| Manger SWING - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| inertial |
Hi,
I'm searching all possible informations about this speaker.
I have seen the drawings and the x-over schematics of the "ZEROBOX's line"
but I have found zero about swing.
Can you help me?
Many thanks. :)
Inertial |
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| audiotux |
Hi inertial ,
see : manger-msw.com : Products , Data-Facts , Swing
or see :www.hm-moreart.de : basstuba = Horn for Manger
Greetings from Germany
Jürgen |
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| phase_accurate |
AFAIK the swing was never intended to be sold as a kit. So they don't publish details like x-over etc.
It looks very neat but it won't get the most from the MSW if you want to listen a high volumes every now and then.
The crossover is most probably a single cap and an impedance correction parallel to the MSW (like in the other Manger models) with a larger cap then the other Manger models use.
Regards
Charles |
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| Jeroenkv |
I would use the Manger >250hz in open baffle (recommended by Manger self). Below 250hz a nice woofer in sealed enclosure or also open baffle.
Reply from Manger:
Dear Jeroen,
thank you for your inquiry.
You can use it in an open baffle, but better is an baffle in
combinationwith a cabinet of 8 Liters for the MSw driver.
The MSW starts with a piston like action beyond 250 Hz and for
this is better to add a air cushion for a more controlled diaphragm
movement. |
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| phase_accurate |
Hi Jeroen
I think you misunderstood Mrs Manger. She does not say that you shall definitely use it with an open baffle crossed over at > 250 Hz.
She rather says that a closed box is better than an open baffle because of the pistonic behaviour below 250 Hz.
Remember that you can't fully suppress everything below 250 Hz going to the MSW whan you cross at this frequency.
Regards
Charles |
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| inertial |
Thanks audiotux .
Charles,
I have listened yesterday the SWING. No problem with max SPL.
It sounds!
You are correct, from the data exposed ( impedence graph) it seems a single cap high/pass but...... I am skeptical. The frequency response
seems ( to my ears) "too flat" to not have any compensation ( like
LCR or others).
But I do not have any type of measurements of the single MSW alone
in differents radiations conditions. I am very curious about to see the difference from a 2pi/str response versus a 4p/istr response ( with a baffle like the swing, to say).
I know you have the MSW, have you take some measurements ?
Many thanks. :)
Jeroenkv,
I am not a big fan of dipole but sure If one like dipole operation,
MSW can be a very interesting option, IMHO.
I am surprise about the not-proliferation of this MSW in the "dipole-community" !
Cheers,
Inertial |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | The frequency response seems ( to my ears) "too flat" to not have any compensation ( like LCR or others).
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I assume that it definitely has some impedance compensation for the driver impedance in order to work properly. But it doesn't necessarily have response compensation. Below about 300 Hz it shows a rising response with decreasing frequency due to the change from bending-wave mode to pistonic mode. This can often be used for BSC.
I haven't measured the bare driver so far but will do it this spring as soon as it is warm enough outside and I'll have a day off for doing this.
Regards
Charles |
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| inertial |
Thanks for your reply Charles,
Very interesting argument. Unfortunately I can't explore the internal
of the box to see exactly what type of compensation is employed. :(
Oh, spring is not so far!! :)
Cheers,
Inertial |
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| Tenson |
Looks good. So come on then, what are the disadvantages of this driver?
What is its power handling like? |
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| inertial |
Hi Tenson,
Yesterday I have had second auditions with SWING + Subsonice active sub. I can only say this: you must absolutely hear it!!!! :)
Imho , power handling can be a problem only for 110 dB lovers....
regards,
Inertial |
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| el`Ol |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tenson
Looks good. So come on then, what are the disadvantages of this driver?
What is its power handling like? |
A disadvantage is that most amps don`t deliver enough current for the 13µs rise time. A friend of mine tuned his power amps with large mica impulse capacitors in the power supply. Breathtaking performance. |
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| phase_accurate |
One has to watch out not to mix things up. The rise-time has nothing to do with current delivery (or better: current consumption). Current consumed is a function of impedance and driving voltage.
Rise-time is also affected by impedance (namely inductance) but other factors as well.
The Manger is almost resistive only, with a very low 16uH series inductance which is an easy load for almost any amplifier.
If you don't use an amp with high bandwith (Manger recommends > 150 kHz) you don't have any disadvantages from the fast rise-time of the MSW but you don't get all of its advantages. Simple as that.
As far as disadvantages go, there are two that I can name: Somewhat higher distortion than other drivers and two "holes" in FR at 800 Hz and 1600 Hz.
But even though there are some things that others do better I wouldn't change to anything else at the moment.
Regards
Charles |
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| inertial |
Hi again,
yetserday I've heard third audition with swing+subsonice.
Mmmmh, something of not perfect in the integration sub-sat.
But the 200Hz ---> up is "magic"!! Really amazing. :)
I have suggested to my friend to ask the little zerobox bookshelf
to the distributor, but at the moment they do not have " in-house".
I' m very curios to listen it...
Cheers,
Inertial |
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| Jeroenkv |
| I would suggest at least two subwoofers!! |
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| inertial |
Hi, Yeroenkv.
Yes, you are right.
