| peranders |
| quote: | | aluminum oxide, the best dielectric on earth |
Is this true?
| quote: | true cathode on the surface of an aluminum oxide dielectric layer and an external cathode. A separator, therefore, is
some of the signal information is lost, and distortion is radiated due to the slowness of ions and non-linearity. |
I think we agreed in some other thread that capacitor distortion was rather small compared to other things especially in tube amps.
The current is moving with the speed of light (almost) and the charge carriers are moving in mm's/ sec or so (=slow!) by nature.
I find that many facts are pure "tjurbajs" (=b**********) when it comes to scientific value.
Is Black Gate caps humbug?
I'd prefer if we start with a technical discussion first and then the audiophilic.
http://www.blackgate.jp/ezu1.htm#10 |
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| Christer |
| Don't we have enough threads open on capacitors? ;) |
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| dhaen |
| Maybe we need a "capacitor forum":D |
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| peranders |
| Yes, caps are very "audiophilic" but Black Gate has cought my interest and I would like to know a little bit more, scientific, because I have a feeling of that they aren't (documented) special at all. |
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| Philo |
| Whether Black Gates are the best, I have really no idea. I do know they sound better than what is put in most consumer electronics these days. I have gone through and replaced many of the caps in my off-the-shelf equipment and the sound is much improved. The improvement is good enough for me for now. I will in the future try other manufacturers in other pieces of equipment, maybe try and get some NOS Cerafines. But to me that is part of the fun of DIY. |
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| dhaen |
OK, there are papers on Black Gate caps. I read them once, but have forgotten enough to need to revise.
Can someone please post a link so we can have a common source of info. Then we can argue out the points.;) |
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| janneman |
Per, I dunno, I looked at the site you put in your message.
A quick glance: "traditional" cap shown with "separator", Black Gate shown with exactly the same structure, but separator now called "fine carbon particle " or something like that. For all I know, ALL electrolytics could have "fine grain particles". A "traditional" marketing ploy I would say.
Further: they describe with great elegance the "forming" of the cap, this is a process that is inherent to the construction of an electrolytic cap. However, the impression is given that the forming process is unique to BG and therefore leads to great quality. I hesitate to call it misleading because their legal budget surely exceeds mine.
I think I have more interesting things to do than linger on that site, which is so full of text and empty of content. But please, prove me wrong if I am.
Jan Didden |
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| ALW |
I'm equally sceptical about the BG claims - 'real' technical data is painfully lacking.
Having said that though, a recent bargain purchase of some large value Cerafine's has surprised me greatly, they use ceramic particles in the electrloyte, and they sound, and measure, better than standard electrolytics .
To my knowledge, carbon is not used in any other capacitor.
I also have some glowingly ecstatic reports from some corespondants I trust who were equally sceptical, but having tried just about everything else have decided to try some Black Gates.
Such is the glowing report they write, I've invested in some myself to see if they really are that good.
I agree it all looks and reads like snake oil, although there's enough tempters in the specs to whet the appetite (look at the impedance trace for a Super-E configuration).
Maybe that's just a way to sell twice as many caps, but I'm less sure know than I was. They are expensive, but not unreasonably so compared to OS-CON's, and I suspect pricing is a bit aspirational, like all consumer HiFi ;)
Will report back later...
Andy.
P.S. Can you email me your adress once again, I've lost it and still have a parcel for you :) |
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| SY |
Carbon has been used in capacitors for decades. Nothing new. See, for example, those ultra-high value (1 Farad) double layer caps, normally used for power backup.
I looked at that site, too. I want those 5 minutes of my life back. |
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| jam |
I was skeptical about Black Gates at first till I tried them. They need a few hours to break in but I think you will be pleased with the results. Too many of us rather take someone's idea or findings to task without first trying them.
Hi-Fi World (for what it is worth) put several capacitors to the test and found that the Black Gates put several highly regarded film caps and an expensive oil filled one to shame.
Jam |
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| dhaen |
I don't believe in "break-in".
How does it work? |
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| jam |
Usually a capacitor usually takes some time to 'form' or reach its best operating characteristics especially electrolytics. You will find that they improve over a period of time.
Jam |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by SY
Carbon has been used in capacitors for decades. Nothing new. See, for example, those ultra-high value (1 Farad) double layer caps, normally used for power backup. |
Yes, but these caps are something else. They are very "chemical" almost a battery. Some of them (all of them?) are very unsuitable for anything else than just backup voltage. Didn't Hiraga use them in his monster RIAA(?) amp? :att'n: |
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| Ryder |
Hi all:
| quote: | | The current is moving with the speed of light (almost) and the charge carriers are moving in mm's/ sec or so (=slow!) by nature. |
Peranders
Im a lil’ new at this. I think of current=electrons=charge carriers. The coloumb is the unit of “charge” and is measured by 6.28x10^18 electrons passing a point. I guess this is why I equate current and charge carriers and electrons.
Current drift I think of as slow. Althought the electrons are moving faster. How fast?
The electric field, what ever that is, (photons?) moves close to the speed of light. This seems to be the “charge” and is very mysterious if you ask me. The field passes the signal.
Straighten me out.
Does this stuff matter in DIYaudio? Peranders mentioned it in the context of the sonics of capacitors. Can we draw conclusions about how/if caps effect sound from issues above?
Second Question: Only because I was just reading a thread on another forum. A consensus was that wire can be directional with ac current because, while the current is moving in opposite directions, the Power is being delivered in one direction only. Personally, I am so confused as to how to visualize or think of “Power” that it hurts my head. If you just say IxE that makes sense. But power is something separate too, no? It’s voltage, it’s current, but it moves at the speed of light. I tend to think of Power as a field that is not wire dependant.
Oh Sh**.
Cheers
Craig Ryder |
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| jean-paul |
Apart from the fact that this thread isn't exactly off the beaten track it also is a repetition of things said before. The title of the thread is provocative as well. Leave the "Black Gate caps" away and an interesting discussion could take place.
