| Help, I am falling in love with an idler tt! - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Triumph |
Help, I am falling in love with a Garrard Zero 100S!!!
The question is at the end, first my story.
After almost a year orientating for a new tt I decided to buy a Garrard Zero 100 S from EBay. I choose the Garrard mostly because I want to try an idler drive and less for the arm with the zero angle fault because with a normal tt the fault is only a few degrees. And off course its price, it’s a steal, much cheaper than 301 or 401.
When I opened the package I also felt for it looks. The arm and platter looks great, even my wife agreed, this is a nice piece of audio equipment. But from a total different design than his famous brothers 301 and 401.
The reason for choosing this Garrard with (obsolete?) idler drive technique is that I am aiming for a more controlled drive which hopefully results in a tight base a good quality mid but probably a messy high because of the bad bearings of the special arm of the Garrard. And of course there is rumble to expect.
So the first listening impression:
Worst than I expected. A big disappointment, what a rumble, unbelievable!
But wait, this is no rumble, something is wrong! After a while I discovered the fault; bad connections in the tone arm, there is a sliding cartridge holder with some metal strip connectors. I cleaned and bend them a little to make a good electrical contact.
Second impression:
Not bad at all. Yes very good but not what I expected:
-the high region was bright, a lot of detail, not too sharp, beautiful.
-the mid was great, nothing to complain just what I expected.
-there is a lot of low, down to the very low regions, but not with sharp attack and punch, more round and more analogue.
-stage is extraordinary good, with a good quality record there is a certain live experience with different layers of sound.
Above conclusions after listening to LP and comparing it with the same album on CD and comparing it with my previous tt.
My equipment is a Linn Classic amplifier and CD player and Italian Diapason speakers. Normally this combination gives with CD a lot of speed because of the design from the Linn but also because the Diapason low/mid driver is direct drive (no XO or BSC ) and just a simple 1e order XO for the tweeter. The Phono Pre amp is from Cambridge audio.
My previous TT was a Sony PS-X4, this is a plain consumer tt, direct drive, not the worst not the best.
About the rumble. There is some, when I turn the amp volume at 70% level and with silent passage of for instance classical music. It is more than the direct drive Sony, there is more detail so also more rumble. But is rumble the only thing to the quality of an tt?
This tt has got a lot of potential. Bear in mind that I did nothing special for preparing and adjustment. Only needle weight and tracking force.
I think after some tuning it can meet the level from other better than average tt’s. And that is my challenge for the coming time to prepare, compare it and let it exceed more common tt’s. Hopefully with the help of this forum.
What I think can be improved:
-its low can be with more attack and speed.
-the rumble
I really do not understand the amount of negative comments there is on the internet for this tt. There are only few exceptions like: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/garrarde.html
If you have experience with this Garrard zero100s idler drive please share this with me. If you have suggestions to improve it let me know. I am challenging other tt’s like Linn and Micro Seiki. The Sony was too easy to beat.
To be continued. |
|
|
| James D. |
I have a Garrard 100 too. I replaced the arm on mine as I didn't like it.
The Garrard is a good performing idler but it isn't great. The bearing is a ball bearing race and this is noisier than a standard bearing.
If you get a chance to compare it with a Garrard 301/401 or Lenco L75/78/88 or 99 then you will see that the 100 is about 80% of the others...
As it is it is more than good enough to show a clean pair of heels to a lot of other turnatables including the LP12 and its ilk.
James |
|
|
| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by James D.
......I have a Garrard 100 too..... As it is it is more than good enough to show a
clean pair of heels to a lot of other turnatables including the LP12 and its ilk......
James |
Hi, you wish, :D/sreten. |
|
|
| phn |
James, now it makes sense. I never figured why people love the small Lencos and not the Garrad 100S. I thought it had to do with snobism.
I second the Lenco L75 and L78. Easily the best bargains in audio.
Edit: The LP12 is about snobism. The small Thorens TD-150/160 are just as good, but cost a fraction of the LP12. |
|
|
| James D. |
I don't wish anything...
I've demo it and done it a few times to LP12 owners ...
Upsets them until they realise how much money they can sell their LP12s for on ebay and how many records they can buy with the difference after buying a good deck.
Most buy Lencos cos they're even better. Some buy Garrard 301/401s cos they can - but its the well fettled 100 that gets then rolling...
New plinth, new arm and a good service and thats all you need.
Ohh and an open mind and open ears :)
I have and still use:
Ariston SL110E - as a belt drive reference as I perferred it to the LP12
Goldring Lenco GL78
Kenwood KD990
Aiwa RP2600K
JVC QL-7A
Optonics RP7100
Garrard 100S
Digital Design DRS-1
Technics SL1000
lots of different arms and cartridges
I won't bother to list the ones I've had and sold like LP12, Gyro, Scheu Premier...
...wouldn't want you to think I had no basis for comparision
James |
|
|
| sreten |
Hi,
You claim the 100S " as it is " is better than the " LP12 and its ilk ".
This is simply not true and pure wishful thinking.
My first turntable was a rebuilt Lenco GL60 with new arm and massive plinth.
The first subchassis turntable I rebuilt completely slaughtered it.
Getting subchassis turntables singing is a black art, I accept that.
The 100S needs a new arm and rebuilding to stand a chance of being good.
Though with some tweaking and the right cartridge could sound quite nice.
