| richwalters |
I'm still using my old supplies of 60Sn/40Pb........I'm somewhat disappointed with the flowing characteristics of the new fangled lead free type. Can anyone advise me on a good lead free make ?
richj |
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| peranders |
| There are different leadfree alloys but I'm afraid I can't help you with the right choice. |
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| gfinlayson |
Rich,
I'm not sure about other people's experiences, but I've not found any lead free solder that flows as well as the old 60/40 stuff. It also needs a lot more heat to work and consequently soldering tips don't last as long.
Graeme |
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| richwalters |
.....'son.....Your'e right....A No 8-9 PT Weller seems to be the only way forward....and far too hot for plastic cased components and I'm having to change tips quite regulary with Pb free. From what I've found, the soldering has to be done much quicker. I shall have to read up about the eutectic range....which I think is very narrow compared with traditional 60/40 solders.
The omens don't look good...I think I will buy up whatever 60/40 Rosin cored stock is about and make my best tube amp from it..
The finish with Pb free doesn't look shiny......in fact the temptation is to redo in thinking a dry joint has resulted.
If I'm right about the wetting not being so good as conventional solders, I presume in mass consumer equipment the risks in oxidised dry joints will be ever greater. Perhaps a comment to alay my pessimism. No equipment manufacturer has ever mentioned equipment guarantees ? or simply bin-it.
richj |
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| Stocker |
| over 800*F, solder tips tend to eat themselves with oxidation. If you have an adjustable station, turn it down between joints. If your station heats very quickly, consider turning if off entirely. Always keeping a little solder on the tip (not wiping it off) when it's in the holder is a good idea to prevent the oxidation going nuts. |
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| Lars Clausen |
I only got a few meters sample of lead-free solder from my supplier so far. I don't know the exact type, but it worked just like usual solder. And by usual i mean 60/36/4 Ag. The resulting joints were shiny and looked right too. So it IS possible to get a good result from lead-free.
I will check tomorrow the brand and type, and post here. |
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| richie00boy |
That would be great if you could Lars, I'm sure many of us would be grateful for a trusted type to try.
When I went on the Naim factory tour I asked them about lead free soldering and what they thought about it (as it was a couple of years ago, just before the directives came in), and they said they had been lead free for a while. So it must be possible to achieve a good result. |
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| gfinlayson |
Thanks Lars,
I too would very much like to know which type of solder you have. The stuff I'm using just now is 95.5/4/0.5 Sn/Ag/Cu. It works OK on small stuff, if the iron is kept very hot and the joint is done quickly, but on larger stuff such as crossover wiring, it's very difficult, even with a 50W temperature controlled solder station.
Graeme |
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| Nigel Goodwin |
| quote: | Originally posted by richie00boy
When I went on the Naim factory tour I asked them about lead free soldering and what they thought about it (as it was a couple of years ago, just before the directives came in), and they said they had been lead free for a while. So it must be possible to achieve a good result. |
Depends on your opinion of 'good result', all lead free joints look really poor, that's not to say they are, but they look very dull. There's no real problem using lead free solder, but you need a much higher temperature, and a temperature controlled iron is pretty well essential.
Like many others, I'm hoping to buy enough leaded solder to outlast me! :D |
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| Lars Clausen |
Here are the results i got from using Fluitin 1532 type SAC305. (Tin, Copper and 3.5% Silver).
The oversized joints are to blame on the use of a way too big tip.
Actually just a normal soldering iron was used.
As can be seen the joints are not so good looking as the normal ones, but the work is hazzle free, and the joints hold up nicely.
A nice detail: due to lead free / RoHS compliance the entire PCB is Gold plated! :cool:
All the best from
Lars |
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| richie00boy |
| Thanks Lars. Hopefully I can get this type here in UK. |
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| Eva |
I'm always puzzled at how stupid all humans are.
We keep removing components like Pb from our products instead of modifying the consumer chain to avoid these products ending up in a dumpster after a year of use.
No matter if the components and the PCBs are Pb free. Most consumer electronics ends up resting in a dumpster and there are hundreds of other harmful components that will get corroded and will be absorbed by the soil, thus ending up in our drinking water and our vegetables anyway.
We don't need all that Pb-free non-sense stuff created by politicians and big companies trying to fool us into thinking that they really care about pollution (they care about profit only). What they really want with RoHS is both to put new stuff in the market (thus cuasing old stuff to end up in dumpsters) and to eliminate minor competitors not capable of fulfilling these rules.
What we need is a DUMPSTER-FREE system enforcing complete recovery of prime materials, and enforcing big companies to get rid of their products after the consumer discards them. Otherwise, in 50 years the only remaining sources of materials such as copper that we will have will be our dumpsters, and extraction is going to be quite costly. |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
Here here,
But I propose we go further.
Let's promote repairable commodities, rather than dumping them.
This stupidity of charging the same for a minor component as the purchase cost of the whole item is ludicrous. All manufacturers should be forced to adopt an economic repairs policy and if need be a subsidised spare parts distribution system. This way a component could represent a fair proportion of the whole cost.