I have to get something off my chest: it really is annoying that people are very negative about capacitors ( or other subjects ) that they haven't even tried. It reminds me of a dutch saying which maybe is suitable in english too: the best sailors are ashore.
Some of us build things and try things although they maybe are sceptic about it before they try it. Nevertheless they try to keep an open view on matters and are able to decide for themselves what sounds OK or not. Eventually this can be backed up by measurements if really necessary.
Some others are educated in what is a hobby for us. What I discovered now is that it is often them that are negative beforehand and wait for the others to try things out. IMO this should be the other way around !
Buy some of the damn overpriced BG's, solder them and measure and listen. Than make up your mind and opinion and tell us your results instead of mocking all the time. I couldn't care less what's inside it. Could be Coca Cola for dieelectricum. The marketing has similarities anyhow. If it has an idling time of 30 days, whatever. Most important is : is it good for YOUR ears or not ? |
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| jean-paul |
| Sorry, I am fine again now. |
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| Ryder |
Jean Paul
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic"
Techies do not like magic. It makes them feel unprofessional.(hehehe)
| quote: | | Some others are educated in what is a hobby for us. What I discovered now is that it is often them that are negative beforehand and wait for the others to try things out. IMO this should be the other way around ! Jean Paul |
Likewise, mature technologies turn into mental and technical orthodoxies or straightjackets. The educated (not necessarily clever or smarter) feel the full weight and lose all flexibility. History of science shows a long struggle with this.
Of course it is also true that many uneducated (hobbyists) fall prey to shams of all sorts. (I hear Joel calling)
This creates a certain tension between a heavily laden orthodoxy and pure quackery.
All you can do is try to enjoy it. It's not changin soon.
I'm Dutch myself although my famly has been in the states for three generations.
Cheers
Craig Ryder |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | This creates a certain tension between a heavily laden orthodoxy and pure quackery. |
OK, Craig but must one not try quackery to discover it is quackery or not ? I once was slightly educated in this stuff but found out there is more than only the wisdom of books. Problem is that it is very time-consuming and I can imagine that some don't want to put their valuable time in trying things. IMO one can not have an opinion if so.
Have to admit I thought the same about the BG's. Overpriced, no docs, hard to find and no real technical explanation apart from some lousy written japanese-english papers. After experiments with some types BG I am convinced of their quality. Something I didn't expect for sure. But it still is fun to find out that a cheap capacitor from brand X sounds nice ( and is cheap too ). For instance BCComponents makes nice quality. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | I'm Dutch myself although my family has been in the states for three generations. |
How can you be Dutch if your family is in the USA for three generations ? ( not meant negative ! ).
Do you still speak the language ?
Jean-Paul |
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| Ryder |
| quote: | How can you be Dutch if your family is in the USA for three generations ? ( not meant negative ! ).
Do you still speak the language ? |
No, I do not speak the language. I grew up in Holland, Michigan. The "Big Event" here is "Tulip Time." I imagine it's kind of a fast food/McDonald's version of Dutch culture. The undergradute school I went too was know as the "Flying Dutchmen." All for naught as you point out. I'm another stinking American.(hehehe)
I do get your sense of frustration with this hobby though.
Cheers,
Craig Ryder |
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| Ryder |
How can you be Dutch going with the name "Jean Paul" and using that picture?
Looks like a cross between Sartre and Il Duce.
hehehehehe
Hope you don't mind.
Cheers
Craig Ryder |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | I'm another stinking American.(hehehe) |
How can a would-be dutchman not recognise the only real Rock&Roll artist Holland has known ?
The guy was called Herman Brood and I am sure if you ask some dutch relatives in the USA about him they will have a certain opinion about him. Herman was a walking example of hard drug abuse and being healthy at the same time. That is till he jumped off the roof of the Hilton last year.:bawling:
That does not imply that I am in favor of drugs. On the contrary.
Just liked his rebellious character for some reason :D
| quote: | | The "Big Event" here is "Tulip Time." |
I imagine seeing you walking around there on wooden shoes, eating cheese hehehe.
| quote: | | How can you be Dutch going with the name "Jean Paul" and using that picture? |
Not all of us are called Jan !
Cheers,
Jean-Paul
BTW the topic seems lost... |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
The guy was called Herman Brood ... |
And I have been wondering all the time why you use a picture
of Ghadaffi. Are you sure it is really this guy Herman Brood? :) |
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| jean-paul |
Well, I borrowed it from Ststone and immediately recognised Herman Brood ( as confirmed by Ststone ).
But now you say he looks like Muammar Ghadaffi I see the similarities. Now I understand the hostile reactions I get :D
Never forget the documentary where Ghadaffi was driving around the desert in his Volkswagen Beetle convertible on the way to his tent. LOL
Like his stubborness though despite his criminal activities. The rest of the world only nodds yes to everything the USA dictates.
He has calmed down I think. Last time I saw his name in the papers he "stole" the microphone on a symposium and wanted to convince everyone around that Africa was for the Blacks and Arabs only in the presence of invited foreigners. A black president of some country was very fast removing the microphone outof his hand :) |
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| MRehorst |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
OK, Craig but must one not try quackery to discover it is quackery or not ? I once was slightly educated in this stuff but found out there is more than only the wisdom of books. Problem is that it is very time-consuming and I can imagine that some don't want to put their valuable time in trying things. IMO one can not have an opinion if so. |
If I told you that trepanation was a great way to improve the sound of your stereo, would think it necessary drill a hole in your head? If I told you that pulling the trigger of a loaded gun with the barrel in your mouth makes your stereo sound better would you think it must be tried to know? Of course not. Clearly, there are some things which our thoughtful minds can deduce WITHOUT actually trying them.
So the question is one of degree. Some things can and some can't be known without actually trying them. If one thinks about the degree of an effect, even without trying the thing, one may be able to reach a conclusion about the likely outcome vs. the time/trouble/cost of trying the thing. That process rules out 99.99% of the quackery.