:)/sreten. |
|
|
| bulgin |
Hi Triumph
Here's my handkerchief! If you play vinyl, your heart's in the right place.
I once 're-commissioned' one of these tt's for a local violinmaker.
When I delivered the job (which had a kaput wire inside the arm), the old guy told me at the time he bought it new, he had listened to a fair number of other tt's, before deciding on the Garrard.
The bearing and the arm IS a problem but these can be replaced or tweaked to make them into something acceptable by audiophile standards.
Cheers
bulgin |
|
|
| James D. |
Well sreten,
If you bother to read my post you will see I said it has a new arm and plinth...
Oh dear, oh dear...
But thank you for reminding why I gave up posting here |
|
|
| choky |
| quote: | Originally posted by sreten
Hi,
You claim the 100S " as it is " is better than the " LP12 and its ilk ".
This is simply not true and pure wishful thinking.
My first turntable was a rebuilt Lenco GL60 with new arm and massive plinth.
The first subchassis turntable I rebuilt completely slaughtered it.
Getting subchassis turntables singing is a black art, I accept that.
The 100S needs a new arm and rebuilding to stand a chance of being good.
Though with some tweaking and the right cartridge could sound quite nice.
:)/sreten. |
;)
to each his own.........
but-with no doubts-LP12 is one of most overrated "censored word here" in audio world.......perfect example of typical Hi-Fi mumbo jumbo......
and-if that is of any validity-I didn't own one,but I repaired and tweaked few, and have opportunity to compare it with few "crappy" TTs....give me always one of those crappy.........especially for 5% of LP12's price ...... |
|
|
| lndm |
Hi Triumph,
I use a Dual 1226 idler drive which I picked up in near new condition. It has a good arm which I've kept. I needed to lubricate the unit and calibrate it, and in time I damped it and replaced the cartridge.
I find this unit to be smooth and quiet. I have a friend who is a Garrard enthusiat and even he comments on my TT, surprised at what the idler can do. |
|
|
| Triumph |
I think the main bearing isn’t a problem. But the bearing is a bid strange to me. Seems to be a combination from a grease slider and a ball bearing. I cleaned the ball bearing and re-greased it. It is maybe not the best but it was and still is dead silent. Can someone explain how it works?
But there is a tweetie sound somewhere. I am using my stethoscope to locate noises. Probably next weak ill have some more time.
Indm, going to Google to look how your Dual looks like.
Bulging, first the motor, idler and platform after that the arm will get my attention. If you have any ideas pleas let me know.
About the rumble I am thinking to cheat a little. |
|
|
| Triumph |
| The bearing in a drawing. Can someone explain the greasy part? |
|
|
| Triumph |
| quote: | Oh dear, oh dear...
But thank you for reminding why I gave up posting here
.. |
James D.
The internet and especially this forum is a great medium to talk about your hobby. But from the start I also read some unfriendly or sarcastic post. I have learned not to bother it. Sometimes it may not be mend that way, on writing words are different than spoken. The person from the post can be in real a very nice person. But me, I am hopefully writing in a good way, in real life I am a as*hole.
I am using this forum to learn something, practice my English writing and share my knowledge and experience with others in an informal way.
So please do not stop to post I really appreciate your reply with all the information. |
|
|
| Nanook |
a "well fettered" SB100 Zero is what I have. I've been playing with the arm. I think the real culprit in the arm is as tnt suggested, a poor pivot for the headshell and the sliding headshell adapter. I've torn mine apart. with a little work the pivot can be improved (wrap some teflon tape around the pivot shaft and reinstall. Take the frigin sliding thing off, hog out a spot for 1/2 spaced mounting screws to go.
No new plinth (mine is the Aluminum type), hey but stuff it full of playdoh or similar non hardening stuff.. whatever to dampen the plinth. I will say that the ICs are absolutely poor. I'm replacing mine with Mogami or Canare microphone cable..
The bearing on this is different, a ball bearing spindle arrangementand pretty much absolutely quiet.
Regardless of "neigh sayers", you have a cool table that few would even consider (I thank tnt for pointing it out on the net). I paid USD $20 equivalent for mine (no dust cover) at a local pawn shop.
have a bunch of fun and enjoy. |
|
|
| fantasia |
The point is a well balanced well exceuted turntable design whatever
the drive system will sound good!!!!!!!
even a Direct drive willl sound great well executed something like a kenwood LOD-7 springs to mind
the huge MIcro SEKIIS
i have tweaked a system deck "2" the oil rig type out of its original performance into something else
the Garrad 100s certainly needs a new arm and if it has ball race rather than a single point bearing that would be its downfall not its idler operation!!!!!!!!
Funny that all the great TTs not "JUST" the cult items have massive over built bearings!!!! my sytem decks limitation is its well made but small bearing, i can't put any more mass onto the bearing
it is in the circular plinth it made a made a hugh difference!!!!!
i do like the sound of indm's Dual which really took off with a new modern cartridge
:smash: |
|
|
| phn |
| I cannot see what is wrong with the original tonearm. Granted, I use low-compliant carts, which aren't very dependent of the tonearm. That is, nothing outside of mass, stiffness and being free from resonance matters. The anti-skating mechanism serves no purpose with low-compliant carts. And since I hate the anti-skating mechanism and your tonearm doesn't seem to have one, I can't imagine it getting much better than that. I would try to tweak everything I could get out of it. |
|
|
| Nanook |
I agree, but perhaps you got the feeling that I was being "idler-centric",which is not the case . As you stated, a well implemented tt of whatever typpe generally sound good. After that it can be a matter of "taste", but if the goal is exactly the same and the design parameters and biases are the same, towards the top drawer gear, regardless of the manufacturer, the sounds "should" become similar..
