| filholder |
| You've never heard of the chip or freescale? |
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| BWRX |
Yes, Freescale is not new, but their entry into class d is.
Digital feedback? C'mon, that's almost as bad as the class T claim.
Still looks intersting though. |
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| classd4sure |
Nah, the class T claim is probably worse. This monster actually sounds like it "might" be digital in some..arguable way.
"As seen in Figure 2 below, the FSA95601 controller feedback system compares the output of the switching power stage with an internally generated ideal PWM signal for the corresponding channel to identify errors. The resulting error is converted into the digital domain by an A/D converter. Compensation for the digitized error component is mixed with the original PWM signal to make any necessary corrections for timing or amplitude errors.
Figure 2. High-Performance Digital Feedback
Freescale’s 4 Symphony™ Class D Digital Amplifier Solution Freescale Semiconductor"
Who knows, might be interesting for a cheap mid-fi PC theater thing |
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| theAnonymous1 |
One mans trash is another mans treasure!:D
Or, to put it another way.... One accomplished class-d amp builders trash is another not so accomplished class-d enthusiasts treasure.:smash: |
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| BWRX |
Well in that diagram they're taking feedback pre-output filter which is analog, subtracting it from their ideal "digital" PWM signal, then running that through an A/D converter.
Why would you need to run a digital signal through an ADC?
It may sound really good but that doesn't mean their marketing department can get away scot free :smash: |
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| classd4sure |
| To quantize the error for some retarded reason? Beats me.... like I said it's arguable :) Either way I think it sucks. Hence the mid-fi at best.. I like the connectivity options though. |
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| IVX |
| BTW, it's similar to Bruno's US6803816 B2 |
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| panomaniac |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
Well in that diagram they're taking feedback pre-output filter which is analog, subtracting it from their ideal "digital" PWM signal, then running that through an A/D converter. |
I'm missing something there, too. :scratch: Is there something wrong/missing in that diagram, or do I just not see it? |
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| BWRX |
They're basically using the terms digital and switch-mode interchangeably. Their "ideal digital PWM signal" is not digital but analog. The ideal PWM signal is generated from the processed PCM signal, and will have error depending on how many bits are used in the conversion.
The diagram in Fig 2 is a little different than the one in Fig 1 which shows how the signal is really routed. Fig 2 is misleading because the digital PWM correction stage does not directly drive the output stage. Rather, it is fed back to the PWM generator. |
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| classd4sure |
Brian, I concede... they're of course full of it.
I threw the link up this morning without really having read it at all :xeye:
What's amusing to me is that they keep mentioning patented feedback .... where's the patent #?
Anyway, very little different than the usual "true digital" junk. |
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| BWRX |
| Thanks for posting the link to it. It's interesting to see what else is out there, and it's hard to keep up with everything. Their marketing dept. is definitely full of it, but it could still sound good. The interesting part is that the signal processing chip and the output stage are on separate chips, and you probably don't have to use one with the other. If their signal processing stage is good you could possibly make a discrete output stage or pair it with a driver from another manufacturer. |
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| classd4sure |
Yah, and thanks for keeping me on my toes, I was most asleep. :)
Might be interesting to try their output stage on its own too.. little headphone amp or something ?
Say's samples are available now anyway.
Cheers |
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| FastEddy |
Freescale used to make the Apple processor chips and other ASICs (based on IBM's Power PC chip and iterations). Freestyle is a "fabless" ASIC / Processor design house = they don't actually own any chip manufacturing facilities.
Freescale's entry into consumer electronics could be a boon to Class D and DIY fun and games. They have the cash and clout to eat any of the amp Class-D competition ... but will probably be buying someone's previous work or a whole company as they are in a hurry ... like buying TriPath licenses or the whole shebang. (but don't buy Tripath stock on my say so = pure speculation.)
One thing Freescale will probably do is introduce complete Class-D system ASICs like Class-D processor/controllers wth integrated digital pre-amp processor and analog I/O all on a single chip. Whether Freescale does more than just follow Apple's lead into "home entertainment" will be debated here, there and everywhere until the end of this year. My guess is that Freestyle will produce complete feature rich chips that, "as a coincidence", have multichannel Class-D controllers built in ... and the first of these will appear later this year or at CES in January. (Apple is almost ready to make the Mac "the core of the media center", the center of a full bore "home entertainment" system including display, computer with internet interface, component amps, etc. Look for Apple to have Class-D pre-amp / amp combos that are totally under MacBook / Mini Mac / OSX / GUI control = all functions including the usual bass, treble plus multiple types of equalizers, source switching, internet radio, wifi interface to remote storage sources, etc. ... with the iTunes & Front Row menu interface ... everything except smell-i-vision ... and that means that Harmon Kardon is going to have a new line of speakers that are patterned after the current Apple do dads ... and M-Audio (Avid) will zoom up in popularity for their FireWire DACs, and with pro musicians, etc. ... :bigeyes: )
A Freestyle / Apple multimedia / consumer hardware consortium was planned very early last year (post CES, 2005) based on Steve Jobs ideas about where he wanted Apple to go and just before Al Gore formally joined Apple's Board ... the whole bunch of 'em are seriously trying to capture the multimedia markets ... including audio. (Now that Google henchmen are on the Board, too ... well, they've got the cash & savy & smarts to do it ... there will be an iPod with an optical audio port announced before Christmas ... there will be an Apple hardware interface to a bunch of satellite Class-D amps (20 to 100 watts each) released this coming spring ... and several new Apple displays (with Internet/cable/HDTV and set top boxes) including a 16x9 LCD display of the 50 " variety ... wireless audio control interfaces using Bluetooth for control of remote audio components ...
I see this as a boon to DIY'ers ... Anyway, I sure would like to tweak those cute transparent Harmon Kardon speaker boxs ... and someone will get rich and/or famous from high performance mods of Freestyle / Apple Class-D amps.
:) |
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| FastEddy |
... the FireWire interface as speaker cable .... Class-D self powered speaker boxes on a FireWire daisy chain ... each amp/speaker having its own FireWire address, packet switching bandwidth >> greater than 10 channel x 24 bit x 192k (something that USB can't do). This already works in the studios ...