Most people have brains. I consider myself among that group. I try to use mine as much as possible, and there is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that that is a bad thing.
MR |
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| SY |
Trepanation? Cool!!!! I'm gonna try that tonight. It ought to be very mind-opening.
I'll take the claims of gizmo peddlers a bit more seriously if they actually present some sort of valid listening test (not merely uninformed anecdote) in the absence of verifiable technical data. I'm reasonably well educated (ok, MORE than reasonably well-educated) in the electrical properties of materials, and 99.999% (if I might borrow your number) of what I read from companies like Black Gate is gibberish. And on the basis of wild claims and pseudotechnical spiels, I'm supposed to pony up money to try this stuff? |
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| haldor |
| quote: | Originally posted by MRehorst
If I told you that trepanation was a great way to improve the sound of your stereo, would think it necessary drill a hole in your head? If I told you that pulling the trigger of a loaded gun with the barrel in your mouth makes your stereo sound better would you think it must be tried to know? |
Looks like your avatar has done one or the other of these at some point in time. Make any difference on the sound? :D
Phil |
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| MRehorst |
It's a 3k year old skull that was trepanned. Since there weren't any stereo systems then, the poor guy was probably talked into it by a bow and arrow salesman- "try this, it will make your arrows fly straighter!"
It seems the descendants of the trepanned guy show up in these forums from time to time. They buy their wood pucks and power cords from the descendants of the bow and arrow salesman. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I chose this avatar as a symbol of my philosophy of keeping an open mind.
I have another one- a skull drill that looks remarkably like an RCA plug! I was going to attach it but I seem to have misplaced the file. My memory hasn't been the same since I opened my mind...
MR |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | If I told you that trepanation was a great way to improve the sound of your stereo, would think it necessary drill a hole in your head? If I told you that pulling the trigger of a loaded gun with the barrel in your mouth makes your stereo sound better would you think it must be tried to know? Of course not. Clearly, there are some things which our thoughtful minds can deduce WITHOUT actually trying them. |
This is the process that I didn't mention in my reply because this process is supposed te be normal. However some of us deduce most unknown things to nothing.This has the practical effect that nothing is to be tried anymore. |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
I couldn't care less what's inside it. Could be Coca Cola for dieelectricum. |
Jean-Paul, my angle to this was tha BG states facts which in same cases aren't true and some other that aren't special at all, in fact quite normal.
I care what's inside. I don't want to buy cheap products to a high price.
Have anyone tested Lelon caps? They are in fact better than BG! |
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| peranders |
| Here is a picture of this amazing cap. |
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| janneman |
Jean-Paul wrote:
"I have to get something off my chest: it really is annoying that people are very negative about capacitors ( or other subjects ) that they haven't even tried. It reminds me of a dutch saying which maybe is suitable in english too: the best sailors are ashore.
Some of us build things and try things although they maybe are sceptic about it before they try it. Nevertheless they try to keep an open view on matters and are able to decide for themselves what sounds OK or not. Eventually this can be backed up by measurements if really necessary.
Some others are educated in what is a hobby for us. What I discovered now is that it is often them that are negative beforehand and wait for the others to try things out. IMO this should be the other way around !"
JP, for some reason I feel the need to reply to this. Especially since I know that Dutch expression;)
Just to set the record straight: I'm not professionally involved in audio, for me it is just a hobby as for most of you. I may be a bit more fanatic than most, but that's just me.
You know as well as I do that there are a zillion people out there all claiming they have discovered the holy grail of audio, and if we would give them just a couple of 100 (or 1000) $$ it can be yours too!
Now I have two choices:
Choice 1: I rush out, buy it, try it. I most probably will like it (Ever heard your neighbour say: this new car I bought really is ****, I should not have bought it, I made a mistake? Thought so).
I end up with a lot of assorted stuff, without having time and money to do the things that advance my understanding or that are plain fun, like designing circuitry.
Choice 2: I look critically to the advertisements and info to decide if I feel that they really have something that sets them apart from the crowd. If so, I buy it, try it, most probably like it. If I feel that what they say is a lot of humbug, I say so. I really can't see why you or anybody else should object to that. There are so many unsubstantiated glowing reports from people that my small critical drop in the ocean doesn't make a difference anyway (although, being human, I would hope it would).
These BG people have all the power from internet to make clear what it is that sets them apart. If they really have something, it can be said in just a few lines. They fail miserably. I'm sure they would be trying very hard. My conclusion can only be: there really isn't anything that sets them apart.
And don't get me started about curves etc. I remember a manufacturer years ago that showed two curves on a scope of noise from his amp and a competitor, his being less than half. I showed that they were exactly the same curves, but in one case the scope sensitivity was set 1 click lower. Such is the integrity of some manufacturers, although I have no reason to doubt BG's integrity at this point.
Finally, you may have noted (I hope) that I never state something and ask you to believe it because I say so. I try to state the reasons why I have a certain opinion. I'd rather have someone think about what I say and tell me I'm wrong, than just believe me and pass up the chance to teach me something. In the BG case, I stated why I thought there was nothing special on them, and pointed out that some of it even could be seen as misleading. No body told me I was wrong. Did I spoil your party? Possibly. Could that be why you reacted the way you did?
But maybe I'm too serious. Maybe you guys just want to have fun. Sorry.
Jan Didden |
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| sercoe |
Hi all
The Black Gates construction is actually very different. Carbon is a conductor (semiconductor at worst) but all electrolytics use a dielectric (insulator) in the gap between the plates.
Elna Cerafines use a ceramic powder but who cares. As far as i can tell they are no longer manufactured so go out and buy Elna Duorex or Silmic (silk paper for dielectric, silky sound? LOL) then we can discuss something current.
Have used BG's for a while. They take forever to charge up (measured this over a period of days then got really bored). Do AB comparisons if you must but mostly listen to the music. Much happier now.
Cheers
Sergio |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
Here is a picture of this amazing cap. |
Just kidding! This cap is from Taiwan and is average in every sense but the price (low). I have used it in my latest amps and works very well in decoupling ( in parallel with polyester).