But that's asssuming that all the design criterion are weighted the same as well as all performance criteria and desiner criteria. Hence, we have "flavours" of turntables, arms , cartridges and what not.
I guess I am just trying to encourage some to have fun and experience their systems, and $$$ need not be the only factor. Some of the best systems I have put together are really cheap (Like $40 USD or less) and have performed wonderfully. Some systems I have put together that have costed 150 x's as much seem to be less so. |
|
|
| fantasia |
I agree, like you iam looking for bargins and retro is the way to go often TT don't neccisarily have to to expensive neither do cartridges
there are bargins to be had the Garrard i could live with with a different arm what they do with Lencos is amazing!!!!!!!
i would love to hear one Lenco well tweaked or a 100s garrard with a better arm quite a bargin!!!
actually here in Australia we had a belt drive TT in the 1970s and 80 "APAN" i suspect that it was a CEC "OEM" people used to put SME 3009"2s" on them with amazing results
;) |
|
|
| sreten |
| quote: | Originally posted by Triumph
The bearing in a drawing. Can someone explain the greasy part? |
Hi,
I can't quite follow your drawing, i.e. whether the grease part
is part of the thirust bearing, it appears to be, and then you
ask with the ring ball bearings what is its point ?
Can only guess here than somehow the grease is slowly pulled
onto the main shaft and down to the ring ball bearings, so the
purpose of the larger square section of grease is a reservoir.
:)/sreten. |
|
|
| Triumph |
New drawing. It is more complicated than I thought. I also discovered an ‘O’-ring. There are different sliders from bronze and plastic and a ball-bearing.
The grease part puzzles me. All together it seems to me a delicate piece of technical design. But still simple and not really high tech, like ceramic balls or in that order.
Wonder how the famous grease bearings from the Garrard 301 and 401 looks like. |
|
|
| KBK |
| quote: | Originally posted by choky
;)
to each his own.........
but-with no doubts-LP12 is one of most overrated "censored word here" in audio world.......perfect example of typical Hi-Fi mumbo jumbo......
and-if that is of any validity-I didn't own one,but I repaired and tweaked few, and have opportunity to compare it with few "crappy" TTs....give me always one of those crappy.........especially for 5% of LP12's price ...... |
Setting up a LP12 suspensionis an art, and it is VERY critical to the 'sound' of the table. Critically important to do it exactly right. Doing so (getting it right) --is a learned art. Once known, it can be done in as short a time as 5 minutes. Getting to the point where one can do that..can take years and years of practice.
I explained the basic suspension part of it once on the AVS forum, go and do a search there for my posts on the subject, if you are interested. If the suspension is even slightly off, it will have no bass-to bad bass, at best. If properly set up, it will still have the midbass hump, but the rest will be very, very good. The springs and grommets die slowly, for example, and should be replaced if over 10 years old or if in difficult enviroments. Keep the chosen arm mass close to the optimum design point which is the Ittok mass. Belts must be in sound working order as well. Leveling, is also critical. Motors must be good,and the Valhalla board, if older, must be re-capped, as it is 'on' if the TT is plugged in and suffers long term thermal capacitor aging via this issue. this leads to cogging of the motor (THD in terms of speed micro jitter, which destroys the TT sound, period)
After all physical and electrical aspects are taken care of, you could finally be ready to set up the table. It is, admittedly, a long road to travel in this world of instant gratification, and the fact that LP-12 set up and maintence is definitely in the learned 'lore' catagory of secret information. Many things can go wrong in the set up of the table, if you don't know the things to do, the sequence and the reasons behind each step, and most importantly, exactly how to do them.
Level and stable surface, level and stable plinth, and then level and stable sub chassis, etc, etc, etc. All while tuning the suspension. A properly tuned LP-12 will not loose it's suspension alignment. A badly tuned one will go out again in as little as a day, and be very sensitive to enviromental concerns. Temp, humidity, etc..
A good turntable will illustrate flaws in parts and set-up very, very clearly. The LP-12 does that. An LP-12 looks deceptively simple. It is definitely not simple. Things are very well thought out. TO give you and idea, I gentleman who I work with, who knows vibration and noise control like no other has much respect for that table. He does make a nod to it's known flaws, but overall the table is a masterpiece of design, in some very specific ways that people miss....even though it is sitting right in front of them. As they miss these 'bits'..the proper set-up of the table then does not take place, as they don't understand the basic concepts of what exactly is going on, or the method by which the given 'cure' (for the noise issue) has been implemented.
After over 15 yeras of ownership, I can say I finally say I know how to set one up. It took ten years of slowly (at the odd time) running into the right people to figure this table out. Anyway, long stories, no time today. :)
I am neither a defender nor detractor on this subject of Ivor's table. :) |
|
|
| spikeyfaz |
| quote: | | After over 15 yeras of ownership, I can say I finally say I know how to set one up. It took ten years of slowly (at the odd time) running into the right people to figure this table out. |
Ten years!! :eek:
Jeez, no wonder I got shot of my LP12.
