| Most impressive full range you've ever heard? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| MGH |
I still have dreams of the original Martin Logan CLS (not the succesive iteraterions). They still are the bench mark for transparency and beauty of speaker design. Sure it had it's flaws, but it's one of those speakers that you never forget - like your favorite super model.
Anyone have there favorite electrostat, DIY or otherwise? I've been eyeing the new Audiostatic DCM5 - another full range beauty on par with the CLS in aesthetics. Don't know how it sounds though. |
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| fcel |
| I like Apogee Stage. |
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| MGH |
| fcel, I owned the Apogee Stages also but they are not electrostats. But Apogees do come close to stats in transparency and have better bass. |
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| jirka |
What about Quad?
I like Manger and AER. |
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| JohanH |
Most impressive I´ve heard were the Audiostatic 900.
They are IIRC a total of 6 panels (3 on each side) of which 4 were the Audiostatic 300 and 2 of which I do not know the designation but they were for the low frequencies only.
Incredible life like sound with pinpoint imaging.
It felt like you would be able to stand up and walk in between the musicians.
Cheers,
Johan |
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| jirka |
Do you know Audiostatic DCM5 ?
Can the electrostatic with large excursion sound excellent? |
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| JohanH |
| quote: | Originally posted by jirka
Do you know Audiostatic DCM5 ?
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I haven´t listened to the DCM, but have liked all Audiostatics I have listened to.
Correct me if I´m wrong but the DCM is probably in essence not that much different from the later ES series.
Johan |
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| JohanH |
PS.
I prefer Audiostatic over Manger anytime. |
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| Daveis |
| Apogee Centaur Major |
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| moray james |
| single element full range loudspeaker driver 0r fullrange as in wide band multi driver loudspeaker systems? Regards moray James. |
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| Bare |
Serious Question??
has NOT yet been built... Regardless of Bleatings to the contrary. There is ALWAYS some glaring Fault.
Suggest a decent set of Headphones.. It's as close as yer Honestly gonna get :-) |
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| mrshow4u |
| quote: | | Suggest a decent set of Headphones.. It's as close as yer Honestly gonna get :-) |
Nice tangent. If we include phones (small panels) Stax Lambda's They're either unreal, or too real. It's hard to say |
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| rcavictim |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohanH
Incredible life like sound with pinpoint imaging.
It felt like you would be able to stand up and walk in between the musicians.
Cheers,
Johan |
That is exactly the illusion I get from my own Ultor TM design when I stand and walk around the area in front of and between them. Closing my eyes and facing my back to the speakers as I move completes the illusion because it reinforces the realism. It is like you have just approached the stage and the space between the musicians has opened up, the bass player is over there, the sax player is to your immediate right, the singer is in front of you, drums are in the back. |
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| Capaciti |
Hi,
in comparison to CLS and the quads the audiostatics suffer from the smaller width of the baffle. As a result the acoustic shortcut starts at higher frequencies leading to less efficiency at lower frequencies.
They try compensate by appropriate means but physics cant be ignored. The frequency response of the audiostatic shows a dip between 100 and 250Hz.Thus they sound clear but imo too anemic in this range. Music lives from energy basically in this frequency range.
What for good has been a ES 900, if the smaller ones are perfect ? I listened to the ES 900 and that was near to perfect. But it has 3 times membrane area and three times the baffle width.
What am i saying?
A ESL-fullrange makes sense, BUT it needs very large membrane area and baffle width. Anything else is a compromise. Some might accept it.
Capaciti |
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| MJ Dijkstra |
Hi,
Audiostatic made several kind of esls. Some types were fitted with a mirror drive. This circuit ( an extra transformer was used) acts like an equalizer with caused the voltage of the stator to increase with lower frequences. The audiostatics with mirrordrive (RS-series) are quite well balanced. Not perfect, but better than the audiostatics without mirror drive, like the new (!) DCM5 or the old ES100 full range ESLs.
Don't know which type exactly we are talking about, but I liked the ES200RS.