The manufacturers would not like this, they would have to reduce production by at least 75% because everything would last at least 4 times longer (just an estimate not a promise). |
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| JensRasmussen |
Big compaines spend BIG $ on both RoHS and PB free production.
Even though my company don't need to comply to the new standards we only produce stuff that comply.
I agree that "End of life treatment" is even more important, this is starting to be discussed but as a lot of manufactures use mixed technology, older products will not easily be reused.
Plastic parts are no longer painted at the local TV factory - this makes reuse of the plastic parts a lot easier. It's not much, but it's a start
\Jens |
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| Lars Clausen |
| quote: |
What they really want with RoHS is both to put new stuff in the market (thus cuasing old stuff to end up in dumpsters) and to eliminate minor competitors not capable of fulfilling these rules.
|
Being one of the smallest possible producers of technology, i can say it is fully possible to comply with RoHS and other necessary regulations. No need to fight reality ;)
In fact i promote designing RoHS and other regulations in from the beginning, and not as a band aid solution later on.
About consumer behavior, and preventing worn out stuff from ending up in dumpsters, i think this should be covered in the waste electrical and electronic equipment (WEEE) directive at least here in EU. You can view it here:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en...3en00240038.pdf
Another interesting angle on why it makes very good sense to remove lead from the production cycle:
The natural content of Lead in seawater is 30 kg per cubic kilometer, which is actually very low. For example there is 150 kg Mercury and more than 3 tonnes of Uranium naturally dispersed in the same amount of seawater.
You can see the composistion of seawater here: http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm
The Earth has more than 1 billion cubic kilometers of seawater, so based on this you might find a ban on ocean dumping of nuclaer waste quite redundant instead. (There is more than 3 billion tonnes of Uranium already naturally occuring in seawater).
But we all know how harmful Lead can be, so if we can do without it, we should.
All the best from
Lars |
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| richwalters |
I agree with Eva.......entirely. SInce I started this thread I knew it would end up political...so be it. , I'm not the type to put my head in a "green bucket". .....basically all bunkum. As Eva mentions quite correctly noting has really changed regarding contaminating the planet and lead has only recently been taken out of petrol after a century of use. >SO why the flap ?
My previous profession was a skilled welder. One doesn't require much imagination to all the chemicals one comes across and free-cutting steel (with 30% lead in it) and theorium is piled up on scrap heaps. As anyone taken any notice of this......Nup...
Paranoia? Most certainly.
I wonder what will be the next thing ? Taken the tin out of sardine tins?
Long live 60/40.
richj |
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| Lars Clausen |
My opinion is that in a hundred years production of goods, be it consumer or industrial, will be done in a much much more environmentally sustainable way.
What we are seing now is only the beginning, and taking Pb out of electronics production is just a sign of 'we have to start somewhere'.
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
I'm still using my old supplies of 60Sn/40Pb........I'm somewhat disappointed with the flowing characteristics of the new fangled lead free type. Can anyone advise me on a good lead free make ?
richj |
Rich
To answer your question..
Your observation has far less to do with the alloy constituents as it does flux.
At 183 C, lead/tin has been beat to death technology wise, we've had 2000 years experience making that work. Fluxes were designed to work that alloy, and they have been rather well developed.
Now, comes along all the no lead stuff. Everybody gets on the lead free bandwagon (I will not entertain discussion of the politics), and expects the same performance and characteristics.
Chief problem..temp. Lead free alloys for the most part are solid at 221 C, give or take. This means that the flux must activate at much higher temperatures than the old stuff.
You will find that flux will be the key. That, and surface prep.
Don't expect shiny surfaces..but they will flow, you just have to get used to new methods of soldering.
Cheers, John |
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| Eva |
The worst of all is that by removing lead and other components from electronic equipment we are indirectly accepting and encouraging dumpsters as a good way to dispose that equipment after use.
ROHS means DUMPSTER-READY for politicians and plain people.
Who said that electronics equipment could be constructed without employing harmful substances? It obviously can't. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
I'm always puzzled at how stupid all humans are. |
I am not. Puzzled, that is. Stupid, maybe..;) | quote: | Originally posted by Eva
What we need is a DUMPSTER-FREE system enforcing complete recovery of prime materials, and enforcing big companies to get rid of their products after the consumer discards them. Otherwise, in 50 years the only remaining sources of materials such as copper that we will have will be our dumpsters, and extraction is going to be quite costly. |
Complete recovery of materials is rather expensive. Only when it is cheaper than using virgin materials will it be taken up.
Cheers, John |
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| Eva |
| quote: | Originally posted by jneutron
Complete recovery of materials is rather expensive. Only when it is cheaper than using virgin materials will it be taken up.
Cheers, John |
We are stupid because we know that using virgin materials will end up being more costly than recovering them from existing equipment quite soon, yet we act as if we had unlimited sources of virgin materials and unlimited dumpster space to throw the complex mixtures that we make out of them once used.
