| DragonMaster |
After buying a T4P Grado Prestige Black (To use on Technics SL-B200) and being completely disappointed, I'd like to get some suggestions on how I could be able to listen to LPs that don't sound like a RadioShack cassette recorder.
Problems:
When I walk (Even on my toes), the tonearm jumps.
When I press a button on my amp, it jumps again.
When someone else walks up in the stairway, it jumps.
When the washing machine works, the sound is going left-right... (The whole house is shaking actually)
There's no bass and treble + I need to crank up the volume on my old hk670 receiver.
The turntable is sitting on my old drawer chest (Not cheap IKEA but real wood -> pretty solid) next to my amp. I decided I'd build a stereo rack or wall-mount TT shelf. Will they be able to solve my problems? Any suggestions? (I don't really want to have to solidify the whole house...)
Then there's the tone/volume problems. I wonder if it's the phono amp, cart or the TT that has a problem here. All I know is that the Grado has problem with the tonearm. The end of the LPs have lots of distortion because it's not an S-shaped arm and the angle is getting too big for the cart... |
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| audio-kraut |
get a decent turntable with a decent arm and a decent cartridge mounted on a decent wallshelf - my lp's sound in most instances a helluvalot better than the cd.
Decent TT - anything by thorens
Decent arm - any old sme in good repair
Decent cartridge - anything by denon that begins with the letters DL..
Decent wallshelf - build your own. |
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| DragonMaster |
Pricey tho
(ebay #220007506527) |
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| audio-kraut |
Yes, maybe...or rather not. You can buy - sometimes - a dilapidated sme ( I did so for 100$, sme 2 imp.)) and get the missing parts - mine came to about 200 when finished.
Or look at CAM - they have several thorenses on offer.
I like the sme 2 bets (non imp. version)
I will try a sme III if I get one at a decent price - below 300.
The thorens start being good without hype with the td 125 - the 124 is overpriced. The other good and not so expensive ones - td 145, 150, 160.
I have a love affair with the TD 125. Two and counting....
The problem with duals - I had a few over the years - noisy bearing, motor etc.
The TD 125 even beats the pants of a transcriptors hydraulik - I own one and therefore know.
My experience with technics - tried the sl 1800 - too noisy, too much rumble when used to a thorens.
Do not know much about the newer decks - goldrings complete offer is not bad, complete with cartidge and arm.
Would stay away from rega arms - nfg, had the rb 300 completely modified - still got beaten by the old sme when it came to following the groove...surface noise...
Goldring 1042 - not bad, imho better than the shure V15VxMR - which I had....and a shure ultra 500, that sounded better then the
V15...
but - if you can afford it - DL 103, or maybe DL 160, if you're afraid of the expense of a MC phono pre
Those are my recommendations based on my experiences. |
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| phn |
That's not only pricey, it's way too much in my opinion. The small Thorens decks are great, but they were designed as "budget" decks and are quite common.
I second just about everything audio-kraut wrote. The exception is the SME3009 III. Stay away from it. The cheaper Goldring 1022 is just about as good as the 1042.
Get a Thorens TD-150 (my favorite) or 160 with Thorens arm. Sells for about US$100. Here's one for sale in the US. Don't get fooled by the ugly tonearm. It's at least as good as a stock Rega RB250. The Regas don't work with the small Thorens decks anyway. The deck, cart and headamp have much greater influence on the sound than the tonearm.
Later you can upgrade to an SME3009/II or R. I think the Decca International (not the cheapo "London Int'l) is superior. Another great suitable tonearm is the Grace 717. All of them can handle the low-compliant Denon DL-103.
This headamp is perfect match.
The thing with the Thorens TD-150 is that you have a first-rate foundation and can later upgrade as you see fit. |
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| phn |
I would hold out for a 160 or 150. Remember, they are quite common. The 166 is a cheaper version of the 160. The 160 has an all-metal platter.
Edit: They aren't that common on your side of the pond. But you could keep an eye out for the Goldring Lenco L 75 and L 78 as well. They are at least equals to the Thorens. |
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| DragonMaster |
Thorens TD TTs are hard to find in Canada, and Goldring Lenco showed up one result...
