| Greg3333 |
Does anyone have (or know where I could find) the specifications for the drivers used in the original REL Quake?
I've been in touch with REL and they say they don't have any information they could give me.
Thanks
Greg |
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| richie00boy |
I'm certain REL will have the information. Maybe you should have worded your request differently. They aren't going to give out their specs for people to build clones.
What do you need the specs for, what are you wanting to do? |
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| Greg3333 |
I already have two of the drivers, new old stock. Having the specs for them would help me to work out the best way to use them.
REL technical support were friendly but said they didn't have anything for that model. Obviously someone at REL will have the specs but I wouldn't expect them to go out of their way to find the information for me. |
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| pinkmouse |
| Are they the eBay 10" ones? If so, I have a pair as well, and once I get my new soundcard, I will be taking some accurate measurements with Speaker Workshop. |
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| Greg3333 |
:up:
That's the ones. I'd be very interested to see what your findings are.
Greg |
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| Ivo_Hristev |
Hi there,
My advice is to measure the desired parameters. That`s the right way ( for me ).
Regards |
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| richie00boy |
| OK now I see. Yes I second the suggestion to measure your own specs, even if you had them from REL. It's not too hard if you have a computer with soundcard, power amp and voltmeter capable of reading millivolts. If you are interested I can send you a draft version of a guide I have written which I would appreciate feedback on. |
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| phase_accurate |
I'd go one step further and run them in a bit first. And then I'd measure them. ;)
Regards
Charles |
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| pinkmouse |
| Ok, as promised the first set of results, before running in. |
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| Greg3333 |
| Pinkmouse, thanks for posting your results. |
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| Greg3333 |
| Edit: double post. |
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| Ivo_Hristev |
Thats` it!
You can run run the measurements several times ( itf the software allows it ) and take the mean value, thus the curve will look smoother and much more pretty. |
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| richie00boy |
| Looking forward to seeing the results when run in Pinkmouse :) |
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| pinkmouse |
| Just firing up the PC. :) |
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| pinkmouse |
| OK, here we go after 12 hrs of 20Hz. Vas up a bit, Fs down. Much as I would expect really. I may well knock up a box to test Vas with the volume method, just confirm, but I don't have huge doubts about the above figure. |
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| pinkmouse |
| Oh, and for those that asked, here's a couple of pics of the drivers. This one shows the front, and as you can see from the ruler, they are actually 8" drivers really. |
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| pinkmouse |
| And the back, with the only markings shown: |
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| richie00boy |
| Remind me, are these used sealed in the Quake? |
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| pinkmouse |
I think the originals were, but I suspect electronics...
Time to fire up Unibox I think. |
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| pinkmouse |
OK, I found a rough 32L box I could use, it's a bit leaky, but it will do for a quick check. Knocking off 2l for the driver, we get the results below. I suspect this is as good as it gets. Definitely not a sub driver I feel.
Hmm, now what to do with them? Put 'em back on eBay? :) |
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| richie00boy |
| It's the high Vas that lets it down. Of course I don't know what Xmax is either. I assume your BL figure is just some random? |
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| consort_ee_um |
You could try my favourite alignment the vented Keele one where you have a second order high pass filter giving 6 db of boost at the port tuning frequency. Gives Vbox 71 litres
26 Hz -3db point (also 26Hz is the box tuning and filter peak freq)
On Winisd you go for 3dB boost because it works in power not voltage btw |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by richie00boy
Of course I don't know what Xmax is either. I assume your BL figure is just some random? |
By looking at it whilst running in, (not really the way to do it I know! ), I would guess Xmax is around 10mm. As for Bl, I think that's just the SW default value in there
| quote: | Originally posted by consort_ee_um
You could try my favourite alignment the vented Keele one where you have a second order high pass filter giving 6 db of boost at the port tuning frequency. Gives Vbox 71 litres
26 Hz -3db point (also 26Hz is the box tuning and filter peak freq)
On Winisd you go for 3dB boost because it works in power not voltage btw |
Sounds interesting. Got any references? Still comparatively big box though. Might be time to have a look at MJK's tables. |
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| consort_ee_um |
References are on Don Keeles website dbkeele.com
http://www.dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(1975-07%20AES%20Published)%20-%20New%20Set%20of%20VB%20Alignments.pdf
Equations 7 and 8 on page 355 are the key . Do not worry it starts on page 351:D |
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| pinkmouse |
| Thanks, I'll print it off and have a read. |
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| timmoah |
Hi
Great to finally find some info on these drivers. Really handy!
