| Zero One |
This is a follow up on my previous post, I thought I'd post it seperately as I think it might be helpful to a few folk trying to get good results for next to nothing.
I decided to try mounting the cartridge on my TT using cork pads between the headshell and cart, this actually made quite a difference despite the fact I was still using the conventional nuts and bolts.
I then tried just the cork with double sided tape, this worked even better, but the tape let go after 24hrs or so.
Then I tried just a piece of thin double sided foam tape, now this truly is an amazing tweak, way way beyond what I thought possible.
First of all the tape is very secure, no indication after 3 days of letting go at all. The difference in sound is incredible, surface noise is reduced to very very low levels and suddenly old LPs that were too worn to listen to are quite fine. You may think this would kill the resolution but it is quite the opposite, high frequencies are utterly beautiful and I can hear details that I have not heard before. This is simply the most stunning tweak I have ever tried.
Downsides...none I can think of, other than readjusting the VTA.
I am not sure why it works so well but I think it is that the dust and rubbish rests in the bottom of the grooves not the wall so much so the dust will tiend to force the needle upwards, the foam absorbs this impact. The sideways motion in the grooves is unimpeded as laterally the foam is still in both horizontal direction, however it probably has just enough give to soften lateral impacts from nicks etc in worn recordings.
It might sound too good to be true, but all I can say is if you are battling with old worn LPs try it, it also makes good ones sound better on my system anyway.
Next up armour-all. I tried this to get better results from worn LPs that were pretty trashed so I could make them good enough to transfer to digital for editing. Something funny happened on the way to the computer however! One of the LPs (Crime of the Century) found its way onto the turntable and got played several times, mainly because I really love the album. however I played three tracks many times and the others only once.
I noticed that each time a played the LP the needle picked up a black collection of dust and gunk on the needle. This was easily removed with a brush dipped in metho, nothing at all stuck to the stylus.
The really neat thing is that each time I played the record it sounded better and cleaner, probably because it was cleaner. Playing one of the tracks that had only been played once and comparing to those played several times showed this to be far more than imagination.
I'm no suggesting that armour-all is something to use as a general thing, there may be deficits I haven't yet come across but the results are more than a little interesting.
Hope it helps someone. |
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| Zero One |
just a little follow up, I armour-alled a crook disc this morning and then ran it for 4 times each side while I was working in the office just to see how many playings were needed to get ot sounding nice.
The first run totally clogged the stylus by the end of each side and filled the area around the stylus with black sooty fluff, the second picked up about half as much and the third a little bit, the fourth showed just the smallest build up, much less than normal playings.
This was done on a record that was already wet cleaned so I imagine a dirty one would create a real mess.
The sound after 4 passes is really very nice and vastly better than the untreated recording. |
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| es44 |
I'm getting a little curious now. I tried a Google-search on "Armour-all", and all i can find is auto care products or dresses:confused:
Do you have a link for the product you are using ? I'd like to try this on my old 60's records, that hasn't all been taken care off.:(
Best regards
Ebbe |
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| Zero One |
Ebbe your on the right track, it is an auto care product, so cheap as chips. I'd say one bottle would do a thousand LPs. Wash the records first in soapy water or similar, dont rinse, let them dry then use a micro fibre dusting cloth with a little armour-all on it and rub in circular motion.
Then play the LP a few times, cleaning the stylus between plays and finally sit back and listen. I promise the result is amazing.
Oh and make sure you give your turntable mat a good clean first.
You will end up with a slight oily looking film on the inside of your dust covers, doesn't matter just wipe the LP each time before you play it with a micro fibre dust cloth.
Try and post your findings.
All the best
Brad. |
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| es44 |
I don't know if we've got Armour-all as a brand in DK, but maybe other products will do :confused: I've got some Turtle polish in nano tecnology, but i'm not sure if i've got the nerve to try it out.
Maybe i should try and find an old German schlager record somewhere, that way it will be no loss if things go wrong :D
Thanks for all your great ( and cheap )ideas, some of them wil certainly be tried out over time.