It took me about a week to figure out my idler-drive set-up. |
|
|
| choky |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
Setting up a LP12 suspensionis an art, and it is VERY critical to the 'sound' of the table. Critically important to do it exactly right. Doing so (getting it right) --is a learned art. Once known, it can be done in as short a time as 5 minutes. Getting to the point where one can do that..can take years and years of practice.
I explained the basic suspension part of it once on the AVS forum, go and do a search there for my posts on the subject, if you are interested. If the suspension is even slightly off, it will have no bass-to bad bass, at best. If properly set up, it will still have the midbass hump, but the rest will be very, very good. The springs and grommets die slowly, for example, and should be replaced if over 10 years old or if in difficult enviroments. Keep the chosen arm mass close to the optimum design point which is the Ittok mass. Belts must be in sound working order as well. Leveling, is also critical. Motors must be good,and the Valhalla board, if older, must be re-capped, as it is 'on' if the TT is plugged in and suffers long term thermal capacitor aging via this issue. this leads to cogging of the motor (THD in terms of speed micro jitter, which destroys the TT sound, period)
After all physical and electrical aspects are taken care of, you could finally be ready to set up the table. It is, admittedly, a long road to travel in this world of instant gratification, and the fact that LP-12 set up and maintence is definitely in the learned 'lore' catagory of secret information. Many things can go wrong in the set up of the table, if you don't know the things to do, the sequence and the reasons behind each step, and most importantly, exactly how to do them.
Level and stable surface, level and stable plinth, and then level and stable sub chassis, etc, etc, etc. All while tuning the suspension. A properly tuned LP-12 will not loose it's suspension alignment. A badly tuned one will go out again in as little as a day, and be very sensitive to enviromental concerns. Temp, humidity, etc..
A good turntable will illustrate flaws in parts and set-up very, very clearly. The LP-12 does that. An LP-12 looks deceptively simple. It is definitely not simple. Things are very well thought out. TO give you and idea, I gentleman who I work with, who knows vibration and noise control like no other has much respect for that table. He does make a nod to it's known flaws, but overall the table is a masterpiece of design, in some very specific ways that people miss....even though it is sitting right in front of them. As they miss these 'bits'..the proper set-up of the table then does not take place, as they don't understand the basic concepts of what exactly is going on, or the method by which the given 'cure' (for the noise issue) has been implemented.
After over 15 yeras of ownership, I can say I finally say I know how to set one up. It took ten years of slowly (at the odd time) running into the right people to figure this table out. Anyway, long stories, no time today. :)
I am neither a defender nor detractor on this subject of Ivor's table. :) |
love is love and pride is pride ;)
I agree with everything you wrote,and I admit that I certainly overreacted with "censored word " in my post:cool:
I grew up with good TTS and few other specimens of fine mechanical craft and,luckily,I have opportunity to know and learn how good TT (including LP12) work and sound.
but-I stay with claim that LP12 was (unfortunately?) just another object of sort of hifi mania or myth......almost as 301 and 401 in several last years.......
there is no TT bigger than life,and certainly there is no really bad TT,when is set properly and with care.
at least when music lover is using it |
|
|
| KBK |
true enough, I've managed to get good muisc out of $10-25 Duals and Kenwoods.
The plastic bodied Dual TT's of the mid 80's-90's were teriffic turntables for the money. I had lots of fun with them.
I'm NOT a fan of the suspensionless turntables that abound today. I'm also not a fan of any 'high mass' suspended platter tables, or ones made of machined metals. All very bad news when it comes to controlling resonace and noise.
After that, there are not may TT's left to choose from. You end up with the LP-12 and maybe, maybe 2 others. that's it. Thorens TD125 (MkII and III), maybe. Even it has more issues than a LP- 12. Low suspended mass is very, very, --very--- important, for reasons I won't get into. Then, the way the LP-12 platter is built. It takes 30 days to cut a LP-12 platter, because it is not thermally cycled or stressed during the cutting. It is cut a bit, then let sit. Next day, some more, and sit. One reason the TT costs so much. The result speaks for itself. The platter is the least ringing of all the platters out there..... WITHOUT the absolutely retarded and bass-ackwards addition of 'damping mass'. God, I can't believe people are soooo stupid on that subject. :) (Do me a big favor: remain stupid on that subject. Don't ever figure it out. Stay asleep. Forget everything you just heard - and go back to sleep) One single aspect of dozens of what the LP-12 has, which is more potential than most out there.
I have had the cash and many times have played with far more expensive tables. I have stuck with the LP-12, because like a fine hand built sports car that must be tuned directly to the driver's butt..by that very same driver....it can be made to perform. Persistence and thought are rewarded by this TT.
I'm not a 'Linne' by any means. I'm not religious about it.I t's the only Linn Piece I own, or will ever own.
You have to remember that a TT is basically a microscopic mechanical noise amplifier-generator-damping device, in 2 axis, but is sensitive in all 3. What might work well in measurement theory/design doesn't have much to do with complex waveforms from large and multiple octaves of a music signal- and the entire 'chain' that a working TT - is. One example is that the noise goes through different cycles of travel and propogation speed, depending in level and frequency...think about that for a second. One aspect of many. Mechanical noise in a solid medium will go through the same behavioural cycles that a signal in either water or an electrical signal in a wire will go throuugh. Multiple types of behaviour. extremely complex, and damping it dead with mass is simply a very, very bad idea.
|
|
|
| lndm |
| quote: | Originally posted by KBK
damping it dead with mass is simply a very, very bad idea.
|
At the risk of appearing ignorant, I thought of my wooden plinth a little like a speaker cabinet and lead lined it and cotton wadded it. Was that a bad idea?
