| bob4 |
Hey guys,
I'm soon going to buy a notebook and wanted to ask if anyone can give some hints.
1. It's gonna be a PC
2. Later on, I want to buy a decent PCMCIA recording card (the "Hammerfall DSP" by RME) in order to do some multitrack recording on that machine.
Now what should I pay attention to when choosing the notebook? What specs should the machine have? How fast should it be, how much RAM, etc....
I've heard that RAM sharing for the graphics is :skull: if you want to record audio. Are there any other dirty tricks the manufacturers use to save some money on my expense, that will lower the performance or even make more demanding tasks like what I intend to do impossible.
Suggestions please....:) |
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| peranders |
Never considered an USB or Firewire AD/DA box? With a Mac (which has FW as standard) it's an easy thing to record, but I gather that you will use a Wintel box?
I guess that a PIII is a minimum, a P4 doesn't hurt. Multi-channel recording is quite heavy task especially if you want to process the sound in realtime during recording.
My tired old Mac (500 MHz G3) can use 3 plug-ins in realtime with a stereo signal and the program Spark from TC Works. www.tcworks.de |
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| alvaius |
| I think any P4 will be more than sufficient in terms of processing power. I am actually quite amazed by the sound quality of the Audigy USB that I use for testing. I am looking forward to USB2.0 external devices for sound recording. |
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| bob4 |
Thanx for the replies so far,
per-anders, I probably won't do any processing when recording.
About the USB/ FW AD/DA box: how much do they cost, how well do they perform? The PCMCIA card I'm going to buy later on is state-of-the-art, but of course big$, costs about 1000 EUR (including a breakout box), but until I have saved up some money I might be interested in cheaper alternatives to get started.....;)
However, if somebody knows of any pitfalls concerning notebook buying, let me know..... |
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| alvaius |
| Dell, IBM, Toshiba do seem the most reliable. Sony has 1394 built in. The Soundblaster Audigy USB is less than $200 USD. 100db SNR on playback, can't remember the record. I am suprised by the quality of playback. |
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| pjkunz |
General tip on notebooks,
Most PC notebooks have only 2 slots for memory and are often default spec'd with both slots filled (ie 256Mb= 2X128Mb), its cheaper for them this way. ALWAYS get you memory in one slot, it cost a little extra, but if you ever need more you're not forced to basically toss half your current memory. Dell, gateway,IBM, etc all often do this (fill the slots) with their laptops unless you spec otherwise.
FWIW,
Pete Kunz |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by bob4
per-anders, I probably won't do any processing when recording. |
When I have recorded vinyl I have had rumble filter on. First I had also deNoiser but when I got more experienced I noticed that it was wiser to adjust the noise reduction with a little bit more "Fingerspitzgefühle". Easy on the settings....
BTW: You audio nerds: have you tested DeNoiser from Steinberg? It's Dolby H, I, J or even K. Think of what my life would had been with this wonder with my cassette deck!!! DeNoiser and DeClicker are marvelous! |
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| Jimmy154 |
What's up with your Zetag cross-over. You told me that if I gave you my e-mail address you would send me a schematic of your cross-over. But it's been 3 weeks I think since I posted my e-mail address in the loudspeaker forum. Did you change your mind about giving me your cross-over design? I'd be happy if you didn't change your mind of course, but I would like to know if you are not going to give me your cross-over design also. So I can start designing my own soon-to-be horrible flawed cross-over.
-Jimmy |
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| bob4 |
Jimmy,
there's a nice small button on every post that reads "email". By clicking on it you can send a email to the person who made the post. ;) |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Bob,
Provided the notebook has a USB port I would certainly consider Per-Anders' advice.
It is a much more universal standard than PCMCIA and it would allow you to use the soundsystem on any other PC having a USB port making for a better investment IMHO.
Beware however that there are two USB standards that are not necessarily backwards compatible with everything: USB1.X and USB2.0.
Will you buy a new or used notebook?
And you really mean "notebook" not "laptop"?
Ciao, |
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| peranders |
USB 1.1 (12 MBit when the sun shines) don't give you so many channels. 48 kSP, 24 bit is 144 kByte per second = 8 channels theoretically.
FireWire is "sufficient" => many channels
USB 2.0 is virtually non-existant for the moment. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
You all know USB's nickname?
Unused Serial Bus.
| quote: | | USB 2.0 is virtually non-existant for the moment. |
For PC it is out there for a couple of years already.
Firewire for PC will require an add-on card or,in the case of a notebook a pcmcia card.
Cheers,;) |
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| peranders |
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
For PC it is out there for a couple of years already.
Firewire for PC will require an add-on card or,in the case of a notebook a pcmcia card.
Cheers,;) |
USB 2 is very rare especially when it comes to accessories but is coming strong I must admit.
