
+1
Do they sound less aggressive in the upper end??
20hz??? What are you listening?? :)
| quote: | Originally posted by steenoe
Wow, thats impressive. How is the topend sounding?
Steen:) |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm listening to a audio test cd with step of 5hz for each track response from 20hz to 150hz plus one track going in 5minute from 0hz to 38hz.
But the human ears can't feel just 20-20000hz range? anyway my amplifier has a subsonic filter at 20hz.
The tops are a lot better, they don't hurt me anymore also at middle/high volume, and when I mean high I say the the concrete wall of my room are starting to vibrate.But I mind you that I'm listening just to one channel with one speaker so maybe the highs are on the other channel.... |
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| Scottmoose |
| Build another; stereo pair = better dynamics, cleaner bass & less distortion. That'll get the room shaking. |
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| BHD |
| Testarossa2K, please please please keep us informed as to your impressions when you build your second cabinet... I'd love to hear what you think of the speakers when you can hear both channels! |
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| testarossa2k |
Hopefully before 25 dec I will have the second horn....
Now I put the sound aborbing material as shown in fostex project, the sound is now improved there's no more confusion in middle frequencies. Especially after the insertion of a thin layer behind the driver, the ones on the bottom of the horn didn't produced any changes to my ears.
Now I have a question about costruction
1)What's the effect on sound if there's a hole or fissure, small or big, in the horn's pipe?
2)Can I seal it with silicone?
3)My friend want to build it with chipboard? is it good?
PS
My friend has now 2 big 82 liters floorstanding with 2 FE206E drivers for each one in bass reflex:D |
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| Scottmoose |
Yes, you can seal the hole with sillicone, s long as it's not too large. Holes in horns are bad news as it messes up the entire loading. Seal it quick!
Your friend has 206s in 82 litre cabinets. From your descripion, methinks that sounds ominously like a Common Sense Audio box. They have their own way of doing things, which is fair enough -to each their own and all that, but it's not a method I would ever recommend myself. Tell your friend to do himself a favourand get two of them into a pair of horns. It's what these drivers are best at. Either the 208 cabinet, or Ron's Dallas II. Possibly Bruce V1.1 if he's got the room, though the chamber would need some damping. Chipboard is probably a better bet than MDF for horns as it stores less energy. Ply is preferable though.
If he's got a couple of drivers left over, stick them into Martin King's MLTL design, available at www.quarter-wave.com Both will blow those big reflex boxes into the weeds. Especially if the current enclosures have both drivers mounted on the front panel (bad idea). |
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| testarossa2k |
| quote: | | Holes in horns are bad news as it messes up the entire loading. Seal it quick! |
Oh fortunately it's not my problem, it's my friend's problem because he has some panels of chipboard he wants tu cut on his own and so fissure and holes are to be expected:rolleyes:
But let's say that there's a hole, does it mean the bass is less for ignorant man like me?
| quote: | | From your descripion, methinks that sounds ominously like a Common Sense Audio box. |
No, absolutly not. He took 4 fe206e and he did it with winisd, simply not? And the frequency response si quite linear in the voices frequency but with absoluty no bass.
The 2 remaining driver will go as front channel in my firned's HT system with my old 45L BR box, and not for free:devilr: |
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| Scottmoose |
| It means less bass and big response glitches as you're introducing a Helmholtz resonator (basically, a reflex vent) into the horn. Not good. |
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| Pit Hinder |
| Sorry,I had to edit - I wrote bull*******. |
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| testarossa2k |
my friend finished the horns with chipboard. We didn't have enough wood so no double panel on the side on the rear and on the bottom:D
They're very heavy, more than I thought, that chipboard quality is very good, also no cutted angles.
They sound is fantastic but it's quite different from mine.
They have total control over the bass, while mine has an abundant dose of bass someway softer( more rounded don't know how to say) that stays in the air but wich I like because I found it very musical.
The highs are as they were before in BR boxes, at high volume they hurt a little bit. My friend said he putted a lot of absorbing material behind the driver so the voices were less chesty than mine, but anyway perfect.
At the end they're perfect, a very big change, he don't need more the the sub (he got an enourmous sub of 170liters with 15inch driver wich sound very good).
At the and he's happy like a hippy!:D
Amplifier: Harman Kardon HK670, also the cd player is HK
Room: very small, and with some metallic eco.