I’ve got a pair myself.
You guys seem to be way ahead of me but for what its worth...
It had me confused for a while, these are not the drivers from the Rel Quake that’s around now, the little square one shown below (hopefully). They’re the drivers from the original Quake, the predecessor to the Q50 and Q100 that was one of the very first Rels, around mid nineties if memory serves me correctly.
Take a peak at:
http://www.zenn.com.sg/Rel_Quake.jpg
Anything look familiar?
I think they are 10 inchers (or a smidge under) most drivers seem to be measured in total including the surround. So most 12ins actually have around 10.5 – 11 inch cone and most 10 ins are 8.5 ins or so cone wise.
Haven’t done any measuring yet but subjectively quite impressed, deeper sound than expected, although it was never going to be seismic. And quite a tight too.
A kind of halfway house between a bass driver and a true sub.
The original quake had a 40 or 50 watt amp, so I don’t think these speakers were designed for anything too dramatic, quite a small linear excursion, but for the money not bad at all. |
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| pinkmouse |
| Got any dimensions for the original box? And more detail/pics of your project would be interesting as well. |
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| timmoah |
Hi Pinkmouse,
I don’t have any specs on paper but from the picture I’d guess dimensions around 40cm by 30cm by 25 cm or a bit over. About 30litres.
Stuffing with the right filler might bring that up to 40L which maybe where that figure came from.
From memory I think it had a freq response down to around 30 – 35 hz, but I cant remember if that was a true –3db or cheeky ‘in room response’, I suspect the former.
Sealed box.
REL will probably be able to fill you in on the full specs. They are very cagey about giving away any info on the internals but pretty good otherwise. I’m sure they will have a brochure or instruction manual lying around somewhere. Mr Lord builds his subs to last a long time so I would expect support to still be available.
Haven’t got any pics yet, haven’t got much of a project yet! |
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| pinkmouse |
| Well, I put my issues with my AV15 to the side for the moment, so I could get this finished. The box was a 50L test box, which is why it looks a bit rough, but to be honest, this is going to partner my powered JBL LSR25P minimonitors which get used for mobile monitoring a lot, so they will get a certain amount of beating. I still have to do some testing to finalise the crossover, but overall, not bad for the money. |
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| richie00boy |
Aha, another fan of No More Nails I see ;) Have you ever had any issues with it? I was going to use it for the fancy veneered box, but people keep telling me to use PVA wood glue or other 'proper stuff', but I find NMN brilliant and wonder if it's just them stuck in their ways.
What's the little plate amp? |
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| pinkmouse |
Ha! :)
The NMN is only used to seal off the hole I drilled for the speaker cable for the isobaric driver, the rest of the construction was done with PVA. I suspect the water based NMN is actually just a thick PVA, maybe with just a little filler for gap filling, and as such, I'm sure it would be fine for box construction.
The plate amp is one of the Maplin Mosfet lookie-likie jobs, bolted to an old hard drive cooler heatsink. The separate panel has power and signal inputs, which will be upgraded to XLR once the crossover is finalised.
As it is, I still can't stop fiddling, I just took the feet off to taper them as I didn't like the look as was, and of course give them a coat of Turbosound Blue (Tm) to match the rest of the box. |
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| pinkmouse |
| This thing kicks quite nicely, not really loud as is to be expected, but for it's purpose, it works well. Box specs are below if anyone else wants to use them. I used an EBS style tuning. |
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| dublin78 |
Hi Pinkmoose
I know that it is a while since this thread was last fresh.
I am sorry, but I don't understand the box specs that you posted - please could you help out a sub noobie?