Do you perhaps know of a good reference to explain why what you said about platters is so? (Apologies in advance if you've been asked that many times before). |
|
|
| mosin |
| I currently own a variety of turntables that include several Rek-O-Kuts both idler and belt, a Rega, a Russco, two Duals, three Lencos, two Thorens and the exalted Linn LP12 which I know how to competently tune. I would rate the Lenco in first place, dependent somewhat on the plinth build. A very close second is the Rek-O-Kut belt, but only when converted to a string drive. Third, but with a more laid back presentation is the Linn LP12. The others are doomed to longterm storage, except for the Russco which is destined to become a Keith Monks RCM clone. I believe that to accurately appraise these against one another, or other turntables, one would need to own them all at the same time, and have the ability to use them with a variety of tonearms and cartridges. Is the Linn good? Yes, it is. Is it best? Not here, it isn't. However, not all Linns are created equal, so I wouldn't take from it. Still, it generally sounds like a tweaked Thorens. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't terribly exciting either. |
|
|
| KBK |
The thermal stressing aligns and crystalises the aluminum. In a skin and through the depth. It gets turned into a ringing bell. Almost like aligning the molecules in a neo magnet, to obtain a polarized magnetic field. In this case, highly machined aluminum that has not been allowed to relax between cuttings (and learning when to stop is an art, I'd wager) will turn into a very nice long tailed resonant bell. Very bad, as it is long term noise.
Lead is not so bad, specifically when allied to the wood. You might try epoxying the lead to the wood. The better bond might (extremely likely to) work better. But, you might only have to use half the density in that case. This would make for more flexable lead,and thus more thermal dissipation. There are drawbacks, but you'll have to think through exactly what is going on. The lead is both good and bad. The higher the loading of the epoxy with the carbon (strands of you can get them) and the quartz silicate you can get to, the better.
Add pure carbon and fine quartz silicate to the epoxy. You may find you prefer that to the lead, instead of using it as an interface between the lead and the wood. Wood on it's own is quite amazing. You don't want to ruin the wood by soaking it, but to merely bond the now 'filled' epoxy to the wood.
I now have to stop, as I'm nearing the are where I get into proprietary understandings of how physical stuctures should be built for the audio business, and my business partner would simply kill me out of hand for sharing such. I do apologize if that comes off badly. I hate getting those phone calls where I get yelled at.
And yes, the Linn's are very variable. Be sure your LP12 has the proper curve at the tips of the upper plate, as thse tips of the metal are supposed to cut into the corners and the middle is supposed to press..but near the ends, there is supposed to be no contact. Each edge of the metal plate is supposed to look like an incredibly shallow 'M' shape, touching wood only at the bottom three points of the M. This is, of course, another critical point that most miss..and LP 12's can have this particular aspect damaged, and do, quite often. People sometimes see it, and try and fix it. Tighten those screws! They ruin the sound of the table in the process...and they ruin the plate.
idler designs, with record clamps, have the potential to sound more dynamic than any other table in existence. Most turntables suffer from a lack of linearity in extreme dynamics due to reearward 'slip' of the record itself from the lateral shift of the stylus under hard/fast/loud recorded dynamics. The idler fixes this, with massive torque. The differences are micro in size, yes..but the nature of the signal is micro,and thus the whole thing turns out to be very important. |
|
|
| fantasia |
WEll i have heard i LINn LP12 a long time agoit was pretty amazing at the time.
THE the most amazing TT i have ever heard was a Goldmund reference(that reference was a belt drive but very massive) from the mid 1980s about $20k australian dollars impressed me more than the Linn ever did ( I did listen to the GoldMund for about
35 minutes ) i would love to hear the LINN up against the Garrards 301, 401 and a similar heavy plinth Lenco HMMMMMMMMMMMMM
at least you wouldn't need to tweak it every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
|
| harwoodspark |
KBK, have you ever heard a Linn fitted with a dc motor? I fitted an Origin Live kit to mine years ago and it transformed it. The mid bass hump you refer to vanishes and moves the deck up to another level. Since fitting the dc motor I've never been tempted to replace it with something else.
The only idler drive tt I can say I liked was a Thorens TD124.I heard this deck through a pair of Leak TL 12 pluses driving Quad ESL53's.I can't remember what the cartridge was but the arm was a 3009. The power and authority was really quite startling. The Lenco I had then couldn't come close and I bought an Ariston RD80 as a stopgap.It had no power and certainly no authority but it wasn't coloured like the 124(probably it's only real fault) but it served me well until I bought the Linn.I think the worst thing I did was to swap my Empire with Mayware Mk4 for the Lenco. A decision I regret to this day.Now that was a turntable!To get back to the original thread, I remember when the Garrard Zero model came out.My mate replaced his SP25 mk111 with one.He never liked the arm and later bought a Thorens TD125 with SME series three.In comparison a revelation.
Si. |
|
|
| Triumph |
Have been very busy with tuning lately but need lots more time. I only concentrate on the deck at this moment. The arm is from later concern.
There have been lots of try and error and only a few were real improvements. I manage to get out a good controlled bass an mid but the rumble still is there.
The bearing puzzles me. Would like to see how the famous greasebearing from the Garrard 301 looks like. It is possible that some of the rumble is coming through (or from) the bearing :confused:
Need much more time before I am ready to compare it with a Linn or other fine TT’s. But I still believe in the zero100s. The idler drive gives an amount of control that suprised me.
