| jackinnj |
| I do this for a sanity check about once in 18 months -- purchase a copy of Stereophile -- interconnects at $965/meter not expensive? <p>If you buy more than a pair you have spent enough to get a Grand Tier Metropolitan Opera subscription, or you could fly to NY to Vienna, get a first class hotel in Salzburg and hear the Festspiele, throw in Leipzig also. |
|
|
| paulb |
As a wise man once said,
"People are generally stupid." |
|
|
| Philo |
| I think the appropriate term is "There's a sucker born every minute"! |
|
|
| BrianGT |
It might also apply that some people just have too much money, and spend the remander of their lifetime figuring out ways to spend it on exotic items, such as snake oil capacitors and gold plated gold cables.
--
Brian |
|
|
| jcarr |
I agree that $965/meter is a good deal of money. But then, speaking as a manufacturer, I've paid single bills of around $20,000 for internal wiring.
The raw material costs for some of the high-purity stuff is bloody painful.
regards, jonathan carr
PS. I've also paid similar amounts for single shipments of resistors and of capacitors. Although in all cases I felt that the benefits were worth the costs, maybe I'm just another sucker. |
|
|
| Havoc |
| As a manufacturer, did you get only 25m of cable in order to pay 20000? You need to put it into perspective, put a figure on how many you got for the money. |
|
|
| jackinnj |
| I was fortunate not to have to take inorganic chemistry since I had so many physics credits, but the explanation of the crystal boundary problem just seemed a stretch in the review of the cable. You get this kind of pseudo-science all the time in from the nut end of the political spectrum (moreso in Europe than the US, probably not!). <p>As a former editor it too appears that they let a young writer loose with a word-processor and there are various macro's that they can engage to describe "top end air" etc. The language of high end audio magazines is hackneyed to say the least. |
|
|
| kelticwizard |
How can we know where to draw the line?
Audio magazine once had a couple of articles by an electrical engineer which purported to prove that 16 gauge zip cord was as good as any speaker cable out there for runs of 15 feet or so. He measured inductance, capacitance, etc.
I am not a believer in expensive cables or interconnects. But even I can hear the difference between 12 gauge and 16 gauge speaker wire. That is what I generally use-12 gauge wire for the connection to the amp.
Frankly, I don't know what anyone else is hearing. Generic 12 gauge works for me.
Yet, even simple generic 12 gauge might not be explainable. What is the gauge of the wire in the woofer's voice coil-something like 36? How many feet are there in that voice coil? A lot more than 15 feet. You would think that even 22 gauge zip cord could be used for the connection to the amp, but people would definitely detect that difference.
True, audio is a collection of mechanical and electrical devices, and all characterisitics come down to the behavior of those devices. Still, I don't think it is unreasonable to consider the possibility that not all effects are completely known yet.
I read somewhere that scientists studying Stonehenge or some such ancient place discovered some astronomical effect that they were not aware of, but the ancients were. With no audio video systems to speak of, I guess those people back then had lots and lots of time to stare at the nightime sky, LOL. It just goes to show that even well studied scientific effects are not a closed book.
My problem is that some of these people out to "debunk" some of these "myths" seem to be really radical and go against things that I think are reasonably well established. On the other hand, some of these effects that expensive solutions are supposed to cure seem a little strained.
How can we know where to draw the line? |
|
|
| jackinnj |
people quickly lose sight of the fact that it's music, music first and music foremost.
there is a difference in cables, I know that some of the stuff I built 30 years ago with oxidized RCA connectors did sound dreadful.
... but as a thread going a few months ago (with respect to "mains interconnects") there are some really simple things one can do -- like grounding -- to help out. Perhaps pop the circuit breaker off, remove the cover to the wall receptacle and tighten up the connections. As a ham radio operator I am reminded of a nasty case of RFI which was traceable to a loose lightbulb and intermittent connection in a hallway. Then too, why stop at the wall receptacle, why not cable all the way back to the pole, and why stop there --- why not convince the utility district to go all the way back to the substation. Perhaps it makes a difference whether your system is connected to a coal generating facility as compared to a natural gas gennie, <em> reduction ad absurdum </em> |
|
|
| Joel |
| Stereophile is very appealing to the dentist who fancies himself a music-lover. However it has nothing to do with the science of audio. |
|
|
| jcarr |
Havoc:
>As a manufacturer, did you get only 25m of cable in order to pay 20000? You need to put it into perspective, put a figure on how many you got for the money.<
That is one valid point, but another is that for custom-order conductors (and other raw materials), there is a minimum order requirement that must be met no matter what. In other words, you have to come up with the 20 grand whether you use only 1m or everything that you bought.