My amplifier: DB technologies MT530, Onkyo cd player. |
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| Scottmoose |
Always nice to hear when people get something they really like. Great stuff! Can't say I'm surprised he doesn't feel the need for a sub either.
Probably not to your taste, but worth trying. Little trick I learned from NickG, 211 valve-amp maestro and all-round good bloke.
Stage 1) The Metallica Double CD Live album, recorded with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. It's pretty cheap. Grab a copy.
Stage 2) Select track one of the second disk
Stage 3) Crank the volume up
Stage 4) Take a very deep breath.
Stage 5) Press 'play'
Stage 6) Cackle insanely.
This is a full-range recording, with titanic power and scale in the LF, mostly from the orchestra, and very few speakers, let alone FR speakers, can pull it off. These can. The floor will be shaking. And I don't mean 'tremble'. I mean shake. You can feel the huge quantity of air being moved against your chest -quite an eerie feeling at home, from FR drivers.
Chipboard (particle board) isn't as bad as all that -it releases energy quite quickly, unlike MDF, so it's not a bad choice at all for horns. Cheap too. |
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| Veber Chagas |
To Scottmoose:I've been refered to you by Martin King on the horn subject. After following your comments on the several forums on the subject I decided to buid the 208ESigma cabinet for the 206E speaker as per your opinion. I understand that this combination brings out of the system a very precise reproduction of orchestral pieces ( classics, Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, ..) and jazz. Right?
My question concerns the sound absorbents used since down here in Brazil they are probably unavailable. Which ones to be used behind the speakers (glued to it?) and in the recommended locations inside the cabinet? Thanks a lot. |
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| Scottmoose |
It should do a very good job indeed. There are several of these cabinets with the 206 in existance now, and the builders are all extremely satisfied.
Re damping materials, there are a few things you could try. Lightweight carpet, or a good carpet underlay are usually pretty effective. Chances are you won't need much in the chamber -just enough to prevent reflections back through the cone. And a light layer around the base and up the front wall will help reduce some harmonic ripple. They don't have a great deal, and this appears to flatten it out nicely.
You can damp the rear of the magnet and basket with something like ductseal, or caulking. Worth doing. Dave (Planet10) is the best person to ask for advise on this side of things as he's been tweaking drivers for the past 20 years or so.
Regards
Scott |
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| Veber Chagas |
| Scottmoose: I want to thank you again for your assurance on this matter of horns for Fostex speakers. I will proceed as suggested and will post as soon as I have news (by the way I appreciated the construction photos posted by testarossa2k- some more construction details will be of good value). Seasons Greetings. |
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| testarossa2k |
I'm starting to build the second:D I hope that the cold temperature under the zero don't delay the work.
And if it snow let it snow.... Do you know this song?:D |
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| tta60 |
Hello, hm-moreart,
I'd like so much to try building a pair of horn-sat speakers, using FE 206E's. Could you please give me the dimensions of the horn-sat?
Lots of thanks in advance!
Best regards, |
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| testarossa2k |
finished building the second:) I have to seal a hole, it's better the silicone or the spray polyurethane foam to seal it?
I have already listen some music and the pleasure now is double... |
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| Scottmoose |
;) All good things come to those who wait. Big projects like this take a while, but I reckon it's worth it.
FWIW, I'd use silicone, or some form of caulking. |
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| MP3HiFi |
Hi testarossa2k,
could you post any photos? |
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| Pit Hinder |
Yes Testarossa - show us Forza Italia!
Pit |
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| testarossa2k |
here's the pic of the second born
the first
| quote: | | show us Forza Italia |
During the world champ I had the flag out of the house but during the night some drunken people stole it . But that it's ok...
I have to say that positioning 2 speaker it's harder than with one, because the fostex are very direct in the highs.The volume now is a higher also... |
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| Scottmoose |
| Nice problem to have though isn't it? :D |
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| testarossa2k |
oh yeah
The back of the horn is strange, with those 2 channels, is there any reason to be there?
I want to try speaker in the living room, the distance between horns will be 3,40 meters, it will be good? |
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| Scottmoose |
With toe-in, I imagine it should be fine. These things throw a big soundstage.
Which channels in the back? You mean externally? I thing That's Fostex's way of trying to brace the rear panel while trying to cram everything for a single box onto 3 sheets of ply. The simple alternative is to just double the thing and have done with it, but you need a 4th sheet of material for that. |
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| Pit Hinder |
Don't squander good ply by doing it the Fostex way. Glue the braces edge on instead of flat - I had to do this to a pair of Schmacks horns (*******' primadonnas, but worth the hassle) and it worked like Lloyd's A1.