So be continued, first a month holiday, no audio no internet. |
|
|
| Triumph |
A lot off experimenting has been done. In the following reports the most successful results.
First the bass, I found the bass from the Zero 100S not as tight and controlled as I hoped for. An idler wheel construction must be able to give a fine and controlled base!!
I noticed that when starting the motor there was a vibration and it is visible on the strobe that it takes a while (30 seconds) to run the platter on speed and to stop the vibration. The same happened when cleaning the record with a cleaning brush while turning, the speed slows quickly and a vibration occurs.
My conclusion: there isn’t enough grip from the idler wheel with the platter. Cleaning the idler wheel and the platter didn’t give any improvement. It took a little while but I managed to buy I new idler wheel (rumble sale for 2,50 euro!). After replacing the wheel the problems didn’t disappear. So it must be something else. The only thing left was a lack of force from the tiny spring. I shortened it 3 windings.
The result was a firm grip from the idler wheel. And the sound…. a much more and tighter bass. |
|
|
| Triumph |
The rumble problem 1
I used a test record and connect the Zero with a laptop oscilloscope. Doing that I discovered there was a resonance at about 150 Hz and 3000Hz. The problem was not the idler wheel but again bad connections from the cartridge holder.
I think this construction can cause a lot of problems and probably the reason why a lot of people hate this arm.
It is not only bad connections with the copper strips but also the sliding construction.
Cleaning the connectors and getting a firm connection between the sliding cartridge holder and the armslot solved the problem. |
|
|
| Triumph |
The rumble problem 2
As I told before for the rumble I am going to cheat a little. I changed my phono amp from a Cambridge audio 540p to a 640P model. The Cambridge 640P is a more expensive but still affordable, the 640P offers mm and mc stage, both uses discrete transistors, single ended class A with perfect RIAA equalization.
But the 640P features a subsonic filter!.
This filter cuts out very low frequency rumble and does this without changing the low quality (at least almost not noticeable by me). |
|
|
| Triumph |
The rumble problem 3
Solution 2 is cheating but it works. But this one solves its problem almost at the source. The platter of the zero is build with two parts, the black inner platter from steel which is driven by the idler wheel and directly screwed on top of this platter a aluminum platter with rubber mat.
I isolated the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. I use two kinds a black more firm rubber type (in a car store to stick side strips on a car) and a white foamy kind (just a plane double side tape.
And now you can adjust the aluminum platter exactly by turning the 3 screws. I isolated the screws also from vibration by using a thin piece of round foam.
Result a rumble reduction without quality loss of sound.
Sorry no picture of this solution. Coming soon I hope.
Conclusions after the changes in previous post.
1. After improving the spring force there is a much better base fundament. Now only a better cartridge can improve it. I think I am almost on the limit from the motor and idler construction. The cartridge is now the weakest link.
2. The cartridge holder is a weak construction. Clean it and be sure that it is firm in the arm holder. I think this is one of the reasons (or main reason) why the arm is so underappreciated.
3. The rumble is reduced a lot but still there is some. Only noticeable at silent music parts. Probable the platterbearing needs more attention.
To be continued. |
|
|
| hailteflon |
I disassemble and clean vintage turntables for an antique audio business. I usually work on older machines, but I did go through a Z100 a couple of years ago.
I recall being disappointed with what it looked like as compared to what it really was. You will probably get rid of this Z100 because it probably has thickened (oxidized) vegetable grease grease in it. The motor will probably wear out if you don't take it apart to clean and oil the bearings....They love MobilOne 5W30.
The problem with idler drives is not the idler (you are lucky if it doesn't have a flat spot) so much as motor vibration coming up through the deck. Garrard used good motor mounts and they minimized the vibration, but these are AC motors. It takes an expensive balance job to calm them down. Do to the modulating field I don't think they can be made motionless like a DC motor. I do recall a Telefunken AC motor that was so smooth that I thought it was bad until I touched the shaft and found that it was turning.
Put a plastic coke top on the deck with the motor running, but in neutral (idler not touching the platter). Put the stylus on the coke top. This will show you how much vibration is coming through the deck.
As is the case with the over-rated Duals, there is probably a large mass of gizmos and levers hooked to the tone arm shaft undernearth the deck. I get the Z100 mixed up with the Lab 80.
The Lab 80 is a MONSTER.
These high-end changers had some strong points, but as an integrated audio machine they are all dissapointments (by today's standards). One should recall that they were being compared to the hundreds of junko changers that had been on the market since the dawn of the LP era in 1948.
Also, I recall that after I had finished this Z100 it came back with no signal output. The signal wires were so thin that tarnish had literally dissolved them. Routing new wires is a test of patience. There us a hidden mystery screw under a plate in the tone arm as I recall... had to make a special screwdriver.
Anyhow, the Z100 is an advertizer's changer. The arm is a piece of junk with probably more error than a standard S-arm. Again, take a look under the deck and see how much mass is under there. With few exceptions the tonearm is pushing a "velocity trip" lever inward so it will trip the changer cycle at the end. The velocity trip cog is bouncing the lever back towards the tone arm with each revolution.
I have junked probably a hundred changers and manual turntables. Almost without exception the Dual platters are warped and the strobe wanders with the RPM. The belt drives have speed error as bad most of the older changers. The platters are not round.