Getting an SME tonearm alone costs about $300 on eBay also.
Any other places with lower prices? |
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| phn |
You won't find a cheap SME3009. It's quite possibly the most common vintage tonearm. But it's the one everybody knows. What's worse is that it gets even more expensive should you use the Denon DL-103. The SME3009 is simply too light. (Same problem with Rega. Not so with the Grace 714.) You need a heavier headshell. An Orsonic headshell brings around US$150! (You might just as well get a used Ortofon SPU!) So you talk a total of about $600-700!!
That wasn't intended to scare you off, but to illustrate what it costs. If that is what you want, the by far cheapest alternative is to find a deck with tonearm of choice. With some luck, you might find a deck and SME tonearm for $400. And there are other carts than the Denon DL-103.
Lots of people will say that the Thorens begs for an SME. But then you should ask yourself, would you buy a Wadia CD player?
A Thorens in Ontario.
Some sites for ideas
http://www.analogue-classics.com/index.html
http://www.theanalogdept.com
And my favorite small deck Thorens |
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| DragonMaster |
So the first eBay auction I found maybe isn't that pricey.
For the same price I wonder if it would be possible to DIY something better (Turntable only, maybe not the tonearm)
I bought some giant Sony R2R motors for $3 at my surplus store two months ago. They run very smooth. Then I need a platter, bearing, etc.
| quote: | | But then you should ask yourself, would you buy a Wadia CD player? |
No, but I have a TDA1541A project waiting. |
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| Dumbass |
Look into getting a 1200 series Technics. They come up used all the time. Great drive system. Quality arm. No, they don't have the vintage cache of a nice Thorens or Garrard. But since they have been in continuous production since the 1970s, there are huge economies of scale at work.
Such a table would certainly sound better than a Radio Shack cassette deck. :cool: |
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| phn |
The first deck has an SME3009 III, which is a very lightweight tonearm. Otherwise a very nice deck.
A DIY tonearm is definitively an alternative. Should be fairly easy if you have the tools. (I don't.) Take a look at the 47 Labs arm.
But, again, there are so many things to consider. The floating-suspension Thorens decks are picky about tonearms. Lencos are idler-wheel decks and can take any arm. But a better alternative for you is to get an Empire 208 (or some other model), even if it means importing from the US.
Why did I miss this? An Empire in Canada! No plinth. But at least the price is right, so far. Not the greatest of tonearms. That you can take care of later.
It seems you should be able to find any deck you want in Canada. All you need is patience.
As for the Wadia. It didn't come across. But my point was, you can always go higher. The bigger Thorens TD-125 is not only said to be superior to the Linn LP12, it allows you to use a 12-inch SME 3012. But a 3012 costs at least twice as much as a 3009... |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | A DIY tonearm is definitively an alternative. Should be fairly easy if you have the tools. (I don't.) Take a look at the 47 Labs arm. |
I don't think I have tools for this -> Jig saw, miter saw, electric drill, Dremel, circular saw.
But, I can probably access some aluminium-working equipment at an aerotechnical school where I know someone working there.
I still think a turntable should be easier than a tonearm to build... (The bearing being the only problem) |
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| phn |
| This tonearm is half a century old and has yet to be improved on. |
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| dnsey |
| quote: | | the 124 is overpriced |
I disagree: it's probably not a 'beginner's' T/T, but the sound you get for your money is incredible.
I bitterly regret selling mine when they were cheaper, but hope to get another sometime. |
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| audio-kraut |
| quote: | | What's worse is that it gets even more expensive should you use the Denon DL-103. The SME3009 is simply too light |
Maybe in theory - but I run a dl 103 on an sme II with great results.
This cxombination sounds better than teh supposedly better matching V15VxMR.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/sear...ywords=Thorens+
Check here. |
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| DragonMaster |
In fact, I think I'll start by building a suitable rack. I don't know how TT wall-mount racks look like...
This:
http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/diyttstand.htm
is about the only thing I found apart from TNT-Audio's Sandbox that can help with vibrations.