All the best
Ebbe |
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| Zero One |
Hi Ebb
Armourall is not a wax it is a liquid protectant, mainly for vinyl, rubber and plastic surfaces, to protect it against UV and shine it up. It is about the consistency of water and has no colour.
Use sparingly and recoat later if you need more.
I think there are several similar products available. it is big here in OZ where sun damage of car interiors is a major issue.
Hope it helps. |
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| es44 |
Ok, i get it now. I'm sure i can dig up something similar as i've been working in car business for the last 37 years :D
Still i will find a couple of old records that's expendable, just in case ;)
Thanks a lot
Ebbe |
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| Zero One |
Yep Ebbe I would run with some old ones, the products you have may not be exactly the same.
You might like to try mounting the cart on the thin double sided foam tape too, this helps heaps with worn records (in my system anyway). You could always unstick it and bolt it up normally if it doesn't help. |
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| es44 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zero One
You might like to try mounting the cart on the thin double sided foam tape too, this helps heaps with worn records (in my system anyway). You could always unstick it and bolt it up normally if it doesn't help. |
That's one of the first of your tricks i'd go for, your thoughts sound quite convincing to me. And my stock of double sided tape is quite big, hehe. |
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| Zero One |
Thanks, let me know how it goes.
Brad. |
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| Zero One |
| Here is a pic of my cart mounted via this method. |
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| Triumph |
Zero one does it improve the amount off rumble?
I have used double sided foam tape between the two platters from my idler Zero 100s.
Works great! |
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| Zero One |
Hi Triumph
In my opinion it improves everything including rumble, i have now used it on a second modded TT with great results, interstingly a retired audio tech friend brought his Test records around last week to see how my system went, he was absolutely amazed at the sound and said when you really look at how Carts etc really work it makes perfect sense. I really respect this chap opinion as he is really a sound gear guru who made his living from fixing it building it and designing installations.
I reckon it would help on the idler drive, I intend to try it on a dual 1228 I have when I get time, it has great sound in many respects but is a rumble monster. |
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| Triumph |
I have tried it.
First with probably the same double sided foam your using but there was a lot off loss in the low region. No difference to detect at the region. No effect on the rumble (the was almost any rumble left so it is under control now, and that for an idle tt).
So sorry, loss at the bass. |
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| Triumph |
Second time I used a differend kind of double sided tape a more firm one you can at at the carstore for sticking strips at the side of the car.
I used with and without the screws on. Even with the mounting screws ther is some movement possible.
Better but still there was some loss in bass.
Something to do with the compliance of the cartridge? |
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| Stuey |
| I suppose any movement in the cart means less at the cantilever. |
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| Triumph |
| What I can imagine is that when you use a low compliance cartridge on a (too) light arm the foam can give improvement. Then it probably absorbs a part of the energy which the arm is not able to. |
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| Zero One |
Hi Triumph
Not real sure why you are losing bass, in my system the bass is actually stronger and tighter, and the cart I'm using needs a fairly heavy tracking weight, however the cart is very light.
Here are a few other things I have tweaked and noticed that might be helpful.
I did increase the tracking force a little bit and this did boost bass, which is normal anyway, I imagine this would apply to all carts.
Next adding the foam will change the VTA, this might have an effect, in my system, the cart normally needs a spacer so the foam just replaces this and leaves the VTA intact, a thinner matt on the platter would be another way to compensate if the VTA is not adjustable.
Overall the biggest improvement was in high frequency detail and clarity, I was not trying to lower rumble as I had that fixed elswhere, I imagine if the rumble is coming from through the platter mainly then the isolator probably wouldn't have a big effect, changing the platter mat to one made from non slip rubber matting will make a big difference in my experience.
One thing and it is probably not an issue for you at all but sometimes what is perceived as full and strong bass is actually the resonances created by the bass mixed in with the original signal, lots of speaker cabs do this and I imagine tone arms may have similar issues, with these resonances taken out of the mix the bass could sound weaker and less full, though in truth it is just more accurate to the original.