The Technics Quartslock direct drive is probably the best deal ever for a budget turntable. Figure out how to put the headshell on properly and they work quite well. Get a Shure M97E and you'll have an excellent budget system.
If you get a belt drive, make sure it has a nylon or plastic inner hub that the platter sits on. They are usually machined round. Most of the Duals were probably round for several years, but if the aluminum is not cooled just right at the factory internal stresses in the platter will warp it over many years.
Audio is a game, play it well. Best Regards, Mark |
|
|
| Triumph |
Thanks for your comment Hailteflon, I am getting “love” sober again, it is maybe not the best TT around.
But then your coke top trick learned me something. There is rumble with motor off!! So improvements can be made. And I love to do some mechanics on this z100, sorry can’t help it still bit in love.
I have already cleaned the bearings and freshly greased them including the motor bearings, also a big difference for the rumble. |
|
|
| Triumph |
| Cheap trick for checking the stylus. A child microscope and a webcam with some tape. |
|
|
| Triumph |
It can go to 400x
Below a stylus at 100x |
|
|
| Triumph |
The competition has begun, first round the Garrard Z100s against Linn LP12.
My competitor is a LinnLP12 with a Lingo powersupply, a Benz Ace low output cartridge and a Creek phonoamp.
My team is a obsolete Garrard 100s idler drive, a Audio Technica AT71 or 95e (?) cartridge and a Cambridge Audio 640p phonoamp.
The rest of the gear: Accuphase amp and pointsource drivers from Tannoy.
Honest contest? The Linn is probably more then 10 times the price of mine. But we shall hear. |
|
|
| Triumph |
It did not needed hours of listening to conclude that the Linn is a different league than the Z100s. There is more overall dynamic, there is more bass but more important it is more direct, and the high is more at ease, it is without sharp ssss and ttt sounds and still there is more detail.
With a different league I mean really two leagues higher in the competition. But more important than that is what I learned from this first round.
What specially had my attention is to make a comparison in the amount of rumble. This is what I am working for in the last month’s, rumble and bass.
My experience:
1. In this session there is no more rumble on the Garrard idler drive to detect than on the Linn, there was almost no rumble detectable from both machines. Previous with my stethoscope there is noise from the motor and with the audio equipment at my own home there is some rumble detectable from the z100s, but only at a high volume level and with silent parts from for instance classical music. At home I have a Linn amp which gives more detail.
2. the bass from the Z100s is sloppy comparing to the Linn. It goes low (on my scope to 30Hz) but it is not strong enough and not fast enough. I had concluded this already at home comparing records with the same music on CD.
3. the high is not as pure as from the Linn, but still I think this is the best part from the Z100s
4. even changing cartridges did not gave improvement, waste off money to buy a better one. We tried:
a. MM AT71 (or 95e?) my standard cartridge doing OK
b. MM Shure V15 mkIII no better than the AT71
c. MC Linn Karma best result, but no big improvement
Experience 1 is the most important to me. In this session there is no more rumble to detect on the Garrard than on a Linn LP12!!!! After some simple modifications and to be honest most of it is simple standard maintenance, clean it and put the right oil and grease on the right place that is 90% of the work. The biggest modification I did was isolating the two platters from each other with double sided foam tape. But I think even when you remove the standard mat and replace it with a filth mat there is a some improvement and the rumble is reduced a lot. |
|
|
| Triumph |
For me no one can say the Garrard zero100s is a rumble machine it is simply not trough, if there is rumble than it is your own fault, do some maintenance. There is rumble but it is within limits.
Ok the rumble is no problem anymore, the next step is to improve the bass and the overall dynamics. I think an idler drive must be capable to give a tight and controlled bass.
As many of you have said on his forum the arm is a peace of junk and probably responsible for this. It is said the arm bearings are not from the best quality and there is a lot of mass below the arm because of the automatic mechanism. What makes it more difficult for me is that the bolt thread of the Z100s is probably UNF, BSW or Withworth or?? Difficult to get in Holland.
It is a waste off money to buy a high end cartridge.
So next step is to improve the arm. I have taken the arm apart and I think I already know what is responsible for the tolerance. At least I hope so. But this is another chapter, so to be continued. |
|
|
| NjoyTHEMUSIC |
Hi all -
I've just been given a Goldring GL88 (No Base or arm) for nothing !
Question: What should I do with it ?
Consider : I have just rebuilt an LP12 ; Moddified a Thorens TD166 (I really enjoyed experimenting with different armbase-mount materials) ; Overhaulled a Systemdek IIX 900 ; Did a little playing around with a PT Too - but the Thorens took more of my time up, so will have to get back to it ; The Oracle delphi III just sits there starring at me !!
Just to add insult to injury, you'll cringe when I tell you that about a year ago I threw out a Goldring GL75. I thought "..what a piece of ****...." but I did keep the platter and bearing (!)
I blame Ebay !!!
-Andy- |
|
|
| Triumph |
Andy,
The only thing I can say is that there is a difference in idler principle between a Goldring compared with a Garrard.
The Garrard idler wheel is horizontal, most of the others have vertical wheels. I choose the Garrard because I thought a horizontal idler is a better construction because it gives more torque. But maybe I am totally wrong. |
|
|
| Floric |
| quote: | I've just been given a Goldring GL88 (No Base or arm) for nothing !