If I had the opportunity I had chosen RIFA because they are swedish (and I like them!), but they are hard to get in small quantities. |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by sercoe
Hi all
The Black Gates construction is actually very different. Carbon is a conductor (semiconductor at worst) but all electrolytics use a dielectric (insulator) in the gap between the plates. |
Not quite! The dielectric is infact the thin oxide at the aluminium foil. The negative electrode IS the electrolytic!
The positive plate is the foil. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | They are in fact better than BG! |
You do it again Per-Anders ! What type of "Lelon" ( never heard of BTW ) did you compare with what type BG ? You are a specialist in comparing apples with pears. After reading your posts I got the impression that you never really used them. How is it possible that you have compared them then ?
| quote: | | Finally, you may have noted (I hope) that I never state something and ask you to believe it because I say so. I try to state the reasons why I have a certain opinion. I'd rather have someone think about what I say and tell me I'm wrong, than just believe me and pass up the chance to teach me something. In the BG case, I stated why I thought there was nothing special on them, and pointed out that some of it even could be seen as misleading. No body told me I was wrong. Did I spoil your party? Possibly. Could that be why you reacted the way you did? |
Jan,you did not get my point AND you're too serious as you said yourself. There is always Choice No 3 you know.
Misleading is the advertising by distributors of BG. The company itself seems shy to me. ( this all is of utter unimportance BTW if they have a good product ). The result of all their "research", advertisement, marketing etc. is a product what counts and I dare to say that some of their caps are better than some of the finest film caps I know. And maybe if more of us used them the price would go down too ;)
Of course you're free to think that there is nothing special about them. A real opinion only is possible after trying. To me it seems like saying you hate apple pie by knowing the ingredients while you have never even tasted it. My party isn't spoilt. Seems more that your party is spoilt somehow. Anyhow, have a nice X-mas !
Regards,
Jean-Paul |
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| janneman |
JP,
I think we both are missing each others points. Let's leave it at that.
But I'll try to be less serious;)
Zalig Kerstfeest en een Gelukkig Nieuwjaar!
Jan Didden |
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| jean-paul |
We leave it at that. It is hard enough to conversate in an electronic way ( and in a strange language as well ) and misinterpretation is something that sneeks in easily.
It is not the time of the year to be so sour, excuse me for that.
Your expertise is beyond doubt if you might think I questioned that.
I wish the same to you, Jan and to everybody else merry christmas and a happy new year !
Jean-Paul |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
You do it again Per-Anders ! What type of "Lelon" ( never heard of BTW ) did you compare with what type BG ? You are a specialist in comparing apples with pears. After reading your posts I got the impression that you never really used them. How is it possible that you have compared them then ? |
J-P, I was joking! I hadn't either heard of Lelon until recently. They are huge...in the far east. Many companies are huge there and unknown here. And you are right, I have never seen or used BG. My start question was about the facts about BG not the opinions.
When it comes to electrical Lelon is average. When used earlier Rubicon which had substantially higher performance and lifetime (but long delivery times and higher price). We had lot's of problems with ERO Roederstein which died quite fast in warm environments.
Long time ago I went a sell course.
EFI was bonked into my head.
E=Properties, facts or claimed facts, WHY is this product good
F=Advantage compared to other products - for you!
I=The Meaning of all this for you |
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| jean-paul |
OK, Per-Anders but the C of cost has a big influence too.;)
I always wonder why it is so difficult to obtain good caps while Sony and other brands use them. Good Elna's, Rubycon's, Panasonic's and United Chemicon's are hard to find and I can't imagine they are not imported bigscale to Europe. A lot of Japanese gear is manefactured with those beauties in Europe. Now they are only sold for too high prices in special audioshops and a strange mystique hangs around them. Even the better European brands are hard to find. Very frustrating to find only Yageo or Punsumi in the shops. Even more frustrating is that electrolytics are the worst kind component in audio by design and using the better ones is a pre for good results in audio. Searching good quality sometimes feels like being an alcoholic in Sweden. You want it badly but you can't find it and IF you find it it's beyond reach because of the price.
Plus the fact that obtaining electronic parts becomes harder by the day for normal individuals. The industry serves only the industry. |
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| Elso Kwak |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
OK, Per-Anders but the C of cost has a big influence too.;)
I always wonder why it is so difficult to obtain good caps while Sony and other brands use them. Good Elna's, Rubycon's, Panasonic's and United Chemicon's are hard to find and I can't imagine they are not imported bigscale to Europe. |
Hi Jean-Paul,
It is not that hard to find these parts.
In our country www.degroef.nl has Blackgates.
They ship by postal order.
Michael Percy has a large selection of all kinds of boutique parts:
Solen, Hofland, Blackgate, Nichicon etc. etc.
www.percyaudio.com
Michael Percy ships worldwide and you can pay with pay-pal.
In the USA there are numerous firms specialised in boutique parts, like Partsconnection, Welbournelabs etc. etc.
I once ordered some parts from Michael and all went very smoothly.
See also the sponsorpage of the AudioAsylum for firms and links to there homepages:
http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html
;) |
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| Werner |
Maplin www.maplin.co.uk are presently
liquidating their stocks of Rubycon ZL and
ZA at silly prices.
You have to press the "order this item" button
(or whatever it is) to see the new discount
prices. |
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| jean-paul |
Hi Elso, I checked prices at www.degroef.nl and my statement holds true:
| quote: | | Now they are only sold for too high prices in special audioshops and a strange mystique hangs around them. |
The tip from Werner to look at Maplin's is an interesting one. Very cheap and good specs too. But man can not live by specs alone.