Also, the washing machine is making the walls shaking so I don't know if it's a really good idea to use a wall-mount stand.
| quote: | http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/sear...ywords=Thorens+
Check here. |
Thanks for that link.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/deta...k_ii_and_td145/
What's the best, the 125 II or 145? The 145 sounds good; comes with Grado Gold. |
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| phn |
| The medium-size DT-125 beats the small-size 145 hands-down. The TD-145 is a semi-automatic 165 or 166. The 147 is a semi-automatic 160. |
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| Nanook |
thought you'd never give up on the Greystattions (by the way, I've bought 3 or 4 1002 s and given 3 away:-) )
Welcome to the analogue world. Many here have posted links to various turntables. I won't do that for ya, but I have built (or rather made a new plinth) and a complete $2.19 tonearm (If I can do it, anyone can.. Don't even need to be technically proficient.
DIY tonearm thread
lots of decent inexpensive tts aout there. I just bought a Yamaha YP450 for $50 cdn including shipping with a cartridge, etc. All works.. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | thought you'd never give up on the Greystattions |
Well, the PSX is sitting in a corner for quite a bit of time. I've been able to get an other gear to replace the one that was broken lately, but I still don't have a suitable output stage, good caps being hard to find around here.
| quote: | | (If I can do it, anyone can.. Don't even need to be technically proficient. |
I got lost. |
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| Nanook |
anybody can build an arm, or replinth a table (or even build your own)..
My greystation is sitting semi-naked in the dungeon with the OBs and the old Yammy intergrated amp..:-), but still sounds great ! |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | anybody can build an arm, or replinth a table (or even build your own).. |
The problem is to be able to find something else than a picture or too simplistic scheme to be able to build the ones I can find. Why: I don't know how tonearms other than the Technics SL-B200's T4P look like, so I have no real idea of what you mean. Also, I just read about low-profile carts, etc. and see that a tonearm should almost be built for a cartridge. I saw you used TT adjustment tools, but I don't own any of these. |
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| Dumbass |
| quote: | Originally posted by DragonMaster
The problem is to be able to find something else than a picture or too simplistic scheme to be able to build the ones I can find. Why: I don't know how tonearms other than the Technics SL-B200's T4P look like, so I have no real idea of what you mean. Also, I just read about low-profile carts, etc. and see that a tonearm should almost be built for a cartridge. I saw you used TT adjustment tools, but I don't own any of these. |
Not to flog a dead horse, but Ortofon (and other makers for all I know) makes integrated hi-fi cartridges that fit directly to a 1200 tonearm, i.e. no cartridge alignment necessary.
You should not confuse the pro-grade 1200 series with your current table. Two completely different machines.
http://www.kabusa.com/ortofon.htm
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| dnsey |
| quote: | | When the washing machine works, the sound is going left-right... (The whole house is shaking actually) |
That's a bit worrying - perhaps you should have your foundations inspected:eek: |
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| Dumbass |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dumbass
Not to flog a dead horse, but Ortofon (and other makers for all I know) makes integrated hi-fi cartridges that fit directly to a 1200 tonearm, i.e. no cartridge alignment necessary.
You should not confuse the pro-grade 1200 series with your current table. Two completely different machines.
http://www.kabusa.com/ortofon.htm
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I just found out that Ortofon will no longer allow Kevin at kabusa.com to sell Ortofon's hi-fi cartridges, because Kevin sells the 1200, which is considered a DJ product:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vi...ges/554734.html
This is purely a marketing "strategy", having nothing to do with the quality of the 1200 as a hi-fi turntable.
Therefore, I can no longer in good conscience recommend an Ortofon cartridge.
I stand behind my recommendation of the 1200 series, and of Kevin's business as well. |
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| Nam402 |
| quote: | Originally posted by audio-kraut
get a decent turntable with a decent arm and a decent cartridge mounted on a decent wallshelf - my lp's sound in most instances a helluvalot better than the cd.
Decent TT - anything by thorens
Decent arm - any old sme in good repair
Decent cartridge - anything by denon that begins with the letters DL..
