| no xo |
| Has any one han expirience with these? The reason I ask is, I built the recommended horn for the FE206ESR and I have a peak around 150hz to 200hz, that makes them hard to listen to. The drivers have over 150hrs. on them, so I think it`s the horn. Would these reflectors or stuffing the cc help reduce this peak. I sed 1/4" adheasive foam covered with wool felt behind the driver, and everything else is according to Fostex plan. They are located in the room where I`ve never had a problem before. I feel I should have built Ron`s Dallas horn despite my limited woodworking skills..... |
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| Taperwood |
No xo,
Although I have a different driver (108 Sigma) and different enclosure, I have similar questions: How to deal with frequency response once the things are built. So far, I have found that getting accurate measurements is far more difficult than dealing with the problem :).
I did learn that near-field measurement of the horn mouth is accurate (up to 500Hz), so you might want to try that first to see exactly what you are getting from it.
I assume you have tried different room placements for the speakers and yourself. A room node might be messing up what you are hearing.
Doug |
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| no xo |
| Thanks for the reply. I don`t think it`s a room node, the Proac Response 1sc`s with sub, and the standard version of the FE206E in recommended horn did not have a problem. In fact both measured a little dip in that range, which is probably why the peak bothers me. Have you added stuffing in the cc or any other mods. The more I listen to these, the less I like them. After spending a fair amount of time and money I`m kinda bummed. If I turn up the volume to moderate levels they get worse and worse. Compared to the other horns (FE206E) there is just something wrong. I even wonder if my glue job was bad and there are some interior panels vibrating. I sure hope not because everything is square and I have lots of clamps and put 2 100lbs weights with serious clamps when I glued the final side on. Whatever I did, I messed up somewhere......now can I fix it? |
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| Taperwood |
Yeah, if you don't like them, then you have to do something. That's the bottom line, I guess.
I'm sure your glue job is fine. That would be my least worry.
I did try suffing in the cc on mine, but it sucked too much life out of the midrange and messed up the soundstage. I don't recall it affecting the mid-bass, though.
You could try building an A/B switch like I use. It's really simple. The thread is about the middle of page 2 now. That way you can tweak a single speaker and compare it to the other. Start with at least 50% changes. For instance, if you want to see what effect stuffing has, take half the stuffing out of one speaker, or add 50% more, and then start narrowing it down to what helps with your problem. The switch will give you instant feedback of your changes.
I'm sorry you're going though this. I've been down that road too.
Doug |
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| no xo |
| Thanks for the advice. I would not have thought about changing one and comparing it to the other. I tried to keep stuffing minimal so dynamic range would be maximal. I plan to make some changes tonite and will post as progress is made. I have to fix these, there are positives on their overall sound, but that peak needs to go down some and we`ll be alright. |
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| bassrogue |
NO XO,
I ran into the same problem on my 208 sigma horns. More stuffing in the cc solved the problem.
I'll be watching your progress as I intend to build the same horn for my 206esr's. |
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| no xo |
| Thanks for the reply. Last nite I added some polyfil to the cc and that helped, so I think we`re on the right track. I also plan to add damping to the magnet`s back and side, and put a piece of deflex at the bottom of the cc. I`ll try these one at a time so I don`t over do it. The polyfil did not hurt the dynamics and helped without any obvious negative side effects. I will post my progress.....I hope. |
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| Taperwood |
That's really interesting because I got the exact opposite when I put stuffing in the cc. Any amount sucked the life out of them. I guess that's why there is no definative guide to tweaking speakers :)
I still haven't tried damping the magnet yet, however, and you have inspired me to get off my butt and do it!
Doug |
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| no xo |
| Taperwood, what kind of stuffing did you use and how much of it? I used a small amount of polyfil from Parts Express, and pulled it apart as much as I could so it was loose, and filled the cc to about the bottom of the driver. The resonance is not totally gone and it sounded better,but my Rat Shack SPL meter deteced only 1db reduction, which I presumed would be inaudible...or incorrectly measured. The more I use the meter, the happier I am with tuning by ear. As in health and fitness, the mirror tells you more than the scale. |
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| Taperwood |
Oh I just use the polyfill from the fabric store. I guess I'm not that picky. I've heard it's the same stuff. I tried about five different iterations of stuffing in the cc. After that I sort of gave up trying to get any improvement for now and concentrated on other things.
Ditto on the meter. It's a double-edged sword, and don't forget it's only accurate to +/- 2 dB. When I do frequency sweeps with it, it's always off by 1 or 2 dB when I return to my 1000Hz reference. I've decided the meter is good for zeroing in on what you know is wrong, but for fine tuning the ear is best.
If you stumble across anthing that tones down the mid/upper range a bit (3500-7500Hz), let me know.