Has anyone experience with these types ( ZA and ZL ) ? They are extremely low ESR types ( 105 C for switching PSU's ) which most of the time does not work out in audio ( low ESR is OK, but extremely low mostly isn't ). I sure want to buy some and test them but some info on them is always good. How do they compare to BG ? |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Has anyone experience with these types ( ZA and ZL ) ? They are extremely low ESR types ( 105 C for switching PSU's ) which most of the time does not work out in audio ( low ESR is OK, but extremely low mostly isn't ). I sure want to buy some and test them but some info on them is always good. How do they compare to BG ? |
ESR is a bad thing when it comes to current capability and lifetime. Low ESR is good and these types have extra good high frequency properties and normallly it's a good thing when a cap is a cap and not an inductor. |
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| jean-paul |
Per-Anders, please reread the reply I gave cause I sure wasn't saying a capacitor should behave like an inductor. The point is extremely low ESR can give troubles one doesn't expect. As I found out myself using OScon's on the wrong places.
And see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...SR&pagenumber=8
Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators. You don't seem to believe me so please read it ;) |
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| ALW |
I love you ;)
I use ZA's by the bucket-load in my regulators, and think they are marvellous.
I've not tried them in signal-path apps, but as PSU decoupling there's little better.
Those Maplin prices make me cry - I've been paying a fortune (relatively) for them.
Better get in quick guys, I feel a BIG order coming on...
Andy. |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Per-Anders, please reread the reply I gave cause I sure wasn't saying a capacitor should behave like an inductor. The point is extremely low ESR can give troubles one doesn't expect. As I found out myself using OScon's on the wrong places.
And see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...SR&pagenumber=8
Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators. You don't seem to believe me so please read it ;) |
I'm aware that you just can't pick up a component I hope for the best. When it's possible you must make measurents also. Good test signal is square wave. You can also get non-wanted phenomina when you parallel connect caps of different kinds. Linear Tech had a good application note about this. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Thanks J-P.
I had not read the whole thread but Jan confirms what I sometimes hint at in the tubes section as wel.
| quote: | | Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators. |
I see audiophiles spending a small fortune on MKP and other fancy caps just to filter ripple in the PSU.
When I then tell them that these caps are too good for that they then look at you as if you're retarded.
Their reasoning is of course that the best cap (for coupling) surely is good enough for anything else?
It just ain't so.
Better spend your money on a good regulator IMO.
Cheers,;) |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Their reasoning is of course that the best cap (for coupling) surely is good enough for anything else?
It just ain't so.
Better spend your money on a good regulator IMO. |
It doesn't hurt if you have knowledge about the electrical properties before the audiophilic takes over.
I'm thinking of when people choose digital circuits or ultra fast opamps. Some of these parts aren't suitable for anything else than pcb's with groundplane, SMD etc. |
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| peranders |
The thread subject was really hot. 1000 views in a short time. Calling Black Gate for humbug was very effective in order to get attention.
Edit: 1015 views when I was finished writing!
Edit 2: 1029 and the counter is running..... |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Calling Black Gate for humbug was very effective in order to get attention. |
May I suggest a marketing career at BG for you?:cool:
Cheers,;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| That's what I found on BG. It is from Herb Reichert (Audio Note) and his article on 300B amp which appeared in Sound Practices. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Peter,
That article rings a bell.
You won't happen to have an issue #/year for that?
I just want to reread it again entirely.
See...I do ask for something....occasionally.;)
Ta, |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
May I suggest a marketing career at BG for you?:cool: |
Why not? I have gone the sell course, what more do I need? :D |
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| Elso Kwak |
Hi Jean-Paul,
Quote:
<B><I>Now they are only sold for too high prices in special audioshops and a strange mystique hangs around them.</B></I>
I absolutely agree with you and I very seldom buy these caps in boutique shops.
I only have experience with Audyn PLUS caps and quite recently abandoned these as I did not like the slightly metallic sound quality.
Yes I know these should be <B><I>"burned in"</B></I> but after several weeks I lost my patience: <B>OUT</B> with these things, they never come in! PERIOD.:redhot: |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi Peter,
That article rings a bell.
You won't happen to have an issue #/year for that?
I just want to reread it again entirely.
|
I downloaded it in 11/17/96 from either Angela or Sound Practices site. I was trying to find it recently, but couldn't. I still have a print out. I just posted more here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...99511#post99511
If there is a greater demand I could post the whole article. When I was reading it I almost got hooked on 300B amp and wanted to build it. Yet those parts were so expensive that i delayed the project.;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
Thanks Peter.
I just found the issue:
Sound Practices Vol.2:4 Issue 8 Winter 94/95 pages 24-26.
Cheers,;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Is it available on line as well? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
No,that's just one of my own issues.
Unfortunately I don't have scanner here.
But if no one else volunteers I'll find some way to get it done if interest builds up.
Cheers, ;) |
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| fdegrove |
Peter,
Here you have the online version:
FLESH AND BLOOD
Cheers,;) |
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| ALW |
Just ordered loads of these (>750) from Maplin, so some values will be a bit lower stock now ;)
I've been paying £1.18 for 100uF, 35V, just paid £0.07 :eek:
Should keep me going for a few years...
Will try some as coupling caps and report back.
Andy. |
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| Brett |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi,
No,that's just one of my own issues.
Unfortunately I don't have scanner here.
But if no one else volunteers I'll find some way to get it done if interest builds up.
Cheers, ;) |
You can get all 17 issues on a CD for $US30
http://www.southernelectricaudio.com/sp.html#cd
Alternatively, Frank you could send all your issues to me and I'll scan them. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | Alternatively, Frank you could send all your issues to me and I'll scan them. |
Yeah,right!:D
Cheers,;) |
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| planet10 |
It is interesting the views on BGs in this thread. Before spending much time here i did a lot of obsorbing off the JoeList (some real serious accumulated tube info there). I came away from there with the notion that for big caps where you would often use an electrolytic, a black gate was your best choice. Now this is what i took out as the collected opion of the list, and not my personal experience -- i haven't gotten far enuff along to try them out, i'm still getting my big caps from recycled computer monitors.
dave |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
I posted this in the tube section already...
| quote: | | What I'm interested in though is getting a bit of feedback from users.(listeners) |
As opposed to all the hype I see on the net.
