| Zero Cool |
Anyone know of a good PIC Microcontroller starter kit? something that has everything needed to get started. MY Nephew wants to build a robot like on robot wars. so he wants to learn how to program basic stamp and PIC Microcontrollers. So i thought i would ask if anyone has experimented with any of these kits?
I need something that is easy to understand and learn, he is 16 and very bright, but he has little experiance. Most of the kits i have seen require an external programmer, and software etc. Is there an all in one starter kit someplace that has a good tutorial???
Thanks
Zc |
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| Jeb-D. |
| I think radioshack actually carries one, but I don't know all the details. Or you can build your own programmer and use MPLAB for software(which is free from microchip). Though it's assembly programming and isn't that easy to use. I have a kit from BasicMicro which is a compiler for basic programming(it's the pro version), with a programmer. I haven't used it in about 3 years, so it probably isn't the newest version. I would be willing to part with it for cheap, to a good home. If your interested, let me know. It works for microcontrollers and stamps. I have a few Microcontrollers I'll throw in with it. |
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| poobah |
Seriously look into the ATMEL AVR series of processors. I used to be a PIC man; but changed a few years back.
ATMEL hit the market a few years later, and as such, really have a better piece of gear in my mind.
* All memory is continuous... no paging and the grief it involves... my biggest complaint.
* PIC started out with a Reduced Instruction Set Core (RISC) that keeps growing... ATMEL's started a bit bigger in the first place and remains more firm.
* All the chips are flash based... so no UV erasers and window chips are required.
There is a kit called the STK500 which will support DIP versions of all the AVR series cores. It will double as a programmer too. About $150 as I recall. The separate programmer is $30.
The manuals and documentation are a notch or 2 better in my mind. The assembly programmer is nice, and free. C compilers area available for about $200.
Give it a look... they have the "kit" board you want...
As far as the STAMP is concerned... well, I don't think it will hold on much longer. The STAMP was an effort to put BASIC on a fat microcontroller... great for people who knew BASIC... and for the hobbyist. I don't think the stamp winds up in too many "pro" applications... too quirky.
;) |
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| Jeb-D. |
| quote: | | I don't think the stamp winds up in too many "pro" applications... too quirky. |
That is true, but my basic compiler is for microcontrollers, not just stamps. It is assembley macro's setup to perform functions common to basic programming. It lets you see your programming in assembly when you compile the basic code program. A good code written in assembly will be most efficent and perform best; without a doubt, but is too difficult for most beginners. |
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| poobah |
I have been tempted to use some BASIC stuff now and then... primarily because I couldn't program in C and had to hire out for code work. Software guys are worse than cats when it comes to following instructions. I always opted away because BASIC is officially a dead language and the software guys clamored for C. Octagon, Stamp, and others all have their active versions of BASIC of course. But Basic's future is uncertain and code is rarely portable.
Basic came about when Fortran was considered the Latin of languages. C is now considered the latin as I understand it (not really a software guy).
I would turn a 16 year old loose on C and assembly... especially assembly. Quite a thrill just making an LED flash in response to a keypress. I stress assembly, because alot of software guys just won't do it... and people pay very handsomely for those that do.
Your offer of a system for cheap can certainly throw all that reasoning in trash though - :D |
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| hoshy |
I have the USB PICKit1 from Microchip themselves, I'm a complete beginner but it seems very good. You can also buy as I did 101 PIC Projects for the evil genius, a book that's written around the PICKit1 starter kit.
The programmer / evaluation board has LEDs, pot and switch. USB interface. Software wise it comes with MPLAB and you can code in C or ASM.
hth
AShley |
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| jackinnj |
I have programmed both PIC's and AVR's -- the AVR's have a lot to commend them but the popular literature (like Nuts N Volts in the US -- the last standing survivor in monthly mass media) is full of more articles on PIC's --
there's nothing wrong with learning on a Basic Stamp and no programmer is necessary -- it then becomes pretty easy to move on to Visual Basic or C.
what ever happened to Lego Mindstorms, btw?
and to think that in 1966 we made a binary "adder" with relays which Ohio Bell Telephone had gotten rid of. |
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| imix500 |
RE: mindstorms
Lego is currently redesigning the whole Mindstorms line. |
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| Schaef |
A couple of things,
First, I would second looking at the AVR line from Atmel. The STK500 is under $100, or, if you want something else to play with, you can pick up an AVR butterfly for $50, which comes with an LCD. They also have a new product coming out called the Dragon which is supposed to retail around $60 and should be quite nice.
