| ashok |
Is there any DVD-ROM or writer that can spew out 24 bit192KHz ( DVD-A playbacK ) spdif signals on its digital output (?) terminal ?
Can one pull it off any point on the pcb ?
Thanks. |
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| DragonMaster |
| They all output 16/44.1 the digital out connector is for legacy audio CD playback. To play 24/192 you need DVD-A software and a soundcard giving a 24/192 SPDIF output, which only a few cards can do (Cards with 24/192 analog outputs doesn't mean that SPDIF 24/192 wil actually work. You would need to use I2S instead of SPDIF if you want 24/192 |
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| Daveis |
DVD-Audio and SACD are digitally crippled formats. Any device that supports these formats will not output them digitally... at least not above 16/44.
You could record the analog outputs with an A/D convertor and master to HDCD. Some DVD players understand HDCD.
Or you could try to find a compromised DVD-Audio software player and record your music to wave. (WinDVD no longer works for this unless you have an old copy) Then you just need a good soundcard to play back. But many sound cards are limited to 24/96 digital. This is still noticeably better than 16/44 and well worth it on good recordings.
On the positive side, DVD-A and SACD still sounded better on my Panasonic receivers using the lackluster analog inputs rather than using 16/44 digital inputs. The Panasonic SA-XR45/XR50 use a TI Equibit digital amp chip that doesnt need to do an A/D conversion when fed a digital signal.
I have a Toshiba portable DVD-A and DVD player whose outputs sound quite nice through headphones. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | DVD-Audio and SACD are digitally crippled formats. Any device that supports these formats will not output them digitally... at least not above 16/44. |
In fact, the main reason is that a computer DVD drive will not read a DVD-A as it would read a CD through the headphones output.
To get 24/192 you'll need a 24/192 capable soundcard and pull the I2S stream to the DAC you want to feed with. (SPDIF 24/192 gear seems to exist, but is extremely hard to find) |
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| Daveis |
To my knowledge you cant get 24/192 DVD-A without doing something the RIAA doesnt want you to do.
If you want to digitally rip the DVD-A to wave that's possible, but not easy as most software holes have been closed.
Probably best to let the DVD-A and SACD formats die. The RIAA doesnt want us to have good sounding music anymore. They'd prefer to license DRM crippled lossy music at sub-16/44 resolution.
I remember the days when the RIAA actually wanted to make LP's sound good. Oh and there was Dolby and DBX noise reduction for casette tapes.
Now it's overcompressed CD's or MP3's.... |
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| FastEddy |
" ... you cant get 24/192 DVD-A without doing something the RIAA doesnt want you to do. ..."
True enough: not allowed.
But in the case of bandwidth (192K) there is no problems putting 96K through it ... so a 24 bit / 192k data frame capable connection can pass a 24 bit / 96K data frame or 16 bit / 44K or whatever within the constraints of the bandwidth allowed.
I have a Pioneer DVD / DVD-A / CD player that claims 24 bit / 96K bandwidth and it plays CD quality 16 bit / 44K CDs without any problems and DVD-A without problems ...
The point is that building for greater bandwidth allows the lesser bandwidth stuff to pass through.
:) |
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| FastEddy |
... it appears that the pros (studio engineers / recordists / performers / sophisticated garage bands) are beginning to try to do this in a left handed fashion:
A most interesting new device: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_...ridge-main.html
" ... send up to 32 channels of Lightpipe [SPDIF ?] simultaneously at 44.1 or 48kHzÑor transfer up to 16 channels at 88.2 or 96kHz using the SMUX protocol. ... " (SPDIF = 16 bit / 44-48 ... SMUX = 24 bit / 96k === each channel, I suppose. Looks like Bob Dylan may get his way "real soon now".) :hot:
These kinds of optical devices are primarily intended to reduce / eliminate ground loop problems and power supply isolation between the recording room & sound control booth ... but no telling where they may find other uses ... like maybe my own home system? ... or yours?
