| amt |
Ive been out of vinyl for almost two decades and have been asked by a friend for some advice on upgrading his system. He doesnt own a computer and has no interest in them. So hes been out of the information loop for some time. His only info flows from magazines and sales people! So I have volunteered to do some reseach.
He is going to replace a high output MC and Linn preamp setup with something else. He only listens to 50's - present jazz. What Ive offered to do is help him build a phono pre rather than buy the $800+ one a salesguy says is wonderful. Also, he needs a new MC and would like to go low output. So my intitial questions are thus:
1) Can a Phonoclone or similar put out enough voltage to directly connect to an amp without a preamp? He likes the idea less gain stages, such as the EAR 834P which I guess just has a potentiometer added to it. Eliminating the preamp purchase would add to his amp/MC budget.
2) What is the best bang for the buck in low output MC these days for $500 and under and $500-$1000.
Any insight into this sort of setup would be great.
amt |
|
|
| analog_sa |
If the OC9 is very good value @ $300 what is a DL103 @ $135? Unbeliavable value?
If a sophisticated stylus is essential an Ortofon KontraB also fits the bill. |
|
|
| phn |
The 75 db Phonoclone should be enough to just plug it into an integrated amp if you use the Denon DL-103 or equal carts. The 90 db version should work the same with ultra low-output carts. Modern MM headamps tend to be 55 db and work without preamp. Calculate from there.
It's no problem achieving 75 db with ss.
$1,000 will offer you many alternatives. So you need to specify it a little more. What tonearm, for example. |
|
|
| amt |
Well he's using a Linn Sondek LP12 with the Valhalla upgrade and an Akito arm I think. The Pearl appears to be a well regarded design and I will email Promitheus to see if any of the boards are still available. Are there boards elsewhere?
And thanks, I will check out the AT and Ortofon. Not boutique names so probably high value but low "cool factor"
amt |
|
|
| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by analog_sa
If the OC9 is very good value @ $300 what is a DL103 @ $135? Unbeliavable value?
If a sophisticated stylus is essential an Ortofon KontraB also fits the bill. |
Hi,
$135 ? $220 more like.
The Denon is not my idea of an "all-rounder".
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Well he's using a Linn Sondek LP12 with the Valhalla upgrade and an Akito arm I think. The Pearl appears to be a well regarded design and I will email Promitheus to see if any of the boards are still available. Are there boards elsewhere?
And thanks, I will check out the AT and Ortofon.
Not boutique names so probably high value but low "cool factor"
amt |
Hi,
The KontraB is complete overkill in the Akito arm IMO.
That is if its an Akito II. For an Akito I TBH the AT AT440MLa
MM would probably work better than the OC9, and thats $90.
Stick with the OC9 and get an Ittok, checkout :
http://www.vinylengine.com/version14lp12faq.shtml
:)/sreten. |
|
|
| SY |
| Hugely interesting! I did not know that my black LVII was a collectors' item. |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Well he's using a Linn Sondek LP12 with the Valhalla upgrade and an Akito arm I think. The Pearl appears to be a well regarded design and I will email Promitheus to see if any of the boards are still available. Are there boards elsewhere?
|
The Pearl is definitely the way to go, if you can get boards from Prometheus. You will need the matching phono-pre for a low output MC like the OC9. My Pearl destroyed my Linn LK1 preamp phono section. I'm also using an Akito I arm with a medium output Glider on my Valhalla LP12.
This is only my second project (not including speakers) since building a Hafler DH-200 from kit form in 1980! You will be very happy with the Pearl if you decide to go this route.
Jeff |
|
|
| tubenut |
What cartridge does the man use now?
I have an OC9 and after my Linn Karma got long in the tooth I tried the OC9 but could not listen to it, to sterile and HiFi for me.
I have used a 103 Denon since in an Akito with a little lead tape (as used by golf pros on clubs to increase mass of tube and counterweight) and I do enjoy it. It required a cable change to open up the tops and it is not great on used LPs but a lot of bang for the buck and super musical. Analog SA was instrumental in my acquiring the 103 and need to say thanks.......
MM only in Akito, maybe but to my ears most MM sound plastic.....
Sumiko high output MCs are kind on arms and may be worth investigating....
Two useful tools:
http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_...&Search2=Search
http://www.cartridgedb.com/main.asp |
|
|
| rturja |
If you're interested in Pearl, Promitheus has a MC pre-pre section for it available as well.
Pearl pre thread
-Reko
(who's waiting for his own Pearl+pre kit to arrive :) ) |
|
|
| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by vinylkid58
The Pearl is definitely the way to go, if you can get boards from Prometheus. You will need the matching phono-pre for a low output MC like the OC9. My Pearl destroyed my Linn LK1 preamp phono section. I'm also using an Akito I arm with a medium output Glider on my Valhalla LP12.
This is only my second project (not including speakers) since building a Hafler DH-200 from kit form in 1980! You will be very happy with the Pearl if you decide to go this route.
Jeff |
| quote: | Originally posted by rturja
If you're interested in Pearl, Promitheus has a MC pre-pre section for it available as well.
Pearl pre thread
-Reko
(who's waiting for his own Pearl+pre kit to arrive :) ) |
Huh ?????
Output of the OC9 is 400uv and the Pearl was tested with a 400/500uV
cartridge. Whats with this MC pre-pre ? It shouldn't be needed at all ?
:)/sreten. |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by sreten
Output of the OC9 is 400uv and the Pearl was tested with a 400/500uV
cartridge. Whats with this MC pre-pre ? It shouldn't be needed at all ?
|
Well, if your system has very efficient speakers, you may very well be able to use a Pearl and a 0.5mV MC without the aid of a step-up of some sort. Sure the Pearl was tested with a 0.5mV cartridge, but tested with what? The Pearl alone only has 59dB of gain.
Besides, having the matching step-up gives you the opportunity to run a truly low output MC if desired.
Jeff |
|
|
| rturja |
I haven't got first hand experience, but what I've gathered so far is that Pearl doesn't give enough punch for low-output MC's and some kind of step-up is needed, be it MC pre-pre or step-up transformer.
(I managed somehow to mix the threads or whatever to make me think that low-output MC's were involved though :o )
-Reko |
|
|
| amt |
No you didnt mix your threads. The goal is to try and use a low output MC with just an attentuator and a phono pre.
So will the AT OC9 actually work with the Pearl sans active preamp?
BTW, I misunderstood my friend and he does indeed have an early Ittok. He originally had the Akito but upgraded that after the other upgrades.
Pearl PCBs and parts kits are still available too.
amt |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
So will the AT OC9 actually work with the Pearl sans active preamp?
amt |
Not without more gain. I don't think many amps are going to be happy with a 357millivolt input, but I could be wrong.
Jeff |
|
|
| johndiy |
jeff your right that level is high and would require some sort
of mod
john |
|
|
| amt |
Well to be frank, Im alittle confused with the use of voltage and db gain. How does the db gain relate to voltage output? Im sure that 0.357v wont be enough to drive his Linn amp. So if he wants to eliminate his preamp, he would need something like the the Phonoclone @ 75-90db or the VSPS ultra possibly? These would also be easier for him as a first project. And I would guess they should be an improvement over his 20+year old Linn phono section.
He is currently using a Supex901. I noticed that the Denon DL-103 seems to have gotten good reviews too.
amt |
|
|
| phn |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Well to be frank, Im alittle confused with the use of voltage and db gain. How does the db gain relate to voltage output? Im sure that 0.357v wont be enough to drive his Linn amp. So if he wants to eliminate his preamp, he would need something like the the Phonoclone @ 75-90db or the VSPS ultra possibly? These would also be easier for him as a first project. And I would guess they should be an improvement over his 20+year old Linn phono section.