Back in the 80s, Hitachi Cables introduced LC-OFC, and we purchased reels of it, had it processed into magnet wire, and used it in our cartridges. Perhaps a year or so later, Nippon Mining introduced 6-N copper, and we shifted our cartridges to that. A by-product of the transition was that we were left with lots of 0.04mm LC-OFC magnet wire that we were no longer interested in using.
I don't remember what we did with the LC-OFC. Probably threw it away.
regards, jonathan carr |
|
|
| Coulomb |
| I often wonder what good all this speaker cable trickery does once you take a look at the leads on a HEXFET. |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by Coulomb
I often wonder what good all this speaker cable trickery does once you take a look at the leads on a HEXFET. |
Well of course you can always enclose the HEXFET in a
60 dB feedback loop.
;) |
|
|
| jackinnj |
you should have hired a graphics design firm, booked lunch with stereophile editors at Le Cirque and then fashioned the cables into esoteric interconnecting cables.
Too bad this was in the days before EBay. You can sell anything, and I mean anything on EBay -- as long as you honestly describe it.
coincidentally, my dentist actually knows what he's doing, I think he has a complete machine shop in his basement.
Jack |
|
|
| R. McAnally |
you guys are forgetting the little inline fuse with a tiny strand of wire on the AC side!
since the length of the wire has just as much importance as the diameter, very short hexfet leads still have a very low resistance. plus feedback always helps -- why dont we include the speaker lead in a nested feedback loop? |
|
|
| Philo |
| Ok, I am a Stereophile subscriber. hold on, hold on, It was initially given to me as a gift but I have since renewed it. My interest in the magazine in in the scientific side. Yes, there is some. I read Matt Fremers reviews because he likes to run some fairly accurate subjective tests on the equipment. Not always applicable ones, but interesting anyway. But the primary reason I read through the magazine is to see the different designs. I like to look at many of the exotic case designs (useless ones and all) and the layouts of the opened cases. To me this is information worth considering in my own projects. I make all my own interconnects because I enjoy it and don't pay any real attention to the hype around that scene. Sometimes bad information is as useful as much as good information. |
|
|
| vuki |
I'm dentist and Stereophile subscriber :razz: , and I fancy myself a music-lover :cheerful: . Stereophile is not technical magazine, but you can find good measurements of the tested products and (sometimes) even get a good description of a sound- although I never take listening tests very serious in any magazine. Nowdays, when audio magazines are slowly fading away, Stereophile offers quite interesting audio tests and columns, and subscription is cheap!
Joel: not all dentists are alike: I was editor in chief of only croatian audio magazine "Hi-Fi" for 5 years, have ca. 1500 CD's (mostly jazz), currently listening music on Tannoy 15" HPD's, DIY 2-way Accutons, DIY 300B SE amp, Gainclone, xformer attenuator passive pre, DIY TDA1541s1 based nonoversampling dac etc. :wave: |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| It is still my opinion that Stereophile is the best audio magazine. I dropped my subscription four years ago, but still whenever I get a copy, I read it back to back. If only they printed more pictures, like those european magazines.;) |
|
|
| pinkmouse |
| What, errr, European magazines would those be then, Peter?:D |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| Last time I was passing through Frankfurt airport, I picked some Stereoplay, Stereo and image hifi. Although they were in German all the nice pics made for my not understanding the language.;) |
|
|
| till |
in my opinion stereo, stereoplay etc. are what i think is called in this board totally ****. Yes image hifi has nice pictures, and double the price of the others for half amount of paper on same amount of information: asymptotic against zero.
All this is consumer oriented, targeted on the non skilled - and even-if-not-much-but--too-much-money crowd.
The only good thing i ever found in one of these was a stereo goody CD with music from chesky. |
|
|
| Peter Daniel |
| I don't care if it's **** or not, at least they show how the equipment looks inside, and that's my main interest. Something that Stereophile never does (they used to do it in the old days, yet in a very limited amount). Some reviews in Sterophile, especially by J. Atknson, M. Fremer and J. Scull, are not only very informative but as well entertaining, especially that Scull guy.;) |
|
|
| pinkmouse |
The only mag in Britain I regularly buy is Hi Fi World, they have a good respect for old gear, i.e. not everything new is better than what went before it. They also run columns on use of computers in hi fi, and what bits are best, along with occasional DIY supplements.