We are so stupid that we are even trying to produce dumpster-ready stuff instead of recovery-ready stuff, but the recovery effort *must* be taken anyway. If we don't take it now with calm, we will have to take it later in a hurry. We can fool ourselves but we can't fool nature :) |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
We are stupid because we know that using virgin materials will end up being more costly than recovering them from existing equipment quite soon, yet we act as if we had unlimited sources of virgin materials and unlimited dumpster space to throw the complex mixtures that we make out of them once used. |
When the virgin materials are more costly, recovery will happen. It is a self limiting process.
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
We are so stupid that we are even trying to produce dumpster-ready stuff instead of recovery-ready stuff, but the recovery effort *must* be taken anyway. If we don't take it now with calm, we will have to take it later in a hurry. We can fool ourselves but we can't fool nature :) |
At least some are realizing the issue of the throwaway stuff as being a concentrator of heavy metals.
Claims of dire futures consistently fail to come true.
Not because the claims were incorrect....sometimes it is the simple awareness of the possibility that opens our eyes.
Given the surge in population on the planet, it was predicted that we would not have enough food, I think that prediction was to come true in the late 70's..
Cheers, John |
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| soongsc |
Do RohS lead free solder sound different from regular solder with silver content?
I remember getting some lead free solder from RadioShack years ago, and it seems more difficult to work with than Wonder Solder. |
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| richwalters |
| quote: | Originally posted by soongsc
Do RohS lead free solder sound different from regular solder with silver content?
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This a "new one" I'd never expect would crop up .:scratch1: .....all contributions welcome....Don't all shout at once....please !
richj |
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| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
This a "new one" I'd never expect would crop up .:scratch1: .....all contributions welcome....Don't all shout at once....please !
richj |
Just a question I was asked a few month ago.
:D |
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| richie00boy |
| LOL I wondered how long it would take for this to crop up :clown: |
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| soongsc |
| I CD player manufacturer actually asked me if I knew of knew of any lead free solder that sounded good. |
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
.I'm having to change tips quite regulary with Pb free.
richj |
How many kilos of solder you use per month? :D
Is Your soldering iron is oldish magnastat-weller? 8-9 number tips dont last so long in these, try Hakko or Metcal and you will be supprised how long your tips last. I have had metcal for something like 2 years on daily use with temperature similar to 8-number weller and its still running fine with orginal tip. Sometimes I forget it on for week or two, sure its bit oxidized but "Tip-Tinner" made by multicore cleans it in seconds. |
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| richwalters |
| quote: | Originally posted by mzzj
How many kilos of solder you use per month? :D
Ah... ok about 2 to the equipment, probably a 1/4 as oxide scale to the environment....
Is Your soldering iron is oldish magnastat-weller? 8-9 number tips dont last so long in these, . |
Ja...okay I'm an old-fashioned impatient git..I've learnt my trade repairing bottle amps and electronics for 40 yrs.....(now it all comes out...)...With little respect these Magnastat tips with this new fangled solder stuff are rotting as fast as i LOOK at'em. I know I'll get told off about this ......... It's case of getting on with the job (on piecework) with a Decent HOT tip and not having to fxxg long waiting looking at it.
Okay point made...I'M being a bit naiive. What you are implying me to do to is to buy a new SS temperature controlled soldering pencil (station) ?..:joker: ... Eva would say <I told you so>...exactly das (the) problem of putting more excellent 60/40 equipment junk in the trash bin.
I suppose I'd better move on...
LL60/40
richj |
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| Eva |
That's right Rich, paradoxically a lot of working equipment and parts full of Pb are going to be put in the nearest dumpster just because new RoHS regulations make them "outdated".
BTW: I'm considering a straightforward triac dimmer with a potentiometer to keep my (bare non-regulated) soldering irons somewhat hot but not evaporating themselves when I 'm not using them (maybe even some stupid system that only applies full power to the heat element when it detects that you have the iron off the holder).
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| Hector Ruiz |
| A simple fix would be to put an ordinary silicon diode in series with the iron's heating element. By rectifier action ony one-half of the AC waveform is allowed to pass through the heating element, thereby lowering the temperature of the tip. If you are mechanically inclined, you can rig-up some sort of mechanism linked to a leaver-activated MicroSwitch. When the iron is lifted the MicroSwitch will short out the diode allowing full AC to flow through the heating element. |
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| DragonMaster |
Better LF? I think the one with silver.
I'm still OK for years to come, just bought a pound of 63/37 Kester solder for $15. (I just finished a quarter pound that I bought 2-3 years ago)
I think that high-reliability (Military/Medical) equipment in North America is untouched by RoHS, so SnPb will always be available somewhere.
Else, if you can't find Pb solder in your electronic store, I think that some countries still have 60/40 or 40/60 for cooper pipes in hardware stores... |
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| Hector Ruiz |
| Just FYI, I work for a military defense contractor and our production facility is mandated to switch to lead-free solder. It also requires new soldering tools that provide enough heat to melt the new solder alloys. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | Just FYI, I work for a military defense contractor and our production facility is mandated to switch to lead-free solder. It also requires new soldering tools that provide enough heat to melt the new solder alloys. |
Hey! Who told me that these weren't affected.