BTW: Dell doesn't know what USB 2 is! I bought my machine not long ago and when I asked about USB 2 they answered :scratch:
BTW2: Is FW so rare on PC:s? |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Per-Anders,
| quote: | | Dell doesn't know what USB 2 is! |
Really?
Usually they are on the frontline when it comes to integrate the latest and greatest.
| quote: | | Is FW so rare on PC:s? |
Compared to USB it definitely is.
Don't forget that when the big players wanted to choose a port where they could attach mutliple serial devices Mac Intosh came up with firewire and the Wintel corporates opted for the vastly inferior (in bandwidth at least) USB.
Looking from that angle you can understand that not many motherboard manufacturers for Intel CPUs integrate the Firewire standard.
Quite a few digital cameramakers now offer models that you hook up on the USB port whereas before all you had was Firewire.
Cheers,;) |
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| bob4 |
Hi Frank,
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Will you buy a new or used notebook? |
New :D
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
And you really mean "notebook" not "laptop"? |
Is there any difference? :confused:
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Provided the notebook has a USB port I would certainly consider Per-Anders' advice.
It is a much more universal standard than PCMCIA and it would allow you to use the soundsystem on any other PC having a USB port making for a better investment IMHO.
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That's of course an important argument. But:
1. I'm going to give my old PC to my brother, the notebook will be my main machine.
2. I intend to study sound engineering / recording (it's similar to the german "Tonmeister"), and will definitely be using the setup for demanding multitrack recording later on. So IMHO it's a case to go big or go home (regarding the audio device). It wouldn't make any sense to spend money on some equipment I will later have to sell/ give away 'cause I want to upgrade to something bigger.
3. Concerning the usage on other PC's: the thingie I want to buy consists of a PCI or PCMCIA card and a breakout box (you canchoose between analog and digital. they're perfectly compatible with each other, so when I have the money to buy a normal PC, I simply buy the PCI card (250 EUR), and then I can use it along with the breakout box I already own.
But thank you for your input and for spending some thoughts on it :)
quote:
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Originally posted by fdegrove
Firewire for PC will require an add-on card or,in the case of a notebook a pcmcia card.
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is that true??
any further comments are welcome of course......
just in case anybody is interested:Hammerfall DSP |
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| fdegrove |
Hi Bob,
Now that explains your interest in the mics and so on...hmmm interesting studies.:)
| quote: | | Is there any difference? |
Yes.
Mainly in size and weight.The laptop being the heavier one.
Some manufacturers also skimp on accessories on the notebook to make them lighter.
'Fraid so.
Portables don't have slots which is why you use PCMCIA devices as add-ons.
Not cheap either.
Cheers and good luck with the studies,;) |
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| bob4 |
Hey Frank,
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi Bob,
Now that explains your interest in the mics and so on...hmmm interesting studies.:) |
Hell Yeah.... :cool:
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Mainly in size and weight.The laptop being the heavier one.
Some manufacturers also skimp on accessories on the notebook to make them lighter. |
I'll have to check out.
| quote: | Originally posted by fdegrove
Cheers and good luck with the studies,;) |
Hoho, eaaasyyyy, first I've got to do my duty in Finland, after that, we'll see.... |
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| Jimmy154 |
| quote: | Originally posted by bob4
Jimmy,
there's a nice small button on every post that reads "email". By clicking on it you can send a email to the person who made the post. ;) |
Hey thanks for patronizing me bob, you know some people sign up to this forum give a secondary e-mail address that is rarely use or don't check their e-mail, like myself. This dude told me 2 or 3 months ago he would give me his cross-over design when he was done, so I've been waiting and now he's ignoring me, I think.
And there's these things in every hardware store called "claps." When applying them to glued wood they make the joint stronger, but when putting them on your head they just hurt. ;)
And, in my useless opinion, I think you should try Windows XP, runs much faster than 95/98/ME. |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
I'm sure Bob was only trying to help.
Ignore me now,;) |
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| moses |
One of the reasons for intergrated USB over Firewire in PC was probably because USB didn't have any royality costs, and firewire had a per port royality cost. I would assume a firewire OHCI/UHCI is more expensive to implement as they are more complex. Also the name issue which is rather pathetic.
As for intergration, lots of modern laptops intergrate Firewire - such as Vaio(under the name i.Link) and Dell. Same with USB2.0. There is a large number of perhipals available for both Firewire and USB2.0, including mass storage units which would probably be helpful in your case if you're doing a large amount of audio work. There is probably more USB2 perhipals then there is Firewire(not including consumer devices) as the standard is more popular among PC manufactorers. It should also be noted that most modern laptops have a Mini-PCI slot, although finding mini-pci perhipals is difficult.