If it is a hoax then we'd be better off exposing it...If not well than it would really be interseting to find out more about these caps.
When I hear claim such as better the filmcaps I surely go :scratch:
Anyone?;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
I used the Black Gates in my recent Gainclone. 2 X 1000u/50V in PS and 4.7u NX as input coupling cap. I'm not gonna brag about it much, but this little amp is probably better than my Aleph 5. It's hard to say how much it is because of the caps I used, but with this little capacitance requirement, I didn't think twice about using anything else.
I also didn't compare with other electrolytics, because I made the design specifically for that cap size.;)
This little amp sounds truly amazing. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Peter,
And you are going to remove the plastic wrap on them caps too,right?;)
Ciao,:cool:
Nice alu job BTW. |
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| Peter Daniel |
| You see I was thinking about it. But I can only make 3/4" holes with my tools in this white material. With a plastic jacket the caps fit perfectly tight in the holes. when I take off the jackets, they would be loose and I would have to use teflon tape to hold them anyway, so I left the jacket. I also think that the white housing (teflon like material) provides nice damping for the caps. With this much space my only choice was electrolytic for coupling cap, but after trying it, I can't really complain. It has everything that I really need in the sound.;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
If looks could kill,he?
Nice,very nice work.
I'm a sucker for good looks,I admit it...just have to love a nice piece of legwork...
WOW!!!
Neat job Peter!;) |
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| pinkmouse |
Once again Peter, your talents amaze me, what a cool Gainclone!
Is that a Wima cap I see in there? If so what type? I am looking for recomendations, as I have a friend who I ski with every year, his company have just taken on a distributorship for Wima, and I am working out the best ones to blag.;) |
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| jean-paul |
If I had the skills to build an amp like your Gainclone Peter ...
Looks superb ! Did you do all the metal work yourself ?
Is it the inverted version with 0.22 Ohm resistor at the output ?
Can't really see it on the picture.
| quote: | | but this little amp is probably better than my Aleph 5 |
Amazing ! Maybe Nelson will make a Passcard too in the near future. ;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
This is the inverted version of the amp. Originally I had Wima 0.1u cap paralleled with 220k resistor from positive input to ground, but eventually I connected the positive input directly to ground. Sounds much better. I'm not using 0.22 ohm resistor at the output either. I have 100K Alps pot at the input, with both decks in parallel for better tracking. Those pots are dented, so using two separate is much easier. I was planning not to use coupling cap, it appears though that even if your DAC has a servo and 0V DC output, the amp produces about 500mV of DC offset at the output, so cap is necessary. Because of space limitation I used 4.7 BG NX for coupling and I cannot complain about the sound. The big resistors are Rikken and for feedback I used Holco (Rikken was too big). My PS BG caps are connected directly to the pins on the chip, everything is very tight, but still I couldn't achieve 35mm signal path length.;)
As usually the metal work is mine. This one was very easy, because I used ready made extrusions, just cut them and finshed the ends. The case needs brushing and anodizing still.
This is one fine sounding amp. It doesn't posses none of the artificial sound of other SS designs, yet it has resolution and surprisingly deep base. But the main characteristic is the intimacy with each it passes on the music and the liveliness of it.;) |
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| Peter Daniel |
| As to legwork. I placed 3 spikes under this unit (threaded holess) and it improves the sonics substantially. Everything gets into focus. So far I'm using only one 400VA toroid but plan to build a separate supply for ea. channel with 4 X 200 VA split bobbin trafos. This amp is also perfect for home theater setup (if your speakers are efficient enough). I used it with 91 dB speakers and was never lacking in power. The trafo is 24-0-24. I lowered the voltage to 18-0-18 using Variac and it seems like the amp is a bit smoother with this lower voltage. It also takes about 3 weeks to break it in compeletely (if you can trust those guys at Stereophile;) ). |
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| jean-paul |
| Per-Anders, do you know PEG 124 series from Rifa ? I bought some and specs are incredible ( lifetime 27500 hours at 105 degrees C ). Wonder if you tried them in audio. |
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| Christer |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Per-Anders, do you know PEG 124 series from Rifa ? I bought some and specs are incredible ( lifetime 27500 hours at 105 degrees C ). Wonder if you tried them in audio. |
You didn't ask me but... :)
I haven't tried them myself yet, but plan to do so. however, a
friend of mine likes them, although that was for decoupling.
He tried OS-CONs both for decoupling opamps and for paralleling
the big lytics in the preamp PSU, but he didn't like the sound.
I can't remember right now how he described the sound, but
he wasn't satisfied anyway. Then he tried these Evox-Rifa
PEG124 and claimed a great improvement. He doesn't live
nearby nowadays, so I haven't had a chance to listen to his
equpment myself since he did these experiments.
Anyway, I tend to like them before even having tried them just
because of the lifetime. I think that is parameter worth looking
into, although it is seldom mentioned in discussions here. The
big Rifa cans for PSUs also boost very long lifetimes and are
considered very good by some audiophiles. |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
Per-Anders, do you know PEG 124 series from Rifa ? I bought some and specs are incredible ( lifetime 27500 hours at 105 degrees C ). Wonder if you tried them in audio. |
I'm not sure what type we use at work. We have a design with a PUT (programmable unijunction transistor, what is that??? you wonder) and this design demands very low leakage caps and RIFA is one of the few which really works.
RIFA caps are rahter expensive but they are also top quality, documented!, (not like BG) and can be seen in exclusive both industrial and audio electronics.
The disadvantage is that RIFA caps are rather large. |
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| Carl Ekblom |
I have used the PEG124 quite a lot in tube amplifiers. I have used them in power supply and as cathode decoupling caps. They are quite OK.
A OS-Con or Rubycon ZL or ZA will do better as cathode decoupling. They are much more transparent where the PEG124 will soften the sound and hide defects.
In power supply the PEG 124 is beaten by a good polypropylene cap as SCR/solen or MCap.
So, I think you can find better caps but it is easy to find caps that have more negative effect on the sound.
I have no experience of the BG-caps. Audio Note of UK like them a lot.
Carl |
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| peranders |
| My experience with RIFA caps is only in industrial applications and they never let you down. PEH169 is something, so much fluid inside that you actually can hear the fluid when the capacitor is shaken! |
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| jean-paul |
| Thank you all for the reactions. I know now they can be used in audio and I will try them. |
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| zeno |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
As usually the metal work is mine. This one was very easy, because I used ready made extrusions, just cut them and finshed the ends. The case needs brushing and anodizing still.
|
Ready made? I suppose the front and the rear are custom made?
If not, who is the supplier of these fine cases?
BTW incedebly nice stuff you make. Tima and time again!
Marc |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I mean the extrusions. The front and back are 2 x 1/2" bar and the body is 2 x 4" square tubing. All you have to do is cut to the size. If you make nice fit of the inside brackets, you don't even have to use screws to hold everything together.;) |
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| mrfeedback |
Peter, thought about doing the same thing in copper ?.
A layer of copper (or silver) between the chip and heatsink will make a significant difference ime.
Adding other materials like titanium will make a further difference.
Eric. |
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| Bobken |
Hi,
I have only just come across this post, but have been interested to read the various different opinions which have been expressed.
If I may make some comments of my own, I would suggest that for anyone who is seriously interested in using the very best 'sounding' (i.e. the least damaging to the original signal) electrolytic caps available, they obtain some of these obscenely- priced components, and 'listen' to them for themselves.
If they do, they will no doubt reach the same conclusion as Jean-Paul and Peter Daniel (to name but two members, who have done this test), that Black Gates (especially the non-polarised caps) are the finest electrolytics currently available.
Some of my own experiences have been stated in the other current threads on BGs on the Forum, so there is no point in reiterating them here, and it is of considerable interest to me that everyone in these threads who says that he has *actually tried these caps*, has had positive experiences with them.
Not one single person in all three threads appears to have said that they have 'listened' to BGs and found that they didn't like them, nor that Rifas, Cerafines, Panasonics, Oscons, or whatever, 'sound' better!
I absolutely detest the price and the ridiculous burning in period, but as I have said, elsewhere, I would hate it even more if BGs were not around!
These are (just some of!) the inconveniences one has to endure if the best sound is sought after.
Dhaen asked about seeing the BG technical details, and over 120 BG 'white papers' (some rather badly translated from Japanese, but still quite readable for anyone who will take the necessary trouble) appear under the heading "resources", on the site www.partsconnexion.com who are suppliers of BGs.
For anyone to imply that there is insufficient information about these caps on the Internet, it may be that due to negatively pre-judging the issue, they have not made much effort to find or read them.
Some of these notes are more by way of advice as to where and how each 'series' of BGs could be best used, and some are more technical and relate to measurements and comparisons etc.
In my experience, most other manufacturers don't provide even one tenth of this information about their products!
Of course, whether you believe *all* of what is said is another matter (after all, Jelmax are trying to promote them), but I would strongly suggest that it would be sensible to read them properly before reaching any further conclusions.
I am generally not much up for giving any *opinions* of my own, and I notice that there are already a multitude of uninformed armchair experts around who are happy to make up for my reticence in this respect.
But, although my experiences are limited almost exclusively to S/S audio gear (I have only ever built one valve amp), I have been listening intently to amplifiers etc., and in particular the 'sound' of individual components (both in isolation, and in finished gear) for some 35 years now.
During that time, I have reached some very definite conclusions about the sonic attributes of many components, and I regret to say that I simply don't agree with the oft expressed " capacitor distortion is small compared with the other forms....etc", provided, of course, the equipment is otherwise well-designed.
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
Perhaps it is as well that I go for quality rather than quantity, in my constructional projects, as otherwise I would be bankrupt by now!! :bawling:
Regards, |
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| dhaen |
Thank you Bob, for the resource link.
I've delved into only a couple of papers so far - not terribly technical ones. Interesting nevertheless.
I'll get back when I've read more.
Cheers, |
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| jean-paul |
Thanks Bob, the link you gave gives more info indeed. Never knew there was documentation like this available.
The info I have read were older "papers"as Jelmax calls them and were not comparable with these.
Enough stuff to read in 2003. Happy new year ! :wave: |
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| CraigBuckingham |
Quote by Bobken
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
I agree with you and other supporters.
If BG get enough volume sales then maybe the price could reduce and the question of choice between them and a cheaper electrolytic would be a non-issue. |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | | If BG get enough volume sales then maybe the price could reduce and the question of choice between them and a cheaper electrolytic would be a non-issue. |
I suspect not, like all premium products, they charge what the market will bear, and not what it actually costs to make. Just think Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lab 47, etc... |
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| jcarr |
I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy. Granted, most components have colorations, but with many standard industrial components, the colorations are simple enough to be put to good use somehow or at least dealt with in an inoffensive manner. With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely.
Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.
But I fully understand that these choices have a lot to do with personal preference, and finding colorations that are complementary to the sounds of your circuits. In the end, you must listen for yourself and make up your own mind.
regards, jonathan carr |
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| peranders |
| This has been an interesting thread that I've started. The "humbug?" in the title is hanging around the corner all the time. My strongest reaction was when I read some facts. -174 dB distortion and claiming that is true. This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. Some other scientific facts seems to be taken from thin air. I have some problems when strict facts are obviously false. I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get. |
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| jean-paul |
| quote: | | This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. |
You are right, it is humbug. I strongly advise you to never use them. It is not your religion. I'm curious what your reaction would be if one wrote this about the gear you produce.
Per-Anders audio = Religion = Humbug ?
You see what I mean ?
| quote: | | I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get. |
What needs to be proven ? You want a scientific explanation of good sound or what ?. Or do you want to know ESR facts of BG ? WHAT do you want ?
