| hifiZen |
Hear yee, hear yee! :sarge:
This is official notice to all forum members that manufacturing of the wessol / carpenter PCB design is going ahead as planned. All interested members who want to get in on the action, please contact carpenter ASAP! He will be directing the effort from here, and I beleive has things queued up to place the order about one week from today, so don't miss out!
Please note that although this board has been built and verified to work by wessol, it has not been exhaustively tested with different transistor types and rail voltages etc, so circuit changes aren't recommended unless you have the tools and ability to test and troubleshoot the circuit for stability. In all probability will work just fine, but if you're planning to build this board, you should be aware that it is an "alpha" revision.
Thanks to wessol and carpenter for their efforts in putting together one of the first Aleph-X board layouts, and being so generous as to offer it for public consumption!
:up: |
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| hifiZen |
Also, please note that development of a more flexible, "unified" Aleph-X PCB will be ongoing in the main Aleph-X thread. The concept right now is to come up with a PCB layout incorporating some "just-in-case" changes and some alternate circuitry on the PCB. This will be built from the ground up (or starting with one of the other member's existing designs). It will undergo a prototyping fabrication run as revision "beta", and be assembled and tested by members who elect to participate in the beta test. If found stable and reliable, the design will be released as rev1.0 and development / debugging will proceed from there. Schematic variations which use the same board will be "blessed" and added as verified configurations of the rev1.0 board as members build and test them.
The process of developing the beta and rev1.0 boards will take some time... a schedule has yet to be determined. As such, these boards will not be available in the immediate future. |
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| carpenter |
Hi everyone,
I'm having the artwork converted to "gerber". It should transpire the week of 11/4/02.
Quick quote prices from ECD for pcbs with standard features are as follows:
20 pcbs = $17.45 each
30 pcbs = $13.28 each
40 pcbs = $11.20 each
50 pcbs = $ 9.95 each
80 pcbs = $ 8.08 each
Because of the many developments regarding future pcb improvements, please email me if you wish to begin working with this current style pcb. For anyone who's unaware, the email link is located at the bottom of this post. After hearing the excellent sound of Shawn Wessel's AX, I'm planning on purchasing 6 pcbs for my projects.
By the way, this pcb was designed to allow for extra components used in the larger Aleph amps (Aleph 2, 3, 5). It can be likened to a pair of Alephs on a single board, ie. extra space for power resistors, off board power and ccs transistors, etc. A while back, I posted a schematic on the "Aleph X" thread depicting similarities in layout to the larger Alephs.
Thanks,
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Hi everyone,
As of today, 11-4-02, there are confirmed requests for 26 pcbs. This is beginning to look positive.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
We end this day with a total count of 32 pcbs. Excellent progress in the last 24 hours.
Thanks guys,
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
| We're now up to 36 pcbs. |
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| carpenter |
38 pcbs have been requested.
I've been in contact with a fellow at Mega Circuits. He has offered to use my artwork as "camera ready", which means I don't have to pay someone to convert it to gerber. They have given me a written quote of $5.06 per pcb for 40 pcbs. There is a tooling fee of $175.00. When split 40 ways, the tooling fee and the pcb charge add up to $9.44 per board. Now this an even better purchase than quoted by ECD.
We nearly have 40 request. So for now the cost (minus shipping) will be $9.44 per pcb. There will be a three week lead time.
I mentioned on the "beta" thread that I didn't mind waiting for the beta pcb design as long as it didn't take too long. I also realize that it's not fair to place unnecessary pressure on these guys to hurry their progress. I also mentioned that this pcb is a "treat" for those of us who want to play now. We can always purchase the more advanced pcb when it is finished. I'm listening to Shawn Wessol's AX daily and am more and more impressed with the sound. When the wife is out of town, I really crank the system up. With the Zen the sound was nice but not necessarily effortless. The AX on the other hand has power to spare. It's much brighter sounding than the Zen. I can hear details that the Zen misses. The AX is truly a design that's worth experimenting with. |
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| BrianGT |
How efficient are your speakers that you are running the AX with?
--
Brian |
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| carpenter |
I'm fully horn loaded on the left channel and horn loaded from 350hz on up on the right. The AX is running the high frequency horns (350hz to 20,000hz) which are rated by JBL at 110db 1w1m. This also explains why I get a little bit of hum from most amplifiers.
This morning, 11-7-02 I received a request for another 4 pair of pcbs. That brings the total up to 46. Yeah.........
