| Gretsch6136 |
Hi,
One day after years of listening to a Dual 505 I thought to myself "I want a good turntable" so I got the paper out and found a listing for a Thorens. The guy was asking $200 AUD. I had never seen a Thorens in the flesh but knew they had a good reputation.
I went to his house which was a mess by the way. He demoed the tt for me and I was sold. This was even though it had a Linn Basik arm with stuffed bearings and he had the shipping screws tightened up. I don't think he even knew the tt had a floating suspension! The arm was so bad that the stylus was leaning into the groove on an angle!!
However the sound was much better than my Dual.
After getting it home and cleaning it up, I took it to my local dealer who is a tt wiz.. He told me that the shaft and bearing were the best he had seen in a long time. It takes over a minute for the shaft to seat right down into the sleeve.
Anyway he fitted it with an RB300 and a Denon DL304 MC cartridge. Let me tell you, when I got that baby home, I was in heaven what a sound!!! I delight in bringing non-HiFi friends around and playing a CD version of an album and then putting a vinyl version on. They are always blown away.
I am running the tt into an Electrocompaniet ELP-1 phono stage and then into my Audio Space/Houston AS8i valve amp.
I think I was fortunate getting the TD160 Super. My understanding is that it is one of their better tt's.
Does anyone else have any experience with this tt? Also what say you in reagard to the match of my cartridge and phono stage??
Thanks,
Mark |
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| HBarske |
Hi Mark!
Congratulations. A TD160 S in good condition at that price is a steal - it would even have been here in Germany, where we have tons of Thorens TTs selling on Ebay every day.
You are absolutely right, the TD160 S is one of the better models, a very pure and straightforward TT built in the early 80s. It has the big 10mm bearing, a dampened subchassis and a nice MDF frame. This is a very good turntable to be happy with for evermore. The match with the RB300 is a good one, but I can't tell you much about the DL304, my Denon experience is only with several DL103 types (love them all :D). |
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| AudioOrigami |
hi peeps
i have a td160 super and a td 166...both work very well
the shaft on the td160 is almost the same on a linnlp12 with a tapered end and much thicker than the standard thorns bearing :)
i got the "henk the fisherman" plinth for the td160s
the plinth weights more than the whole origonal turntable...i supose its the best thing i could have done for it...sounds as good as my lp12 now
:bigeyes:
best wishes
j7 |
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| violette |
Hi Mark
Yes you have a good Choice (Relation with the price).
I have some infos for you !
Common checklist:
l length of the belt (see table)
l position of the belt during operation (middle of the pulley)
l run out of the motor axle
l noise of the motor (No noise 5 cm over the motor).
l oil level and color
l run test without belt (Platter rundown 33 to 0 = 1 minute in minimum)
l noise of the bearing (no noise, hear 5 cm over the platter)
l revolution and switch off test (with single)
l start up phase within five seconds
l lift up and down must be equable
l small inner platter run out not more than 0,15mm
l outer platter run out not more than 0,25mm
l clearance of the tone arm bearing (horizontally and vertically) as low as possible (smaller than 20mg)
l tracking force
l geometry of the tone arm
l left and right channel
l short circuit to ground
Ciao
Joel |
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| Gretsch6136 |
Hi Joel,
Thanks for that checklist. I do not understand all of the items though. Below I will address each point as best I can:
1. Length of belt....I do not see a table in your post. The belt I have is a genuine Thorens purchased new approx 5 years ago.
2. Position of belt.... yes it is in the middle of the pulley
3. Run out of motor axle.... what does this mean?????
4. Noise of motor..... no audible noise within 5cm.
5. Oil Level and colour..... Oil replaced 5 years ago with an aviation oil which keeps constant viscosity regardless of operating temperature.
6. Run test without belt... it takes ages to stop, but how can you know the starting RPM without a belt attached????
7. Bearing noise...... none at all
8. Revolution and switch off test....what does this mean???
9. 5 second start up..... do you mean that it should achieve 33rpm in less than 5 seconds?? If so, then it passes easily.
10. Lift up and down.... what do you mean?
11. and 12. Platter run out........ what does this mean??
13. clearance of tonearm bearing......what does this mean?
14. Tracking force..... set to heavy end of cartridge manufacturer's specification.
15. geometry of tone arm.... set by my dealer when he installed arm and cartridge using proper alignment tools
16. left/right channel....... what am i supposed to look for here??
17. Short circuit to ground.... what is this about?
I appreciate your interest Joel. If you would care to elaborate on the points that I need more information on, that would be great.
Thanks,
Mark |
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| violette |
Hi Mark
Very Sorry
I see my text was not right translate
I thinck i must give you better infos
At first test your bearing without Belt, only with the litte platter and with very thin oil like ´sewing Machine oil
so you can really hear that rumble is.
The platter must run slowly and no noise in the room
Hear only 5 cm over the platter.
After take the right Oil (precision fluid N°78 or an alternate JB N°2 "S") and check the platter run down.
Without Belt , with Platter and rubbermatte and a LP let run at 33 and check the time up 33 to zero. (you need a stroboscope disc)
So you can turn with the hand to 33 Speed and let run still the platter stay).
These time must bee one minute (generally 2 min by sintered bearing) and 3 min by brass bearing.
Tell me the lenght of your Belt (side of side reply gefaltet)
The Belt length is very important, I have a table for all Thorens player.
The lenght ist not the same while the pulley diameter have by thorens much variation in the diameter
Tell me
Joel
PS: Send me a mail I give you Infos over your player
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| Gretsch6136 |
Hi Joel,
I am sorry. I struggle to understand your english.
My bearing is quiet as a mouse - no noise at all.
I fail to understand how you can accurately measure a run down from 33 rpm to zero with no belt attached. How do you get the platter to start at 33prm accurately?
I do not know how to measure the belt. Can you explain?
Thanks for your interest.
Cheers,
Mark |
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| violette |
Hi Mark
You need a Stroboscope disc to adjust the speed.
Without belt you can turn the platter with your hand !
After just count the time the platter need to stay.
the belt must bee 2 X 260 mm .(optimal) but new 2 x 255 mm
Joel
PS: I know the thorens Bearing make no noise and the motor too
So is all OK |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
what is all this talk about the 160s and bigger bearing diameter.
My much older TD150 from 1971 also has a 10mm bearing.
The shaft looks perfect, shame the bushes have worn.
Need to get some new ones inserted and reamed out.
Or is there a better way? |
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| violette |
Hello Andrew
I can help you
I have a Kit for the bearing and spindle.
I can also change the sleeve and the thrustplate.
If you have not clearance you can repair it yourself.
Joel |
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| HBarske |
| quote: | | My much older TD150 from 1971 also has a 10mm bearing |
Yes. It's one from the good old days. Thorens has gone for smaller (and cheaper) bearings afterwards.
Anyway - I'm sure Joel can help you with your bushing problem, he's one of the most experienced experts on Thorens bearings nowadays. |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,| quote: | | Thorens has gone for smaller (and cheaper) bearings afterwards |
but as far as I know they never changed the bearing size in the 150/160 series.
They only went cheapskate in the cheap models. Are making and stocking two bearing sizes a real cost saving? What is the bearing size in the cheaper 166 etc.? |
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| violette |
Hallo Andrew
Bei the TD 166 and 126 III have the bearing 7,2 mm diameter.
The difference between the 10 mm and 7 ,2 mm ist not important.
The platter with 10 mm have a better stabily and a little bit better for more platter Weight.
If you use a stabilizer , an heavy platterweight or if your grundplate have a bad Dimble I have an hardmetal thrustplate to place over the old Nylatron plate.
The surface are high polish and you get less friction and less rumble.
Thorens have replace all the plastic thrustplate with Hardmetal up TD 320 "S", TD 520 "S" and by every TD 2001, TD 3001 und Ambiance.
joel-td |
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| Gretsch6136 |
Hi,
In my initial post I asked if anyone had any opinions on the match bewtween my Denon DL304 cartridge and Electrocompaniet ECP1 phono stage.
