| owen |
I'm getting to the point where I want to turn/ mill small items (headshells, bearing supports for example), and considering acquiring a Peatol (Taig) lathe - as I could do both on a small scale in the confines of my (small) shed - thoughts comments, recommendations etc needed to further my analog obsession ;)
Owen |
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| poobah |
| Can you spend some more money? |
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| owen |
It's space thats the main problem - I dont have a garage, and will be squeezing this into a 8 *6 shed along with shelving (already present) and sneaking a drill press in... so things will be abit cramped...
I'd also like to avoid CNC, as I'll only be doing one offs, and any manufacturing will be done elsewhere..
Initially its to make CF and /or wooden arms ( the headshell and bearing mounts), but I'd like to play with weighted unipivots and such like too, so the overall part size wont be huge either... unless I get back into Scale modelling, but then I'd make the space for a nice big lathe ;)...
Who knows I may even have a go at a plain bearing (if I've enough scrap for try-outs and the patience of a saint ;) ) and definitely fancy having a go at doing an idler conversion on a dc belt drive TT...
I also want to turn some nice knobs for the pre-amp that will (shortly) be underway again - its dual mono, and I want to use an O ring to act as the balance control - but that needs groovey knobs, and they're few and far between without a lathe :)
So you can see that the projects are simple, and not huge in scale, and I suspect that the Taig (or derivative) would be able to do it...
Shine a light on my reasoning... :smash:
Owen |
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| poobah |
Well I looked at the Peatol... it doesn't have a carriage feed. so you can't cut threads and all that good stuff.
It looks by the time you buy all the options your at about 300 pounds.
Kick this around. 'bout twice the money but 5 times the machine. Look at all the goodies that come standard.
Just a thought the lack of threading and carriage feed would be a big deal to me. |
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| valveitude |
| quote: | | Kick this around. 'bout twice the money but 5 times the machine. Look at all the goodies that come standard. |
I second that. This Chinese lathe is marketed by several outfits. Mine was purchased from Grizzly. It doesn't have the "fit 'n finish" of a Taig (like Chinese audio products, consider it a assembled kit), but it is stout, and comes with most the acc. you are likely to need.
I have been using mine well over ten years now.
-Casey |
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| bulgin |
Hi Owen, Poobah
How about a secondhand lathe like a Myford? See what I play with: http://www.blueangelaudio.com.
I also have a little Emco Unimat with all its accessories packed away somewhere. Don't know Taig - is that a later incarnation of the Unimat?
Regards all
bulgin |
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| EC8010 |
| Another possibility is to look for a second-hand Hobbymat MD65. http://www.lathes.co.uk/hobbymat/. I have one of these and it's been invaluable over the years. I've used it for exactly the same jobs you propose - making an arm and knobs etc for electronics. It's just about liftable by one person if you're feeling fairly strong. The advantage of buying a second-hand lathe over a new one is that it is likely to come with a full set of accessories (four-jaw chuck, collet chuck, better tool post, etc, etc) |
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| bulgin |
That's a very nice lathe EC8010!!
Being able to use lathes and milling machines of your own in a shed or garage at home is great for a terrific sense of achievement. There's always time for a few at your local but going to do a bit turning on your own lathe could be just as therapeutic.
Recently, there was a post here somewhere about a small tiltable vise. I had a look and a few days later, I came across the identical thing labeled 'Dremel' at Cash Converters, secondhand, full of epoxy spills, no sliding handle and damaged jaws. They wanted +-UKP20 for it and I pointed out all the blemishes and told them it was too much. The store manager came round and said: 'Make me an offer' and I offered UKP1,50.
Well, I got it, came home, cleaned the epoxy off, made a new handle and milled the marks off the jaws in about 1 or two hours.