1. What volume did you end up using?
2. What was the port width and length?
3. Next to the graph it states "2x Rel 8"" Did you use two drive units? If so, in series or parallel?
4. Earlier in the thread you spoke of finalising the crossover. I thought that the plate amps usually took care of this?
Thanks in advance.
Michael |
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| pinkmouse |
Hi Michael
The specs are all in the pic above, you just have to know what to look for. ;)
Box size is Physical Vb, and Inside Port Diameter and Port length give the other numbers you need.
As for your other Qs, yes I used two drivers mounted face to face, (see pic below), in an Isobarik configuration, and the crossover had to finalised as I was building it from scratch, not using a commercial plate amp. |
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| dublin78 |
Thank you Pinkmoose - I will get cracking now.
Photos will be posted upon completion... |
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| camt1 |
I too purchased two of these as a first sub project ,unfortunatley i relied on the specs supplied and used them to calculate the compoents for esp's linkwitz circiut.Each driver is loaded into a 20l box and driven from a 50w amp crossed at 80 hz .Sound was not bad but given pinkmouses results the high vas makes the linkwitz circiut wrong with a definate hump from instead of flat response i expeceted (although they still sound pretty good for a 10£ speaker but do need a lot of power ) ,time to recalulate and get the soldering iron out.
Anybody else done any projects with these drivers be intrested to know your findings . Andy |
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| camt1 |
Hi i recalculated the vas using the spreadsheet on richie00boys website using the following figures
D=210mm
Sd=346cm
Vtb=19l
Fs=32hz
Fc=55hz
This gives a calculated vas of 40l as the original specifications ,i wondered if these results are correct as i am new to this speaker design theroy ,any replies would be helpfull ( would save rebuilding my linkwitz circiut ).
Andy |
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| richie00boy |
OK, let's see if we can verify your figures.
D is the piston diameter, you should have measured this with a ruler as the cone diameter plus a third of the surround at each side.
Sd is calculated for you.
Vtb is the volume of the sealed test box you used. So this was 19 litres accounting for the volume taken up by the drive unit?
Fs is the free air resonance frequency of the drive unit.
Fc is the resonance of the drive unit in the (19 litre) test box. This should be between 1.5 and 2.0 times Fs if the test box volume is right. So you seem to be OK on that.
So if all that is right then your Vas is right :) 38.75 litres I make it. |
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| dublin78 |
I have made a bit of a cock-up.
I purchased 4 of these units, together with 2x 150W RMS into 8 ohms plate amps, so that I could make a pair of subs to complement a brace of Fostex FE127e in monopole ML-TLs.
I had forgotten that space was a consideration, so I decided to build just one and save the spare units for another project.
My height and depth limits are both 32cm, so I was drawing up plans for a 45 litre cabinet (wide), when I realised that because the lower driver sticks out approx 13cm from the cabinet, the remaining height of the cabinet interior was insufficient to mount my plate amp (26.5cm x 26.5cm) into.
Are there any other designs for these drivers that will suit my physical perameters?
Or any solutions to my woes? |
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| richie00boy |
| Can you recap what your box design is? Are you using two drivers in one box, mounted compound push-pull? If not then why does the drive unit stick out? |
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| dublin78 |
richie00boy. See post 34.
I was proposing to use Pinkmouse's design. It is isobarik.
The box volume should be 45 litres, with a 8cm diam port of 50cm length (from post 32).
I would be grateful for any suggestions. |
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| richie00boy |
If your space is really fixed then all I can think of is making the box smaller and accepting higher F3, or adding more boost if it can take it.
edit: no that won't work at all, it's a ported box isn't it.
Maybe use one driver sealed and Linkwitz Transform? Might be a bit too limited on the SPL you can get though. |
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| dublin78 |
Hi richie00boy
You appear to be an expert on all matters regarding subs. I have read many of your posts, and I am grateful for your input.
I am not looking for really deep bass, just something to complement my Fostex mains and take up the slack where they loose out.
My preference is for two small down firing subs, ported or sealed. This will give me more flexibility in the future and allow me to crossover higher.