I'd go for the breakout box and PCMCIA card personally. As for which laptop, that really depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. If you're looking for a huge amount of power a Dell Inspiron 8200 is one of the most powerful laptops that is still actually mobile, it's also a hefty 8 lbs. The Gateway 600 is also a powerhouse. As for RAM, it can be easily upgraded. The harddrive can be upgraded too, or you can use an external Firewire/USB2 drive that could easily be transfered between machines like your breakout box. An external Firewire/USB2 3.5" box usually goes for about $55 or so. |
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| lohk |
As a pro musician and a composer I recommend RME cards without hesitation. There is nothing comparable to the Notebook solution right now. Forget all the Firewire or even USB stuff if you want to use lots of tracks, effects/plugins etc. and want to have very low latency and a really marvellous sound !
Klaus |
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| fdegrove |
Hi,
| quote: | | One of the reasons for intergrated USB over Firewire in PC was probably because USB didn't have any royality costs, and firewire had a per port royality cost. I would assume a firewire OHCI/UHCI is more expensive to implement as they are more complex. Also the name issue which is rather pathetic. |
No,royalties had nothing to do with it really.
They (Wintel/Mac) all wanted their own standard.
The only standard you have is that there are no standards.
Cheers,;) |
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| bob4 |
Sorry guys,
I've been away for some time, I just got my driving license!! :car: :cheerful: :D :drink: :cloud9:
OK, back to the beef (this is going to be a long one ;) ):
First of all: Sorry Jimmy! No Prob.| quote: | | And, in my useless opinion, |
I don't think it's useless :)
| quote: |
I think you should try Windows XP, runs much faster than 95/98/ME. |
How do you know I'm not running XP :confused:
| quote: |
Originally posted by fdegrove
Mainly in size and weight.The laptop being the heavier one.
Some manufacturers also skimp on accessories on the notebook
to make them lighter.
|
It seems like the big manufacturers that I checked out (IBM, DELL, Compaq) have decided to label both as notebooks. I actually haven't heard anybody talk anymore about "laptops" for some time. But that's ok for me, I don't care if it's called "notebook", "laptop" or "pile o' sh#t" , as long as it works.
At the moment I'm heavily in favour of the Dell Inspiron 8200, they're cheaper than compaq, vaio or IBM, and you can configure 'em the way you want. The coolest thing, is that you can save up to 350 EUR when reducing the warranty time to minimum (1 year)!! :spin:
| quote: | | The harddrive can be upgraded too, or you can use an external Firewire /USB2 drive that could easily be transfered between machines like your breakout box. |
moses, that's exactly the thing I'm going to do! And once again, the Inspiron 8200 scores with a built in Fire-wire port :D
| quote: | | As a pro musician and a composer I recommend RME cards without hesitation. There is nothing comparable to the Notebook solution right now. Forget all the Firewire or even USB stuff if you want to use lots of tracks, effects/plugins etc. and want to have very low latency and a really marvellous sound ! |
Surely true, but first I'll have to save up a few EUR, that's the only rotten point :bawling: :bawling:
Merry :xmastree: :hohoho: |
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| bob4 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
And there's these things in every hardware store called "claps." When applying them to glued wood they make the joint stronger, but when putting them on your head they just hurt. ;) |
Thanks for pointing out ;) :D :D |
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| Jimmy154 |
I'm sorry too. I thought you were making fun of me in a bad way.
Anyway, I noticed that programs open quicker, like Microsoft says. And run without crashing. Not all that acturrate. My Kazza Media Desktop doesn't crash but my Hoyle Casino 2001 game causes my computer to restart, so I got rid of Windows XP, I like the poker game Hoyle Casino has and my computer is fast enough. And also the internet is slower for me on Windows XP.
But it is a great improvement in speed over Windows ME and reliability, but not in my case. My internet connection is uniquely slow (2.8 K/sec max download speed), I suspect that others will not have a problem with it though.
You can download it using ***** Media Desktop. *****.com |
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| bob4 |
Jimmy,
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
I'm sorry too. I thought you were making fun of me in a bad way. |
Not my style :angel:
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
[B]Anyway, I noticed that programs open quicker, like Microsoft says. And run without crashing. [..] And also the internet is slower for me on Windows XP.[..], but not in my case. [..] |
How come your machine is slower with XP if it generally performs better :confused:
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
You can download it using ***** Media Desktop. *****.com |
Yeah, I've got a friend who's a bit of a computer nerd.... builds his own CPU watercooling etc., he has a DSL flatrate, and is a veeery content ***** user (I don't have to point out where he get's his OS from :D ). So if I need anything, I pay him a visit............
Does it pay off for you to use ***** if your connection is so slow? |
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| Jimmy154 |
My computer is not slower. When downloading with ***** using Windows XP I can only download at 1.8 K/sec instead of my blazing fast :rolleyes: 2.8 K/sec with Windows ME. Although I haven't updated Kazza for a long time.