That's what home machine tools can do for you.
bulgin |
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| EC8010 |
| Hello bulgin, yes, nice, but not as nice as a Myford! You're absolutely right about the therapeutic bit. The total concentration required when using a machine tool is excellent for washing away stress. When I was getting divorced, I found half an hour on the lathe would calm me down considerably. I don't know how people without a lathe survive. It's enabled me to fix all sorts of things around the house, and as you say, the sense of achievement and of beating the system when you fix something like a tumble dryer with "No user serviceable parts inside" is enormous. |
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| owen |
Peatol Lathe (Taig)
# Overall working accuracy 0.0005"
# Maximum bearing runout 0.0004"
# Headstock normality to bed 0.0004" max error
# Cross slide normality to bed 0.0004" max error
# Max taper bed dovetail over pins 0.0001"
# All machine dovetails 45 degree
without power fed cross slide and threadcutting capability
Chinese small lathe (+Mill)
Accuracy unknown at worst - extremely good at best (and very expensive to match)...
Poobah - have you some experience of these..?
Thanks
Owen |
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| poobah |
I only know that the Peatol has no leadscrew... CARRIAGE feed. can't cut threads. Never mind the cross-slide feed... few lathes have that.
All the accuracy specs mean little... you can make damn fine parts on a very loose lathe.
:) |
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| valveitude |
| quote: | | All the accuracy specs mean little... you can make damn fine parts on a very loose lathe. |
Bingo! :D
It's called "reading the play".
I made this spinde bearing with my "sloppy" Chinese lathe. I mispoke in the thread about the clearance though, .0005", that was the total oversize of the sleeve bearing, the actual clearance is .00025" (spindle-to-sleeve on any given side).
Knowing your machine is the key...that and patience, inspection tools, patience, shim stock, and patience. :smash:
-Casey |
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| owen |
Thanks...
The last serious metal work I did was a looong time ago - but now I'm actually looking forward to doing some :)
Casey, any more progress to report ?
Owen |
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| burnedfingers |
Spent 20 yrs in a factory running worn out machines. You can get a feeling for one in a few minutes if you know what you are doing.
Nothing wrong with a worn machine. It means the operator has to be a better machinest. |
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| valveitude |
Hi owen,
| quote: | | Casey, any more progress to report ? |
Sadly, nothing tangible. I live in a semi desert region, and this summer has been hotter than usual. My shop is metal, and hasn’t been below 100deg. inside for months. Since I tend to melt in anything above 80deg., I have been waiting for things to cool down.
This has actually been a good thing. I was starting to get side tracked with grandiose plans, such as a pneumatic suspension. I was led down this path by my tenacious motor noise problem…it turns out it was the motor (duh). I have ordered a new motor, and spent my time designing a new mount…work should start up again in a few weeks.
-Casey |
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| Vinyl-Addict |
| quote: | Originally posted by valveitude
Hi owen,
I have ordered a new motor, and spent my time designing a new mount…work should start up again in a few weeks.
-Casey |
Casey, What motor did you order? Hurst? I read your Corian TT thread and I think you did a fine job with the tools at your disposal. I wanted to mention that I have some experience with Hurst motors since I used them in my own TT projects in the past. I talked with the head engineer at Hurst because I was having so much trouble getting a motor that worked properly.
The shaft ultimately has too much play within the upper bushing and would oscilate uncontrollably at times. This happened with most of their motors I tried. I did finally get one that worked but this was after trying out several. I would avoid Hurst motors and try a DC approach. Good luck with your project. |
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| valveitude |
Hi Vinyl-Addict,
| quote: | | Casey, What motor did you order? Hurst? |
I actually have read somewhere on the forum about your experience with Hurst, which has led to a certain level of concern. Having seen your table project I take what you say seriously.
I still may end up with a DC solution, but have invested so much time on my AC speed controller that I decided to give Hurst one more shot. I don't have the part number handy, but I ordered the smallest 600rpm motor available. This is a "made when ordered" model. I explained to the sales person my application, and my concerns, and was told that the assembly person would pay special attention to the clearance, and minimize the play....we'll see. :xeye:
Sorry 'bout the hijack owen :D |
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| owen |
This is no hijack, its why I want/need the tooling in the first place ;)
We see a lot of creations, but little in the way of the journey.