You should talk once with a tubeguy that uses PIO caps. They are not my cup of tea but listen to them... |
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| peranders |
You know, I'm against false marketing. In Europe and in Sweden particular we have a thing called "producer responsibility". You must state facts arounds your product which are "facts" otherwise you must tell the costumer that it's NOT facts. Compare with "health food".
Seriously, do you believe in -174 dB distortion? Don't think so. (= false)
BG can say whatever they want as long as they not claim the scientific thing. Some statements are a little but obscure and/or fantastic, don't you think? |
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| Bobken |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
This has been an interesting thread that I've started. The "humbug?" in the title is hanging around the corner all the time. My strongest reaction was when I read some facts. -174 dB distortion and claiming that is true. This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. Some other scientific facts seems to be taken from thin air. I have some problems when strict facts are obviously false. I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get. |
Hi peranders,
This comment is, with respect, typical of those posters who I have criticised elsewhere.
If you will kindly take the trouble to look at the reference I related earlier on, and in particular to pages 50A & 50B, you will see that the test equipment *is* described, and there is even a (rather poor) picture of it!
Like you, I also "have problems", but it is with posters who state or imply that certain information is unavailable when I have already gone to the trouble to post a source for it on the Forum, and those 'commentators' cannot be bothered to read it.
From memory, I believe there are also some more details in those white papers about the Danish CLT-1 test set up, but I will not waste the time in looking them up for someone who is too lazy to do that for himself!
Certainly I have seen some better details of this test gear somewhere, and a better photograph (for what it is worth).
As I also said before, whether one can believe *all* of Jelmax's claims or not is another matter (they are trying to promote sales-after all!) but for pity's sake, stop posting such inaccurate rubbish until you have actually read the details, and perhaps actually listened to a BG cap!
Until you have done either (or both) of these things, any further ( inaccurate and totally misleading) input along these same lines to this thread is valueless, whoever is making the comments and whoever started it!
Regards, |
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| Bobken |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarr
[B]I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.
With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely.
Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.
Hi Jonathan,
You will have seen from my posts on this topic, that I am almost in entire agreement with what you say. The one departure being over the 'strength' of BGs colourations, and, if, as you suggest, Jelmax (or whoever) have made the sound deliberately coloured, I reckon they have made a pretty good job of it!
As I said, I would avoid *all* electrolytics if possible as even the BGs are far from perfect, but they are the best I have tried, and I don't find the colouration particularly strong when tested against a straight wire.
However this pre-supposes two things (which I thought I had made clear, but maybe not), that they are the non-polar series, and that they have had adequate burn-in time.
Incidentally, Jelmax's suggested 'Super E' configuration sounds better, but nowhere near by a factor of two as is the resultant cost!
Most frustratingly, I found that (unlike any other components I have ever carefully listened to) these BGs exibit some most extraordinary characteristics during burn-in, and Jelmax's caveat over what they describe as the 'idling' process (as opposed to burn-in, which they appear to differentiate from, in using this term) is well taken by me.
During initial burn-in and for several days, they undergo a most unpleasant series of changes (which are quite consistent each time) during which time they swing from being thin to bloated etc., and I have noticed overall (but less obvious changes) for several months after installation.
The first time I experienced this, I was ready to remove them as at one point the sound was so bad that I almost believed that something more serious had gone wrong. However, luckily, it was not convenient to take them out immediately (I have a life outside of audio, although my wife and friends don't think so!) and by the time several more days had elapsed, I was pleased with what I then heard.
On another later occasion, when I had fully BG'd an older tuner of mine which had been optimised by 'listening' to all other components over a period of some two years in total, but which had not otherwise been changed for some time, I found improvements over a period of about three months or longer.
I cannot categorically state that this protracted improvement was due to further burning in of the installed BGs, but I am very familiar with the sound of this tuner, and, as I said, nothing else had been modified for at least a year before, so I believe this was the most likely cause of this further slight improvement.
After the initial two/three weeks, the tuner settled down well, and I enjoyed the added detail and smoothness etc., but (unlike with most other components) it continued to sound sweeter and clearer by a very small margin each week, for at least three months.
Needless to say, all of my equipment is left on 24/7, unless I am actually doing some work on it, and this always makes a difference, irrespective of whichever electronic components I have used, universally.
I therefore wonder if, especially with such a ridiculous burn-in time which cannot be at all helpful in the manufacturing of audio gear, your trials really did the BGs justice.
Finally, most of us DIYers don't have the advantages of ordering 'specials' like you, and so have to put up with what we can get hold of reasonably easily, of course.
However, if you have some electrolytics which are better in performance than the dreaded BGs, I would dearly like to try some of them!
Have you thought about, or would you ever consider, selling any of these 'Connoiseur' caps?
Regards, |
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| mrfeedback |
"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."
Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted :rolleyes: ), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".
Eric.
Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?. |
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| Bobken |
| quote: | Originally posted by mrfeedback
"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."
Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted :rolleyes: ), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".
Eric.
Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?. |
Eric,
Hi Eric,
Also see my posts on this, and in particular the reference to the test gear supposedly used.
I am not adding any credance to the methodology of the Jelmax tests, incidentally, nor to its apparent results.
I am simply saying that it is there for everyone to read, and I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs! :xmasman:
Regards, |
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| mrfeedback |
" I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs! "
More info please - what sonics are you observing ?.
Eric. |
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| jean-paul |
My experience with BG-NX Hi Q is that their sonics are better than MKP and the like. Only the ridiculous long idling period is tedious.
They sound neutral and add nothing negative to the sound is the best I can say about them. They have the very negative aspect of the high price. I have only one value in stock for digital ( 6,3 V ) electronics but I couldn't resist trying them as coupling cap with low DC levels and low AC levels.They had proven their value in DAC's already I want to add. In digital they were better by a vast margin than OSCON and Panasonic HFQ.
It opened my eyes and I still am hoping there will be a salespoint in the Netherlands that will sell them for "normal" prices.
Unfortunately these components are very interesting for audioshops. They don't take volume and give great revenue.
And...once you have tried them you are hooked. Despite their price you will buy them again because you simply know there is nothing really better. |
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