***** is weird like that. I've been on a T1 line (1 Mb/sec) and only been able to get .1 K/sec per user or download. I used to use hotline for downloading things. But it is degraded into a collection of protective private groups. Although if you need something you can't find using Kazza it might still be worth the trouble.
Windows XP is a much better OS than Windows 95/98/ME. Comparing Windows XP to Windows 95/98/ME is almost like comparing Windows 95/98/ME to Windows 3.11.
Water cooled heat sinks are a very cool idea, sorry about the dumb pun. You can only do so much with air. Even Porsche and Harley Davison doesn't use air to cool it's motors anymore, to use a extreme example. Your friend might be a nerd, but all people who use computers are nerds, except for me, I'm cool;).
I just hate dealing with people over computers, they are totally amoral. Like this guy who said he would give me his x-over design 2 months ago. I've been waiting for him for 2 months, I could of had my speakers done by now, instead of having to do them in the middle of winter, not to mention listening to my computer speakers for the past 2 months.
Another guy who sucks is on ebay, he wanted to sell me some and I quote him "Scan Speak 15W/8530K00" speakers for $55 a pair. I felt like I would be ripping him off if I didn't tell him how much they're worth. So I told him they were worth $300 a pair. He e-mailed me back, and instead of thanking me, he tod me he made a mistake on the model number and that I could buy something else from him. I wrote him telling him he's a liar and then he wrote me back he wasn't. Sure enough next day they were on ebay starting at $150 for the pair and claiming a retail price of $300.
But on the other side the internet allows me to communicate with intelligent people, like yourself, when I want to know something. Cause my friends are not concerned with computers or audio or anything that invovles even a little thought. |
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| bob4 |
Hi Jimmy,
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
Your friend might be a nerd, but all people who use computer are nerds, except for me, I'm cool;). |
Me too!!! :D
btw, the guy isn't THAT much of a nerd... ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
I just hate dealing with people over computers, they are totally amoral. |
It's always sad to hear about people behaving like the moron on ebay. That'S life! I have fortunately not had any bad experiences on the net in general, on ebay or this forum (I must admit that I don't frequent any other forums). Guess I've been lucky.......
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
But on the other side the internet allows me to communicate with intelligent people, like yourself, when I want to know something. |
Nice compliment, thanks :angel:
| quote: | Originally posted by Jimmy154
Cause my friends are not concerned with computers or audio or anything that invovles even a little thought. |
Hmm, that's sad, but you could try to infect 'em :D :D |
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| moses |
| You are aware that ***** other then providing functionallity to a peer to peer network also includes a number of unwanted "features". To start with, random pop ads. Ever notice that if only ***** is running you'll get pop-up ads, randomly? That is ***** or some other piece of software that you have such as Gator or Bonzi Buddy. ***** also includes Cydoor and BDE Projector, the both of which are spyware. By looking for personal information on your PC they build an add database to you and then resell this information. BDE Projector is also turns your PC into a completely controllable remote client, allowing them to use your bandwidth and CPU time anyway they want to. It's a very invasive piece of software, I would recommend avoiding it. If you really need then it then try "***** Lite" or "K-Lite" which are hacked versions of the software blocking some of the most invasive features of the softare. Perhaps try a different network or client such as mldonkey or one of the open Gnutella2 clients. |
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| peranders |
| Digidesign's FireWire interface seems to be the best in the market right now, not cheap also. Can anyone beat 114 dB S/N? |
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| bob4 |
| quote: | Originally posted by peranders
Digidesign's FireWire interface seems to be the best in the market right now, not cheap also. Can anyone beat 114 dB S/N? |
Seems to be a good choice, especially if you're already used to Pro Tools. And you get some nice knobs to play with :)
weakest link: the price. But if you can afford it, it sure will be worth it.....
Some facts from th RME Homepage on the Multiface (breakout box for the Hammerfall DSP system):
Supported sample rates: 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, variable
8 buffer sizes/latencies available: 1.5 ms, 3 ms, 6 ms, 12 ms, 23 ms, 46 ms, 93 ms, 186 ms
ASIO zero CPU load technology: 0 (zero!)% CPU load when using ALL 36 channels!
All settings changeable in realtime
Enhanced Zero Latency Monitoring for latency-free submixes and perfect ASIO Direct Monitoring
Dynamic ratio analog AD: 105 dBA, DA: 112 dBA
THD+N AD: -96 dB (0.0016%), DA: -91 dB (0.002%)
Analog level @ 0 dBFS (set by internal jumpers): +2 dBV, +13
dBu, +19 dBu
Here are the links, if somebody wants to compare:
digidesign RME Hammerfall DSP |
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| peranders |
The Digidesign interface costs 26000 SEK including the software ProTools. 32 channels.
(8.80 SEK = 1 USD) |
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