I want to experience that journey - and all that it involves :)
Owen |
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| k9vap |
Hi Owen
I am new to this forum. I just went out & bought a couple of machines for the same purpose as u! After much research, I settled on the Axminster Micro-lathe & Micro-millAxminster . They are alot cheaper than other brands that are in fact the same machine (eg Warco/Clarke)
This is a learning curve as I know nothing about these machines, but within a few hours, i was engineering bits for my arm getting materials off ebay. Here u can see some of my efforts:
Tonearm
I think one of the things u have to bear in mind is the weight of these machines. I couldnt lift the Micromill, & had to separate the column & table to manage! Needed a strong shelf too! These machines work really well for my purposes.
Please feel free to email me for more info.
Cheers
Vic |
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| jeff spall |
hi Vic,
can i add a second vote for the Micro mill, with the caveat that as it comes it needs a little fettling. Mine needed the gib strip screw threads re-cutting and the gears setting up properly, but once done it's capable of quite accurate work on small parts. It's a real bargain price and small enough for almost any workshop.
Add their little rotary table and a digital readout scale on each axis for a really capable little machine.
Nice air-bearing arm!
regards, Jeff |
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| k9vap |
Hi Jeff
Thanks for the arm compliment!
The biggest problem i find, apart from learning how to use these machines, is how to measure things! Simple things, like finding the center of a round bar, or making a bearing indent at opposite ends of a diameter! I have ordered some books I hope will help!
But having the capability to work this bits of metal has given my imagination a new lease of life!!! I will be spending many hours amusing myself!
Regards
Vic |
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| bulgin |
Hi k9vap
Nice to read about your new machinetool experiences. I have a lathge and milling machine (non-digital unfortunately) and after a few years you will amaze yourself in what you can do on your equipment.
Join the Society for Model and Experimental Engineers in your country. Here in Cape Town, our similar Society is 100 years old in 2007. The origin of this Society is in the UK.
(Btw a friend Jonathan Noble informed me about the Ladegaard arm. Very clever lateral thinking here. I've just spend the last week in converting one of my Micro arms to take sme-type headshells. It involved replacing the straight graphite arm with a curved mag. alloy section and machining all the fittings. Tomorrow, it will be ready for anodising and rewire).
Regards
bulgin |
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| jeff spall |
Hi Bulgin,
I"ve been watching some of your posts with awe, showing just what you can do using modest tools with skill and care - but i think you have a lot of both.
I think that really accurate results can be achieved with well set up but not super-precision gear (like model-engineer class lathes and mills) providing you use good, old-fashioned craft methods, like: think, plan measuere, cut just a little, think and measure a lot, cut just a little more!
I've just invested in three digital scales that I can transfer between my ancient lathe (spent the first thirty years of its life making bits of machine gun for Vickers and the next thirty in my parent's garage before ending up in my little workshop), an equally ancient Fobco drill and my micro mill. These scales have now come down to the kind of price (like maybe 40 euro each) that an amateur can justify and they really transform my machining. i just find a datum point, set them all at zero and work away. Because they take readings off the actual movement of the slides or whatever, it's really accurate and it's very like having cnc except you gotta turn the handles! This is home workshop heaven!!
regards, jeff |
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| poobah |
Jeff,
I could not agree more... there is a world of difference between machining with or without readouts. I have alot of respect for guys that make (or made) do without. I think it will become a lost art.
You can even buy digital calipers now for $20 and adapt them to the slides of these little machines... HUGE difference.
:) |
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| jeff spall |
Hi, i think the great thing is that if you can do it without digital help, it just gets easier when you get it.
The worry is that there are now generations of machinists coming up who are getting taught on CNC, and just aren't gonna spend maybe five years learning the traditional basics. (like who's left in the world who can read an old-style vernier?)
regards, jeff
apologies if this is getting off topic, maybe we should have an audio mechanics forum for the hardware :) |
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| rcavictim |
| quote: | Originally posted by poobah
You can even buy digital calipers now for $20 and adapt them to the slides of these little machines... HUGE difference.
:) |
Poobah,
That sounds liike a clever way to get rocket science tolerances on a beer budget.