Decent wallshelf - build your own. |
Hi ak and everyone,
Yes, I did the first three on the list and I didn't need the shelf. Rock solid sound, focussed sound stage, huge presence on the best recordings and lost of smiles and footapping hereabouts!
Cheers, Nam :D |
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| Nam402 |
I second this. I was warned off the Denon dl103 but I wanted to use my moving coil stage in the Naim preamp. I use the Denon with my SME 3009 II improved and it sounds very sweet to my ears.
Cheers, Nam :cool: |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | That's a bit worrying - perhaps you should have your foundations inspected |
Old house, nearly 100 years old, no problems when washing machine was on 1st floor but my room(Where the TT is) and the machine are on the 2nd floor. There are lots of studs to change in the basement... (Just long) |
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| gary f |
I bought a used systemdek IIX few months ago for 250$ approx. with a systemdek tonearm. Best purchase I ever done! Way better than my old philips 312.
I put a Denon DL110and i'm very happy. The sound is great, but I would not say it is better than CD.
F |
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| Nanook |
That's one I have kinda always wanted. A long time ago in a place far, far away, HiFi Sound Canada (before "UHF" became "UHF"), did a turntable review. One of the tests was a"suspension isolation test". Not too scientific, but the results for the Systemdek were better than a LP12 in that regard in that test.
The Dunlop Systemdeks were amongst many "almost LP12s" of the day. I know I miss my Heybrook TT2, and wish that I turfed everything else (in turntables that is) to keep and improve it..
The "Systemdek" Profile arm was and still is "OK" but like many of its contemporaries really isn't as good as an Alphason Xenon, Rega RB300, or better.
Dragonmaster... if ya like I'll make ya an arm:-) |
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| graeme uk |
You dont have to spend lots of money.
I bought a lenco l75 for £40
I cut the side off the chassis and mounted it in 6 layers of 18mm birch ply £30
I added a rega rb250 that i already had, if you havent about £60
im using an ortophon 510mk2 £60
and a cheap cpc phono stage £12
I added a few clips to the arm tube to reduce treble siblance.
This easily beats my marantz cd67se cd player!
You have a cart, and a phono stage, so a lenco, a reasonable arm and a sheet of ply and your sorted. |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,
Jumping in here rather late but ......
Nothing wrong with a Thorens with a stock Thorens arm (they are pretty good, and already mounted!). Stick an Ortofon on it and you are in heaven. That's as long as the belt and bearings are good, as with any table.
Any good table with a heavy base and platter can be ruined by improper packing for shipment.
I've owned at least four Thorens tables and now have a 125 MKII and a 145 MKII (I am looking forward to get going). Never had any problem with any. The better ones get quieter. Well worthwhile. I won't comment on some of the other brands I've had.
Anything by Linn is excellent also.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
The turntable will have to wait for now, I just found out I spent almost all my money... (On never completed DIY projects mostly... I can't even get all the parts for my new computer now!)
I think I should sell at least one of my 6-7 tuners (For 2 systems)
Right now I have a Grado Black I paid $80 CAD, and I would try to keep it. (Yes, twice the price... Online websites tell me that Grado refused to allow them to sell the carts. outside USA, so I had to buy it locally.) |
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| anatech |
Sounds to me like you have to concentrate on finishing things.
I have a same problem. ;)
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
| What about the TD 115 MkII? |
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| rturja |
TD-115 is not that good as bigger Thorenses go - pretty iffy to set up correctly and almost all plastic construction. And in addition changing the tonearm can be a major surgery.
If you happen to see a heavy platter (Goldring) Lenco for a decent sum, that would be ideal from DIY (or refurb) point of view.
-Reko |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,
I had one of those. It's miles better than your normal turntables (other brands) and would be a very good starting table.
No, it's not as good as some of the others but better than most. Do not change the arm. There isn't anything wrong with it. It is very low mass. I liked the lift at the end. To be honest with you, if I still had mine, I would keep it as a spare.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
There's a guy selling locally:
-TD115 Mark II /w box
-ISOTRACK TP30 tonearm
-Shure V15 Type IV (no needle)
-Shure M94 new needle
-Discwasher kit
-Original alignment tools
$250
Problem : It's $250, I just spent $370 on a Yamaha CA-2010 amp. |
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| steenoe |
If its the Discwasher brush with the walnut handle, go grab it at once. Its the best record cleaner ever made.