The ES200RS and the Martin Logan CLS1 are one of the best full range I've heard. |
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| MGH |
The DCM5 does have mirror drive (see their website) and total of 8 mm excursion. How does an electrostat have such high excursion without efficiency dipping below 80dB? Although their website seem to imply it can play loud, go deep, and be driven by 50 watts, I doubt it.
I agree the original CLS is one of the best sounding full range, and the most beautiful speaker ever designed IMO. However, the it was prone to failure and ate amps for breakfast.
The new steel framed Quads look promising. |
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| MJ Dijkstra |
You're right about the DCM5; it has mirror drive, must have confused it with some other type (dcm4?).
Like many other full range esls, the specs are on the optimistic site regarding efficiency. I wouldn't expect it being more than 80 dB/ Watt in real life, no matter what is claimed. |
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| EdwinR3 |
For me the most impressive full range i've heard was a Beveridge with subwoofers (somewere in the late 70')
Audiostatics specs indicate an excursion of 8 mm. For me it is not clear if they mean a spacer thickness of 4 mm on each side of the membrane (so total of 8 mm) or spacers of 8 mm (total of 16 mm) which seems very large. With a spacer of 4 mm seems it should be possible to retain a reasonable efficienty, provided that a higher HV-supply is used and sufficient step-up is used.
Does anyone know the exact spacer thickness ?
Regards,
Edwin |
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| Gasho |
For me , the most impressive fullrangers are Grado RS1 headphones.
After that is Manger driver + Volt or ATC driver based sub.
After that is Tannoy "golden monitor" driver in horn enclosure. Ok this is two way but is point source. |
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| jirka |
MJ Dijkstra
No electronic equalisation can remove baffle step problem and this also holds true for the Audiostatic.
I agree that the ideal loudspeaker is small point making all frequencies, but it is not possible, so real loudspeaker must be large to not have baffle step problem in the lowest midrange
or it must be Manger Zerobox or similar design
or it must be omnipolar. |
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| jirka |
Gasho
Do you have Manger and some sub with Volt or ATC professional driver? |
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| hozo |
Genesis 1.1
Sheer power coupled with the finesse of a ribbon midrange and circular "ribbon" tweeter. A marriage of everything I cherrish.
-Punches like a dynamic
-line source
-sweet ribbon midrange
-effortless bass |
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| MGH |
| Anyone here have heard the big Sound Lab electrostats? There new PX series looks interesting, but they're huge! I always wonder how speakers this big can manage to image well. |
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| jirka |
The bigger the speakers, the worse the pin-point imaging.
or
The bigger the speakers the more realistic imaging, but from bigger distance. |
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| JinMTVT |
what is up about MANGER drivers..
some say that it is one of the best driver available
while others say that it is not that good ...
i can see a trend where people that actually own
( or have listened to ) a manger driver are more on the positive performance side
( but that could be related to the ownin' )
I looked at the manger drivers a while back,
and it still intrigues myself!
we all know the benefits of a single driver for coherency
and the bottom end can always be filled with any up performance woofer
If we take a look at some of the pictures used on the manger website, such as this one :
this looks like a really nicewave pattern to me
it was said ( i read it here ) that some regular drivers might also disperse in this way at some frequencies?
what about ESL ?
a quick question , when the pattern looks like on the HF from the picture, does one driver emit wave from a wider area ?
doesn't that affect HF performance?
i am still quite amazed with this technology,
and i might consider using a pair of the manger
for my personal room ...
would it be suited to OB design ?
any problem with the use of a dipole system with this driver?? |
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| jirka |
I think only Quad is near to this nice pattern (if we consider electrostatics).
You can listen to the Manger from extremely short distance. You can nearly put the ear to the distance of 14 cm and the sound is coherent (close your eyes and see the musicians as a dwarfs). It is better than with coaxial loudspeaker. It has no practical use, I am writing it only to express that it is not easy to say which point of membrane radiates high frequencies and which not. Of course high frequencies are radiated from the central membrane, of course HF are radiated from the 70 mm diameter, of course HF are radiated from the outer membrane.
When I take a board with a small hole and move the board through the diameter of the membrane, I can clearly hear that the highest frequencies are radiated only from the central part of the central membrane and are not audible from the voice coil.
Manger will perform perfectly in large baffle. It is an ideal stage. You can read about it on manger website and it is true. The only alternative is Zerobox virtual infinite baffle.