I suppoes a system might work like this:
Multiple sources >>to>> the FW mixer above >>to>> sound booth computer >>=>> multiple tracks into big WAV files >>=>> to DVD (A?) or other digital masters >>=>> production DVD-A or other optical disc format ... (Play back = TBD?).
Anyway, I'm off to the AES trade show in San Francisco and these guys are supposed to be there (or at least their engineers = http://www.aes.org/ ). Report to follow (this thread or on another thread). (Trade shows= I hate 'em, but duty calls.)
;)
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| rfbrw |
| S/MUX has nothing to do with SPDIF. |
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| Daveis |
S/MUX allows two ADAT Lightpipe cables to be combined.
Typically ADAT is limited to 48khz. MUX'ing two channels together gets you upto 96khz(maybe higher).
ADAT is not the same thing as SP/DIF. Although, ADAT devices do use the same toslink style connectors.
I believe there are better ways to transmit multiple channels of audio than ADAT. But ADAT seems very, very common. |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by Daveis
S/MUX allows two ADAT Lightpipe cables to be combined.
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Not quite. Standard ADAT consists of eight 48k channels. S/MUX splits one 96k channel across two 48k channels or one 192k channel across four 48K channels such that one ADAT connection carries eight 48k channels, four 96k channels or two 192k channels. |
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| FastEddy |
" ... S/MUX allows two ADAT Lightpipe cables to be combined. Typically ADAT is limited to 48khz. MUX'ing two channels together gets you upto 96khz ... ADAT devices do use the same toslink style connectors [as SPDIF]. ... ADAT seems very, very common. ..."
So common that it works? Common enough that it might be prefered to 16 bit/44k quality? Common enough that even a hollywood producer might recognize it as better audio for the the same manufacturing costs?
The question is how do we get this higher bit rate / bandwidth into our audio systems without
a) breaking the bank.
b) jumping through hoops for the Music Industrial Complex's oppressive rules re: standards and copy protection and p***ing off Sony, et al.
c) getting reasonably better quality without busting up last century's inferior CD technology.
I am under the impression that high(er) quality studio masters are being produced at better than multichannel 24 bit/96k right now and it is possible to reproduce these masters on inexpensive optical discs in an almost "universally" playable/readable format (available to us mortals as DVD-A and other protocols).
To quote last century's baby boomer mantra: "We want it all and we want it all now!"
:smash: |
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| rfbrw |
| It is like any other piece of equipment intended for people who have a living to earn, it is there if you want it. |
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| Daveis |
ashok, why do you want to send the signal digitally? Any DVD,DVA-A,SACD player has analog outputs with 24/96 or 24/192 resolution.
Are you doing digital crossover?
Sending the signal long distances?
Because if your DVD player is sitting right next to a preamp, you'd really have no need for it.
If you want to use an upgraded external DAC I guess I could see why you'd want to. But I've found that most of the unmodded DVA-A and SACD players sound pretty good.
A file called dvdaripper_099f.zip was available briefly on rarewares that would work with WinDVD7 and earlier to extract digital. |
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| ashok |
Hi Daveis,
I have two reasons for this. One is to feed the signal to an external 24/192 DAC and the other is to use 24/192 signals for evaluating new system implementations. The only genuine 24/192 material I can get is off a DVD-A disc.
I have a Pioneer 677AS DVD player which plays DVD-A . However my Marantz CD-17-II sounds better than it in CD playback. So the DVD-A is suspect. A Denon DVD2900 also sounds better however that was a different system and so not really comparable.
Cheers,
Ashok. |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by ashok
So.... WDWDN ? |
I would imagine we do nothing. It is up to you. Some players can be modified to give you access to the 24/192 data before it is altered. |
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| ashok |
"..............I would imagine we do nothing........."
I stand corrected ....... WDIDN !
There don't seem to be any ready made solutions but thanks for the posts by everyone. I'll keep trying to see if I can do something about it.