However my Favorite hi fi mag was out in the 80's, Stereo, the Magazine. They had a very tongue in cheek approach, and used to run articles like Seducers Hi FI, in which they rated the best bits of kit on practicality and audiophillia for a night in with a "friend", so you could load it up with tunes, and not have to get up from the sofa all night!;) |
|
|
| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by pinkmouse
They also run columns on use of computers in hi fi, and what bits are best, ... |
Interesting, so which bits are best for audio, the zeroes or
the ones???
Sorry, couldn't resist:) :) |
|
|
| pinkmouse |
Christer,:D :D
Seriously though, I think the problems of most hi-fi mags are caused by the encroaching of big business into the publishing market, and because of this, the enthusiasts who used to run them are being pushed out by management types who purely look at the bottom line. This results in two types of magazines, those that are afraid to criticise kit from their big advertisers, for fear of losing revenue, and those that attempt to maximise sales by leaping on the slightest new fashion and hammering it to death, tabloid newspaper style.
There is also the problem of losing market share to the new Home Theatre publications. Let's face it, to the mass market, stereo reproduction is just "so last week", and you can't really boast about it to your friends in the pub on Friday night... |
|
|
| gnomus |
| The only thing those rags are good for is to see what's out there. I also like to see how things are made and designed. You can get some good ideas on a rare occasion. Sometimes, they have good interviews with designers. In terms of equipment reveiws. As they say in Brooklyn NY "for get about it." They are very biased. Because, a bad review will keep them from getting equipment and advertising. You will see some minor critical remarks. After all nothing is perfect. But, you will not see something highly critical or really trashed. It would scare off manufacturers. The only time you see something very critical is if it is about to be discontinued or updated by a manufacturer. The music reviews can be good though. There is little danger in trashing recorded music in terms of sound and performance. It does not cost much to buy recorded music. And you do not have to worry about not getting any music as you can just go out and buy it. So, here if something is bad they tend to say it. Still some music reviewers have tin ears. You need to ge to know music reviewers and sort out who knows there stuff. |
|
|
| SY |
Bad writing. Just bad. It's hard to say who's the worst writer they have, but the moron who keeps talking about his French wife is the leading contender. Logorrhea and close to zero understanding of what he's writing about. Clearly aimed at the top 2% of the gullible.
I miss Gordon Holt; I think he was cracked on a lot of stuff, but his writing was clear, crisp, and entertaining. |
|
|
| seangoesbonk |
| quote: | Originally posted by kelticwizard
How can we know where to draw the line? |
I draw the line WAY below $965 per metre!:D |
|
|
| GRollins |
Holt now writes for <i>The Absolute Sound</i>.
***Something midway between philosophy and a rant***
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Cables make a difference above and beyond the basic L-C-R involved. Yes, the prices charged are scandalous by my standards, but like everything there's a cycle involved. Prices will become more reasonable as the overall economy slows down. So what else is new? If you don't like the prices they ask, buy the cables used (yes, there's a thriving market for used cables) or don't buy them at all. Quit yer *****in'. I choose not to pay the price (I'm still using an ancient pair of MIT cables and some Mark Levinson HF-10 or whatever they called it--both '80s vintage cables), but that's my choice; partly dictated by my personal microeconomics, partly by my Scottish heritage. Others with more discretionary income are free to use it as they wish. Take a course in economics. Learn a little about economic cycles.
You might as well rant about the price charged for a Rolls Royce. Is it <i>really</i> that much better than a Chevy? Of course not! But it's not linear and anyone expecting a linear relationship is...well...let's just say they're...uh, silly. There's always been a diminishing returns curve for every segment of the market. So what?
People who gripe about the price of high end cables might as well insult Nelson to his face; have you bothered to check the MSRP for his product line? He's in that same segment of the market. It's the very fact that the high end exists that allows him to sell amps, which allows him the freedom to explore new circuit topologies, which allows him the freedom to choose to leave a trail of bread crumbs for the rest of us to follow.
Yikes! Talk about ungrateful!
You ought to be on your knees thanking whatever deities might exist that there is such a thing as high end audio. Elseways, Nelson and some of his peers would have to do real work for a living (<i>ahem</i>) and there would be much less for us to play with.
Do not lose sight of the fact that we, in a very real sense, are parasites living on the hide of the high end audio beast.
If the beast dies, we'll starve shortly thereafter.