Doug |
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| no xo |
| Last nite I covered the magnet with foam tape,1/4'' thick X 1 & 1/4" wide, basically weather stripping, and covered the bottom of the cc with 1" deflex. I kept the polyfil in and moved it up so most of it is directly behind the driver. I only had 45 min. to listen, and I`m very happy with the results. That sort of droning resonance is pretty much gone and now, I really like these speakers. If my opinion changes with extended listening I`ll post what I hear...at this point huge improvement. |
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| Taperwood |
That's great news. I'll try some of your ideas when I get the time and see what happens.
Doug |
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| noxonewbie |
Doug,
I'm NOXO's friend with the camera, finally got in the forum to upload the pics of the finished horns. I was having some difficulty resizing them so as to post them. Anyway here is a couple of shots. |
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| noxonewbie |
Ok, I'm still working on this to get decent pics up. here's some more views
Mike |
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| noxonewbie |
Well looks like I can post the same pic twice easy enough let me try another.
Mike |
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| Taperwood |
Cool! Nice work on the cabinets. They are bigger than I imagined, looking at the plans. Are they in cherry?
Doug |
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| noxonewbie |
Hi,
No they are done in Walnut with a clear finish, and yes they are BIG. We estimate they weigh around 150# each.
Mike |
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| Pendergast |
I think they are magnificient! Congratulations on what looks like a really nice job!
We picked the wood for mine: Russian wild cherry tree. I cannot wait to start!
We hired a wood worker to cut the pieces right and the whole thing will come down to about $220 canadian (wood and cuts). We did not have much of a choice as the stores did not seem to offer much help, and we are not equiped to cut this accurately. But we should be able to glue it right!:D |
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| ScottG |
Here is an interesting experient that should not cost anything other than time:
1. remove all stuffing - except minimal amounts on the driver frame/magnet used to reduce reflections from bleeding through the cone. Try to make sure such material provides as little acoustic resistance as possible.
2. stuff the horn mouth with a pillow.
Note that it will attenuate the response from the lower midrange down (considerably), BUT typically something extraordinary occurs with respect to the mids and upper mids (..that is not related to simply attenuating the midbass). |
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| blumenco |
yeah in alot of builds stuffing the mouth kills bass. acoustic impedance is one of the prime determiners of the effect of qts on bass from a horn. you change the design by changing acoustic impedance and would need to shorten or lengthen the horn as a result.
one thing to try is to change the dimentions of the compression chamber itself. you can't make it much bigger, but you can make it smaller. that would raise the resonance frequency of the compression chamber to a point that looks like what would normally be a dip at 500 hz... the japanese seem to like bags of sand.... THIS ALSO provide mechanical damping instead of acoustic damping. mechanical keeps the rest of the horn from resonating. acoustic would kill the sound.
will this work? no idea, but I certainly see alot of CC with some sand bags, both on japanese websites and in the reccommended enclosures. I think that sometimes, especially with the special edition stuff from fostex, the sortof assume that we know what to do with them, and how to get them to our personal tastes so they give us sparing instructions. interpretation and creative implimentation brings about the very audio society we have here, no doubt.
in BLH I find that polyfill, deflex, synthetics, is geerally undesirable. instead stick with natural materials. river rock, sand, wool felt.
the wool felt I like is that used to seal doors with. found in most hardware stores.
for the magnets I glue on wool felt to just the front side of the magnet. this takes away that immediate reflection.
some can be used in the compression chamber. gradually increasing (very gradually) with alot of listening in between tweaking.
I find generally that in alot of builds with these high efficiency BLHs that people use wayyy too much damping. at least in my opinion. we do not want to use an anvil to smash an ant, as in the rest of the world of overbuilt, overengeneered, and ultimately bad sounding audio.
in 99db efficient enclosures, we get that much more sensitivity to change. a handful of stuffing gets amplified into a truckload... same as the bass is so magically acoustically reinforced. are our souls sensitive enough to weigh the small changes we must make in this realm?
also, the p-16 sound reflectors can have a profound effect on the overall sound of a horn. I think that in alot of fostex reccommended enclosures, they benifit immensely from the use of such. course, that means that you have to pay 10 bucks a hit, and fostex makes a little more money, but the p-16s are awesome because they do not kill the sound at all, the clean it. yay! implimentation matters though... ideal placement can be different from room to room.
well, hope any of that helps. these backloaded horns are strange but ultimately very very rewarding beasts. I by no means claim to have all the answers here. just suggestions from having tried everything else and simply come back to natural materials myslelf. honestly, I have heard verry few back horn setups I considered to be even remotely refined and acceptable to listen to. I am not even sure why I try sometimes. t.v. run run, ipod, loud music, next big thing, we loose our finer sensitivities. back loaded horns take a long time to tune to a room. I am working on a year now on the sound of the 166es-r horns I have. still tweaking minorly. getting more refinement daily. have patience, grasshopper.