Steen:) |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,
The table new was about $250 I think, on sale. The Shure cartridges sound like :yuck: , so you don't really care about them.
All in all, I think $250 is steep. The guy is a dreamer. Also, the body of a cartridge doesn't cost much, the money is in the stylus. If you pick one of these up, try an Ortofon cartridge. Well worth it. I'd be more concerned about the bearings and belt.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | The Shure cartridges sound like , so you don't really care about them. |
Why is everybody praising the V15, a lot of people that suggested me the Grado Prestige use this? |
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| Dumbass |
| quote: | Originally posted by anatech
The Shure cartridges sound like :yuck: |
I disagree.
I do agree, though, that 250 USD is pricey for the TD-115. |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,| quote: | | Why is everybody praising the V15, a lot of people that suggested me the Grado Prestige use this? |
Why do people drive Fords? Advertising and price. If you look at the 70's and 80's, Pioneer, Dual (who changed to Ortofon) and Shure would make a no brain system. Couple that with Cerwin Vega!, or JBL and you have an advertisers result.
More than once at audio shows I've walked by a booth and been able to tell the poor rep that they were running a Shure (in the days they used turntables). Invariably they were stunned as I was correct. Shure has a characteristic hard or brittle sound, like a cheap CD player. Listen to something better and you will understand. I used to sell Shure. :yuck: :zombie: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: I felt like a pusher.
In all fairness, they sound better than Excel and a host of others, but still nasty. I do find Ortofon quite acceptable as an example.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
Maybe I could just get the discwasher and tools (if he accepts to sell them separately) ??
Now that I got my new amp, LPs sound WAY better, but the tonearm still isn't S-shaped, so you get more and more distortion as you go thru the end of the record. (When you start to listen an LP, it sounds very good, and at the end you have the impression to listen to a RadioShack portable cassette recorder coming with a TRS-80). |
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| audio-kraut |
| quote: | | more distortion as you go thru the end of the record |
I am almost certain your cartidge isn't aligned properly. I had both s shape and straight, and if it sounded crappy at the end - the alignment was off. |
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| DragonMaster |
| It's a P-mount ;) |
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| audio-kraut |
the name says it all.... |
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| graeme uk |
I had a plannar2 before i bought my lenco, the lenco wiped the floor with the rega.
My lenco is in a heavy ply plinth with the regas rb250 arm.
Cheaper and better than the rega. |
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| DragonMaster |
| I could get just the discwasher for $50, is that a good price? |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,
Brand new in the box? Maybe, I haven't checked around.
Used - not a chance! If this is the same guy, walk away. He's delusional.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
Yup, it's the same guy. The good thing if it would come from him is that the kit is complete with box(but used) and there's no shipping to pay.
What about a D4 kit for $15? |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,
I don't know. My feeling is that he is unrealistic. I sold discwashers new for around $30. CDN in the late 70's. I ahve no idea what the last known price was, or where he is getting his valuations from.
-Chris |
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| DragonMaster |
| In fact, D4 is available new. Is the Discwasher kit a D4 + antistatic gun? (You can find both separately, but is there something missing once you have both?) |
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| DragonMaster |
Got an MC preamp now! In fact, the Yamaha CA-2010 amp I just got has options for MC, 47kOhm, 68kOhm and 100kOhm cartridges.
Even the TD-125, 135 and 136 are overpriced, they all sell for ~$600, about the same as the 124. |
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| anatech |
Hi DragonMaster,| quote: | | (You can find both separately, but is there something missing once you have both?) |
The ability to make people scream if you don't get the static gun. :devilr:
My personal favorite so far is the 125 MKII. Watch garage sales, Ebay seems to be built on dreams. Therefore, used gear sellers are dreaming too. The problem is that they are getting these prices sometimes. Dreams do come true for some.
-Chris |
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