This post will remain up another week or so and then I will place the order. This could all change if everyone emails me and request the beta board instead. Some alpha orders have been canceled in favor of the beta. Like I implied in the "beta" thread, I plan to purchase the beta pcb as well as the alpha pcb. This way, I can play very soon and still have the advanced pcb for another exercise in perfection. After the alpha purchase, I believe that we should also purchase "in mass" the beta pcb in an effort to make it cost effective for those guys. Even though the economy is depressed, most anyone should be able to come up with a spare $30.00 for a pair. This support substantially reduces the cost per item for everyone.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Hi everyone,
Our count is up to 52 pcbs.
This is just excellent. Our price per board is reduced to $8.42 (minus shipping).
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Here's a convenient schematic for the alpha AX pcb. If anyone discovers any errors, please let me know so that I can make corrections.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
I'm submitting the schematics in bmp format. It might be clearer.
On my computer, this is a cleaner copy.
John Inlow |
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| BrianGT |
gifs are usually the best format for exporting schematics. They give you almost the same quality as bmps and much smaller file sizes.
--
Brian |
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| BrianGT |
zipped gif. To get the best gif quality, save the bmp in 256 colors, then convert to gif. The quality is basically the same.
1.35mb down to 67k
--
Brian |
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| grataku |
John,
Grey's schematic better be right, everything is based on that.;) I thought you were going to show the layout with some mods and a new schematic.
Anyways Chad rightfully pointed out that the 3 ohm from input diodes to ground need not be 3W, to that let me add that Pass/Macmillian resistors from out to S of in.diff.pair could be as low as 1k. |
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| carpenter |
Hi Brian,
I tried a gif file, but it always came out too large for this forum to accept. I'll play with it some more.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Hi Grataku,
Your avatar is extremely distracting. I have to place my thumb over it in order to read your post.
I mainly wanted to demonstrate in my drawing how the contents of the blue boxes connect to off board transistors. I based my drawings on Grey's schematics.
John |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"Grey's schematic better be right, everything is based on that."
Hmmmmmmmm...... I think everyone should realize that this not an actual Nelson Pass design. Too bad Grey never actually finished the amp to the point of bandwidth, stability, and noise measurements. Not to mention reactive load test, clipping test, turn on and turn off transient test, and listening test/tweaks. I hope someone will actually do the work required in "designing" an amp past the point of throwing a schematic together and pretending that is all there is to it. I would go back and very carefully look at the Passlabs Aleph schematics and look at the differences between the "Aleph X" and real life Aleph amps on which it was based. I guess X might stand for the unknown. I wonder what this thing does when the outputs are shorted together or one shorted to ground?
Just thinking out loud,
Fred
PS maybe you should drop official from the thread title since I can't imagine the context in which official is implied. |
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| carpenter |
Regarding the AX's present state of development, I can tell you this much: Shawns Wesssol's amp doesn't have any turn on/off transients that's I can hear. I'm running his amp on my JBL 2446 compression drivers with a large 150 hz tractrix horn. The driver is rated by JBL at 110 db 1w1m. If there were turn on/off transients, I would think the horns are quite capable of announcing them. The amp is capable of delivering more wattage to the horns than my ears can handle.
The sound from this amp is the best I've ever heard in any amp. It does what I expect a premium amp to do. It's output sound is clean, crisp and has extremely detailed reproduction. There is a little hum, which I CAN'T hear from the listening position. The hum may be due any number of factors. When I have my AX under construction, I will play with noise limiting techniques.
Eventually, the boys developing the beta boards will have their design sorted out. IF there is a problem with Grey's design, they will undoubtedly discover and remove the offending error.
I'm a carpenter and what I do is fabricate things. I have faith in Grey's design. I have faith in Nelson's comments regarding Greys work. I also have respect for the hard working guys developing the beta pcb. One day, we will arrive. I intend to own 6 pcb from the alpha and 6 pcbs from the beta groups.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
| I'm loading the schematics as a gif file as suggested by Brian. I've noticed that the trick to reading downloaded files is to expand them to 100%. If they are smaller, the resolution will be poor. |
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| grataku |
Carpenter,
my avatar is there to annoy Fred. Since that didn't stop him I might as well remove it! ;)
:yawn: :yawn:
Fred
Point 1. I think you should read more than the 1st line of my posts. You would read that the I have already listed the extensive testing that WILL be done on the prototype.
Point 2. You have no idea about what Grey has done, for what you know, he may be listening to his AX to your face :drink: One think is for sure he has come up with the design, if it wasn't for him you wouldn't have many bull-ets to shoot.
Have you finished the Tex-x? :down:? :up:?
How about doing that and reporting on the results? Maybe the problem with the tex-x is HH current source. Luckly I included Grey's original in my layout. Just something for you to chew on.
:yawn: :yawn: |
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| carpenter |
Hi there grataku,
If your avatar is designed to annoy Fred, I'll pay for the bandwidth to DOUBLE its size!