For a good resource on the AVR lines, check out AVRFreaks . The forums are very active, there's an academy section where you can download full projects, and there's a section talking about the different compilers available.
As to the language, I won't say much, its really a personal preference for each individual. It all depends on whether your nephew is a hardware guy or a software guy and whether he wants to possibly pursue embedded programming as a career.
And one last thing to Poohbah, as a software guy, I just want to say that you've found the wrong software contractors. I'm always appalled when I hear about contractors who argue with customers and tell them that they don't really want something they asked for. If I disagree with something, I'll discuss it with you in an attempt to either see why you want it that way or show you a different way to do it or why its not a good idea. I wouldn't argue languages, as I wouldn't accept a job that's not in a language I use. (And BASIC isn't one that I use) So, I'm just saying, all software guys are not like what you describe. |
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| poobah |
Schaef,
I second schaef...
Yes, with one exception, I have found nothing but the wrong contractors, and money doesn't seem to have much to do with it. I have a guy now that codes C at light speed... very good.
My problem to date has been is that some coders refuse to go back to square one and rewrite something, this because they didn't do things the way they were asked to in the first place. When they are forced to go back to square one, they say, " Well if you'd told me that in the first place (we did)"... We are working on a project where we simply don't know what the end result is. We have always tried to structure their efforts into modules that could be reused or adapted to move forward... like pulling teeth.
So... we wind up with code that has patch on top of patch. And getting these guys to comment their code is near impossible.
Enough already... I'll stop.
By all means send me a PM. We need a PHP4/5 guy now real bad... someone that can do extensive stuff with MySQL as well. But even if that is not your gig... let me know.
:) |
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| jackinnj |
| quote: | Originally posted by poobah
My problem to date has been is that some coders refuse to go back to square one and rewrite something, this because they didn't do things the way they were asked to in the first place. |
Sounds like the "Computer Associates" business model.
fwiw, I used to have a bunch of programmers working for me -- my experience with those from Poland, Ukraine, FSU etc. was very, very positive, -- you could hire a guy or gal with the equivalent of an MFA (Masters of Fine Arts) who could program "C" at light-speed, yet had a real creative flair. I think that they inhabit virtual artist communities in Westchester and Orange Counties NYC. Maybe they haven't found AZ :) |
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| I_Forgot |
Assembly language is not too difficult to learn. It is in fact easier to see the relationship between the code and the hardware when using assembly language. You cannot program in assembly language without understanding exactly how the uC works (and the hardware that connects to it). Assembly language should be learned before higher level languages so that you learn what you give up (lots of control, speed, efficiency, intro of errors) by going to higher level languages.
Any monkey can learn to program in basic, but when the monkey runs into a problem how will he fix it? Without an understanding of the relationship between the hardware and the program, he'll have to come to groups like this and hope to find a kind soul who understands the code and the hardware to help him out.
If you want the kid to learn something while he's playing with this stuff, DL a copy of MPLAB (or similar free IDE from a uC maker), get a test board with a few LEDs, buttons, etc., and a simple programmer. Your investment does not have to be more than $100 and may be much less. Check the offerings at Spark Fun Electronics , for example.
Before you decide which uC family to adopt, carefully check the availability of the parts. PICs are available almost everywhere, and they are cheap. They are all (?) flash memory based so there is no need for a UV eraser. I had a friend who started a couple projects using Motorola uCs a few years ago. When he ran through his stock of parts (obtained while he worked for Motorola) he tried to buy some more and found few sources, all of which were industrial suppliers and required $100 minimum orders.