Pit |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pit Hinder
Glue the braces edge on instead of flat |
Edge on slats will be more effective by a long ways than flat, and better than another layer of thickness -- as long as you get the spacing right -- remeber that irrational numbers are your friend.
dave |
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| Veber Chagas |
| If you compare both FE206 and FE208ESigma enclosure designs both bracing types were used although in the 206's several flats can also be seen put between the slats. From engineering standpoint slats are more effective. I understand that the channels are there to be used as a guide for wiring(needed ?). |
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| ronc |
From engineering standpoint slats are more effective
Very true. Just look at the dynamic, moving load and its apparent.
You have a displacement moving along an enclosed volume. The slats have a lever effect at any given point which distributes the load or displacement over a given length/area.
Ribs in any loaded structure is an inexpensive method of increasing the ultimate load capacity of the structure without adding a great deal of mass.
ron |
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| maxdd_nj |
| I've been listening to my FE207Es in 47L BR cabinets and dig the sound but I'm ready for something better. Will the FE207Es sound just as good in the FE208 horn? |
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| Scottmoose |
| Well, they'll work. And they'll probably sound better than in the BR box. Certainly quite different: bigger and much more powerful in the LF. There are some alternatives too. |
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| wixy |
Hey testarossa2k, I am beginning to construct the same speaker design as you used today, also using the Fostex FE206E.
Do you have any tips or advice for the construction? |
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| Pit Hinder |
Wixy,
as far as I recall you lately got very strict firearms law in Oz...good for you, because your neighbours will HATE you!
and @ Testarossa...I bet you have got used to sitting in the sweet spot by now; a 20cm driver beams more than a 10cm, that's life. But be honest, amico - a 20cm can KICK!
:devilr: Pit |
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| testarossa2k |
yeah
1) First check the all the pieces.
2)Put on the table the side panel, and begin to construct from the top the side panel. From the top to the bottom, because it's easier, and you don't have to check a lot of "piece to piece distance" that you would if you start from the bottom.
3)Check for hole and fissures, remember that very small fissure(max 1mm) can be filled up with the same glue that you use to attach wood( in my case the BINDAN-P glue wich is a mixture of vinilic glue+synthetic resin.Wich it's very fast(30min) if the temperature is good and you don't use liters of glue, but lets you move the pieces without force when it isn't dry. Also the normal vinilic do the job of filling.)
3)If you can use vices. But pay attention because if you don't put well the vice you'll end up with all wrong. Because if you don't put vices well they push the pieces in wrong position.It isn't necessary, but it will help you also to seal fessure because pushing the pieces.I used the vices just to attach the sidepanel to cover the horn and for the top and the bottom and the rear and fron panel.
4) Very important check the angle between pieces with the square.
5)Remember to think before to remove wood in excess, because once you removed it there's no turning back.
6)you don't need 28# and the 29# panel. Just use 4 of 27# panel.
This is what I remember. |
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| Pit Hinder |
Testarossa,
so not everything in Italy is la dolce vita...building horns is a bit of a job! I think that short how-to-do post is something everyone should print out and hang on the wall. |
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| wixy |
| Thanks heaps for that Testarossa2k! Should make the ordeal that is coming easier. |
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| wixy |
| Also, I have one question, did you use any screws or something else to join the pieces together, or did you just glue everything together? |
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| testarossa2k |
no screw.
Using screw on plywood it's also not raccomended because it has a lot of wood nodes and you risk to crack it if you put the screw on the side of the panel( it's just 18mm tickness).
If you want really to use screw u need thin's ones and before screwing you need to pierce and then you can screw slowly...(well you should always do like this if you want really straight screw and you don't have hurry...)
I don't want to use screw in this case because:
1)They don't look good
2)They aren't necessary, because this horn is full of reinforcement
3) Vinilic glue it's very strong. Just make sure you use good one, and non toxic....
The only pro point is that if you want to build fast, you could screw a lot of pieces( is impossible screwing everything because you must be a wizard). But the pieces must be perfect to do this. |
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| Pit Hinder |
Testarossa,
big problem here...we know which glue is best, but we don't know the brand names in other countries - let's start a thread about it:
in Germany: Pattex Montagekleber
Pit |
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| Pit Hinder |
OK, so our friends in Italy are cared for - thanks!
:wave2: Pit |
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