John Inlow |
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| grataku |
Unfortunately, that ain't going too be enough.
I often wonder how average folks like you and I can keep such an evolved being so entertained. Maybe he's studying us. :scratch2: |
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| carpenter |
Hi guys,
Well, we're up to 58 boards.
I would like to submit the final count by next Friday (I think that falls on the 15th). It would be useful if I had some cash to pay for this order. I'm able to accept cash, cashier's check, or money order. I'm not set up for pay pal, as a carpenter my customers pay me directly. It's looking like a pair of pcbs plus packaging/shipping would run around U.S. $25.00 to $30.00. Send me U.S. $30.00, I'll mail the surplus back to you. If you want 4 pcbs, then double that amount. Again, the surplus will be mailed back to you. My mailing address is:
John Inlow
13720 S. Clackamas River Dr.
Oregon City, OR 97045
I want to thank everyone for their interest in these boards. This has been quite an adventure.
John Inlow |
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| dice45 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Yes and I have invited him to come back on the forum and tell us.
Grey come back please......... I promise to be gentle. ... |
:bigeyes:...:drool:...:nod:...:cheerful: |
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| grataku |
"Yes and I have invited him to come back on the forum and tell us.
Grey come back please......... I promise to be gentle."
Fred
I have a pretty good guess that Grey doesn't give a rat's about coming back here. He's never going to get back what he can put into here, so we need him infinitely more than he needs us. I am pretty sure that he's working on something cool and thanks to you :joker: we are probably never going to know about.
I have been looking at the last few posts of yours around the site mostly because you keep quoting me, I found that moderately amusing, and wanted to amuse myself some more.
You basically sit back and look at what other people wrote and when something looks sensible enough you seem to give your seal of approval like you have been knowing that all along.
Well, I think that little game is growing thin, it has been a while since you posted that CCS circuit that you probably copied from somewhere, I guess it's time for you to show a token of original thinking because your lease on being smart and knowledgeable is running out. |
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| halojoy |
I guess it's time for you to show a token of original thinking because your lease on being smart and knowledgeable is running out
Do not be too hard on Fred. I think he is providing above average.
Myself is surely far behind.
:mad: And what would Forum be without all our "profiles" hanging around? |
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| BrianGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
I have been looking at the last few posts of yours around the site mostly because you keep quoting me, I found that moderately amusing, and wanted to amuse myself some more.
You basically sit back and look at what other people wrote and when something looks sensible enough you seem to give your seal of approval like you have been knowing that all along.
Well, I think that little game is growing thin, it has been a while since you posted that CCS circuit that you probably copied from somewhere, I guess it's time for you to show a token of original thinking because your lease on being smart and knowledgeable is running out. |
I don't agree with this. I find some of Fred's posts insightful. I doubt that he copied the CCS from somewhere. Why are you so negative against him? I feel that this forum would be at a loss without him.
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Brian |
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| carpenter |
I think almost everyone would agree that Fred is sharp. Fred's social interactions with this group demonstrates to me that he also has fangs and isn't afraid to bite. How would you feel about your neighbor owning a temperamental pitbull? The animal is powerful and tends to be respected because of that power, yes, and yet they always feel a bit of trepidation; is his leash strong enough? Fred reminds me of a loose pitbull looking for someone to pit his strength against. This takes much of the fun out of belonging to this forum.
John Inlow |
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| grataku |
Fred, Jalojoy and BrianGT,
I don't know what's got into me that time. Sorry ya'll!:angel: |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"Fred
I have a pretty good guess that Grey doesn't give a rat's about coming back here. He's never going to get back what he can put into here, so we need him infinitely more than he needs us. I am pretty sure that he's working on something cool and thanks to you we are probably never going to know about."
No I am not going to take the rap for that one and the forum did not dry up with his absence. ,How in the hell can anybody be afraid of someone on a web forum? It's a forum of ideas. If you put forth a theory or design you are fair game for discussion, analysis, criticism, deconstruction, and even praise. I refuse to take credit for running someone off. I am subject to the same scrutiny of my ideas, designs, and opinions as everybody else here, maybe more so. If one does not have the conviction of thier ideas to throw them into the bright light of the forum, I suggest the option of peer review via Email to the smaller circle of one's friends and associates. In my engineering career I have been present at many design reviews at both the giving and recieving end. It keeps one on thier toes and is a great educational tool that results in better designs and more important, better designers . I always wished I had even more people looking at my work to see what I might be overlooking. The input from Nelson Pass is the ultimate in peer review and a luxury that we all have had here. I wonder if some of the past frequent past contributers have run away due the very high level of technical discourse present here at this point. I guess it is much easier to blame it on "some bully" than than to indulge in self examination of the quality of the ideas one has posted.
Again I will ask, