| Kuei Yang Wang |
Folks,
Given that good old discordian Philosopher Bob Wilson gets a mention (in a thread about Girls no less - Bob would be so chuffed I think) I think giving some small measure of recognition to his work is due. Quoted here is under strict application of the "fair usage" law a section from the triolgies appendix, purporting to be a section of the Booklett "Never whistle while your'e ****ing" by Freiherr Hagbard Celine....
I feel that some of the concepts and ideas are very relevant to the social microcosm of Audio as much as to the social macrocosm on this little ball of dirt we call home....
Of Damned and other Things
==========================
I once overheard two botanists arguing over a Damned Thing that had blasphemously sprouted in a college yard. One claimed that the Damned Thing was a tree and the other claimed that it was a shrub. They each had good scholary arguments, and they were still debating when I left them. The world is forever spawning Damned Things- things that are neither tree nor shrub, fish nor fowl, black nor white- and the categorical thinker can only regard the spiky and buzzing world of sensory fact as a profound insult to his card-index system of classifications. Worst of all are the facts which violate "common sense", that dreary bog of sullen prejudice and muddy inertia. The whole history of science is the odyssey of a pixilated card-indexer perpetually sailing between such Damned Things and desperately juggling his classifications to fit them in, just as the history of politics is the futile epic of a long series of attempts to line up the Damned Things and cajole them to march in regiment.
Every ideology is a mental murder, a reduction of dynamic living
processes to static classifications, and every classification is a
Damnation, just as every inclusion is an exclusion. In a busy,
buzzing universe where no two snow flakes are identical, and no two trees are identical, and no two people are identical- and, indeed, the smallest sub-atomic particle, we are assured, is not even identical with itself from one microsecond to the next - every card-index system is a delusion. "Or, to put it more charitably," as
Nietzsche says, "we are all better artists than we realize."
It is easy to see that label "Jew" was a Damnation in Nazi Germany, but actually the label "Jew" is a Damnation anywhere, even where anti-semitism does not exist. "He is a Jew," "He is a doctor," and "He is a poet" mean, to the card indexing centre of the cortex, that my experience with him will be like my experience with other Jews, other doctors, and other poets. Thus, individuality is ignored when identity is asserted. At a party or any place where strangers meet, watch this mechanism in action.
Behind the friendly overtures there is wariness as each person fishes for the label that will identify and Damn the other. Finally, it is revealed: "Oh, he's an advertising copywriter," "Oh, he's an engine-lathe operator." Both parties relax, for now they know how to behave, what roles to play in the game. Ninety-nine percent of each has been Damned; the other is reacting to
the 1 percent that has been labeled by the card-index machine.
Certain Damnations are socially and intellectually necessary, of
course. A custard pie thrown in a comedian's face is Damned by the physicist who analyzes it according to the Newtonian laws of motion. These equations tell us we want to know about the impact of the pie on the face, but nothing about the human meaning of pie-throwing. A cultural anthropologist, analyzing the social function of the comedian as shaman, court jester, and king's surrogate, explains the pie-throwing as a survival of the Feast of Fools and the killing of the king's double. This Damns the subject in another way. A psychoanalyst, finding an Oedipal castration ritual here, has performed a third Damnation, and the Marxist, seeing an outlet for the worker's repressed rage against the bosses, performs a fourth. Each Damnation has its values and uses, but is nonetheless a Damnation unless its partial and arbitrary nature is recognized. The poet, who compares the pie in the comedian's face with Decline of the West or his own lost love, commits a fifth Damnation, but in this case the game element and the whimsicality of the symbolism are safely obvious. At least, one would hope so; reading the New Critics occasionally raises doubts on this point.
Human society can be structured either according to the principle of authority or according to the principle of liberty. Authority is a
static social configuration in which people act as superiors and inferiors: a sado-masochistic relationship. Liberty is a dynamic
social configuration in which people act as equals: an erotic relationship. In every interaction between people, either Authority or Liberty is the dominant factor. Families, churches, lodges, clubs and corporations are either more authoritarian than libertarian or more libertarian than authoritarian. It becomes obvious as we proceed that the most pugnacious and intolerant form of authority is the State, which even today dares to assume absolutism which the church itself has long ago surrendered and to enforce obedience with the Church's old and shameful Inquisition. Every form of authoritarianism is, however, a small "State," even if it has a membership of only two. Freud's remark to the effect that the delusion of many men is religion can be generalized: The authoritarianism of one man is crime and the authoritarianism of many is State.
Benjamin Tucker wrote quite accurately: Aggression is simply another name for government. Aggression, invasion, government are interchangeable terms. The essence of government is control, or the attempt to control. He who attempts to control another is a governor, an aggressor, an invader; and the nature of such invasion is not changed, whether it be made by one man upon another man, after the manner of the ordinary criminal, or by
one man upon all other men, after the manner of an absolute monarch, or by all other men upon one man, after the manner of a modern democracy. Tucker's use of the word "invasion" is remarkably precise, considering that he wrote more than fifty years before the basic discovery of ethology. Every act of authority is, in fact, an invasion of the psychic and physical territory of another.
Every fact of science was once Damned. Every invention was considered impossible. Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy. Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly. The entire web of culture and "progress," everything on earth that is man-made and not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man's refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly said, "Disobedience was man's Original Virtue."
The most thoroughly and relentlessly Damned, banned, excluded,
condemned, forbidden, ostracized, ignore, suppressed, repressed, robbed, brutalized and defamed of all Damned Things is the individual human being. The social engineers, statistician, psychologist, sociologists, market researchers, landlords, bureaucrats, captains of industry, bankers, governors, commissars, kings and presidents are perpetually forcing this Damned Thing into carefully prepared blueprints and perpetually irritated that the Damned Thing will not fit into the slot assigned it. The theologians call it a sinner and try to reform it. The governor calls it a criminal and tries to punish it. The psychologist calls it a neurotic and tries to cure it.
Still, the Damned Thing will not fit into their slots.
==============================================
Sayonara
Fnord
A totally unrelated link:
The Antiqueties of the Illuminati
=======================
http://www.antiqillum.com/
Fnord
A totally related link:
Heavy Grass
=========
http://www.rawilson.com/goldenapple.shtml
Fnord
A somewhat related link:
Principia Discordia
=============
http://www.ology.org/principia/
Fnord
You should now inexplicably feel a state of acute paranoia and panic.
Fnord |
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| Nielsio |
These things are what I was looking for.
Very interesting stuff.
How did you come about this. |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nielsio
These things are what I was looking for.
Very interesting stuff.
How did you come about this. |
I prayed to the Lord
and HE was there
beliver i am now
that is how it all began for me |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Nielsio
These things are what I was looking for.
Very interesting stuff.
How did you come about this. |
I list "rejected knowledge" among my interests but am able to take it all not THAT serious. As for the rest, to find follow the old formula from the emerald tablets latain translation:
V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
"Visitae Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem"
Visit the interior parts of the earth: by rectification thou shalt find the hidden stone.
Sayonara
93, 93/93
PS, never yourself too serious, "convictions make convicts" (or "Your believes imprison yourself") |
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| Nielsio |
| By the way, T: are these the changes in "Due to changes in my personal life I will in the foreseeable future not have much time to spend discussing audio". |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I, OTOH, find that by being married, have much more time discussing audio than before.;) |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
I, OTOH, find that by being married, have much more time discussing audio than before.;) |
how come??? :confused: :confused:
i am single
spend my lifetime
and my earnings as i like :) |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Nielsio
By the way, T: are these the changes in "Due to changes in my personal life I will in the foreseeable future not have much time to spend discussing audio". |
No, the personal changes are more around a charming and very attractive young lady who now takes a good deal of my spare time... :angel:
Sayonara |
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| Circlotron |
| or, quantum phenomena meets the social dimension. ;) |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
As Oscar Wilde truly said, "Disobedience was man's Original Virtue." |
Nothing personal toward you Kuei Yang Wang, but that statement has got to be the biggest load of rubbish, the greatest lie I have ever read. How do you think human society began to degenerate into the useless load of **** it is today? Not doing what his creator required and therefore getting thrown out of his family. We are the descendendants of those who were disobedient who still bear the consequences. Oscar Wilde's statement is plain stupidity. I purposely avoid the use of the phrase " in my opinion". Again, nothing personal toward you Kuei Yang Wang. You are quite welcome to express your point of view here. |
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| planet10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
good old discordian Philosopher Bob Wilson gets a mention |
The Illuminati triology is a must read for anyone trying to get a handle on our world today. It is a 1,000 plus page attempt to get the reader to think on their own, to raise their intelligence (this word used in sense defined by T Leary -- IMO the 20th centuries most significant pyscologist). It is a brilliant satire.
The law of fives cannot be ignored.
The Schrodenger's Cat triology (which i consider an important companion to the above) is somewhat more concrete, in that is explores some solid liberatian ideals. In essence Wilson takes the 3 leading theories of Quantum Physics, and then writes the same story assumming that for that version a specific theorem is true. Not only does he paint a good story, but sheds some light on Quantum Physics.
I have spent some time with Wilson when he came up to the Islands to do some lectures. He stayed at a friend's house (and i did too) and we got to stay up into the evenings and talk. He is brilliant, and takes his role of cheerleader seriously (some may get the irony in that).
dave |
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| Equilibrium |
| The Universe (or this Forum, if you will) is a Mirror; if a Monkey peers into it, you can't expect an Apostle to peer out. |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
[snip]. How do you think human society began to degenerate into the useless load of **** it is today? [snip]. |
Circlotron, how come you think we are degenerated? Have you looked into the state of humanity in the (long) past? You remember Spanisch inquisition (not so long ago)? How the Romans treated people just a couple of 1000 years ago? Dzjengis Khan ravaging most of Eurasia and killing a sizeable fraction of the population? I can say with as much and probably more conviction than you that we are going forward, albeit excruciatingly slow. Call me an optimist.
Jan Didden |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
Nothing personal toward you Kuei Yang Wang, but that statement has got to be the biggest load of rubbish, the greatest lie I have ever read. |
Well, I was only QUOTING, statements quoted are not neccesarily supported unquestioning by those who quote. Before I deal with the theological implications however I would like to break a lance for disobedience. As with all things, what in one person is a virtue may in another be a vice.
In people like Martin Luther, Jan Hus, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington or closer to our time Mohandas ("Mahatma") Ghandi and Martin Luther King disobedience is quite a virtue.
And in his own quiet but determined way Jesus of Nazareth was disobedient. All they (the wordley powers in his day) wanted him to do was to shut up. When he did not they did.
Looking around myself, I feel that as long as Government by Man exists this government is injust and the more "Governenment" the more injustice and inequity is being comited. Thus DISOBEDIENCE is elevated from just a virtue to patriotic and civic DUTY, but that's just me.
Now for the Theological side.
| quote: |
How do you think human society began to degenerate into the useless load of **** it is today? Not doing what his creator required and therefore getting thrown out of his family. We are the descendendants of those who were disobedient who still bear the consequences.
|
When Jesus left there was the Churc of James and later John and that of Peter which was continued by Saul (later know as Paul) who was not one of Jesus original and direct diciples.
Once the Saulian/Paulian version of Peters (exotheric) Church became organised and stratified it started the way to becoming the "Whore who lies with all the Kings of the earth" by becoming the state church of rome. The esotheric church of James and John (and ultimatly Jesus himself - read the Gospel of Thomas) was quickly surpressed and adherence to it's original doctrines (thought by Jesus himself!) became a heresy.
The according to Jesus essential experience of God (gnosis) and self transformation (born again from the spirit) of a diciple was replaced by obedience in the literal sense and ritual, indeed another trade of the birthright as firstborn for a bowl of lentil soup and droppings of the tables of the powerful rulers of this world.
While reading the Bible in the most exotheric sense (literal) and following it in the same will make most people better people (the same can be said about the Torah, Quaballah, Al'Quoran, Baghvad Gita, Tao Teh King and others), the litmus test of any inspired scripture is applicability on the three levels (Exotheric literal, Exotheric Allegorical and Esotheric) and only by passing through the veil and attaining the meaning is adequate understanding possible.
But again, that's just me.
| quote: |
Oscar Wilde's statement is plain stupidity.
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I think even the creator himself has a somewhat more charitable view of Mr. Wilde, just as he has of all our flaws. I would also recommend that you pass through the veil and then re-read the book of genesis. Your understanding may be different then compared to now.
| quote: |
Again, nothing personal toward you Kuei Yang Wang.
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I did not take it personal, but rather as a statement of an ethical and religous personal viewpoint.
| quote: |
You are quite welcome to express your point of view here.
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ThanX, I appreciate this.
Sayonara, 93 (Agape) |
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| halojoy |
I have no patience to try and understand
all the interesting writings here.
But I also want to be a part of the action
so I post.
Hope you enjoy it? |
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| jean-paul |
| We obviously do as you were missed in your absence a while ago. Please continue, it may give food for thoughts about more important things than audio. |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by jean-paul
We obviously do as you were missed in your absence a while ago. Please continue, it may give food for thoughts about more important things than audio. |
Audio - what could be more important?