:smash: |
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| Jaka Racman |
| quote: | | What's amusing to me is that they keep mentioning patented feedback .... where's the patent #? |
List of patents |
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| koolkid731 |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
... the FireWire interface as speaker cable .... Class-D self powered speaker boxes on a FireWire daisy chain ... each amp/speaker having its own FireWire address, packet switching bandwidth >> greater than 10 channel x 24 bit x 192k (something that USB can't do). This already works in the studios ...
:smash: |
Fast Eddy, knowing Steve Jobs's love for secrecy, I wonder how you could possibly know those details.
If you worked for Apple, you can count your days there! |
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| classd4sure |
Just sounds to me like he's got a good working knowledge of what's already out there and can put 2 and 2 together.
I kind of doubt steve jobs would be the one to push audio to that level though. I think we've already seen his best effort in that respect with the ipod and the umm cheaply designed class d amp dock unit they sell for it. Looks expensive, elegant, built for next to nothing, high profit margin low quality audio, compliments of apple. They're too into gadgets to ever get serious. |
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| fokker |
I have no doubt that digital home entertainment is the future. The importance of iPod isn't in playing portable music. It's importance is in iTunes functioning as a distribution channel for digital content: audio, video, book, etc.
For that to work, they got to have a device sits at your home and manage all the flow of content.
With the huge installed base of iPod, Apple is uniquely positioned to do just that. |
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| classd4sure |
Hmmmmmm don't you think they shot themselves in the foot with the level of quality available in either format?
Not to mention the cost of Itunes is excessive! As is the Ipod. A dollar a song is more than CD's cost.
"For that to work, they got to have a device sits at your home and manage all the flow of content."
That's already here, in the form of your typical home computer!
There will soon be a website where music can be downloaded for free after you sit through forced advertisements, this is also a wrong approach in my view, but closer to what people will want. Maybe if I could watch a movie for free I'd sit through a "preview" or two but not for an MP3 of low quality and with limited options. |
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| fokker |
what is good quality depends on its intended uses. The popularity of mp3 suggests that the market, not you or me, have accepted its quality for its intended uses. And also there is a substantial market for low-quality goods, aka Wal-Mart, or Ford/GM, etc.
most people are still challenged by your average PC. What they need is a digital "gateway" that can store and stream digital content, data, voice, audio, video and anything else. This allows other digital devices on the home network to work and to be commanded by the gateway, aka. the firewire-connected speakers. we are moving towards that, slowly.
iTunes is a very interesting business model as it, if designed and marketed properly, has the potential to completely destroy the existing content distribution model. the foundamental bottleneck in iTunes is that the supply of the digital content is centralized, aka the 1-to-N model.
One project I am working on is an authenticated N-to-N model (essentially a P2P with centralized authentication). This will allow fast distribution of digital content, and with the built-in ability to make it a marketplace where users can publish and market their work over the network (aka eBay). |
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| classd4sure |
At the same time I know alot of people who do use a home PC that would never bother with the likes of an Ipod.
I think the popularity of it is due to the portability of it, over anything else. All it has replaced is the typical "walkman", for which it is in competition with any mp3 player.
No, people do enjoy some measure of quality, especially for home theatre, the ipod and its' "dock" will not make a big dent in that market, where a typical home PC + powered speaker set is probably already far superior.
" authenticated N-to-N model (essentially a P2P with centralized authentication)."
Maybe you can sell that to music/video companies as they're starting to look at this sort of thing more seriously, but I personally feel, P2P is already here to stay, we don't want to pay low quality versions with limited user rights either, which is something they don't seem willing to do away with.
Already better options are available to us, no authentication required, no cost, no limited rights. They'd have to offer a better deal to get looked at seriously.
Anyway, is Napster not already an example of this? |
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| koolkid731 |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Hmmmmmm don't you think they shot themselves in the foot with the level of quality available in either format?
There will soon be a website where music can be downloaded for free after you sit through forced advertisements, this is also a wrong approach in my view, but closer to what people will want. Maybe if I could watch a movie for free I'd sit through a "preview" or two but not for an MP3 of low quality and with limited options. |
To project one's inclination into the mass consumer behavior is chancey. Typically there're all kinds of tastes and pocketbooks. Business people usually bet that one of them is more profitable. Today technologies allow any implementation. The risk is on guessing the market. |
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| classd4sure |
"Today technologies allow any implementation"
That's kind of where I'm going with this. There's one thing you don't have to guess as far as the market goes. We want high quality content, reasonably cheap, preferably free, and we want the ability to do with it as we please.
Ipod, others, all want to standardize the industry to their proprietary formats with limited user rights and expect us to pay dearly for it. The problem with that is exactly what you said, and why they're doomed to fail.
As I've found yesterday, even purchased DVD movies have commercials on them now! Bet the ones I grab for free don't. They're far too behind in the game, too little, too late. |
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| greggp |
Well, we hope to provide a product that offers high quality audio playback from a PC.
Our product is a combination of a custom soundcard with FireWire interface and class D amp modules. Our prototype is currently using the Hypex UcD400s and UcD180s in a multichannel design. We are working on the next phase, which is the development of the working prototype with a more advanced soundcard/analog signal section and will also probably swap out the linear supplies for SMPS, in addition to any appropriate enhancements or alternatives to the amp modules.
Anyhow, we hope to provide a higher quality option as an alternative to the type of product that someone like Apple might offer. We feel there is a market for high quality PC based audio. Not as large as the market for Apple's iPod, etc., but maybe a nice niche. Currently there are a few outlets for high quality audio tracks. Check out MusicGiants and Magnatune for starters.
For more information feel free to check out our blog. Any feedback is appreciated. |
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| classd4sure |
Nice shameless plug that. Total posts 10, shameless plug 1. Poor ratio.
By "we" you mean "you" and by "our" you mean "my", right? Or, this not a one man op.?
Anyway, there is obviously a market for high quality pc based audio, but throwing modules into the computer is not it IMO.
Cheers,
Chris |
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| greggp |
Yeah, sorry for the shameless plug... and I agree the ratio is not good.
But it seemed like an appropriate place to mention that there are other companies developing products for higher-end PC based audio.
BTW, we are not planning to throw amp modules into a PC. The amp modules, combined with the soundcard will be housed in a separate enclosure with a FireWire (and possibly USB) connection to the PC.