Manger dont recomend using their drivers fullrange but it works nice. Manger dont recomend using their drivers as a dipol but it works nice.
The sound from the back side of MSW is deteriorated by some noise due to the physical dimensions of the motor drive. There is some problem about maybe 3 kHz but if you use larger open baffle and some acoustic adaptation of room (on the back wall), the sound is excellent.
Some say the bigger the baffle the better. I think there is no reason to use bigger baffle than 55 cm in diameter for 200Hz or 80 cm in diameter for 150Hz. It is the same as with Oris front horns of BD-design.
If the baffle is smaller there may be bigger problem with bass integration. I like the sound of MSW in open baffle of 35 cm in diameter very much, but it is not perfect.
MSW is not the smoothest driver. It is the smoothest highend fullrange driver. Some minor problems of frequency response can be taken out by DEQX. It is not necessary but it may be very interesting.
The real drawback of MSW is not its higher harmonic distortion or limited sound pressure to 110dB. It is only the directivity of high frequencies.
Three listeners can enjoy Manger speakers. The HF rolloff is not as with some other directional drivers like horns. Subjectively the highs are audible from all angles only the air is missing. |
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| aerius |
| quote: | Originally posted by Daveis
Apogee Centaur Major |
Years ago I heard a pair of Centaurs in a stereo shop, and I remember thinking "man these things are sweet".
A few years later I heard the Scintilla which was just incredible, it remains the best full range I've ever heard. Unfortunately it doesn't get along too well with amplifiers to say the least... |
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| nate |
There have been a few votes for quads already, but here is my emphatic vote that any of the iterations (57, 63, 988, 988 or the new ones) are some of the best on the planet. I've heard plenty of really expensive and incredible speakers and there is still something very unique and special to the quad sound that all others lack.
Nate |
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| Coffee |
4jirka
I´m not feelling the high frequency dispersion problems of a manger driver as a problem ,but the high harmonic distortion if runing fullrange,leads to a kind of quite big nasality of its sound,that I really dislike,it makes the sound sounds quite dull in the mid band.
But with a high pass or as a dipole It´s o.k. and probably the best. |
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| auplater |
| quote: | Originally posted by rcavictim
That is exactly the illusion I get from my own Ultor TM design when I stand and walk around the area in front of and between them. Closing my eyes and facing my back to the speakers as I move completes the illusion because it reinforces the realism. It is like you have just approached the stage and the space between the musicians has opened up, the bass player is over there, the sax player is to your immediate right, the singer is in front of you, drums are in the back. |
Geez... seems I've heard this sort of description of imaging b4
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...2400#post642400
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...threadid=83206:)
John L. |
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| jirka |
Coffee
Hi, I agree with you, for best results Manger should work above 200Hz and with sharp filter.
The dispersion of the highs is absolutely no problem if the Manger Holoprofile sound deflector is used. You can use DIY sound deflector made for example from wood. Everything which has to be done is to cover the opposite points of the voice coil or better the opposite points of the membrane. After that the dispersion of the highs is excellent to that extent what the 1inch dome can do. |
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| JinMTVT |
i got a bit informed
and i can't seem to find Mangers for anything less than 2000$CAD * pair ( ~ 1800$ USD )
i find that quite expensive,
even more if i remember that i was quoted 600$USD/drivers a few years back
Do you guys think that Mangers are worth that much ?
i could get a LOT of Excel series for that money!!!
plannig my next move,
is MANGER a go or not ? worth it ? |
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| hilbren |
I've listen to a pair of quad 989's but i can not say it sounds good. I don't know what it it is but there's somethings missing...
i still have to listen to one of these mangers... |
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| jirka |
Synergy must be superb.
About Seas Excel I can say this:
I made two way W18EX001 and T25CF002 Millennium. Excellent speaker for this price and size. Directly compared to fullrange Manger, there is more bass and lower harmonic distortion in Excel, but the realism is lower.
My friend said this: "With the Manger my ears are empty and my brain is full of music. With the two way I dont understand the texture so good". |
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| MGH |
"Synergy must be superb."
-And then some...
The build quality seems to far exceed the original Apogees, but I'm still can't believe the price. |
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| bwaslo |
Not quite a "full range", but as of yesterday the most impressive I've heard is a BG RD50 planar magnetic (psuedo ribbon) equalized with an FBQ2496. Doesn't do bass really (at least not very loudly), but wow.
The driver normally rolls off pretty much above 12kHz and has a dip around 8kHz. But the equalizer takes care of that quite well (I used to be a "no equalizers" snob, but now am over that!). The overall presentation is 'of a whole cloth' and the narrow dipoles sound almost the same anywhere in the room. |
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| auplater |
| quote: | Originally posted by bwaslo
Not quite a "full range", but as of yesterday the most impressive I've heard is a BG RD50 planar magnetic (psuedo ribbon) equalized with an FBQ2496. Doesn't do bass really (at least not very loudly), but wow.
The driver normally rolls off pretty much above 12kHz and has a dip around 8kHz. But the equalizer takes care of that quite well (I used to be a "no equalizers" snob, but now am over that!). The overall presentation is 'of a whole cloth' and the narrow dipoles sound almost the same anywhere in the room. |
Check out the thread references in my post#30 above... DIY BG 75's...
John L. |
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| Daveis |
I've got some BG RD-40's and while I like the sound quite a bit. They give me a taste of the Apogee Centaur Major's I loved so long ago. I've augmented the top end from 10khz up with a T25CF002 Millennium tweeter. I've played with bringing the tweeter in as low as 2500 hz. And to my ears, the RD40 can hang with the Millenium upto 10khz. People who like a more conventional 2-way sound would like them with the tweeter crossed in at 2500-4khz.
A question for the BG RD owners. Is the RD50 and RD75 really better than the RD40? Can you run them lower? I kind of expect a longer ribbon to actually perform WORSE and beam more in the higher frequencies. But I suppose dipole you get more of that line-array thing with them taller.
I read that Apogee is coming back, but that their speakers are silly expensive... eg. $25K USD.
Still nothing including the BG RD's touches a real ribbon.
Does anyone make them anymore for a reasonable price?
Also, does anyone consider the Maggie 3.6 to be anywhere near the best of the Apogee's? Seems to me that I like the Centaur Major better than the Maggie 1.2, 1.6 and 3.6.
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| auplater |
| quote: | Originally posted by Daveis
I've got some BG RD-40's and while I like the sound quite a bit. They give me a taste of the Apogee Centaur Major's I loved so long ago. I've augmented the top end from 10khz up with a T25CF002 Millennium tweeter. I've played with bringing the tweeter in as low as 2500 hz. And to my ears, the RD40 can hang with the Millenium upto 10khz. People who like a more conventional 2-way sound would like them with the tweeter crossed in at 2500-4khz.
A question for the BG RD owners. Is the RD50 and RD75 really better than the RD40? Can you run them lower? I kind of expect a longer ribbon to actually perform WORSE and beam more in the higher frequencies. But I suppose dipole you get more of that line-array thing with them taller.
I read that Apogee is coming back, but that their speakers are silly expensive... eg. $25K USD.
Still nothing including the BG RD's touches a real ribbon.
Does anyone make them anymore for a reasonable price?
Also, does anyone consider the Maggie 3.6 to be anywhere near the best of the Apogee's? Seems to me that I like the Centaur Major better than the Maggie 1.2, 1.6 and 3.6.
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My opinion is the line array type response (1/R) and increased power handling is what I was after... and I wasn't disapointed. Beaming doesn't seem to be a problem with my setup... in fact, the speakers have an "air" throughout the house that isn't apparent with regular speakers.
As for true ribbons, ... well... I guess if cost - no - object design is the goal... maybe.... but you'd be hard pressed to beat the sound of these at 10 x what they cost me to build.
As always... ymmv
JL |
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| ABJensen |
Lokely my own diy ribbon is the most impressive (all most) full range i´ve heard :blush: .