I have found through experience that bass is strongly degraded by even slight loseness in the horizontal bearing of the arm, and in fact I have added a weight on top of the arm support ring on my current TT to improve the matter as the bearing could not actually be tightened further, this made a huge improvement in tracking and bass.
Treble seem to be effected by poor mating of the counterweight to the arm, and in this case I used plumbers tape to improve the matter and also attached the rotating scale to the weight so it didn't chatter, this was very effectve for such a small tweak, bass also improved a bit but not as much as with the extra weight over the horizontal bearing.
I have also obtained improvements by putting blutak in the stylus holder so it sticks better to the cart itself, better bass is the main result here.
I have also used plumbers tape around the slide in interface for the cart in the arm, once again this can hepl bass if the jusction is prone to chattering or not optimally tight.
The tone arm is also wrapped with cloth tape and this did lower resonances somewhat, once again improving bass and inparticular the clarity of the bass.
Finally adding thin cork to the cart body can stop some resonances and give improvements in resolution and imaging (in my case anyway).
All of these mods and a few more have been used on my setup and to my ears it sound lovely even with LPs in less than pristine condition.
I hope some of this helps, of course it may be the tape is just no good for your set up but in my opnion there is a synergy between all these things and good sound so one thing in isolation will not give the total result you may be after.
The really neat thing is that all of the tweaks above will cost next to nothing so not much to lose.
I have attached a pic of the modded TT, it started out as an old pioneer p513X
All the best Triumph and lets keep those platters spinning. |
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| Zene Gillette |
| Sorry a little late on this one. Anyone using Armour All on records is nuts. It will eat any vinyl related substance. Call any auto detailer, they all will tell you how it destroys dashes and vinyl upholtery. Car stereo installers will not touch a dash that has been heavily treated with it. Try somthing real like 303 Protectorant (name close enough). Zene |
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| Zero One |
Hi Triumph
One thing I forgot to mention but its important, when you mount the cart on the foam, it is important that the foam goes all the way to the edge of the headshell, not just under the cart itself, this limits the fore/aft and sideways movement. Not sure if you did it this way and apologies for not making this clear before.
I imagine if the mount were only under the cart bass would be effected. |
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| Triumph |
I have done a lot off experimenting this week coming soon I hope on Help I am falling in love with an idler TT!
And I came to the conclusion I have to do a lot of work on the arm first before starting any other tweaks like the one described on this thread.
The arm I am using has very bad bearings and I have to do something on problem first.
| quote: | | I have found through experience that bass is strongly degraded by even slight loseness in the horizontal bearing of the arm |
So first this problem has to be solved If possible!!!!
Thanks Zero one for all your ideas. You may not think it from this post but you have given me some great thoughts for improvement. |
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| Zero One |
Glad to help, fixing the looseness in the horizontal bearing can be pain, most arms on cheaper TT are woeful in this area, but the better ones are usually adjusable, though it can be tricky to get to the bearing and sometimes even harder to actually get it tightened up nicely.
The weight I used over the top of the bearing made a huge difference but on a lot of tonearms it wouldn't be possible due to the design.
Overall the bearings in most arms are really flimsy and too small for stability, I have looked at modding one arm I have by replacing the whole horizontal bearing setup with the bearing and partial housing from a video cassette, I don't think it would ever give problems then. In this case the cables would be routed over the top of the arm rather thn through the centre of the bearing tube.
The vertical bearings are usually a little better and are normally easiy adjusted, the only problem is that once tight enough not to chatter in sympathy with the music they are often prone to binding in spots, which is a real problem.....once again it is due to poor quality bearings generally and this is pretty much impossible to fix on most arms.
I imagine if someone were to build or heavily modify a tone arm the bearings from floppy drives or even small hard drives could be used.... these are extremely high quality items, they have to be of course or they would fail very quickly in service.
Anyhow happy playing, just remember almost anything you can do to a TT will make a difference, ah the beauty of analogue! |
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