Or was it telecom equipment? |
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| poobah |
We might have a pound of lead in our homes... meanwhile we have 100 pounds in our driveways... silly... just plain silly.
:mad: :mad: :smash: :smash: :smash: |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: | | We might have a pound of lead in our homes... meanwhile we have 100 pounds in our driveways... silly... just plain silly. |
Great... :whazzat: :dodgy:
And if a pound lasts years, how many lead is there in one piece of electronic equipment? (Especially new one, all SMD with very small solder joints) |
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| soongsc |
| Consumer products are continuous sources of lead polution, that's why it's a good idea to start from these products. Military and medical equipment have a longer grace period, but since product certification take longer, manufacturers always want a head start so they don't get left out of the game. |
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| richwalters |
Someone mentioned 60Pb & 40 Sn.....that would imply too wide a plastic range for electronics...that grade is (was) for the big stuff...transformer & motor windings etc. For electronics this takes far longer for joint to cool down risking dry joint. There is more to this metallurgy stuff than meets the eye, the contact angles of iron to globule & joint is also important but all taken for granted these days. It's too easy to slam a 8 or 9 spade bit in a Weller and get-on with it.
However, having been accused of being a <bull in a china shop> with my electronics, soldering is one of those arts one HAS to master for success. (I'd admit though my times I've put 75% of other peoples projects right, simply by a decent hot iron, understanding the process and replacing damaged components).
I think solder manufacturers could have done better to inform users about the Eutectic range of fangled Pb free. (perhaps it's been out there and I've been ignorant not finding it) Disclosing the melting point isn't enough.
Like many others, one cannot beat the near Eutectic perfection of the 63Sn&37Pb which melts at 183°C.
In the late 1950's one studied soldering practises by attending Radio & electrnics evening tech classes. Everyone did this by their own conviction then afterwards nip down to the local to have a Jar or two. That was the British way of doing things.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Romans gradually poisoned themselves by drinking wine from lead containers.
richj |
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| Eva |
| Well, what I wonder is which substances are being employed in the new lead-free solder materials. |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
short of doing a google, what is 1532? |
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| jean-paul |
| You would have known if you would have clicked the link..... |
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| AndrewT |
Ah!
lead free solder.
But beyond that I cannot follow. |
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| gfinlayson |
Andrew T.,
The Alpha Fluitin 1532 is available in the UK from RS Components. It comes in 0.4 mm, 0.75 mm, and 1.25 mm. Stock codes are 445-5858, 445-5842, 445-5836.
Regards,
Graeme |
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| richie00boy |
| Thanks Graeme now I can see where to buy it. |
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| DragonMaster |
| quote: |
Like many others, one cannot beat the near Eutectic perfection of the 63Sn&37Pb which melts at 183°C. |
Just switched to 63/37. (Was on 60/40 before)
I found it was melting at a much lower temp, when my iron was on the usual 700F. I just lowered it to 650F. Can I go even lower with this one? |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
I would expect 300degC to be suitable.
So try around 570degF. |
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| DragonMaster |
| Just tried and even 640°F is taking a lot of time to get solder to melt. Works a lot better at 670°F... |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
time is more critical than low temperature.
The slow melting response (as you correctly identified) indicates that you needed more temp.
You need some speed to reduce the conduction of heat down the connections into the device.
Now that you know that the 670degF indication suits 60/40 it gives you a start point for higher temp solders. |
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| Eva |
I have finally had a chance to try the new 99,7 stuff. It melts at a considerably high temperature as it has been mentioned, thus requiring everybody to throw their soldering irons away and buy new more powerful ones (who said pollution reduction?!?!?!). However, that's a very small drawback in comparison with the rest, because I can just use a variac to supply 250V or 260V to my irons and get some extra ºC.
The true bad news is that 99,7% solder sticks to component legs in a much poorer way than 63/37, is much less plastic when it comes to apply mechanical stress without cracking it, and it solidifies all at once in a very small fraction of a second (no matter how big the solder joint), thus leading to fissures and "false glueing" very easily.
In other words, solder without lead is mostly unusable for manual soldering and will cause a tremendous increase in failure rates on wave-soldered consumer electronics (leading to more pollution because any piece of consumer equipment that fails has great chances of end up in a dumpster). I will get as much supplies of the reliable 63/37 as I can.
BTW: Yesterday I visited an automotive sound installer and electrician friend of mine that did not know anything about RoHS. He solders 12V wires (and wires to connectors) almost always because that has proven to be far more reliable than mechanical connection approaches (he provides *full*lifetime* warranty against any wiring or installation defect). He had inadvertedly bought some amounts of the new 99.7% solder and was very angry. He was just going to phone the supplier to complain about "very poor solder quality" when I told him about RoHS. He became quite puzzled and told me that the "new" solder that he had just received was sticking very badly to the copper of the wires of the cars and was producing a terrible "false-solder-joint" look!! I even had to try it to believe!! Now he is also desperatly looking for supplies of the reliable 63/37 (and blaming those stupid European politicians).