To Listen &
Use Your Heart
As Your Ear
maybe - maybe not
Love Will Remain
When all sounds have vanished into Silencium |
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| jean-paul |
Love&Understanding
Use your Ear
for your Heart
and your Soul
will Flourish. |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
As with all things, what in one person is a virtue may in another be a vice. |
If they subscribe to contradictory standards then that is so.
| quote: | | In people like Martin Luther, Jan Hus, Abraham Lincoln and George Washington or closer to our time Mohandas ("Mahatma") Ghandi and Martin Luther King disobedience is quite a virtue. |
I was meaning specifically disobedience to our creator.
| quote: | | Looking around myself, I feel that as long as Government by Man exists this government is injust and the more "Governenment" the more injustice and inequity is being comited. |
I agree. The Bible say that God will re-assert his rule at some point he determines most suitable. Rule by mankind will be forcibly removed by him forever. I can't wait for that day to happen.I think me may well see it in our lifetime. |
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| halojoy |
if someone
make a promise
we assume the promisemaker
to be capable of fullfill promise
I'll be back
many promises are empty words
will this one
be kept
or is it already |
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| janneman |
Circlotron wrote:
"I agree. The Bible say that God will re-assert his rule at some point he determines most suitable. Rule by mankind will be forcibly removed by him forever. I can't wait for that day to happen.I think me may well see it in our lifetime. "
Circlo, are you serious? What a sad way to wade through life!
Jan Didden |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by janneman
Circlotron, how come you think we are degenerated? Have you looked into the state of humanity in the (long) past? You remember Spanisch inquisition (not so long ago)? How the Romans treated people just a couple of 1000 years ago? Dzjengis Khan ravaging most of Eurasia and killing a sizeable fraction of the population? I can say with as much and probably more conviction than you that we are going forward, albeit excruciatingly slow. Call me an optimist.
Jan Didden |
The military, political and religious element is no better today than what it was then. Only that their spin doctors call it "defence".:rolleyes: What is going downhill most is the attitudes and morals of ordinary people. Those in seats of power for the most part hit rock bottom long ago. When you compare the idyllic situation of our first parents way back, and where they and their offspring would have progressed to today, in contrast to where we are nowadays, saddled as we are with old age, sickness and death and a stack of other manifestations of imperfection, we are indeed "miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked". Basically our lives are a one way trip to nowhere, a mere travesty of what they could have been if our human father had not gotten himself thrown out of God's family. |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by janneman
Circlotron wrote:
"I agree. The Bible say that God will re-assert his rule at some point he determines most suitable. Rule by mankind will be forcibly removed by him forever. I can't wait for that day to happen.I think we may well see it in our lifetime. "
Circlo, are you serious? What a sad way to wade through life!
Jan Didden |
Serious? Yep. Sad?? Are you kidding? What would you rather have? Politicians ruling over you as they do now, or the creator of the universe and all it's physical laws that make hifi possible, ruling over you. By "ruling" I don't mean it in the way that human rulers do, I mean it in a way that is fair and happy for all, with perfect mind and health and life just like humans were in the beginning. No human rulers involved, they simply don't have the ability. Imagine having all eternity to invent and construct and enjoy things and build stuff for your friends and simply have enough time to do all the things you ever wanted (upright, proper things that is) without the drudgery and slavery and frustration that fills our (including my) short lives now. That's what I am talking about. The kind of stuff churches fight tooth and nail to discredit and try and prevent you hearing about. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
A Cherokee elder is teaching his grandson about life.
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
"One wolf is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
"The other is wolf is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
"This same fight is going on inside you -- and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"
The old man replied, "The one you feed."
:confused:
It all began with an infinite light that filled all and left no room for a world to be. Then that light was withheld so the world might be created in the resulting void.
Then the world was created, with the purpose of returning to that original state of light--yet to remain a world.
:angel:
In the fabric of space and in the nature of matter, as in a great work of art, there is,written small, the artist's signature...
there is an intelligence that antedates the universe. (Carl Sagan)
:earth:
The Law of Fives, illustrated with a picture of five pebbles:
<PRE>
O
O O
O O
</PRE>
Do these 5 pebbles <i>really</i> form a pentagon?
Those biased by order would say yes. Those biased by the chaos
would say no. Criss-cross them and it is a star.
An illuminated Mind can see all of these, yet he does not insist that any one is really true, or that none at all is true. Stars, and pentagons, order and disorder are all his own creations and he may do with them as he wishes
:crackup: |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
A Cherokee elder is teaching his grandson about life.
"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.
"One wolf is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
"The other is wolf is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.
"This same fight is going on inside you -- and inside every other person, too."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"
The old man replied, "The one you feed."
:confused:
It all began with an infinite light that filled all and left no room for a world to be. Then that light was withheld so the world might be created in the resulting void.
Then the world was created, with the purpose of returning to that original state of light--yet to remain a world.
:angel:
In the fabric of space and in the nature of matter, as in a great work of art, there is,written small, the artist's signature...
there is an intelligence that antedates the universe. (Carl Sagan)
:earth:
The Law of Fives, illustrated with a picture of five pebbles:
<PRE>
O
O O
O O
</PRE>
Do these 5 pebbles <i>really</i> form a pentagon?
Those biased by order would say yes. Those biased by the chaos
would say no. Criss-cross them and it is a star.
An illuminated Mind can see all of these, yet he does not insist that any one is really true, or that none at all is true. Stars, and pentagons, order and disorder are all his own creations and he may do with them as he wishes
:crackup: |
very nice
it is not in my liking to impose someone my impressing
I only ask out in space: do someone see things my way?
so I could perhaps feel somewhat less alone |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
An illuminated Mind can see all of these, yet he does not insist that any one is really true, or that none at all is true. Stars, and pentagons, order and disorder are all his own creations and he may do with them as he wishes :crackup: |
Sounds to me like another way of saying their is no such thing as absolute truth, therefore just do as you please if it feels right to you and the majority don't object! If so then I respectfully disagree that this is the right course to follow. Just as surely as the laws of physics are set in concrete, figuratively speaking, so too are the moral laws of the one who created them, and for that matter created us to work well in conjunction with them. That is the only way to lasting happiness.
It's now 7 minutes past midnight. Time to go. Bye all. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
I agree. The Bible say that God will re-assert his rule at some point he determines most suitable. Rule by mankind will be forcibly removed by him forever. I can't wait for that day to happen.I think me may well see it in our lifetime.
|
This "in our lifetime" is dicey business. One might also argue that we may be transformermed (or transform ourselfves as Jesus thought) into a state where we can sensibly govern ourselves individually in such a way that we are in accord and harmony with the creator, our fellow men and the rest of the creation.
As to "the Bible says", this is a term to be used with care. The current Bible is a canon resulting from the selective exclusion of certain books in both Hebrew/Aramaic scripture and the predominantly Greek christian scripture. By "commitee" decision varios councils excluded certain books and included others.
Translations from the original languages where made into latain often with an either subconcious or concious translation of certain terms embodying ideas to conform with then current doctrin and often quite out of tune with the original meaning. The exclusion of such items as the gospel of (doubting) Thomas and a significant portion of the hebrew/aramaic scripture as well as the clear editorialising which is the root cause of many of the percieved contradictions in the Bible also warn against to simplistic and literal view. Yes, the larger body of the Bible as published today contains inspired writings but omits several crucial to the clear understanding of the mysteries.
I shall be content to work on my own transformation and to expect nothing of my creator, other than well meaning tolerance and forgiveness of my shortcomings of which I'm only too keenly aware.
Sayonara, 93 |
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| janneman |
Circlotron wrote (snipped):
"By "ruling" I don't mean it in the way that human rulers do, I mean it in a way that is fair and happy for all, with perfect mind and health and life just like humans were in the beginning. No human rulers involved, they simply don't have the ability. Imagine having all eternity to invent and construct and enjoy things and build stuff for your friends and simply have enough time to do all the things you ever wanted (upright, proper things that is) without the drudgery and slavery and frustration that fills our (including my) short lives now."
I think we have a fundamental different view of the world.
If you talk about "with perfect mind and health and life just like humans were in the beginning", do you mean, say, the average person in 11th century London dying from the pest and rotting in the streets at 34 years? Or do you mean our hunter ancestors trying to kill a bull Mammoth in freezing cold so that their children would live another few days until the next crisis?
If you talk about "having all eternity to invent and construct and enjoy things and build stuff for your friends and simply have enough time to do all the things you ever wanted ", do you think about a kind of heavenly lab with tubes that don't break down, batteries that go on forever and amps that never oscillate? What DO you image?
And by the way, "(upright, proper things that is)", according to whom? You ask me to exchange a world that is working, sort of, for a ruler who determines what is upright and proper. This sounds sooo familiar, I think I'll take my changes right here and now, working to spread some happiness in my immediate environment.
I like people to develop their capabilities and be the best they can, because that is what humans are all about. There may or may not be a God; if there is one, he has a lousy policy of first creating people so-called to his image, and then giving them tasks of which he must know half of them will fail. And don't get me started about his customer service personnell here on earth.
Jan Didden |
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| Peter Daniel |
So if it's supposed to be something completely different let me quote some texts by Vivekananda from Vedanta:
"Man is devine and all that we see around us is the outcome of that consciousness of the divine. Everything that is strong and good and powerful in human nature is the outcome of that divinity, and though potential in many, there is no difference between man and man essentially, all being alike devine. There is, as it were, an infinite ocean behind, and you and I are so many waves, coming out of that infinite ocean. And each one of us is trying his best to manifest that infinite outside. So, potentially, each one of us has that infinite ocean of Existance, Knowledge, and Bliss as our birthright, our real nature, and the difference betwen us is caused by the greater or lesser power to manifest that divinity. Therfore Vedanta lays down that each man should be treated, not as what he manifests, but as what he stands for. Each human being stands for the divine, and therefore every teacher should be helpful, not by condemning man, but by helping him to call forth the divinity that is within him.
The Advaita is the third and the most advanced school of Vedanta, and is regarded to be the fairest flower of philosophy and religon that any country in any age has produced, where human thought attains its highest expression and even goes beyond the mystery which seems to be impenetrable. This is the non-dualistic Vedanta. It is too abstruse, too elevated, to be the religion of the masses.
What does the Advaitist declare? He says: If there is a God, that God must be both the material and the efficient cause of the Universe. Not only is He the Creator, but He is also the created. He Himself is the universe.
How can that be? God, the pure, the Spirit, has become the universe? Yes-apparently so. That which all ignorant people see as universe does not really exist. What are you and I and all these thing we see? Mere self-hynotism. There is but one Existance, the Infinite, the Ever-blessed One. In that Existance we dream all these various dreams. It is the Atman, beyond all, the Infinite, beyond the known, beyond the knowable. In and through That we see the universe. It is the only reality. It is everything we see around, It is everything, minus the name and form. Take away the form, take away the name--what remains is the Atman. It is the name, the form, the body, which are material, and they make all the difference. If you take away these two differences of name and form, the universe is one. There are not two, but one everywhere. You and I are one.
What does Advaitist preach? He dethrones all the gods that ever existed or ever will exist in the universe, and place on that throne the Self of man, the Atman, higher than the sun and the moon, higher than the heavens, greater than his universe itself. No books, no scriptures, no science, can ever imagine the glory of the Self, which appears as man -- the most glorious God that ever was, the only God that ever existed, exists, or ever will exist. I am to worship, therefore, none but my Self. "Who can help me, the Infinite Being of the universe?" These are foolish dreams, hallucinations. Who ever helped anyone? None. Wherever you see a weak man, a dualist, weeping and wailing for help from somwhere above the skies, it is because he does not know that the skies are also in him. He wants help from the skies and the help comes. We see that it comes, but it comes from within himself, and he mistakes it as coming from without.
Thus man, after this vain search for various gods outside himself, completes the circle and comes back to the point from which he started -- the human soul. And he finds that the God he was searching for in hill and dale, whom he was seeking in every brook, in every temple, in churches and heavens, that God whom he was even imagining as sitting in heaven and ruling the world, is his own Self. I am He, and He is I. None but I was God, and this little 'I' never existed." ;)
And although it is only a quote, in big part are also my believes as well.:angel: |
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| pinkmouse |
| Nice quote Peter, and a reasonable philosophy for living if I ever saw it!:) |
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| janneman |
Circlotron wrote:
" When you compare the idyllic situation of our first parents way back, and where they and their offspring would have progressed to today, in contrast to where we are nowadays, saddled as we are with old age, sickness and death and a stack of other manifestations of imperfection, we are indeed "miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked".
Can I ask you, do you take literally the fable of paradise and the idyllic situation of first man and woman, created as the first humans? Are you a creationist rather than an evolutionist? If so, I understand you fully.
Jan Didden |
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| halojoy |
I am both creationist and darwinist
they both are needed for me to get a hang of the complete picture
that is not to say that someone else can not get it
to make sense in "his/hers" special way
until I get somewhat wiser
I have to use Creator+Darwin
not to go out of mind trying to comprehend |
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| planet10 |
Peter,
excellent quote... it is clear that this is at least one of the sources for a statement i try to live by "God is us in the future", which given the context it came in, is that within each man is the potential to become god-like, not in the sense of all-powerful, but in terms of realizing his human potential, and acting in the spirit that giving (love, charity, understanding, ...) is the only true path to fullfillment, that everything you give reaps many times its investment. The future part implies our personal future, that we have to work towards the goal (of which precious few ever reach), bettering ourselves along the way.