<i>Bon appetit!</i>
Grey
P.S.: First, let me say that I attend every live performance I can. (Nicolas Smith has whipped the SC Philharmonic into a far more cohesive unit than his predecessor--they're a pleasure to listen to now). But allow me then to ask--per dollar spent--which gives you more hours of music: A dollar spent on cable, or a dollar spent on a concert ticket?
The cable I bought back in the '80s is still with me. I could not tally the hours of music that have gone through that wire. If I'd spent the same sum on tickets, I'd be running on memories only.
The proper measure of a dollar spent on entertainment is how much pleasure it gives you in the long run. Do not be so quick to judge others in how they spend their money. |
|
|
| ststone |
I wished we could have kept "listener"
I think Art (Dudley) and his team where on our side of the universe.
I guess they went down when the cat and the bunny died.
It was the 2600 of HiFi |
|
|
| kelticwizard |
| Good to see you back, Grey. You were missed. |
|
|
| ststone |
I would like to thank GROLLINS and CARPENTER for their work.
Got the boards ("eac" version of the Aleph X, yeah eat your hart out other people).
I am proud to have them, thank you guys!!!
I really have to sit down and .... |
|
|
| Brett |
I pick up the aisional of $phile when I go to a big city, becau it's not seavailable locally, and unlike people on the American continent, we don't get the sweetheart subscription deals. Single issues are usually $A20/$US11. For me it's a bit of fun reading, but the product reveiws aren't why I buy, becauce I'm not going to but an ARC, BAT or CJ when I can build better for a tiny fraction of retail here. Like philo says, there is sometimes a wealth of info in the pictures, review text and even the ads that I can use in my own projects, in terms of topologies and aesthetics for example.
Over the years, I've also read many interesting <a href="http://www.stereophile.com/showcategory.cgi?category=Think%20Pieces">think pieces</a> and <a href="http://www.stereophile.com/showcategory.cgi?category=Features">features</a> in the magazine on a number of subjects. Most of these fortunately make it into the archives on the Sphile website where I can read them for free. Whether they are perfectly accurate and university peer-reviewable articles or not, isn't the point. Some of them are spot-on, and they've often stimulated interest into other things for me.
I also like the fact that Sphile measure all the gear they review. John Atkinson has <a href="http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?732">written</a> that he does it to try to find some correlation between what is heard and measured, as well as removing any faulty components. It's also interesting to see how many components fail to meet their advertised spec. Irrespective of the sonic consequences or relevance of any given measurement, if a manufacturer says their amp puts out 50W, and it doesn't in a real world test, it tells you a lot about them doesn't it? JA is also quite blunt in his assessment of the (poor) performance of many componenets. IMO Kal Rubinson is the best of the reviewers there; I've read many of his posts on forums and email lists that we are both members of, across a wide range of subjects, and he has shown himself to be an honest and concise person to me. Tellig is a ____head, and Fremer's only value is in showcasing analogue products I may not have heard about elsewhere.
Some of the music articles, esp those by John Atkinson where he describes the recording session I also find enjoyable reading. The music reviews and small features on artist usually unknown to me have sometimes yeilded some pearls. Music reviews are always hit-and-miss. I find <a href="http://www.allmusic.com/">All Music Guide</a> to be better on average.
For a delivered cost of $US10 a year for US customers, I think *****ing about it is a big wank. Whether you agree with what they say or not, I get more than a soda's worth of entertainment out of an issue.
I use to read Sphile and TAS 20 years ago, when they were more interesting than today. The only mag I subscribe to is the UK hifi+, because I like it better overall than any of the others. But it's just a bit of light entertainment.
The printed magazines are dying slowly due to the speed of internet communication. Sphile will probably be the last US one. Most of the online ezines are worth about the paper they're printed on. Srajan Ebaen's <a href="http://www.6moons.com/6moons_2.html">6 moons</a> might be a contender for a great mag as it grows, due to the integrity of man himself.
For Peter Daniel: J Scull got fired a few months back due to downsizing in the parent company Primedia. He now works for Monster Cable. |
|
|
| ststone |
I cant live without the "SKULL" he was real...
And now they hired ART ... ??? let's invade a third world country, or Holland (I do speak the language) |
|
|
| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by till
in my opinion stereo, stereoplay etc. are what i think is called in this board totally ****. Yes image hifi has nice pictures, and double the price of the others for half amount of paper on same amount of information: asymptotic against zero.
All this is consumer oriented, targeted on the non skilled - and even-if-not-much-but--too-much-money crowd.