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
The true bad news is that 99,7% solder sticks to component legs in a much poorer way than 63/37,
|
Sounds like you have some hippie-friendly flux in your solder :)
Old resin-based mildly activated flux worked very well with 60/40 but caused lots of allergies for workers. No-clean No-smoke, Antiallergic, hippie-friendly stuff they prefer to use doesnt work so well. |
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| Eva |
| I thought that hippies would also like to breathe the smoke from the solder... :D:D:D |
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| davidsrsb |
I am most worried about BGA packages, soldering these well was a bit of an art at a manufacturing plant that went as far as x-raying every part. Even with 60/40 we had problems with board flex causing joints to crack.
Consumer devices like car and tv remotes that take a lot of abuse are going to be very unreliable. I have a Clarion car player that uses a single sided pcb for the control panel. It comes ourt once a year for re-soldering. |
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| Nigel Goodwin |
| quote: | Originally posted by mzzj
Sounds like you have some hippie-friendly flux in your solder :)
Old resin-based mildly activated flux worked very well with 60/40 but caused lots of allergies for workers. No-clean No-smoke, Antiallergic, hippie-friendly stuff they prefer to use doesnt work so well. |
I was part of a test by the Health and Safety Executive on soldering hazards in service departments - apparently the only safety concerns were from the flux used?, which 'may' cause problems for a small number of asthma sufferers. From what I could make out, the potential problem numbers were EXTREMELY small, but prompted the requirement for fume extraction in production environments. The tests (on me and others) proved no requirement for fume extraction in a service environment. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
I have finally had a chance to try the new 99,7 stuff. ....The true bad news is that 99,7% solder sticks to component legs in a much poorer way than 63/37, is much less plastic when it comes to apply mechanical stress without cracking it, and it solidifies all at once in a very small fraction of a second (no matter how big the solder joint), thus leading to fissures and "false glueing" very easily.
In other words, solder without lead is mostly unusable for manual soldering and will cause a tremendous increase in failure rates on wave-soldered consumer electronics (leading to more pollution because any piece of consumer equipment that fails has great chances of end up in a dumpster).
|
Why use the 99.3/.7 stuff?? It's almost pure tin?? Are we gonna start a whole new wave of whisker and pest failures???
I've used pure tin, tin silver, tin lead, lead indium, all kinds of different solders and fluxes, and I've not found the problems you are mentioning.
I think you are experiencing thermal gradient failures. This is when the heat from the joint is being wicked by colder areas, this raises holy heck with the fluxing/cleaning process as well as differential shrinking.
Cheers, John |
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| poobah |
OK guys... I just got a RoHS job... 1700 boards... probably be about 150 parts each.
Spent all of yesterday reading up... Basically RoHS is going after the consumer junk. I don't know how it will be for boys in Europe to keep buying 63/37 solder... but it may not be that bad. Their are plenty of exceptions though and not ALL equipment has to be built RoHS compliant.
I think the bottom line is this:
1) Soldering irons with NO temp control are going to be a problem. Soldering irons WITH heat control, and POOR temp sensing (like ALL of them except METCAL), are going to be problematic as well. METCAL is going to be selling alot of irons I think.
2) We have all been spoiled by rosin and solder plated plated components. We will all need to learn about new fluxes etc... I have been doing testing and rework on SMT boards lately. I have only recently learned the joys of working with a bottle of liquid flux nearby to wet things down before you get to work.
3) Good solder joints won't be as shiny.
I'll be sure to report as I go along.
;) |
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| Eva |
| quote: | Originally posted by jneutron
Why use the 99.3/.7 stuff?? It's almost pure tin?? Are we gonna start a whole new wave of whisker and pest failures???
Cheers, John |
Believe it or not Sn99.3/Cu0.7 is the alloy that politicians (and their friends at big companies) expect us to use now in Europe, as it's priced similarly to 63/37 or 60/40 and it's the only one widely available to the date, as opposed to others, like Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5, that cost three times more and are quite hard to find. Furthermore, when you order/ask for the classic 63/37 or 60/40, they give/send you the 99.3/0.7 replacement instead, without even asking!!! It seems like nobody is informed!
The 99.3/0.7 melts at 227 ºC, 34 ºC higher than the usual 63/37, and even the ultra-expensive Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5 melts at 217ºC so it's not a great improvement. Furthermore, the oviously poor mechanical properties of these alloys are conveniently left out of every data table that I have seen to the date.
Also, if the useful life of a solder tip is halved each time temperature is increased by 10ºC, how much are the tips going to last now? (Simple math tells at least 10 times less). |
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
Furthermore, the oviously poor mechanical properties of these alloys are conveniently left out of every data table that I have seen to the date.
Also, if the useful life of a solder tip is halved each time temperature is increased by 10ºC, how much are the tips going to last now? (Simple math tells at least 10 times less). |
Poor or not depends on situation :) I use Sn-Ag-Cu when I need strong solder joints. Sure higher mechanical strengt is a problem in wave soldering etc but mostly its a good thing :)
2 years or 20years tip life , I dont care. Both of my soldering irons(metcal and hakko) seem to have years of tip life even at higher temperatures. |
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
like Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5, that cost three times more and are quite hard to find. |
I dont know about spain, but for example Farnell has truckload of different Sn-Ag-Cu varieties availlable at 30 euros per 0.5kg spool. (Sn-Cu is apprx 20 euros per spool as well as Sn-37Pb) |
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| richwalters |
<just back from Arab nations>.....When I compare the environmental wastage from all the plastic PET bottles and rubbish piled up around the beaches and landscape in the middle east, I wonder why our misguided politicians and green party crackpots so obsessed with safety requirements and conformity haven't grappled this waste plastics problem first. This environmental blight is far worse than anything not concerning lead products and it stays around for years.
The fault lies with those countries which don't have a serious environmental policy aspect but it seems so silly to manufacture in one country and then dump in another.
.... Completely :mad: and Out of perspective ? YES.
richj: |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
Believe it or not Sn99.3/Cu0.7 is the alloy that politicians (and their friends at big companies) expect us to use now in Europe, as it's priced similarly to 63/37 or 60/40 and it's the only one widely available to the date, as opposed to others, like Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5, that cost three times more and are quite hard to find. Furthermore, when you order/ask for the classic 63/37 or 60/40, they give/send you the 99.3/0.7 replacement instead, without even asking!!! It seems like nobody is informed!
The 99.3/0.7 melts at 227 ºC, 34 ºC higher than the usual 63/37, and even the ultra-expensive Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5 melts at 217ºC so it's not a great improvement. Furthermore, the oviously poor mechanical properties of these alloys are conveniently left out of every data table that I have seen to the date.
Also, if the useful life of a solder tip is halved each time temperature is increased by 10ºC, how much are the tips going to last now? (Simple math tells at least 10 times less). |
Most people are very confused when it comes to using the newer high temp stuff, I certainly agree with you on that.
I use tin silver because of it's higher strength capability. I use it for all joints which will be subjected to cryogenic operation, either liquid nitrogen or liquid helium. The joints range from #40 awg copper all the way to 10 inch long half inch wide joints of super cable. So far, with in excess of 20 thousand joints, and temp cycling for the last 5 years, only one solder joint failed. It turned out to be a joint that was not done properly nor inspected.
With proper flux, cleaning, and heating, the joints will not be poor, it just takes time, teaching, and methods to do it right.
We haven't found tips are destroyed with the required temperatures, although your "halved every ten degrees" in definitely correct with respect to most processes. I have found that cleaning the tip with a abrasive material will certainly kill the cladding of the tip, then it's downhill from there.
Cheers, John |
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| poobah |
| I have read that the silver "style" version of lead free is the preferrred material for hand soldering. |
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| Elso Kwak |
Ag3.8Cu0.7 works just fine and way better than Cardas wonder solder........
Yes way more expensive than the old times!
:rolleyes: |
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| Eva |
| quote: | Originally posted by mzzj
I dont know about spain, but for example Farnell has truckload of different Sn-Ag-Cu varieties availlable at 30 euros per 0.5kg spool. (Sn-Cu is apprx 20 euros per spool as well as Sn-37Pb) |
I have just ordered 2.5kg of 60/40 for less than 70 euro (incl. taxes) for my friend the car-audio installer. If you do the math, it's nearly three times cheaper than Sn-Ag-Cu. Previously he was buying 63/37 at less than 8 euro per 250g.
Also, if you look at Farnell catalog, you will see that Sn99.3/Cu0.7 is by far the most frequent product (together with 60/40), while they appear to no longer sell 63/37. |
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| Elso Kwak |
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeh Eva, I bought 2kg of the old stuff a year ago!
Sn60Pb38Cu2.
Must be enough for the rest of my life...
:rolleyes: |
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| poobah |
A new black market for solder?
We will buy our heroin, cocaine, and 63/37 from bad people in dark places?
Instead of crack houses and meth labs, we will guys meting down old batteries and mixing with the tin solder?
GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:smash: :smash: :smash: |
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| Eva |
poobaaahhh!!!!!!!!!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D |
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| poobah |
Fear not EVA,
I will send you 63/37 disguised as magnet wire... for a small fee.
Seriously though... look at the regulations for RoHS (carefully)... industrial, and critical electronics are largely immune. They are after the mass produced consumer junk and building materials for the most part.
I don't really agree with it, I think we should all build things that endure... and recycle thoughfully, but that is just me.
:D |
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| davidsrsb |
| There are permitted uses of lead solder, but if all of the components are lead free does this help much? |
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| richwalters |
I've noticed when soldering silver plated valve holder tags with Pb free solder it doesn't take so well when compared to standard tin-on-brass plated cum steel tags.. ...Silver plate is quick to oxidise in the extra heat and it seems the flux of this new stuff isn't as effective in breaking this up when compared to standard 60 Sn/40Pb Ersin and Kolophonium fluxes.
When soldering valve/tube sockets, I have to use a lower temperature to get a good bond or start with standard 60/40.
richj |
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
Silver plate is quick to oxidise in the extra heat and it seems the flux of this new stuff isn't as effective in breaking this up
richj |
Try multicore Arax flux ;) You need to wash your solder joints with hot water afterwards, but this flux works. (exept if you try to solder plastic spoon to wooden table) :) I use it for NiCd cells and other hard-to solder stuff. |
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| poobah |
Actually Dave,
There is a big scramble for big silicon going right now... seems wafer stock is really tight right now. Anyway... I had to buy some RoHS parts becuase that's all that was available. They are tin rather than solder plated... they work just fine with lead based solder... couldn't tell the difference.
;) |
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| darkfenriz |
Hi
to those who tries a lead-free:
My Polish spirit makes me ask how anyone will know if a soldering join is made of lead type or not? Do they look different? |
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| poobah |
Yes...
Lead free joints, even done perfectly, are not as shiny. The color is less silver and more white.
;) |
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| manerotony |
I've had the same problem with electronic cards at work.
The new RoHS compliant cards are soldered with an higher temperature, but after some trouble we purchase the oven electronic cards at the same price... |
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| demogorgon |
just had my hands at this stuff, not good.
and should you be so stupid as to try lead free solder on leadsolder joints, it actually reacts explosivly. dunno if this was some wierd sideeffect of the stuff we tried at school, but nevertheless.
i have 1kg of lead solder, hope it'l outlast me.
i dont solder that much. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by demogorgon
and should you be so stupid as to try lead free solder on leadsolder joints, it actually reacts explosivly. dunno if this was some wierd sideeffect of the stuff we tried at school, but nevertheless.
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The alloy constituents were not the cause of an explosion.
Look for another explanation.
I have worked with and mixed alloys containing lead, tin, bismuth, indium, gold, antimony, copper, silicon, germanium, silver,..no explosions.
Cheers, John |
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| poobah |
Yeah... you just had some really excited flux... that's all.
;) |
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| gfinlayson |
| I've repaired and modified lead/tin solder joints with lead-free solder and never had any problems, let alone explosions. |
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| demogorgon |
| quote: | Originally posted by poobah
Yeah... you just had some really excited flux... that's all.
;) |
yeah, i figure it's the flux as well.
and when i say explosive effekt, dont think large scale.
but enough for me to be conserned for my eyes. not to talk about my plain black sweater, that now looks like a discoball. ^^ |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
not as bad as the dimwit that tried to melt his soldering iron cable thinking I was not looking. :hot:
He seemed to take exception to my hand forceably removing his from the area of danger. Something along the lines of "personal space" |
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| Eva |
| I'm currently using both lead and lead-free depending on the kind of joint. A 50 megawatt thermonuclear iron is required in order to solder big components to ground planes with that nasty lead-free stuff, but I fear radioactive waste... :D |
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| CBS240 |
| Just saw this stuff called aluminoy or something like that. It is for clean welding of aluminum and is slightly harder, but melts at around 750 degrees F. You can use a propane torch to weld aluminum such as Al engine heads or transmission cases...or heatsinks? don't know thermal properties though. It is used like soldering pipes without flux. Has anyone seen or heard of this stuff? |
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| AndrewT |
Hi,
if it resembles something I used twenty years ago, it is more akin to a solder for aluminium rather than a weld.
I used it to make a little box, edges not nearly as neat as real soldering.
The big down fall for your application; not as strong as the parent alloy and some casting will have constituents that do not suit soldering.
Preheating your castings may help. |
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| richwalters |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eva
I fear radioactive waste... :D |
Hi there .....By the way, which policy do you want ? with a risk of completely changing the topic and (burying myelf) we cannot do away with nuclear power to heat my irons. There simply isn't enough of that other stuff about...Dunno ? :scratch: ?
As with Eva I'm at (home) soldering using combination volatile resin flux solders.. It remains the best. However, remarking to an earlier post I don't agree with using acid flux with electronics stuff.....this is no mix and bound to create future trouble.
I must confess that I'm having I'm often changing iron tips for more heat and often use a 2nd iron with a third hand to get more heat. Livi'n in the past ? Yup.... doubt I will ever change.
richj |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | Originally posted by richwalters
Livi'n in the past ? |
Like this, you mean ? |
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| mzzj |
| quote: | Originally posted by CBS240
Just saw this stuff called aluminoy or something like that. It is for clean welding of aluminum and is slightly harder, but melts at around 750 degrees F. You can use a propane torch to weld aluminum such as Al engine heads or transmission cases...or heatsinks? don't know thermal properties though. It is used like soldering pipes without flux. Has anyone seen or heard of this stuff? |
Techno-weld and Loctite Alusol comes to my mind. |
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| Pan |
I have now tried Kester '275' and it works fine. Anyone have experience with this and compared to other Lead free types/brands?
/Peter |
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| walkura |
To be honest i hate the stuff .
And i must add that i think Eva is right what we do have to start managing better is our resources .
The EU and all other *regulating* instances can say so much what does it help when China produces 3 $ mp3 players while turning the river into toxic lemonade .
At work we use additional flux to be able to produce a produkt you can present a customer (we buy barrels of topnik).