Cheers,
Ashok. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | There don't seem to be any ready made solutions but thanks for the posts by everyone. I'll keep trying to see if I can do something about it. |
There is a PCB on diyaudio allowing you to plug it in the I2S outputs of a DVD player DAC and it's converting it to 24/96 SPDIF. Does it sound interesting? If you want 24/192 you can't use SPDIF tho. |
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| fmak |
| quote: | Originally posted by DragonMaster
There is a PCB on diyaudio allowing you to plug it in the I2S outputs of a DVD player DAC and it's converting it to 24/96 SPDIF. Does it sound interesting? If you want 24/192 you can't use SPDIF tho. |
Which PCB are you referring to. I am interested in intercepting the output (notI2S) of a satellite receiver to the dadc to output spdif. Just needs a CS 8404/6 I guess.
The oelich board does its job well in a dvd player, but raw output at 24/192 into a jitter buster is what I desire as unfortunately the 192k output of cheaper dvd players is very poor.
:angel: |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by DragonMaster
If you want 24/192 you can't use SPDIF tho. |
Really. It appears no one told AKM,Cirrus and TI. They all manufacture
24/192 capable SPDIF transmitters. |
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| DragonMaster |
Here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...&threadid=48393
It's supposed to be for an other task but will work perfectly.
| quote: | | Really. It appears no one told AKM,Cirrus and TI. They all manufacture |
That could be a solution to remove the 24-96 limit of the PCB of the thread I wass talking about. |
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| audioengr |
You can get 24/192 I2S output from the Northstar Transport from regular CD's upsampled. This can be converted easily to S/PDIF, but I would not do it. Just use the I2S.
There are not that many DVD-A's out there to make this very interesting anyway, and this format will probably die a miserable death just like SACD....
Steve N. |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by DragonMaster
That could be a solution to remove the 24-96 limit of the PCB of the thread I wass talking about. |
The 96k limit is limited to the ASRC output and it is not a function of the CS8406. It will happily pass 192K data. It is the ASRC that is limited to 96k by the mode it is set to operate in on that particular board. Given the added circuitry needed to get the ASRC to output 192K data, it is understandable that the designer opted not to. |
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| DragonMaster |
| I see, so in fact, it's better to buy the bypassing version, that just leaves the original samplerate instead of resampling everything. |
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| fmak |
| quote: | Originally posted by DragonMaster
I see, so in fact, it's better to buy the bypassing version, that just leaves the original samplerate instead of resampling everything. |
Exactly; that's what I have. The output from the asrc in version 1sucks and doesn't sound good compared to the pioneer spdif output.
The problem with the 192k output is that there is very visible jitter (about 10nS spread on my scope in the eye pattern). Needs an external relock circuit.
Unlike other comments, I can play 176.4 and 193k .wav files thru my dCS system, and sonically there is a lot more transparency that 96k. Pity there is not much good music although high sample rate recordings are on the up.
SACD converted to 88k thru the Pioneer 575 and relocked thru my dCS sounds good upsampled to 176.4k. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | The problem with the 192k output is that there is very visible jitter (about 10nS spread on my scope in the eye pattern). Needs an external relock circuit. |
Better look for an other SPDIF transmitter then! |
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| FastEddy |
" ... The problem with the 192k output is that there is very visible jitter (about 10nS spread on my scope in the eye pattern). Needs an external relock circuit ..."
" ... Better look for an other SPDIF transmitter then! ..."
" ... The 96k limit is limited to the ASRC output and it is not a function of the CS8406. It will happily pass 192K data. It is the ASRC that is limited to 96k by the mode it is set to operate in on that particular board. ... "
So, what exactly are we talking here? Problems with the 24/192 chips or problems with USB?
How come this is possible? : " ... supports 16-channel Lightpipe operation at 88.2 and 96kHz sample rates via the SMUX protocol ..." (converted and connected via FireWire "transport" >> from: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_...ridge-main.html )
I guess I'm confused by the "transport" references. We apparently have several methodologies available to "transport" and convert to analog from 24bit/98k or 24bit/192k over a distance using optical/coaxial/twisted pair(s) interface ... recognizing that the various competing chip makers are, as usual, overly complicating their specification and nominclaiture in order to appear "better" ... and clarification about the number of channels per pipe/port/fiber/cable connection we are dealing with might in order.