The human brain is a multi-billion cell neuro-computer that is programmed from the moment we are hatched out on this earth. Most people go thru life completely controlled by the programming that has been laid down in their brains -- they are essentially robots. Some few, and now that leisure time (as opposed to survival time) exits, more & more people are figuring this out and breaking free to program themselves.
My hope is that before we get to the end of the current phase of the current civilization, that enuff people have broken free from their inate programming and that technological progress has gotten us far enuff along that we can transcend what usually comes after the current stage of civilaization.
Every civilization thru time has gone thru 5-stages. Stage 5 is summed up in a single word by "beuracracy". The next stage is collapse & chaos.
BTW the book "Voyage to Yesteryear" (mentioned in my Friday the 13th announcement) is a story on this theme.
dave |
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| janneman |
I can recommend "The blind Watchmaker" or "Climbing Mount Improbable" by Richard Dawkins. The last book is fascinating and concerns itself with questions as to if and how something incredibly complex as a human eye could come into existence by the power of chance mutation alone. Not a book for creationists though. But it does help to make sense of a lot of baffling things in the world around us.
Jan Didden |
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| halojoy |
a
Kuei Yang Wang
person
to get things really going, at times |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by janneman
Circlotron wrote:
" When you compare the idyllic situation of our first parents way back, and where they and their offspring would have progressed to today, in contrast to where we are nowadays, saddled as we are with old age, sickness and death and a stack of other manifestations of imperfection, we are indeed "miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked".
Can I ask you, do you take literally the fable of paradise and the idyllic situation of first man and woman, created as the first humans? Are you a creationist rather than an evolutionist? If so, I understand you fully.
Jan Didden |
Neither. Not an evolutionist. Not a creationist who AFAIK will try and tell you that the earth and the rest of the universe was made in 6 or 7 days of 24 hours each. I don't think so. I believe the Bible account where it say "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth". After that had been accomplished the earth could have easily sat around for billions of years cooling down etc just like geologists tell us from the stuff they dig up. Then the earth was prepared for habitation in six defined periods of time referred to figuratively as "days", the length of which could easily have been many thousands of years. In fact according to that timetable the seventh day is still progressing now. I believe the account of the appearance of the first man and woman. What's impossible with that? |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
As to "the Bible says", this is a term to be used with care. The current Bible is a canon resulting from the selective exclusion of certain books in both Hebrew/Aramaic scripture and the predominantly Greek christian scripture. By "commitee" decision varios councils excluded certain books and included others. |
Well then, if the Bible really has been tampered with then it wouldn't really be a book that God organised because you wouldn't think that he could create the whole universe but be unable to keep a single written record on the straight and narrow. If he found it necessary to have certain things recorded for the benefit of those that would take the time to read it then do you think he would then allow it to get permanently corrupted? If it is not a book from him then it doesn't really matter.
Why would the Catholic Church during the previously mentioned Inquisitions go around killing people to prevent them reading it if it were only a book that some men wrote? It would have no real authority at all. Nowadays the churches realise that doing this kind of thing only makes honest hearted people even more eager to read what they are missing out on, so they just go about discrediting it instead. It's a case of "Well, it might have been pretty hot stuff back in those dim, dark days, but now we (clerics) really know where it's at. We are much smarter now than they ever were. You just leave it to us. Read it if you like but it's just old, obsolete stuff." |
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| Ryder |
| quote: | | Sounds to me like another way of saying their is no such thing as absolute truth, therefore just do as you please if it feels right to you and the majority don't object! |
a non sequitur
the fact there is not an absolute does not mean all distinctions are lost or all ways/judgments are equal. A large section of western thought and religion can be seen as a movement forward from opposites (absolutes), a dialectic... identity and the problem of opposites.
Life more resembles a paradox than an absolute truth. Which is one reason, I suppose, Christ spoke in parables and didn't leave us a neat short list. The lists were written by men with grave consequence. My problem with Christianity is that it has located God above and over instead of within one. Religious life congeals into externals and formalities.
Cheers
Craig Ryder |
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| halojoy |
out of my heart.
So a special Thread split
was made for me.
Instead of sending me into SIN BIN.
That is now My Church!
Here is a Vital piece of Poetry
which I use in my Life, as some pointer
to how I should try and Live.
:cool: :cool: :att'n: :att'n: God In Disguise!! :att'n: :att'n: :cool: :cool:
:angel: halojoy :angel:
the incarnation |
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| janneman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
Neither. Not an evolutionist. Not a creationist who AFAIK will try and tell you that the earth and the rest of the universe was made in 6 or 7 days of 24 hours each. I don't think so. I believe the Bible account where it say "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth". After that had been accomplished the earth could have easily sat around for billions of years cooling down etc just like geologists tell us from the stuff they dig up. Then the earth was prepared for habitation in six defined periods of time referred to figuratively as "days", the length of which could easily have been many thousands of years. In fact according to that timetable the seventh day is still progressing now. I believe the account of the appearance of the first man and woman. What's impossible with that? |
Not impossible at all. It makes a lot more sense to me than a pure creationist view. What I see different is the appearance of the first man and woman. Unless you adhere to creation here, it would be the outcome of a (gradual) evolutionary process, which in fact is still going on (western man getting taller and taller gradually). That brings me back to my earlier posts, that for me the situation of mankind has been a lot worse in the past than it is now, and not the reverse, that we come from a paradise situation and have been going downhill.
In the final analysis, I think whatever you believe (and I noted that you use "believe" often, as is your right), what counts is that you are true to your beliefs, accept the consequences and live by it to the best of your abilities.
Jan Diddern |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
Well then, if the Bible really has been tampered with then it wouldn't really be a book that God organised because you wouldn't think that he could create the whole universe but be unable to keep a single written record on the straight and narrow.
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I do not presume to know what the divine power can do and cannot nor what it intends. But if you read todays bible you read the result of a commitee deciding which books should be in the bible and which should not be, many books appear in todays printed bible consoderably different than they did in earlier manuscrips (especially the dead sea scrolls).
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If he found it necessary to have certain things recorded for the benefit of those that would take the time to read it then do you think he would then allow it to get permanently corrupted? If it is not a book from him then it doesn't really matter.
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This raises larger issues. I said before that the test for inspired (by the divine) writing is it's applicability on three levels, much of the Bible passes, but some books clearly do not pass, further a number of books excluded from the Bible pass the test. If one desires to turely know and understand a diligent study of not only the Bible but also of many other inspired wrtings becomes neccesary.
If a given writing is inspired by divine power does that mean it is a "message" from the divine? If so, can we justify the limitation of such writings and the act of choosing one inspired for inclusion in a canon but not another? Further, if the writing is in a language we do not speak, are translation still inspired writing?
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Why would the Catholic Church during the previously mentioned Inquisitions go around killing people to prevent them reading it if it were only a book that some men wrote?
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The Spanish inquisition (and that in other countries) was much less concerend with people reading the Bible but with heretics such as gnostics, people who where into folk magic, jews and the like.
Anyway, who expects the spanish inquisition?
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It would have no real authority at all.
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Does it have authority in itself, other than that authority that you ascribe to it based on your beliefes? Please note that I do not dispute the divine origin of most of the ORIGINAL biblical writings nor do I claim that is not invested with some authority, but it is far from this unfallable and unquestionable sole and complete work of comunicating divine wisdom to mankind you make it out to be.
Sayonara |
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| Circlotron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
[The Bible] is far from this unfallable and unquestionable sole and complete work of comunicating divine wisdom to mankind you make it out to be. |
I bet that's a relief to those who refuse to conform their lives to the direction and principles it contains. And often it's these kind of people that make the loudest claims that it is such.:rolleyes: |
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| rfbrw |
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
I bet that's a relief to those who refuse to conform their lives to the direction and principles it contains. And often it's these kind of people that make the loudest claims that it is such.:rolleyes: |
And what do you suppose the creator has in store for us non-conformists when he imposes direct rule ?
ray. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Hi,
| quote: | Originally posted by Circlotron
I bet that's a relief to those who refuse to conform their lives to the direction and principles it contains. And often it's these kind of people that make the loudest claims that it is such.:rolleyes: |
You BET? You don't seem to take the Bible a lot less serious than I do. I did not claim the principles in the Bible not to be applicable, I noted that the Bible MISSED crucial material that has been edited out. Remember the words Jesus said about the narrow mountain path.... Not only is it not easy to walk, it also not easy to find. But please continue to conform with the "moral majority" and suit yourself.
Jesus taught us how to transform ourselfs from common metal into gold, he taught us how to utilise and reach out full potential. But it takes diligent enquiry and work, not the following of pat phrases and claims of authenticity that are easily dispelled in the light.
Sayonara.
YHShVH Mihi Omnia
L.'.V.'.X.'. |
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| kelticwizard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Anyway, who expects the spanish inquisition?
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