And.. it's not just me, but I'm the most public/vocal of the group. No, we are actually a huge multinational corporation with thousands of employees hell bent on world domination. ;) |
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| JohnAtwood |
FastEddy said that Freescale Semiconductor is a fabless design house. This isn't true. Freescale is the "high-tech" part of Motorola's semiconductor line that was spun-out. (On Semiconductor was the "low-tech" part of Motorola's semiconductors). Freescale still has a lot of fab capacity. From their web site:
"Freescale has design, research and development (R&D), manufacturing or sales operations in more than 30 countries. We have seven wholly-owned wafer fabs, two assembly and test sites and a 300-millimeter pilot line and R&D center in Crolles, France, jointly owned with STMicroelectronics and Philips. Freescale invests $1 billion annually in R&D and has 5,500 patent families."
Interestingly, ON Semiconductor also has some class-D products - but positioned more in a way to sell their power MOSFETs.
Now TriPath - that's a fabless design house!
- John |
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| pmkap |
| quote: | Originally posted by koolkid731
.......
To project one's inclination into the mass consumer behavior is chancey. Typically there're all kinds of tastes and pocketbooks. Business people usually bet that one of them is more profitable. Today technologies allow any implementation. The risk is on guessing the market. |
A truly sage comment. Obviously spoken by someone who has been there, done that..... and hopefully gotten out with their pockets full of cash. The NuForce amps are a perfect example, truly mediocre (thats not of criticism of your work Tranh, you didn't control the implementation), but obviously are what the market demands. |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
At the same time I know alot of people who do use a home PC that would never bother with the likes of an Ipod. |
and there will always be a market for people like that, just like there will always be a market for Ferraris and Maseratis and the like.
However, the market has spoken loud and clear that the "low-quality" formats like mp3 are quality-enough for the mass. And that is the market a lot of people are chasing after. Just as the meat of the automotive markets are in the Fords, GMs and Toyotas.
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Maybe you can sell that to music/video companies as they're starting to look at this sort of thing more seriously |
the interesting thing is that it is exactly the studios, not the distribution companies, are very afraid of this, from a rights management point of view. They are extremely concerned about having their properties out there in a digital format that sooner or later will be cracked, not matter how "secured" the encryption is. No one has been able to solve that problem so far.
Ironically, the studios are the biggest beneficiary of such a new business model.
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Already better options are available to us, no authentication required, no cost, no limited rights. |
It is very difficult to have a business model where the content can be distributed without some sort of rights management or meaningful marginal costs. no one has been able to figure out a way so far. And I think it is in the collective good of the consumers and content owners to have rights management and to respect the IP rights. |
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| classd4sure |
| quote: | | However, the market has spoken loud and clear that the "low-quality" formats like mp3 are quality-enough for the mass. |
MP3 can be fairly decent at high bitrate.
Here's an interesting discussion on the topic that about sums it all up:
http://www.tweakhound.com/itunes/fandq.htm
Max bitrate available at Itunes however seems to be 128kbs. Would you be willing to pay a dollar a song (inevitably more... just a matter of time!) which is far more than you'd pay for it on CD considering the reduced overhead and lesser content with limited options.
Personally I listen to alot of MP3's on my high end system, with a decent bitrate, such that is unavailable at Itunes, which I consider to be a total rip off business model.
All the same, I wouldnt' make the mistake of equating Itunes with what's acceptable by the masses in terms of quality enough. I'd hypothesize it's perhaps more the illusion of greater choice (just picking what you want), ease of purchase (online shopping), melded with the existent and already huge portable market. By using their proprietary format on itunes they've created a monopoly, for the time being at least.
So why doesn't everyone run around with much cheaper portable mp3 players.... well, the majority aren't geek enough to know what bitrate is, where to get them readily at a high bitrate, don't grasp the concept of the client software needed to get it, and it's the same most likely less than resourceful people who are more readily programmed into wanting the next supposed best gimmick by mass marketing campaigns like the ipod has obviously enjoyed. Having it cost them 300 or 600 only makes them want it more. It's the typical snakebit unto the uneducated, ever so popular in audio.
Most often high bitrate MP3 is OK enough also, only when you consider that the original mastering quality is pure junk.... who needs that on DVD?
I think it would be completely stupid to model a distribution system on Itunes success based on the supposed acceptance of low quality audio. If and when better quality material comes along with the same sort of benefits people enjoy, they'll want it instead, once it becomes obvious to them at least.
Still, there exists one website for a long time now where you can select format/bitrate and pay a very reasonable price. The distribution companies don't like that one, I read of them attempting to sue them /shut em down just last week.
I don't recall seeing any studios suing p2p users either, btw, it is wholly the distribution companies who stand to lose everything as a direct result of their consistant greed, and is that not who owns the studios to begin with?
BTW, when it comes to quality, obviously that ipod/dock thing is a huge flop, so it's the content distribution at reasonable cost people are after, and I do think they would prefer higher quality all around.
For you to equate a high quality format with that of a rather exclusive car, I can already tell I"ll never be authenticating on your very expensive p2p system. Also what I meant when I said they'd never bother with the likes of an Ipod, is because there's a good majority that aren't gadget inclined. My aunt for example has all her audio ripped to her hard drive, she won an Ipod at work over two years ago.... it's still in the box, unused to this day.
Cheers |
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| fokker |
many music players failed before iPod and may more will continue to fail after iPod, because they focused on the wrong thing: technical performance.
What iPod/iTunes have done exceptional well is to find a compromise between performance ("low-quality" but good enough) and ease of use.
The significance of that business model isn't if the songs are encoded in XXXbps or YYYbps, it is that it is a distribution system of desirable content with a large user base.
to the system, it is just distributing bits and it is upto the system operators / content owners to decide what the bits are and how they are to be distributed to whom.
It is quite likely the whole iPod/iTunes will be far more valuable than the rest of Apple's business: recent transactions have placed the value of such distribution systems to about $10 per active user in low-income locales. |
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| phn |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
many music players failed before iPod and may more will continue to fail after iPod, because they focused on the wrong thing: technical performance.
What iPod/iTunes have done exceptional well is to find a compromise between performance ("low-quality" but good enough) and ease of use.
The significance of that business model isn't if the songs are encoded in XXXbps or YYYbps, it is that it is a distribution system of desirable content with a large user base.
to the system, it is just distributing bits and it is upto the system operators / content owners to decide what the bits are and how they are to be distributed to whom.
It is quite likely the whole iPod/iTunes will be far more valuable than the rest of Apple's business: recent transactions have placed the value of such distribution systems to about $10 per active user in low-income locales. |
I have posted this quote elsewhere. It's from the March 1999 issue of Networker Magazine. I withhold the author's name in order to not embarass him further.
"The question remains though, whether AOL can overcome the reputation as a consumer-oriented business. This will determine whether Case's hopes for penetrating the e-commerce market will succeed. The Sun phase of the deal may be enough to reassure the hardcore techies who worry about what a consumer outfit like AOL might do to the technically oriented Netscape operation."
How wrong can a man be!? This is the reason SUN, Netscape and Linux will never amount to anything to 95 pct of the world's population. Those clowns are still stuck in the 1970s when you needed to be an engineer in order to operate a computer.
Apple gives the users what they want. Usability.
Ask the kids what they want, a new cell phone, iPod or PC. The PC doesn't even rate. The PC's too 1990s for them to bother.
In 1997 (I believe) Bill Gates didn't think the Internet would ever amount to much. Well, it's 2006 and we now live in the post-PC age. 5 yrs from now the PC will only be used for specialized tasks, like running Spice or JBuilder. Which means most people will never use it. There won't even be a PC as we know it. Then computers will be for the engineers, like they should be. Everybody else will use gadgets with computers hidden or embedded--ubiquitous computing--that SUPPORT the user. |
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| classd4sure |
| Once again it's not the success of Ipod but of Itunes... so let's sit back and see how it plays out, my money's on the table, well no, but I guess yours is. |
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| phn |
I think iTunes has problem with the EU. At least the French have blocked it (or try to), saying it prevents competition.
I'm not sticking by iTunes. Who's going to be the winner I don't know. In fact, I use "iPod" and "iTunes" like general terms. I don't know what's out there.
I'm with the old gard. They will have to pry my PC from my cold, dead hands. At least that's how I feel now. |
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| classd4sure |
:D hear hear
Good point about itunes etc in France and such too. I also am not familiar with other players out there, but I'm fairly certain Itunes is unique amongst them so far. I'd be willing to bet Samsung's player will end their monopoly of portability land.
Cheers |
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| greggp |
How successful is iTunes when compared to peer-to-peer filesharing; or, when compared to actual CD sales? Isn't it still a small percentage? The big debates over the past few years have been trying to determine if filesharing has had a negative impact on CD sales. CD sales have gone down and the record companies blame illegal file sharing, but some studies have shown that it could also be due to other factors. Have the sales generated through iTunes helped offset the losses...?
Apple's iTunes may be the most visible and the most successful legal download service, but it still doesn't account for the majority of tracks that people load on their iPods. I don't know the stats, but I think I read that the majority of iPod owners still use MP3s.
The iPod has become popular, while other portable players failed, because of Apple's more effective marketing and advertising and because the iPod was a better designed product. From 1998-2002, I worked for Sonic Foundry and was the PM for a product called Siren Jukebox. We supported file transfer to portable players, just like MusicMatch, Real Jukebox, etc., did at the time. To insure compatibility, we purchased or were lent almost every MP3 player that was out there. None of them were well designed, elegant, easy to use players. They all suffered from too little storage, poor battery performance and slow transfer speeds. The manufacturers knew this, but didn't do anything to improve the players. When asked, they responded that the parent companies didn't want to invest in a lot of product development and marketing because the market was not there. So it was pretty easy for Apple to come in and steal it away. Apple basically made their market. In fact, I wonder if the sales of Creative's Zen portables have increased because of the greater product awareness due to the iPods popularity. Most people don't know that there were portable MP3 players before the iPod. My children and their friends generically refer to all portable players as iPods.
I would like to see Apple come out with a preamp/amp using Freescale's technology. I think it would be a step toward getting iTunes users to listen to music with higher quality sound over speakers instead of their earbuds. Once they get a taste of that, maybe they will want something better. Then they may appreciate the quality of sound they will get from the type of amps based on the technology from Lars, Hypex or Coldamp, etc. |
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| FastEddy |
koolkid731: " ... Fast Eddy, knowing Steve Jobs's love for secrecy, I wonder how you could possibly know those details. If you worked for Apple, you can count your days there! ..."
Oh, my .... well, anyone who follows the Apple Corp with eager anticipation of the next insainely great thing should be able to likewise make those and similar predictions.
Apple makes large flat screen monitors ... soon bigger and better.
Apple keeps enhancing the iPod .... soon more diverse models with real fat audio pipelines (also Apple invented FireWire, before there was a 1394 spec.).
Apple is running away from the herd with the iTunes GUI front end and the Apple music publishing methodology .... a logical addition would be better quality reproduction equipment, especially if these can be sold at a profit. (Incidently, I like profits myself. Creativity is rewarded by profits.)
Freestyle has been making chips for Apple for quite a while ... Apple probably gave them a challange = make this insainly great new audio thingy that whips butt all across the board ... and we will buy more of your chips ... again.
As for me, I don't get my paycheck from Apple ... but I do get business and make money because of Apple's efforts ... and have for about 25 years ... and ... and ... :bigeyes:
(I've been called on the carpet before about my predictions re: Apple coming attractions ... :D ... and I've been told alternately to keep it up and to cut it out ... sometimes at the same time ! ... they usually forgive snd forget ... usually ... :hot: ) |
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| classd4sure |
| quote: | | The big debates over the past few years have been trying to determine if filesharing has had a negative impact on CD sales. CD sales have gone down and the record companies blame illegal file sharing, but some studies have shown that it could also be due to other factors. |
Harvard's study on the matter has shown the claims of declined sales made by the record companies to be erroneous. The record companies claimed them to be in error... who do you find to be more believable??????
In fact if I recall correctly Harvard's study demonstrated how illegal downloads have helped boost cd sales, which is probably why they're dabling in the market now, by offering single downloads of low quality and limited rights at greater cost than ever before.
They fight it of course simply because they're the only one's who stand to lose by a free distribution system, since they're third party all the way with the sole purpose of emptying everyone's pockets. It's amusing to watch the struggle progress... especially with them suing their customers in an effort to terrorize them into staying with their parasitic business model... reminds me of stockholm syndrome in some way.
This has gone way off topic but, it's been a good discussion. |
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| koolkid731 |
@Fast Eddy> Granted iPod is a great marketing success. There're just so many suckers out there. I for one have never been impressed by Apple's products, never bought one but did use McIntosh for editing in parallel with PC for engineering, at work.
One thing I do learn is you can't stop progress. Eventually gadgets will get better, insanely better, and majority of people go for cheaper products for a given quality. Thus Samsung may be the next iPod-type winner. Maybe some of us should design a high-end decking center for Samsung MP3. |
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| classd4sure |
Sounds like samsung has the exact right idea to me.
Anyway as a small PS to my prior post in this thread, I also recall reading stastics that have shown record sales have in fact increased and not gone down as the industry has claimed. |
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| fokker |
Samsung seems to have understood one critical element of iPod's success: software. Lots of usability issues with early-day portables are software related. iTunes addressed that, eluoquently and effectively.
The hardware performance really is a non-issue: just look at how much iPod sucks as a music player vs. its popularity.
They are also smart in lunching this first outside of the US.
On the other hand, I am not convinced that it is a plus to have those crappy speakers built into the player: Samsung should observe how people use those types of devices. |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Anyway as a small PS to my prior post in this thread, I also recall reading stastics that have shown record sales have in fact increased and not gone down as the industry has claimed. |
my experience and my anecdot observation seem to suggest otherwise. I was an avid CD buyer until about 10 years ago. I used to buy one or two CDs a week, and I buy about 1 or two CDs a year now. and that is true among co-workers and supported by the demise of record stores as well.
The problem with CDs, and why Apple's pricing is quite effective, is that you usually buy a CD for a song or two on that CD. yet you pay like $10 - 20 a CD. With iTunes, you spend $1 or $2 for those songs that you like and don't have to buy the rest. Kind like the use of digital cameras vs. film cameras where you can selectively print out digital photos which on a per print basis is more expensive.
file sharing / downloading may be a plus for adults who have the means to afford a CD after they have tried and liked the downloads. Unfortunately, they aren't as avid CD buyers as the youngsters who are likely to just download. Thus the decline in CD sales. I would also venture to guess that the average age of CD buyers has gone up as well.
One puzzle that I don't quite understand is that legal downloading of songs offered by colleges isn't widely accepted by college students. There are various theories on that but I haven't found them to be convincing. |
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| koolkid731 |
"On the other hand, I am not convinced that it is a plus to have those crappy speakers built into the player: Samsung should observe how people use those types of devices."
Of course no tiny speaker can do justice to music, but Samsung's idea is sharing. There'll be plenty of suckers for that, plus that's good for background music listening - I won't put buds into my ears, not even high-end headphone.
At work I have a 51-CD changer for "background" music, plus for obvious reasons good amplifiers and preamp. Even 51 CDs become too familiar after a while. Therefore I may try out the Samsung gadget for more variety. Or change the 51 CDs every week. Or use my PC as music server. The latter may not be a good idea as I use PC (latest high speed dual core CPU) for number crunching such as SPICE. |
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| FastEddy |
fokker: " ... Samsung seems to have understood one critical element of iPod's success: software. Lots of usability issues with early-day portables are software related. iTunes addressed that, eluoquently and effectively. ..."
FYI: Samsung makes a very large percentage of Apple's displays (monitors ... & soon HDTVs).
This means that (as in the past) if Samsung wants to marjket something similar to whatever Apple is doing, they do it with Apple's blessing and, often, Apple engineering assistance. My guess is that Samsung may actually be licensing a GIU (software) from Apple, or an Apple developed equivelent. That way Samsung a) gets an iPod matching product to market in Asia & elsewhere, b) gets preceived as a competitor with a comparable product ...
... and Apple gets a) some royalties, b) some "captive" competition, c) a foothold and/or leapfrog over the other competition, d) a cross compatible platform to bounce new ideas off of, e) a market test vehicle beyond the iPod ... === a win / win for both companies and a win / win / win for those who would rather buy something other than the mainstream (MS windows) ...
;)
....
classd4sure: " ... Harvard's study on the matter has shown the claims of declined sales made by the record companies to be erroneous. The record companies claimed them to be in error... who do you find to be more believable?????? ..."
The keywords here are type of music / content (sic - genre ?) ... anyway, the sales of quality recorded music is on the increase ... the bubble gum / teenie bop / rap / hip hop types = not.
Interesting aside = the flight to quality is ongoing and ever present. The quality of equipment driven by leading edge methodologies (like DIY and high end components) continues to get better and better ... even legacy equipment designs are improving = tubes, etc.
... and costs continue to fall comparatively ... really great audio equipment like what we have in the warehouse stores was not available 10, 20 years ago ... same applies to lots of other areas of technology = better and better.
The flight to quality has been around, arguably, forever, but certainly since WWII ... all metal airplanes, FM radio, 20 year warranty washing machines, dish washers, basic automotive transport ... cheaper, better, faster, quieter ... often for the same inflation adjusted dollars ... sometimes less.
:) |
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| FastEddy |
| ... except for, maybe, government ... :( |
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| classd4sure |
hahhaha, well government does include education...
Some good posting on your part :) |
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| FastEddy |
... hardly a good example = g'ment education costs more, delivers less as the decades go by ....
:( |
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| classd4sure |
| Exactly why it's a perfect example to go with gov. , no advancement there at all. |
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| sx881663 |
Sorry guys,
I have to totally disagree on this. It is a question of perspective, if you are in the power structure and are trying to dumb down the population so they can be controlled easier then tremendous progress has been made!
Think about the last time you had a fast food person actually count change, really sad.
Roger |
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| FastEddy |
" ... if you are in the power structure and are trying to dumb down the population so they can be controlled easier then tremendous progress has been made! ..."
... Since my degree in Physics from a small California state run collage has not landed any jobs in the field, does that mean I have to pay back my student loans?
;) |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Think about the last time you had a fast food person actually count change, really sad.
Roger |
but why would you care? and if you do, how much more are you willing to pay for a cashier who counts changes at a fast food place? Would someone be willing to hire such a cashier in return for the amount you are willing to pay for him?
The point is that no one can push his or her preference onto the mass / mkt. If the market doesn't support your preference (for a cashier who can count, for example), you have two choices: a) accept it and move on; or b) you support it personally.
In your case, if you care about having a cashier that can count, go to your local fast food joint, and offer to pay the franchisee enough so that s/he is willing to hire such a cashier.
If you aren't willing to support your preference yourself, you probably should not blame others for not willing to support your preference. |
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| FastEddy |
... concerned about the general quality of life.