Clark Blumenstein |
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| blumenco |
scott g, I agree with you about the upper mids magic from mouth stuffing.
I beleive it is caused from an effect of mechanical damping slightly within the horn mouth.
then there is also an effect I like to call dynamic masking (psychological).. |
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| Jrook |
Hi Mike, I found your thread from" 206ESR first impressions"
first, Nice job with the cabinets they look very nice indeed!
As for the sound and all the tweeks you are doing I must agree strongly with mister Blumenstein's comments. When I first built the 166ES-R I too found several anomolies in their frequency response. After more than year of trial and error lsitening tests, etc etc. I must tell you that I've gone full circle.
Here is a picture of my finished speaker http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/id1.html
Let me share with you some of my conclusions to overall performance. Firstly lets make sure that we agree that these drivers need at least 600-1000 hours of play time before they settle in. Thats not a typo I really mean 600-1000 hours of play.
Second, do not try to contour the response before this break-in period by adding polyfill to the CC. I did this in the beginning and it ruined the speaker. Listen, the men who designed this enclosure knew what they were doing and they intended for the CC to be open. That doesn't mean you can't control reflections by placing 1/8 in wool felt on the back and bottom of the CC but filling the CC with poly fill changes the volume of the CC and that's a no no.
For me I settled on reducing the cc volume by about 1/4 using sand bags. This controlled the bass response without mucking up the midrange. Dampening the basket and the face of the magnet are both fine, but the big change will come with adequit break-in. Before I hit 500 hours I thought I had some broken speakers and I was very unhappy. But at about 550 hours the highs stared to really smooth out by 6 to 700 hours they were starting to sound down right silky. While that was happening the bass began to really show it's quality not to mention extention and power.
The last thing I found to be essential was room placement. BLH
by their nature are intended to be placed near the back wall preferably in the corners. As you can see from my pictures I place them right in the corners with only about 6 inches behind them and toed in so they intersect with an imaginary point about 3 feet in front of my head. The speakers are 9 ft apart and my listening position is 14 ft back. At present my 166ES-R's have bloomed into the most musically satisfying transducer I have ever owned period. Don't be discouraged. your speakers will balance out they just need some time. I suggest letting them play at moderate volume with some strong fundemental bass music. Something with a lot of dynamics letting the voice coils get a good work out. Get them away from the room center and back against the walls and let em rip. I know in time you will be very satisfied with your speakers. Remember that the cabinet also needs time to settle in.
Do you think a Stradivarious sounded good right out of the box......not on your life.
Cheers, have fun,
Jrook:wave: |
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| no xo |
| Thanks for everyone`s compliments and encouragement. So far this has been a love/hate affair with these. I can tell they have the potential to be wonderful speakers that will stand the test of time, but there will be a period of adjustment. I put about 150 hrs. on them before I finished the horns, and already notice improvements over time. I`ve always wondered if the horn itself, needs break in, like the driver do. I thought I noticed that with the standard FE206E horns I built last year for my HT system. Maybe I`ll remove the stuffing in the CC except the padding on the magnet and directly behind the driver, but I`ll let everything break in some more. All comments/advice welcome and appreciated. This is a great hobby. |
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| Pendergast |
Mine are almost done; my father worked on them and offered them as a Christmas gift! (I still have to pay for the material but he did an amazing job!).
We have not yet put the secondary layer on the sides, so we will do some listening on them tomorrow morning before.
These babies are really heavy! |
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| no xo |
| Let us know what your initial impression of the sound. After break in and possibly some stuffing, I hope you are as happy as I am now. You can tell from my previous posts that I got off to a rough start with these. A little judicious stuffing and lots of break in and now I`m very happy. Hope you get to happy faster. Ray |
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| Pendergast |
no xo,
Here are some of my impressions.
Please consider that I have yet to add the second layer of plywood on the sides. I also have not yet put the 2 long vertical plywood sticks at the rear. So none of this is truly completed, and of course, there has been no coating of any kind on them. They look beautiful with that pale blonde colour though! Some detail on the construction: no screws were used. Instead, wood studs were used to supplement the adhesive. Of note, instead of the 4 sheets, we were able to use only 2, with some to spare.
The drivers had been installed in sheets of 3/8" plywood and used as open baffles for about 6 months, so the burn in has been extensive, but outside the cabinet.
I had some reservations about having the cabinet made: the Open Baffle style was rather nice so far, and only because the wood had been purchased already, I felt compelled to make them. Although I was to make them with my father, he decided to make them. So I was quite surprised when I visited him to found out they were completed.