Can you suggest a design 30-35 litres, perhaps a little higher? I could purchase new drivers if needed.
The amps are quite powerful and I can use them in a juicy, more adventurous set-up later, but for the time being, I am aiming for compact and cheap.
Thank you for your help. |
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| richie00boy |
Thanks for your kind comments.
I would say try with what you have for now, you can learn from it if nothing else. As your preference is for music it relaxes the SPL requirements somewhat.
Are your Fostex speakers horns? If they are more conventional I think a pair of sealed subs each with a single REL driver might do it.
Or you could do two drivers per box, one on each side so they mechanically cancel out the boxes tendency to travel. |
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| dublin78 |
Thanks again richie00boy.
What internal volume do you recommend, or is it not particularly crucial?
Best regards.
Michael |
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| richie00boy |
The volume is a trade off between how much power you need to throw at it to hit a desired SPL, and how much power it will thermally take. And physical size of course.
Did you measure the parameters in the end? |
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| dublin78 |
The perameters of the drivers are as per post 15.
I think that I will build two subs, sealed with single downfiring drivers, and see how I go. The question is what internal volume to use?
The Fostex drivers are in a ML-TL enclosure, not horns, so they fall off at about 80-100Hz.
I have two of these drivers for sale!
Feel free to make an offer (UK only). I will post on the Trading Post after a while, but I may as well offer them to the viwers of this thread. |
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| richie00boy |
I was concerned if you had horns the small subs would not be able to keep up.
I'll see if I can come up with an optimum volume for LTing. It won't be until Thursday evening at the earliest though. |
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| dublin78 |
Thank you richie00boy.
I look forward to your findings.
What is LTing? I can do some research then. |
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| richie00boy |
| Linkwitz Transform. I thought I had already mentioned that. |
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| Sonusthree |
What a coincidence!! I've just bought two of these, the MDF has arrived and I've now got a jigsaw (all from Ebay).
This is my first sub project so it's good to have the 'real world' TS parameters.
I'm only going to use these for music so no great SPL's are required and they will be a stereo pair and downfiring (to be more child friendly!).
Richie: I'd also be very interested in your LT volume findings.
Regards,
Martin. |
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| pinkmouse |
Well, I've missed a bit of this thread! Just to say, mine are still running well, and I'm quite happy with the project. For the money, they take some beating.
| quote: | Originally posted by camt1
Hi i recalculated the vas using the spreadsheet on richie00boys website using the following figures
D=210mm
Sd=346cm
Vtb=19l
Fs=32hz
Fc=55hz
This gives a calculated vas of 40l as the original specifications ,i wondered if these results are correct as i am new to this speaker design theroy ,any replies would be helpfull ( would save rebuilding my linkwitz circiut ).
Andy |
Andy, (if you're still around ;) ), did you measure those parameters yourself? Just wondering why they're so different to mine. |
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| camt1 |
| Hi pinkmouse ,i have gone over my old calculations i was using ESPs linkwitz transform calculator and the original from the linkwitz website ,this gave me the calculated fc for the box i was using 19l sealed.This is where i have gone wrong as i used the given vas of 40l . I saw your results on this thread which were different from the ones supplied with the driver which made my linkwitz calculations wrong. To prove my original calculations I wrongly used my calculated Fc with richieboys spreadsheet which not suprisingly gave the original vas of 40l, |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by camt1
...To prove my original calculations I wrongly used my calculated Fc with richieboys spreadsheet which not suprisingly gave the original vas of 40l... |
Circles. Been there, done that! :)
Hey, whereabouts are you in our little town? I'm up by the station. |
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| camt1 |
| Hi pinkmouse ,daft mistake now i can see what i have done ,i am on the big hill in Walderslade Andy |
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| Colin |
| I haven't joined the owners club but also spotted these on eBay. The dealer (BK Electronics, I suspect) told me he had 200 of them! When I saw the price, I wondered about running 4 or 8 in a genuine infinite baffle (ie a wall). |
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| pinkmouse |
| I exchanged a couple of emails with the guy, and I'm not sure he is connected to BK. He seemed a little vague when I asked about things he should have known about if indeed he did work for them. However, he did seem like a nice guy for all that, and was as helpful as could be expected, and the drivers certainly are a bargain if you have a use for them. |
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| Sonusthree |
He does seem to sell a lot of them. I should also add that mine arrived very well packaged.