" ... why would you care? and if you do, how much more are you willing to pay for a cashier who counts changes at a fast food place? Would someone be willing to hire such a cashier in return for the amount you are willing to pay for him? ..."
Increasing Quality might = fast food with a cashier with the ability to make chnge ... or at least intellegent enough to refill the paper towels and potty paper when needed.
Increasing Quality might = a Class-D amp with better audio characturistics ... at the same costs.
(And Increasing Quality might = a college graduate who could spell.)
:rolleyes:
My point being that all the technologies seem to be getting better, faster, quieter, lower cost, etc., ... except possibly the service industry = fokker's suggestions about fast food workers being but one area. |
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| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
The point is that no one can push his or her preference onto the mass / mkt. |
You've heard of Bill Gates, right? What happens when someone's product becomes so widely used and depended upon that you eventually have to accept whatever changes are made to the product based on the creator's preferences?
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
(And Increasing Quality might = a college graduate who could spell.) |
I would like to add proper grammar and punctuation to that list ;) |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
You've heard of Bill Gates, right? What happens when someone's product becomes so widely used and depended upon that you eventually have to accept whatever changes are made to the product based on the creator's preferences? |
it is true that some people don't like certain aspects of MS' products, or their business model. That is natural, healthy and to be expected. No product can satisfy all the people.
However, i have not found a rejection of MS products by the market. I hope to draw you attention to the difference between the market's acceptance of a product and some people's rejection of that product. |
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| FastEddy |
... I'm trying to remember how this got on a politics tangent ... Oh, yeah, now I remember ... Al Gore sits on the board at Apple and Apple is supposedly not buying FreeStyle processor chips, so FreeStyle is now entering the Class-D amplifier market ... or something like that.
Anyone actually seen the FreeStyle designs / circuit diagrams / eval boards / distortion specs ... ? (other than from their publicity announcements.)
:confused: |
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| sx881663 |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
but why would you care? and if you do, how much more are you willing to pay for a cashier who counts changes at a fast food place? Would someone be willing to hire such a cashier in return for the amount you are willing to pay for him?
The point is that no one can push his or her preference onto the mass / mkt. If the market doesn't support your preference (for a cashier who can count, for example), you have two choices: a) accept it and move on; or b) you support it personally.
In your case, if you care about having a cashier that can count, go to your local fast food joint, and offer to pay the franchisee enough so that s/he is willing to hire such a cashier.
If you aren't willing to support your preference yourself, you probably should not blame others for not willing to support your preference. |
I really didn’t want to get into this or even respond but this does need an answer.
Point 1) Why would I need to pay more? We already are spending far too much for educational systems that aren’t working. I can’t believe you really think a system that fails to provide the most basic skills needed in society is OK!
Point 2) Pushing your ideas and preferences into the mass markets is called advertising! The less educated your target markets are the easier your job. Most ads are at grade school level and must be working as the stuff sells and the companies prosper.
Point 3) Point has already been made, we have already paid and paid!
Point 4) Totally different deal! I am supporting it and not getting what I paid for!
I don’t see how any one can object to higher, ie. reasonable, levels of education. It makes communication so much easier when both sides understand each other. With the tremendous disparity we have now even putting in a fast food order and trying to get what you want is a challenge. To my mind this is not acceptable! We are getting ripped off. When I was in school if you didn’t learn you were failed and needed to take it over. Peer pressure assured your trying as well as some corporal punishment if you misbehaved. There wasn’t even a psychologist on call let alone resident. Funny how well that worked!
Roger
Edit) Sorry about the off track discussion but this is important to most of us. |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Funny how well that worked!
Roger |
so you don't need a cashier who can count, and you are not willing to pay for a cashier who can count. then why did you complain about a cashier who cannot count?
did I miss anything? |
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| classd4sure |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
so you don't need a cashier who can count, and you are not willing to pay for a cashier who can count. then why did you complain about a cashier who cannot count?
did I miss anything? |
You don't think Mcpukes makes enough money selling their gutt rott to train individuals with anything other than a series of beeps and symbols?
He's not the owner of the store who hired the brainless employee for brainwashing, so it's not up to him to pay more for them to get basic experience.
"The point is that no one can push his or her preference onto the mass / mkt. If the market doesn't support your preference"
Get real man. It's done all the time via commercial brainwashing. What do you think, windows made it so huge because it was good? Reliable? Robust? Well rounded? Secure?
Windows brainswashes new PC users much like Mcpukes does to employees, series of beeps and symbols, keeps sthem oblivious to how it really works, or the true capabilies a computer has. So what happens to the vast majority of them when they click on a symbol and don't get the expected beep.... their entire world crashes down, to the point they have to hire someone to fix it or pay some help desk ... where all can do is read off a checklist, not actually being allowed to think for themselves or paid for their own skillset. Anyone who's above that may be considered a hacker, a diy'r, an engineer... we're not in the majority.
You get brainwashed just by opening your eyes, going outside, turning on the TV or radio, surfing the web.. you're told what you want and how you want it, your subconscious hears and often obeys, this has sculpted our vision of reality, religion, government..and produced vast fortunes for those who use it to their benefit. The majority of the population is oblivious to this.
Advertising doesn't just sell pop and chips, it sells politicians, wars, religions. Are you looking forward to blueray... yet?
Irrespective of other aspects Ipod made it huge largely because of the advertising they did, telling people what they wanted, needed, imposing their views/products /services on you.
Samsung will stand a good chance to share in their market simply because they're also smart enough to launch a mass advertising campaign, and if they didn't, no matter how good the product, nobody would give a damn for it.
"The point is that no one can push his or her preference onto the mass / mkt. If the market doesn't support your preference (for a cashier who can count, for example), you have two choices: a) accept it and move on; or b) you support it personally."
Explain Nuforce's success.
So I obviously disagree with that. Also, should the rest of the world accept some inferior product as the de facto standard... you're going to get dragged along with it. Windows..... VHS, power transmission that needs lines, cabon based fuel vehicles...
Don't be so blind to how things really work. |
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| SpittinLLama |
It's iPod not Ipod, get it right man. ;)
Too much generalization. I never had an iPod until the university had a deal to get one basically free with a new laptop that I was buying anyway. So then I tried it out and I was sold. There are many like this and word of mouth can be a big factor. Granted, word of mouth is another force (peer pressure type) but it is not direct advertising by the producer. Hard to say how many bought them because they were looking for a good mp3 player and how many bought (or asked parents to buy) because everyone else has one so they 'needed' one too.