But from the moment that one swing plus two subsonice(manger also)
costs about 8800 euro, my friend want to try the little zerobox bookshelf ( 3400 euro). ;)
Again I am skeptical about the very low ( 90 Hz) x-over freq suggested from Manger : my ears hear something of not correct. Just my opinion
of course.
Inertial |
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| Jeroenkv |
| You can also do it the DIY way. Buy a pair of Mangers and Vifa woofers and use the filter & building plans from their site. |
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| inertial |
Oh, the speaker isn't for me, is for my friend!!
He is a bit "snob", and like "trade" , signature, etc.
But I have the opportunity to listen and comparate (to my DIY) the best loudspeakers he can test.
And this is very important, IMHO. :)
regards,
Inertial |
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| max653 |
Hi guys
Can be will recommend for me the driver for subsonice in a pair to MSW.
Wanted to purchase two scan_speac 25w_8565_00 but it seems model have removed from production. Can there are best variants?
The paper is desirable
Sorry for my English |
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| inertial |
Hi max653,
The original woofer of the subsonice is a VIFA 10" ( custom I believe).
regards,
Inertial |
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| rick57 |
Charles
> Rise-time is also affected by impedance (namely inductance) but other factors as well.
What are the main determinants of fast rise time, in order?
What amps (eg around 50 watts) would have a very fast rise time, the Aksa 55?
Thanks |
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| el`Ol |
My friend uses Black Devil amps from Experience Electronics (the version without overpower protection, plus the mentioned mica speed-up). Buscher amps are also considered "fast".
http://www.buscher-endstufen.de |
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| el`Ol |
| The Buscher SE50 obviously has 50W only on 4Ohm. What if one used higher rail voltage and drove the two 16 Ohm coils of the Manger seperately? |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | What are the main determinants of fast rise time, in order? |
Transducers are electromechnical bandpass-filters. The behaviour at the upper end of their bandwidth is determined by several different constructional details. The actual construction determines which one(s) to be dominant.
Some examples:
Electrical lowpass formed by Lvc and Re.
Electromechanical lowpass determined by force-factor/moving-mass.
Mechanical "filters" formed by breakup modes and acoustical delays.
Regards
Charles |
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| Tenson |
Hi,
I have some speakers on the design board and I suddenly remembered the existence of the MSW! It opens up a second very differnt design path, yet both do what I was after technically, but I have not heard the MSW.
Can someone give me a description of its sound?
I was planning to use it above 250Hz and can do steep filters as well so there is a lot of peak SPL ability.
I like speakers that can play any type of music, but do listen to a lot of metal, indie, rock etc.. Also a lot of vocal and acoustic jazz though. Thats why I need the high SPL ability, for metal ;)
Anyway I read on TNT that the small bookshelf has a very laid back sound, but I wonder when looking at the MSW's frequency response if this is just the suck-out around 1.3KHz showing itself?
I would have the ability to EQ the litte dip out so it is flat so if that is the only reason it sounds too laid back then that is not an issue.
If it is something else though...
Someone said that the drawback of these drivers is that that have higher distortion. What sort? I dislike colouration and distortion very much! Clean, clean, clean is for me :)
I'd like to use it open baffle but I know Mrs. Manger suggested it might not work. Would it be okay when it is not producing bass below 250Hz (steep filter)?
This must be one of the most expensive drivers out there! £515 each! :eek: |
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| phase_accurate |
If you need a speaker with high SPL capability AND low distortion you might be better off with a combination of a horn mid-high and a direct radiating woofer.
For vocal jazz at moderate SPLs the Manger is ideal but not so with loud rock IMO.
I've been listening to Dream Theater (Train of thought) recently and the hard songs had an annoying sound on the Mangers. But I'd have to listen to this one on other speakers as well to be able to tell if it was really the speaker's fault. One disappointing property of this record is the dynamic compression on the hard songs. The soft parts sound very nice though.
Steep crossover slopes might indeed improve the distortion characteristics. A higher crossover frequency than 250 Hz might improve things even more. But one would have to try it out in practive, especially if you want to use it on an open baffle.
Edit: Forgot to mention that the Manger actually has two dips in its response curve. One at 800 Hz and one at 1.6kHz.
Regards
Charles |
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| ackcheng |
| judging from the published size of the Swing, it seems that it has about 5L of volume. Correct? |
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| ackcheng |
| I am planning to use Manger MSW for the center channel and it appears that 8L is needed. However, I need a rather thin cabinet to fit into the limited space I have. I have attached a schematic drawiomg. Will this work? |
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| jirka |
max653
New alluminium Scan-Speak Revelator like 26W4867T00 is excellent choice for the MSW. I personally dont like paper membranes. For me every paper membrane sound the same.
The magnesium Seas Excel W26FX001 is also excellent, but only for active variant (too low sensitivity).
ackheng
Yes, 8 liter cabinet is good for MSW, but the more depth you have behind this driver the better. That is why I made egg-shaped enclosures or used front horns without back enclosure.
The more effective damping behind behind MSW the clearer the sound at high SPL.
With small 8 liter enclosure you are not able to keep damping 6cm distant from the MSW and still have damped enclosure. |
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