Question: What should I do with it ? |
Want to sell it? I would be interested! I love my Idler. |
|
|
| NjoyTHEMUSIC |
Hi Floric -
What experiences have you had with the Goldring TT's ?
-Andy- |
|
|
| Triumph |
Hailteflon brought me on an idea; remove all the stuf beneath.
This is a picure before. |
|
|
| Triumph |
This is after half hour work.
All the metal is removed. The only sacrifice is that it is now a manual and no automatic TT anymore. |
|
|
| Triumph |
| This is the arm (from below) before removing unnecessary metal and plastic. |
|
|
| Triumph |
| This picture after removing. |
|
|
| Triumph |
| There was a lot of play in the upper part of the pivot. What I did was simply to glue the both parts with each other. Because I have made a manual TT of it is no longer necessary that these parts could turn. Almost all the play (it’s millimeters of play!!) comes from this upper part I glued with each other. |
|
|
| Triumph |
For me this was not enough stil there was some play left in the pivot.
I managed to get almost all the play from the entire arm. This by modification or adjusting almost all the hinges and bearings.
I was really proud on myself there was no sensible play left. Before modification there was millimeters of play!!!
The arm has made very rigid and feels firm. So this must sound wonderful. |
|
|
| Triumph |
The arm is now very rigid and feels firm. So this must sound wonderful.
My expectations where very high, all the play is removed the arm is rigid it must sound great. I am hoping for a fast bass and overall more dynamics.
But the trough is its sounds terrible. :mad: Bass is ok but there is a nasty resonance you can hear very easy especially with human voice. With a unmodified arm there is some to but difficult to detect. I was hoping that this will go away but after modification there is a lot more.
Now I am desperate I made arm without play and rigid but its sounds like jukebox TT.:bawling:
I am loosing my love for the Garrard Zero 100s.
What to do now????? Any suggestion to win the heart from Z100s again????
:confused: |
|
|
| Zen Mod |
Triumph:
made new heavy base
use just chassis
put another (good ) arm
and then you Linn will have some job to do - to compete ;)
quote from nutschell hifi ( and I know what they tallkin',just because I have 930,G401,L75 and L78 ) :
"Tech Note: If you've ever been in a traditional radio station with turntables - and I probably date myself here - you've seen a pair of heavy-duty, high-torque turntables in a gray steel console that weighs several hundred pounds. DJs can be clumsy in their hyperactive way, and the console has to be heavy enough to withstand a DJ colliding full-force against it without the phonograph jarring or skipping a groove. As a result, broadcast turntables, even as far back as the 1930s, were always mounted in consoles weighing hundreds of pounds.
When audiophiles listen to turntables that were actually used for AM and FM radio broadcasts - Garrard 301 and 401, Thorens TD 124, various models of EMT, various Technics models - they were all intended for mounting in far heavier consoles than typical lightweight domestic TT bases. The re-discovery of what appear to be massive TT bases is nothing more than using these turntables as they were originally meant to be used. And - surprise, surprise - they sound really good, just as they did back in the days of quality FM broadcasting. "
then,and only then-when you have heavy plinth -you can use full potential of sayed chassis........including better arm;
you can try -for test - to mount arm from Linn :devilr: and then hear results.......even if I have some doubts in compatibility |
|
|
| Zero One |
Triumph, sorry to hear that your still having resonance problems, just a little note that might help.
I have found that some resonances in the upper mid/highs are caused by the poor interfacing of the counterweight to the arm and the little dial ring attached to it . If you have tightened evrything else up the vibration will still have to go somewhere and this is where it sometimes ends up. The result is grainy vocals and general harshness in my experience.
Have you looked at this?
To tighten this up you could use blobs of blutac or wrap the shaft in a couple of layers of plumbers tape.
Al the best. |
|
|
| Triumph |
Zen Mod,
The sport is to get a descend sound with this smart looking arm. So I am not going to try another one, but you are right there are better arms that will better match this idler machine.
Zero one,
On this picture you can see that the weight is in rubber. Could this be the cause?
I really do not get why the sound is worse and I did so much to improve the arm. The is almost no play. It must sound well what a deception.
Any other suggestions??? |
|
|
| NjoyTHEMUSIC |
May I suggest a nice rusty old nail in the front end of the arm ?
It might get rid of those nasty noises you are talking about ?!?! :devilr:
:D
Seriously....I understand that maybe you are wanting to get a good sound outta the 'whole' package you have there, but I think you are kidding yourself. You will truly hear what the motor unit can give you if you replace the arm with something relatively cheap like a Linn Basik Plus tonearm (You will be very surprised- believe me !!)
If you just want to experiment for the hell of it, then please do so.
But if you really want to get access to some really better sounds, then its best to conceed that this arm ain't gonna do it for you.
Warmest regards,
-Andy- |
|
|
| Zero One |
Triumph. it is hard to tell from the pic if the counterweight could be a problem, check for any looseness at all. Rubber is an odd choice for a counterweight so I am not sure how it would translate to the sound, but it is entirely possible it is reintroducing vibrations back into the arm.
Another thing you can try is to wrap the arm with self sticking cloth tape (very thin stuff,) and underneath the tape in the centre par of the arm wrap about 4 layers of plumbers teflon tape....this may stop the resonances getting back into the system.
Overall I think the resonances you are describing mean there is looseness somewhere in the works.
One Q, what is the contact between the headshell and arm like, is there any play at all....this can wreak havoc even with the smallest amount of play. |
|
|
|
|