-SL |
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| classd4sure |
| Goes to show how effective indirect advertising can be ;) |
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| BWRX |
| The iPod made it big for a bunch of reasons. One is obviously because it can allow you to put your whole music collection in the palm of your hand and take it anywhere. Plus, it sounds good with high bitrate files (contrary to those of you who say it sounds crappy). It's not meant to rival your high end home audio system in terms of quality, but is surprisingly good and is visually appealing as well. Basically, apple got it right, and many people seem to agree. |
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| FastEddy |
" ... Plus, it sounds good with high bitrate files (contrary to those of you who say it sounds crappy). ..."
... especially last years model iPods with the FireWire ports = very fast transfers of large files like 24 bit / 96k wav, etc.
Garbage in = garbage out, unless you put the good stuff in, you won't get the good stuff out ...
I know several musicians who lay down high rez 24 bit x 96k tracks directly into their computers, then xfer to iPods, then take 'em into the studio for the final mix = transport = sneaker ware as opposed to Ethernet 'netware :cool:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_...phile-main.html >>> to http://www.apple.com/imac/ >>> to http://www.apple.com/ipod/ipod.html >>> to the streets ... |
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| fokker |
| quote: | Originally posted by classd4sure
Windows..... VHS, power transmission that needs lines, cabon based fuel vehicles... |
I think I have made this point earlier that technical superiority really doesn't make or break a product. There are many facets to a product, as the market is diverse enough. and technical performance is just one of many such attributes on which the product is judged.
So it is not surprising that some technically superior products died in the market place as they were judged inferior in their totality, in spite of their excellence in one or two areas.
Conversely, technically inferior products may offer other superior attributes that consumers want and that make them excel in the market place. You just listed a few good examples of such. |
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| fokker |
another way to look at it, more often than not, we don't buy the highest performing computers, or the fastest cars, or lest distorting amplifiers, etc.
We purposely buy low-performance things because they tend to offer a good balance of performance and other attributes that best satisfy our needs: affordable prices, good customer interface, better services, ease of maintenance, compact size, better looks, etc.
Performance usually is just one of many elements that go into our decision making. |
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| classd4sure |
That's an interesting point.
I'm not rich so I get what's affordable and tweak the living hell out of it... did it with a trans am when I had one, do it with computers, do it with stereo's.... :) Worst disease ever, sure learn alot though.
When I get it to the point where performance surpasses something of much greater expense, I'm content. |
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| fokker |
I was just puzzled by the need for a cashier to count when there is no practical need for him/her to count.
Why would anyone want that, first of all?
2ndly, hiring a cashier who can count vs. one that doesn't certainly is going to cost the store owner money. And that money has to come from the customers. If the customers demand a cashier who can count but aren't willing to pay for such a cashier, what does it say about the customers?
Stepping back from this, why don't we insist on having a cashier with a PhD degrees in computer science? or a carpenter who has landed on the moon? or a cook who runs a Fortune 500 company?
I guess what exactly is the rationale to demand a cashier who can count? what utility does one derive from knowing that his or her cashier can count? |
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| classd4sure |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
I was just puzzled by the need for a cashier to count when there is no practical need for him/her to count.
Why would anyone want that, first of all?
2ndly, hiring a cashier who can count vs. one that doesn't certainly is going to cost the store owner money. And that money has to come from the customers. If the customers demand a cashier who can count but aren't willing to pay for such a cashier, what does it say about the customers?
Stepping back from this, why don't we insist on having a cashier with a PhD degrees in computer science? or a carpenter who has landed on the moon? or a cook who runs a Fortune 500 company?
I guess what exactly is the rationale to demand a cashier who can count? what utility does one derive from knowing that his or her cashier can count? |
Exactly :apathic: |
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| fokker |
as if apple heard us, they announced the iTV service whereby customers will be able to buy DVDs on iTunes and play them wirelessly on your TV.
This is more or less a quasi on-demand scheme. However, it gives you a glimpse into the true nature of iTunes: a distribution network of content, just like the broadcast networks, cable networks, newspapers, magazines, record stores, etc., as we discussed earlier.
If Apple keeps moving down the path, the value of iTunes will far exceed that of the rest of Apple. and that's why Disney has Jobs on its BoD.
This is another example where what will excel in the market usually are not the most technically advanced or best performing products. Something Sony and Samsung better take note of. |
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| FastEddy |
... good for Disney, good for Jobs, good for the stock market, good for most music & video publishers, good for musicians (if the quality increases) ... and in the long run good for consumers.
The delivery on "content" to the masses gets cheaper and cheaper ... soon it will have to get much better to survive = better movies (the bad won't sell as well), better music (low quality recordings, CDs & MP3s will be driven out by better quality) ... one could hope, anyway.
I also believe that there is going to be plenty of room for some really interesting and exotic DIY projects that result from this ... both in media content (DIY movies?) nd performance (DIY save and playback systems) ...
The dawning of a new age ?? possibly :) |
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| fokker |
as if the mkt heard us, Warner and YouTube got into a distribution agreement on digital content over the web, :). I think the concept of digitally distributing content is the way to go. The key is to manage it on the other end, and more importantly, how to move it to the living room.
the ipod vs. xpod discussion is interesting in that while few, if any, mp3 players before ipod used the software (iTunes) / hardware (ipod) combination, none of those hardware only solutions survived the mkt place.
While we still assert how much iTunes sucks, all the next generation (ha!) solutions from Apple competitors are using the same software/hardware approach: LG, Microsoft and RealNetworks, to name a few.
Why? Because that is what the mkt needs, regardless how much we think iTunes sucks. |
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| koolkid731 |
| quote: | Originally posted by fokker
as if the mkt heard us, Warner and YouTube got into a distribution agreement on digital content over the web, :)
Why? Because that is what the mkt needs, regardless how much we think iTunes sucks. |
The market didn't hear us. They had it all figured out all by themselves, those bizmen. Read the "Blue Ocean Strategy" book to know more.
The market doesn't need iPod. You and I don't need iPod. People want iPod until the next better thing comes along.