The only good thing i ever found in one of these was a stereo goody CD with music from chesky. |
I picked up a copy of image hifi over the summer when I was in germany, along with a couple more audio magazines there. I thought it the best one there, because all I could do for all of the audio magazines was to read the pictures. The pictures are great quality.
The only two countries that I was able to find nice audio magazines was the Czech. Republic and Germany.
--
Brian |
|
|
| Brett |
| the Japanese magazines Stereo Sound and MJ (Musen to Jiken), if I could get them and afford them. |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | | Originally posted by Brett Srajan Ebaen's <a href="http://www.6moons.com/6moons_2.html">6 moons</a> might be a contender for a great mag as it grows, due to the integrity of man himself. |
I couldn't speak to integrity, but it is an interesting and
entertaining site. |
|
|
| Nelson Pass |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brett
the Japanese magazines Stereo Sound and MJ (Musen to Jiken), if I could get them and afford them. |
I do have a subscription to both, and they are worth the
trouble, particularly MJ which is 90% DIY and is like AudioXpress
on steroids.
:cool: |
|
|
| ststone |
| Nelson, you advertised in this source, is it a miss to you ?? |
|
|
| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nelson Pass
I couldn't speak to integrity, but it is an interesting and
entertaining site. |
Hi Nelson,
perhaps I should clarify, that I meant I really feel he writes with an honesty of his own experience that I seldom find elsewhere, as well as a real enthusiasm for what he does. Opinion formed by reading quite a bit of his work over time.
I especially liked the extended interview (<a href="http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/jimsmith/jimsmith.html">Part 1</a> <a href="http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/jimsmith/jimsmith_4.html">Part 2</a>)with Jim Smith of Avantegarde USA about his view of high end audio.
Regards |
|
|
| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by Brett
the Japanese magazines Stereo Sound and MJ (Musen to Jiken), if I could get them and afford them. |
Do you have some idea of how much these mags cost as at the moment I can only see them at a library an hour away, though that does mean I can access back issues. But still it would be nice to own a copy or two.
ray. |
|
|
| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by rfbrw
Do you have some idea of how much these mags cost as at the moment I can only see them at a library an hour away, though that does mean I can access back issues. But still it would be nice to own a copy or two.
ray. |
Ray,
I lost the links I had in my files when my HDD died a while back. IIRC they were over $US20 an issue, and postage was over half that again. That was at single year subscription rates for SS. I think you also had to pay via bank transfer which added another $US15 to the deal for me. Anyway it was a big chunk of change esp at an exchange rate of 0.55.
Hopefully someone will know the URLs (J Carr?) for the subscription departments, as a look now on Google didn't turn them up, and also correct me if my memory on the numbers was wrong.
Cheers |
|
|
| Neutron Bob |
This afternoon, I had a bit of free time to relax with a Newcastle Brown Ale while reading diyAudio .
Then, all of a sudden it hit me!
Emblazoned across the bottle, in the glass, it reads:
The One and Only
Pretty cool, huh? Cheers!
Bob :D |
|
|
| Neutron Bob |
A few years back, I had the nasty habit of drawing precipitous amounts of juice from the house mains. This was the end result of using pairs of Threshold amplifiers that had the added benefit of keeping my room comfortable with the blissful heat dissipation of lots of output devices .
Well, with three wee beasties today (I have three little girls), I had to part with those wonderful heaters...little girls seem to consume as much, or even more energy than the least efficient of amplifiers...and they even dissipate as much heat as a fine amplifier. I have noted how their idle current (the girls) must indeed rise when they fall asleep listening to music with Daddy: they get downright HOT once this happens. My wife agrees with my observations too.
Well, back to wires we must go. I rewired the room with a dual 25 Ampere service for the amplifiers, after everyone dubbed me "young Doctor Frankenstein" for my line voltage transients noticed around the house as I powered up various combinations.
Nelson, your designs are indeed gentler on the mains than many other commercial amplifiers, I recall. Much better energy storage as well (more capacitance in the power supply), as transients caused significantly less hardship on the room lighting. My hot-rodded Martron caused more than a few enlarged eyeballs back then, as the woofers shook, and the lights dipped in unison...
Proper power is essential, be it heavy power cords, or as in my case, the house wiring itself, if one is feeding out plenty of power to the speakers. I don't have the means to afford the most extreme of power cables, but a hefty run of 10-3 jacketed industrial cord does look cool....:cool: |
|
|
| Philo |
| Does anyone have a website or source for Musen to Jiken? Nelson, is there one listed on one of the issues? |
|
|
|