I'm halfway through building some 60 'ish litre sealed cabinets for mine. I wish I had more tools! An 8 quid jigsaw doesn't seem to cut it! :D
Oh well, it's another lesson learnt. Invest in tools or look like a fools. (Do you like that? I just made it up!) |
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| PaulSmith |
So what is the VAS of this driver then :confused: ,
Paul. |
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| pinkmouse |
What????
A mere mortal, doubting the word of a diyAudio moderator? What is the world coming to!
I despair of you my child...
:D
al/ likes everyone to measure for themselves. |
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| PaulSmith |
I really would've prefered a straight forward response,
Without all the Sarcasm :nownow:.
Paul. |
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| pinkmouse |
Sorry if you misunderstood my joke, but I was making a point. Yes, I've measured them, and my end results match up well to those measurements, but as far as any reader of this is concerned, my results may be equally as wrong, right or imaginary as the published ones.
My point was- this is all just bytes whizzing across the ether, don't take anything you read on the internet as fact, test for yourself. :) |
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| dublin78 |
Hi
I still have four of these drivers and want to build two active subs.
Pinkmoose's isobarik design is too large (for me) at circa 45 litres, given that one of the drivers protudes from the bottom, raising the cabinet base considerably.
Are there any other suggestions apart from a single downfiring driver with LT correction? How about running two drivers working on opposite sides? Maybe with one being passive? I would like to keep to an internal volume of 20 - 30 litres.
If I am going to go with a single downfiring design, I may change my plans and splash out on those Monolith drivers on ebay.
Best wishes. |
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| pinkmouse |
| The isobarik configuration is useful here as it halves the required box volume. Any other configuration of two drivers will double the needed box size. The high Vas is the killer here. I don't have time to sim it, but you could try a smaller sealed box, again isobarik, but with EQ, that might suit you better. |
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| dublin78 |
Could I use a design like this?
What internal volume would I need? In main chamber? In chamber between drivers?
"Bass is claimed as being tighter, faster, more accurate and more pure" This suits me as it will be used for music duties. |
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| pinkmouse |
| That's isobarik as well, only without some of the distortion cancellation that mounting the drivers face to face achieves. If you have Excel, then I would recommend downloading Unibox, and do some playing around. |
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| richie00boy |
Michael, in response to your message, I'm happy to help. I would just make the cabinet as big as you can then let the Linkwitz Transform do the work.
Here is the modelled response using the data measured by Pinkmouse.
I went for 25 litres as by the time bracing and electronics are accounted for you will be upto about 30 litres net, which was your upper limit I believe.
As Fc is approx 78 Hz I would aim for an octave lower which will require approx 12 dB gain. This should be quite nice for music in a small-medium sized room.
This is all ballpark stuff. Once you build the real enclosure you should measure Fc and Qtc and design the Linkwitz Transform from that data.
I have a box design spreadsheet on my website that might be useful. It's in .ods format which is OpenOffice 2 (free). |
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| camt1 |
well been as i have 2 more of these drivers ,i have started again .I have put pinkmouses figures into winsd and have been thinking about an isobaric configuration using a QB3 alignment which gives the following results
Vbox 39.55l
Tuning F 34.54Hz
Port D 8.2cm
Port L 27.49
I was going to use an EBS alignment but winsd was giving a larger box volume of 88.19l which was undesirable . I have made a box out of some old chipboard as a test and hopefully will have it up and running in few days .Will let you know if it works.:)
andy |
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| dublin78 |
Hi campt1
Please could you provide us with a diagram? |
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| dublin78 |
Hello
I am no longer planning on using these drivers for my project, so I have four for sale.
£10 each plus postage.
e-mail me for details. |
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| swin1 |
| Anyone measured the current REL quake drivers, the 8" ones? |
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