I_F |
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| I_Forgot |
Lots of How-to books have been written around PICs:
PIC Microcontroller Project Book (John Iovine, 2000)
PIC Programming and customizing - Myke Predko (2000)
PIC Programming in C - Nigel Gardner
The PIC Microcontroller Book - N. Matic (2000)
The Quintessential PIC Microcontroller - S. Katzen (2000)
Easy PIC'n - David Benson
Embedded Design with the PIC18F452 Microcontroller - John Peatman
One of my favorites:
Design with PIC Microcontrollers - John Peatman
Check all the beginner's books at Square1 publishers:
http://www.sq-1.com/
I_F |
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| jcx |
PICs have grown up and there are lots of books, project sites ect, and the free MPLAB IDE SW is fine for asm code
bigger PICs could take on fairly ambitious projects with 256K+ flash
but for the bottom end this TI offering looks to be for good single sensor/acutator interface in a multiprocessor environment at a very low cost:
http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/landing...=Other+OT+ez430
hardware, with programmer for $20 in a keychain frob package - a lot more handy than the PDP-5 that my roomate planted in the middle of our dorm room while restoring it |
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| jeff mai |
Another "software guy" here.
In twenty years of writing software, I have never been handed a set of instructions that would allow coding a moderately complex design from start to finish. If someone can provide a complete program specification they should be able to write the software themselves! Knowledge of the language is the least part of it.
The key to getting what you want is open and frequent communication (which some coders are not very good at, I realise) , but this costs rather more than lightspeed coding. If you hand over a program spec and the coder starts humming along and asking no questions, you've certainly got a problem. The chance that he's headed in the right direction is almost nil. |
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| Schaef |
| quote: | Originally posted by I_Forgot
Assembly language is not too difficult to learn. It is in fact easier to see the relationship between the code and the hardware when using assembly language. You cannot program in assembly language without understanding exactly how the uC works (and the hardware that connects to it). Assembly language should be learned before higher level languages so that you learn what you give up (lots of control, speed, efficiency, intro of errors) by going to higher level languages.
Any monkey can learn to program in basic, but when the monkey runs into a problem how will he fix it? Without an understanding of the relationship between the hardware and the program, he'll have to come to groups like this and hope to find a kind soul who understands the code and the hardware to help him out.[/i] |
I would have to agree with this. Learning assembly really isn't horrible and really does give a developer a very good understanding of what's going on. Particularly when they're new at the whole thing. Goes back to the logic of teaching the basics first, and then show them an easier way of doing things. (Not necessarily better or faster, just easier) The biggest downside of assembly is the absolute requirement of commenting code, otherwise, a month later you have very little idea of what that piece of code was trying to do without spending hours going back over it line by line. (Wait, maybe that's a good thing!)
| quote: | [i]If you want the kid to learn something while he's playing with this stuff, DL a copy of MPLAB (or similar free IDE from a uC maker), get a test board with a few LEDs, buttons, etc., and a simple programmer. Your investment does not have to be more than $100 and may be much less. Check the offerings at Spark Fun Electronics , for example.
Before you decide which uC family to adopt, carefully check the availability of the parts. PICs are available almost everywhere, and they are cheap. They are all (?) flash memory based so there is no need for a UV eraser. I had a friend who started a couple projects using Motorola uCs a few years ago. When he ran through his stock of parts (obtained while he worked for Motorola) he tried to buy some more and found few sources, all of which were industrial suppliers and required $100 minimum orders.
I_F |
Spark fun is a very good source of pieces parts, there are others as well. I also agree with the double checking of availability of the devices, and a perfectly good example of this is, unfortunately, Atmel and their AVRs. Currently there's a massive shortage and getting the desired components is very difficult. Apparently this happens every so often with Atmel.
Basically, I think what everyone is saying, PICs are okay, but there are now a lot of other options out there. The big things you want to look at are availability of components, availability and cost of development systems and availability of resources to help when you have problems. So, don't lock yourself into just one type of device because its the one that's the most popular.
Bob |
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