Wasn`t that how they manufatured your Millenium Falcon spacecraft? I mean since it was only a model size. :D
I agree about your lost art comment. My mom has new format cheques from her bank recently. On the back of the cheque they have printed in bold lettering BACK. I can only presume that is so dumbed down people passing through our school systems of today will be able to tell which side of a cheque is the back. Trouble is that won`t work if they can`t read! :smash: Morons. |
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| Vinyl-Addict |
| quote: | Originally posted by jeff spall
[B]
The worry is that there are now generations of machinists coming up who are getting taught on CNC, and just aren't gonna spend maybe five years learning the traditional basics. (like who's left in the world who can read an old-style vernier? |
Don't forget the slide rule & Log tables, etc. etc. :)
When you purchase these small machines, try to purchase a machine that is capable of machining a workpiece in size that is slightly larger than what you may picture doing in the future. I say this because "rigidity" is key to successful machining and many of these small or even micro machines simply don't have this key feature.
Larger machines have better structural design so I recommend buying the largest machine (within reason) you can afford.
I would put this feature before digital readouts if you have to comprimise. Readouts are a luxury. When I started machining 30 years ago we turned handles and read straight off the dial. We did it then and you can still do it now. ;) |
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| pinkmouse |
| I keep thinking that one day I'll buy a mill, but then I consider it would mostly be used for making amp faceplates, etc, and the price of something big enough goes through the roof. |
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| owen |
Poobah...
:cool: :cool:
PM - The main reason I'm thinking about a mill is the ease of letting in slots in metal, and getting beatiful machined straight and square edges - It's those sort of things that transform the look of a piece from home made into 'could have been shop bought', especially when hewing (sp?) a nice little headshell from solid. Add on the fact you can relatively easily get both sides parallel, and you're onto a winner...
Front Panel express do a great job on faceplates as thick as you'd like ;)
Owen |
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| jeff spall |
Hi,
Amp faceplates?
i reckon some good marking out and a decent bench drill.You don't need to have something that would traverse all the length in one go
jeff |
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| pinkmouse |
| Problem is, I want to get arty. Slots, curves, contours... Ah well, one day! :) |
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| poobah |
You know the plaques you see everywhere? The ones made up of laminated plastic... say a black layer over a white layer... the letters are milled out with a bll-nose cutter.
Well, these things are surprisingly cheap. The people who do these are quite accustomed to doing "one-offs". These days the process is quite automated as well. My daughter's shop class even has the machine.
The point being, if you knew what file formats they accept, you might be able to get artsy and still get by for $20. I know there is a large selection of mat's... so. you're not limited to just the black and white.
:) |
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| bluebeard |
I too have been extremely creative over the years with my drill press and a little cross slide table. After reading this thead I ordered the Grizzly catalog. There is certainly a lot of gear in here that is targeted for the deluxe home shop. First thing I noticed when comparing the 7x12 mini against the 9x19 mini was the weight. The smaller mill weights 90 lbs shipped and the 9x19 weighs 300 lbs. The 9x19 also comes with an extra 7 1/2" four jaw chuck. It's only 250 usd more. There really is no comparison.
So if the budget is at or under a thousand usd, and if 99 percent of what you create is likely to be one of a kind parts, and you have an abundance of time and patience to be creative, which of the following is going to be the handiest piece of machinery in the little basement shop?
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G3358 mill/drill
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G4000 lathe |
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| FastEddy |
... of the Grizzley Lathes ... http://www.grizzly.com/products/G4000/images .
Purchased more than 15 years ago when the shield / oil catcher in back was an option. It costs more than US$2000.00 back then, excluding shipping into California, and I still consider it the best tool purchase I ever made. Solid, healthy, precise enough for most materials like plastic, wood up to mild steel or hot rolled to 0.001" with care. Not usable on high grade, hard steel, without loads of patience, but is super for brass and bronze, etc. Great for lapping and polishing the hard stuff ...
(Mine could be wired either 120 or 240 VAC, single phase, so I would guess that the current design's motor is the only significant recent design downgrade.)
:smash: |
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| EC8010 |
| quote: | Originally posted by pinkmouse
I keep thinking that one day I'll buy a mill... |
My mill cost twice as much as my lathe and I use it half as much. As our transatlantic friends would say, "Go figure." |
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