Set up. The amplifier used is a basic S.E.X. amp from bottlehead, an amp I made for my brother which provides about 2 watts. When these speakers will be brought at my place, an enhanced S.E.X. amp will drive the speakers. The room they are in right now are in a basement, with nice wooden floors, and a large carpet in the middle. it's dimensions are 11 x 22 x 7 feet. The furniture, besides 2 glass-top tables are big chairs and sofa in a nice fabric. There are are also bookshelves covering the back wall, opposite to the speakers. The ceiling is made of basic acoustic tiles.
The listening position is also quite different; as OF, the drivers were not much higher than 18 inches from the ground. Now, they are much higher!
Also, the speakers were straight on the floor, with a piece of cloth to avoid damaging the wouden floor.
So I plugged in my ipod as a source (I know; not the best considering I lost the dock with the lineout so the impressions will need to be updated with my home set-up) and started to listen, after some crude positioning.
Sting’s “Song from the Labyrinth” (a pretty nice cd by the way with a good review from Grammophon) provided some really nice sounding Luth. Actually, the setup seemed pretty realistic to me. A recording with similar style and traditional instruments from a French group doing music from the period of Dowland (“Le Poème Musical”) had a very convincing sound; the epoch instruments seemed to really blossom.
Listening to a live version of "4th of July" from Aimee Mann was quite amazing. The whole performance was natural and warm. Bass frequencies are present, but not overly present.
Although at first I had some old recordings from the 70's (Georges Moustaki’s “Eaux de Mars”) which seem to provide a boomy bass (it’s a song with a plain guitar), but this did not last long. I actually feel the whole thing got its balance quite rapidly after changing the position a bit. Antonio Carlos Jobim “Agua de Março” sounded very real; at some point, the flutes were a bit strong, but that was only on one part of the song. From memory, the same flutes always seem to be a bit forced on one note.
I listened to “Hey Joe”, from Jimi Hendrix, and this was also quite nice... high frequencies are really fantastic; the sound is detailed and yet, I did not feel any fatigue from my listening position. The bass is not overwhelming, and songs with a lot of beat are lively and engaging.
In terms of soundstage, I am not too sure; I feel the room may be too small to allow for these speakers to sing accordingly. I may have to give it a longer listen with some chamber music like trios and quatuors, but I do not have these recordings on hand. My home has a room of 15 x 28 x 10 feet, so this should not be a problem there, once I will move these beasts over there...
Also, I do not master the vocabulary of hobbyists regarding Hi-Fi; I try to rely on what I feel, so I apologize for not being better at conveying my feelings from these sessions, beyond the pride of having an almost completely diy system, one that provides me with a great, great deal of satisfaction.
My previous system was a QUAD 77 cd and integrated amp, with Totem Model 1 Signature speakers. Those are now in boxes, and will get out only for the person who will purchase them.
I should provide more insights in the next few days, especially after my brother will unwrap the SEX amp I built for him, on December 25... ;o)
Some recordings I want to try are some symphonic recordings from the '50s (Moussorgsky's "Pictures at an an exhibition" on Mercury Living Presence label) and some organ works to check those bass frequencies.
The big decisions I may have to make will be regarding the sides; should I add the second layer of plywood?
Also, would these speakers benefit from spikes underneath?
At this time, I see no need for a super tweeter, although experience may lead me to think otherwise in the future! |
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| Jrook |
Aye er howdy, Penderqast. I built the 166ES-R in back loaded horn cabinet as described in the fostex factory plan. I listened to them for about 4 months before installing these spikes at all four corners. Big improvement http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...number=240-715. As for the rear bracing I built and installed the same ladder style back baffle brace and found there to be very little difference in the sound. The side panels maybe though I didn't build mine with double sides.
Here's the link to my system and their is a second page,
http://home.earthlink.net/~conartonj/
Happy Holidays to all
JC
:cheers: :cheers: |
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| Pendergast |
Howdy jroot!
I remember your very nice set up! Thank you for the suggestions; I will look into it!
PS: Your wife is very lovely indeed! |
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| no xo |
| Penderqast, I try to follow the plans as exact as possible, so I included the rear braces and doubled side panels. I feel these are necessary to keep the bass flat and extended, though I never listened without them. Kloss even doubles the top panel. I put a sheet of 3/4" deflex behind the driver and I still expiriment with stuffing. I stuff the CC and 1st 2 folds of the horn lightly, to reduce midrange from exiting out of the mouth. This has helped control the boomy bass I had problems with at first. I have wondered if spikes would benefit these because they are so heavy, but I`ll probably try some this winter. Overall I am very happy with them and these will be my mains for several years. They replaced some Proac Response 1SC`s, but I still like those to much to sell them, but they have been in a closet for quite a while. Keep us posted on your progress. |
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