... and has anyone seen this gadget: http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm = "... 224 different configurations ..." including multichannel 24bit/352+k ... these folks apparently recognize the limitations of USB and only use it for control, not actual data "transport".
I'm not saying all previous technologies should be abandoned ... just that something commercially viable should be fixed as a reasonable goal for us seeking quality audio.
Lets take a quick straw poll:
DVD-A ? SCAC (sic) ? something else that modern DVD players can deal with?
SPDIF? TDIF? SMUX? I2S? MADI? SDIF-3?
What we decide here may have an affect on this whole grand falloon, so speak up.
:confused:
( I don't have an axe to grind with USB as my company was the first online with USB products in 1996 ( http://usbstuff.com ) :) ... and I would like to do it again with another emerging technology :smash: )
"All the world's problems can be resolved by fixing the impedence mismatch ..." - Bob Porter, mad scientist |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
" ... The problem with the 192k output is that there is very visible jitter (about 10nS spread on my scope in the eye pattern). Needs an external relock circuit ..."
" ... Better look for an other SPDIF transmitter then! ..."
" ... The 96k limit is limited to the ASRC output and it is not a function of the CS8406. It will happily pass 192K data. It is the ASRC that is limited to 96k by the mode it is set to operate in on that particular board. ... "
So, what exactly are we talking here? Problems with the 24/192 chips or problems with USB?
How come this is possible? : " ... supports 16-channel Lightpipe operation at 88.2 and 96kHz sample rates via the SMUX protocol ..." (converted and connected via FireWire "transport" >> from: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_...ridge-main.html )
I guess I'm confused by the "transport" references. We apparently have several methodologies available to "transport" and convert to analog from 24bit/98k or 24bit/192k over a distance using optical/coaxial/twisted pair(s) interface ... recognizing that the various competing chip makers are, as usual, overly complicating their specification and nominclaiture in order to appear "better" ... and clarification about the number of channels per pipe/port/fiber/cable connection we are dealing with might in order.
... and has anyone seen this gadget: http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm = "... 224 different configurations ..." including multichannel 24bit/352+k ... these folks apparently recognize the limitations of USB and only use it for control, not actual data "transport".
I'm not saying all previous technologies should be abandoned ... just that something commercially viable should be fixed as a reasonable goal for us seeking quality audio.
Lets take a quick straw poll:
DVD-A ? SCAC (sic) ? something else that modern DVD players can deal with?
SPDIF? TDIF? SMUX? I2S? MADI? SDIF-3?
What we decide here may have an affect on this whole grand falloon, so speak up.
:confused:
( I don't have an axe to grind with USB as my company was the first online with USB products in 1996 ( http://usbstuff.com ) :) ... and I would like to do it again with another emerging technology :smash: )
"All the world's problems can be resolved by fixing the impedence mismatch ..." - Bob Porter, mad scientist |
Herr Oehlrich's board and the AD1896 is one issue, USB another and ADAT a third and it does no one any good to lump them all together. |
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| gmarsh |
| quote: | Originally posted by fmak
The problem with the 192k output is that there is very visible jitter (about 10nS spread on my scope in the eye pattern). Needs an external relock circuit. |
What scope are you using, and what's its bandwidth? At 192KHz, the sample rate is quite high. If you've got a 20MHz bandwidth on your scope, you'll get spreading which looks like jitter. Plus, the triggering jitter on your scope will spread it even more.
That being said, I've used coax SPDIF, Toslink and AES/EBU, all at 192KHz. Works fine. |
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| fmak |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmarsh
What scope are you using, and what's its bandwidth? At 192KHz, the sample rate is quite high. If you've got a 20MHz bandwidth on your scope, you'll get spreading which looks like jitter. Plus, the triggering jitter on your scope will spread it even more.
That being said, I've used coax SPDIF, Toslink and AES/EBU, all at 192KHz. Works fine. |
150MHz and 400MHz. I am talking about the v1 board and not anything else. What are you talking about?
Something that works may not sound great!!! |
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