He is currently using a Supex901. I noticed that the Denon DL-103 seems to have gotten good reviews too.
amt |
Voltage-db-voltage calculator
In short, 55 db is roughly 1:550. 75 db =550x10=5,500. The Denon DL-103 has about 1/10 the output of a MM cart. There are other factors. But this should be close enough. 75 db gives the 0.3mV(rms@5cm) DL-103 1.65V.
Having that said, just about any modern MC preamp should work with just about any MC cart. If it's a high-output MC any MM preamp will do. Despite the previous paragraph, this shouldn't need to be too complicated. |
|
|
| Panicos K |
| If he's still using a Supex 901 tell him to forget about denons and at's.Advise him to get a better tonearm and get rid of the akito.Sreten's recommendation for the ittok was ideal. |
|
|
| amt |
Okay, the cartridge that was finally purchased was a Benz Ref 3 Copper. Its specced at .3 mv but its suppose to be slightly less (between .25 and .3)
Can a preamp be eliminated and if so, by using what gain stages?
A Phonoclone or
valve MM amp with transformers or
VSPS with transformers
And if a preamp is really a must, if valves are used, will a Phonoclone be appropriate or is it better to use a MM/transformer combo.
And Im still not sure if people use transformers with SS or mostly for tube equipment, due to lower gain and more noise.
amt |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Okay, the cartridge that was finally purchased was a Benz Ref 3 Copper. Its specced at .3 mv but its suppose to be slightly less (between .25 and .3)amt |
:bigeyes:
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Can a preamp be eliminated and if so, by using what gain stages?
amt [/B] |
Possibly, if you are using an integrated amp.
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
And if a preamp is really a must, if valves are used, will a Phonoclone be appropriate or is it better to use a MM/transformer combo.
amt [/B] |
IMHO a Phonoclone wouldn't be appropriate with a Benz Ref 3, but then I've never heard one. I would go tube MM/trans. combo into linestage.
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
And Im still not sure if people use transformers with SS or mostly for tube equipment, due to lower gain and more noise.
amt [/B] |
Both.
So are you building or buying? I'd also upgrade the tonearm if your friend is still using the Akito I.
Jeff |
|
|
| amt |
He does have an Ittok and not the Akito.
Ideally, he would like to use a passive attentuator and a single MC phono amp. He only listens to vinyl and no other source so a preamp seems extraneous. But Im not sure that scenario will give him enough gain.
Im trying to convince him that DIY can produce a comparable piece of equipment and that commercial products arent necessarily the last word it performance, so DIY is what Im pushing on him.
He would like some tube warmth somewhere in this too. An attentuator on a valve phono amp chassis with tranformers inside would be ideal. Hopefully able to drive SS or a tube amp.
amt |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Ideally, he would like to use a passive attentuator and a single MC phono amp. He only listens to vinyl and no other source so a preamp seems extraneous. But Im not sure that scenario will give him enough gain. |
Theoretically, this could work if the amp has a very sensitive input section.
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
Im trying to convince him that DIY can produce a comparable piece of equipment and that commercial products arent necessarily the last word it performance, so DIY is what Im pushing on him.
|
I agree, but is he really interested in DIY?
Jeff |
|
|
| amt |
He's a diyer but just not with electronics yet. Actually, he's going to help me with some carpentry and Im going to help him with his audio build(s).
He seems to be interested in a valve based system but keeps waffling back towards SS for the ease of use and accessibility. I know there are lots of options and opinions, but for someone that ONLY listens to older jazz recordings, and mostly on original pressings, what might be optimal. So far, my research points towards a tube preamp and phono amp with some transformers.
amt |
|
|
| vinylkid58 |
| quote: | Originally posted by amt
So far, my research points towards a tube preamp and phono amp with some transformers.
|
Can't argue with that.:up:
A friend has recently returned to vinyl with the purchase of a turntable. He is building a 6SL7/6SN7 based phono/pre based partially on an old RCA design. Hopefully he'll let me post some pics when it's done.
Jeff |
|
|
|