Many people want high-end audio gears. Fewer want to pay the prices of Halcro stuff, for example. But people would certainly go for Halcro quality at Radio Trash prices. |
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| FastEddy |
... will have a better audio pass through scenario. There are many complaints from the musicians (Bob Dylan, etc.) and producers about the "bandwidth" of mass market CD's & iTunes & Apples "Lost Less" scenario .verses. the better quality studio master tracks already available ... ( iTunes currently being a bottleneck to 24 bit / 96K, four channel studio masters, etc. ... and of course not the only one ... but expected to be better by the content providers).
Just this week Apple pre-announced iTV (a black box / set top box / "swiss army knife" feature loaded front end for Apple's Front Row scenario ... ala Squeeze Box), that proports to have DVD-A quality audio. Expect Apple to announce another iteration of iTunes that may at last "satisfy" media & content producers & musicians complaints ... as well as our own concerns about quality.
Apple will be announcing companion products to the above including bigger HDTV & monitors & Class-D pre-amps & amps and associated speakers, etc.....
Which brings us full circle back to origin of this thread:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/20...5freescale.html ..." ... Blackstone was joined by The Carlyle Group ..." et al ... lizards and toads? Maybe, but it looks like diamonds as big as horse turds for Apple / FreeStyle (Blackstone) to me ...
:) ... and it gets better and better ... "real soon now".
:smash: |
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| Photonicube |
| Hello all, I wouldn't be so fast to poke fun at this chip, I have been evaluating the FSA95601 for an 18 channel car audio amplifier for about 2 months now, and so far we have been very impressed. Their modulator and output stage combo are capable of 55Wrms @ .007% THD+N while powered by 14.4V. Useing a custom output stage we have been able to produce much higher output power with even low THD+N. I can post some of the THD curves in a couple of days when I get the new eval board. We blew that last one up during a load dump test :) . |
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| BWRX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Photonicube
Their modulator and output stage combo are capable of 55Wrms @ .007% THD+N while powered by 14.4V. |
Considering that isn't even theoretically possible into a 2 ohm load with a 14.4V rail, I'd still like to see those plots. Unless you're talking about the combined output power of all 18 channels? |
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| FastEddy |
... specs do seem a little out of line:
" ... capable of 55Wrms @ .007% THD+N while powered by 14.4V. ..."
My spec ians would be closer to ~ 15 Watts @ ~.07 THD+N ... with considerations, as BWRX points out, might be closer to reality in usage.
The power available without sophisticated DC to DC converters and lots of filtering ... ?? ... I don't believe you can get there from here.
( I've been wrong before ... :eek: ) |
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| Photonicube |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
Considering that isn't even theoretically possible into a 2 ohm load with a 14.4V rail, I'd still like to see those plots. Unless you're talking about the combined output power of all 18 channels? |
Hello BWRX,
You are correct 55Wrms is not possible with a 14.4V rail, I was reading values I had written down and it is 55W peak or 27.5Wrms. Thank you for the correction |
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| BWRX |
Well, if there's a DC-DC converter involved then those specs could certainly be possible. I just took the "powered by 14.4V" statement as the actual rail voltage for the electronics.
Thanks for clearing that up. 27.5W sounds much more reasonable although that's still higher than it would actually be for an unclipped sine wave and a 4 ohm load. That 27.5Wrms figure is probably at 10% distortion. |
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| FastEddy |
... drive a load with sign wave 55 watts from a 12 / 14.4 VDC power source ... but it takes a sophisticated DC to DC converter circuit and whopping big fuses & wire ... just as a matter of pure power from a 12/14 VDC source, your car's headlights = thousands of lumins from ~35 watts each, from 20 amp fuses in a 12 VDC circuit ... watts of disapated power = voltage times current = 12 X 20 = potentially 48 watts ...
but as you can see from this there is not a 20 or 25 amp fuse between the source (the battery) and the chip amp.
:confused: |
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| Photonicube |
| quote: | Originally posted by BWRX
Well, if there's a DC-DC converter involved then those specs could certainly be possible. I just took the "powered by 14.4V" statement as the actual rail voltage for the electronics.
Thanks for clearing that up. 27.5W sounds much more reasonable although that's still higher than it would actually be for an unclipped sine wave and a 4 ohm load. That 27.5Wrms figure is probably at 10% distortion. |
This is driving a 2 ohm load. Most of our amps drive 2 ohm loads except for our Mark Levinson amps, they drive 8/6 ohm loads and these amps are 16/12/10 channel amps that output 50 Wrms @ .01% THD+N. These have a patiented switch mode power supply to generate the rails. |
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| FastEddy |
" ... These have a patiented switch mode power supply to generate the rails. ..."
Curious to see the schematic for this ... or at least a drawing / picture / spec sheet ... Got a link?
:bigeyes: |
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| koolkid731 |
Here's the patent: 5,598,325 ??
There're thousands of SMPS patents. |
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| Photonicube |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
" ... These have a patiented switch mode power supply to generate the rails. ..."
Curious to see the schematic for this ... or at least a drawing / picture / spec sheet ... Got a link?
:bigeyes: |
unfortunatly I can't post a schematic and there really isn't any datasheet or specs on the amps them selves since they are an OEM amp. You can find them in Lexus cars here is a link to the car that has the amp that I am working on:
http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=gs |
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| FastEddy |
... and that looks like a complicated system.
Photonicube: does this (or any other) mobile audio system have any active, powered noise cancelation ... I'm getting older and appreciate less noise in my ride whether from inside or outside = my latest bugaboo is tire noise ... selecting tires with low noise tread, etc.
I recently bought that Bose headset that can plug into cell phone or audio system ... and appreciate their approach ... just wondering if something like that is happening in car audio?? |
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| Photonicube |
| quote: | Originally posted by FastEddy
... and that looks like a complicated system.
Photonicube: does this (or any other) mobile audio system have any active, powered noise cancelation ... I'm getting older and appreciate less noise in my ride whether from inside or outside = my latest bugaboo is tire noise ... selecting tires with low noise tread, etc.
I recently bought that Bose headset that can plug into cell phone or audio system ... and appreciate their approach ... just wondering if something like that is happening in car audio?? |
Yes, it is we actually have it enabled on our Mark Levinson amps / head units. We have the ability to do noise cancelation on our most of our newer JBL and Infinity OEM amps/head units but it is not a cheap option for car manufacturers to buy, so they usually don't and when they do want it they normally buy the ML3-XX. |
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