I have serious doubt if the leadfree option is less poluting if factory's use more fluxes to work with that rubbish politicians force upon them .
But i'm fairly sure that the electronics industry is in the end (the products you make will end up in the enviroment eventualy) one of the most poluting .
Semiconductors contain very toxic substances and most will not be properly disposed of .
Recycling will be the answer ,cause like Eva said our resources aint lasting forever .
Somewhere about 30 years ago i read a newspaper article where they estimated our copper reserves would last another 20 years ,we made 30 so far and maybe recycling gave us some slack but i foresee *mining* old garbage dumps for raw materials some day .
anyway @Eva no no no radioactive powered soldering irons are bad (i have a allergy for nuclear material) |
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| Nordic |
| Which soldertype would be best for sterling silver immersion PCBs? |
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| nutdp |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jneutron
[B]
I use tin silver because of it's higher strength capability. I use it for all joints which will be subjected to cryogenic operation, either liquid nitrogen or liquid helium. The joints range from #40 awg copper all the way to 10 inch long half inch wide joints of super cable. So far, with in excess of 20 thousand joints, and temp cycling for the last 5 years, only one solder joint failed. It turned out to be a joint that was not done properly nor inspected.
With proper flux, cleaning, and heating, the joints will not be poor, it just takes time, teaching, and methods to do it right.
Can you post or e-mail some references to publications where I could see reference to this, particularly in reference to LN2 or LHe operation? |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | | Originally posted by nutdp Can you post or e-mail some references to publications where I could see reference to this, particularly in reference to LN2 or LHe operation? [/B] |
No I cannot. Not because I don't want to, but rather, because they do not exist on the outside world.
Honestly, when I had to develop all the process details for LHe capable solder joints, there were no publications or references, so I had to do it all myself. Twas a time when I was (perhaps arguably so) the most experienced one on the planet with lead free cryo soldering...but I believe the chaps at CERN are now the most experienced, and I gave them all the documentation I had done as a base to work from for the LHC assembly.
I can answer any specific question you may have, either online or off. I think others would benefit from the discussion if you can ask them online..
If you have proprietary questions, PM me. If you wish discussion entirely outside the diy system, let me know..
MRI or power delivery questions??
Cheers, John |
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| ak_47_boy |
| Solder is complicated business. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by ak_47_boy
Solder is complicated business. |
No, actually it's not all that bad.
It's a technology that's been around for two thousand years.
Cheers, John |
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| auplater |
| quote: | Originally posted by ak_47_boy
Solder is complicated business. |
can you say "eutectic"? ;)
I recall we had problems at cryo temps back 35 years ago when I was at NRAO helping make schottky point contact diodes detectors. Not all of the "eutectic" alloys out there are mfg. as eutectics.
Then there were the josephson junction days, trying to bond to niobium @ tens of degrees kelvin...:(
John L. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by auplater
can you say "eutectic"? ;)
I recall we had problems at cryo temps back 35 years ago when I was at NRAO helping make schottky point contact diodes detectors. Not all of the "eutectic" alloys out there are mfg. as eutectics.
Then there were the josephson junction days, trying to bond to niobium @ tens of degrees kelvin...:(
John L. |
Why would the alloy accuracy affect the process? Tens of degrees Kelvin is above the lead point, so phase constituents are not the issue, eh?
Did you mean ""bond niobium at 183 C for use at tens of kelvin""?
Cheers, John |
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| djQUAN |
guys,
if someone sends me an ROHS compliant device and wants me to repair it, what type of solder do they use? is there a standard solder manufacturers use?
will normal 60/40 or 63/37 with flux work with that or do I have no choice but buy lead free solder for use on it? I've looked around and no one over here carries lead free solder. :smash: we only have 60/40 and very few 63/37. |
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| jneutron |
| quote: | Originally posted by djQUAN
guys,
if someone sends me an ROHS compliant device and wants me to repair it, what type of solder do they use? is there a standard solder manufacturers use?
will normal 60/40 or 63/37 with flux work with that or do I have no choice but buy lead free solder for use on it? I've looked around and no one over here carries lead free solder. :smash: we only have 60/40 and very few 63/37. |
If you wish it to remain ROHS compliant, you need to solder with lead free. At the very worst case, buy some lead free plumbing solder and use some paste flux that is R type. I use nokorode type R paste with tin/silver alloys...I've used both the alcohol based liquid as well as the petrolatum based paste. If this is a work related problem, I can give you more details on the flux, they can buy a pound or two from distribution in the US, or I believe, from reps in either asia or europe.
If not, using 60/40 will be more than adequate. As a plus, it gives you a little headroom with regard to the melting temperature, as 60/40 is 183 C, lead free typically 221 C.
Cheers, John |
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| djQUAN |
no, it's not work related, I just fix amps here and there but not full time. ;)
I just saw an amp here that was rohs compliant and realized what am I gonna do when one of them sits on my bench for repairs.
rohs don't seem to be making any effect or hasn't been implemented over here so I can still use regular leaded solder.
thanks for the info!! :D |
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