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| Reilumeininki |
Wow!Can we get more information about that?Pictures,pictures...:smash:
About that graph.Is it measured listening axis at listening place? I mean,what kind of a situation this measurement is done? |
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| ABJensen |
There is not more too show. The ribbon is made with two curves so it can move. it is 150 cm long and 2 cm wide, the aluminium is
0.004 mm bounded to very thin paper.
the measurment was made with Tact 2.2 on axis at a distance of 2 meters. and with no filter |
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| jirka |
ABJensen
Excellent result, this must sound superb. What about the imaging? I did not like the line source imaging of Aurum Cantus ribbons and it is very short line source. This long ribbon is another story. Can you compare the sound with something regular? |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | the measurment was made with Tact 2.2 on axis at a distance of 2 meters. |
The result doesn't look good - it looks excellent !!!! :cool:
Regards
Charles |
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| Daveis |
| Are the cross bars magnets? I'm not sure where the magnets are in the picture. Maybe a diagram of the construction? |
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| ticovski |
This looks excellent!
Would you like to share plans? |
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| JinMTVT |
also really interested into more details of this nice ribbon project of yours :)
could you at least share more performance iformation ? |
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| auplater |
| quote: | Originally posted by ABJensen
Lokely my own diy ribbon is the most impressive (all most) full range i´ve heard :blush: .
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any measurement of power handling? What ref. level did you plot at?
thnx. |
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| ABJensen |
jirka I belive that the problem with normal ribbons is that they
got sharp egde. I have placed the ribbon at the front and that improve imaging.
Davies no that is not magnets, but iron crossbars that i coated with nickel.
The neodymiummagnets is just beneath the crossbars. From the front you can see iron with nickel and again the magnets are below.
Auplater I admit that the signal level was low. But they can play a lot louder fullrange than a normal open ribbon. I crossover at 200hz 48 db. too this modifid scan speak.
It was made by the now late mr. Steen Duelund.
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/files/duelund/duelund.html |
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| Charcoal |
| Also intersted to know if private ordering is possible. |
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| bentoronto |
Although partly DIY, I hope this is helpful:
Curved and braced sheets of 24 inches wide x 42 inches high plywood and installed 6 Dayton-Wright cells in each. Driven directly by Sanders-type high voltage amp with 2400 volt B+ and high voltage bias adding to B+. Klipshorn for bass below 140 Hz, at 24 dB/8ave.
Why do I think it was the best sound I ever had anywhere: no box, no gas, no absorbent, no playing through plastic sheets, no grill cloth, no transformers, enormous resistances throughout, large dipole baffle, nearly full range (definitely no tweeter needed... mostly because no transformers needed), high voltage (made possible by the excellent cells).
The main credit should go to Mike Wright's panels with their comprehensively sound design concepts and physical solidity. Quad speakers look like stuff made in a home garage next to Dayton-Wright construction. Secondary credit to direct drive amp.
Only shortcomings, aside from gladly accepted risk for electrocution, is some tweeter beaming; but kind of more theoretical than audible. (Just how does your ear happen to know that beaming is occurring?)
I still have these big panels sitting around although, here to fore loath to sell due to fond memories. I also have a trunk of second-hand D-W panels of uncertain quality. A single panel is quite super as a tweeter.
And fair to add, DIY has a lot of advantages as far as subjective judgment goes. But, I think it is also the case that your ears come to "understand" a room and so you come to hear better in it. This happens over minutes and also days. When demo'ing, be sure to play some general purpose stuff for 20 minutes, before starting to play critical-listening stuff. You read it here first! |
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| Mitch Alsup |
I had the original CLSs (circa 1983-4), then upgraded to 2-Zs (circa 1996). There are many qualities that the originals had that the 2Zs do not. However the 2Zs are usefully louder. In my case, the CLS 1s were toast as the interior stator wiring had come lose from their adhesive inside the curved plates. Both pannels and boxes were upgraded.
Earlier this spring, I added a Velodyne DD-15 to the system, and after getting the pair balanced (2 hours) I have a very rich, deep, and satisfiing soundstage with just a hint of beaming. Its quite amazing how much better the whole system is after you remove the low end from the panels and thus limit the excursions thereof.
Now the above has to be taken with a grain of salt because I moved in the same time period and the new sound room is 17' wide by 11' tall by 53' deep (with few disturbances along the walls.) |
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