I have done a little research. The Denon has an output voltage of 0.18 mV, an output impedance of 40 ohms and a load impedance of 100 ohms. The ECP1 phono stage has an input impedence of 10 ohms.
Electrocompaniet themselves said they did not see a problem but suggested the imput impedance of the ECP1 could be changed by a technician if I really wanted to do that.
Any thoughts or opinions?
Thanks,
MArk |
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| HBarske |
| 10 ohms dampens the Denon to death. I would not recommend this. |
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| Gretsch6136 |
Holger,
Could you please explain??
Thanks,
Mark |
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| mrshow4u |
| ....and 10 ohms input impedance with a 40 ohm output impedance is really going to quiet things down -14dB, instead of -6dB (if 40 ohms input load was used). You're starting with 180uV -14 dB = 36uV It'd better be a really quiet MC pre-amp |
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| HBarske |
Mark,
I went through a lot of Denon MCs - I admit, a DL304 wasn't among them - and all needed to be matched between 100 and 1000 Ohms. With such a low resistance as 10 Ohms, it will for sure sound flat, thin and bright, nothing left from the "Denon magic" which is colorful and warm. |
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| Gretsch6136 |
Ok Guys,
So do you recommend I get the input impedance of the ECP1 changed to 40 ohms?
If so, what benefits would i expect to realise?
Thanks,
Mark |
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| Gretsch6136 |
Hi Holger,
Sorry, Your last post wasn't there as I was composing mine. I do feel there is a somewhat thin/flat character to the sound. It certainly is lacking in dynamics and room filling three dimensionality.
Should I get the impedance of the ECP1 changed to 40 ohms which is the Denon's output impedance, or 100 ohms which is its load impedance?
Actually I am a bit confused as to what load impedance is and how it differs from output impedance.
Thanks,
Mark |
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| HBarske |
Mark,
the input impedance doesn't need to match the impedance of the cartridge. We aren't in HF here, "power matching" is not an issue here. Usually, the best results are obtained when the impedance of the phono pre is higher than the cartridge's impedance. How high - hard to say, depends a little on your taste.
But I am quite sure that 40 Ohms still isn't enough, I never listened to a Denon MC doing well with less then 100 Ohms. |
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| Panicos K |
| As a general rule you could try an input impedance on your phono stage around 20 times higher than cartridges and see how it sounds.If you need a more open sound you can go higher or lower if you like a more controlled dynamic sound. |
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| rodthesod |
| Sir, I have just finished putting my own TD 160 S back into working order. First my own is not in the same room as the speakers, noisy things. Mine is on an Apollo shelf in the room behind the amp. The amp sits on a similar shelf. The two are bolted together through the wall. This ensures a rigid mounting, vital. The first thing to do is to make the shelf on which the deck will stand absolutly flat, then ensure the shelf does not wobble. The shelf I am using is of 20mm plywood. Holes have been cut in it because I use rather stiff wiring which could (did) interfere with the suspension. I also cut slots in the shelf to prevent vibration moving about. These slots need to go from one side to the other, obviously this would mean you would cut it in half. The way around this is to put a slot in from the edge to a few inches in then putting another in the same direction fromthe other side about two inches, then drill a hole and put another slot a little way away from the first. In the shelf I also put holes so I can adjust the suspension without any fuss. Obviously I also have holes in the Oak base plate of the deck. Now put the deck in position. Level the deck using the plinth not the rubbish piece of trim that covers the top of the deck. Now put the turntable back on the deck. There should be about three millmetres of the tt showing below the belt. now level the tt to the deck. If this is correct then the belt will be right. The thing to remeber is the springs have a strength there is no way to change this so you cannot do any more than this. Ensure the balance is correct, ensure the cartridge is aligned. Now play. I have tried your Denon, I thought it rubbish I like Seventies Rock Played very loud, my wife doesnt. Hope this is of help. You have a potentially great deck |
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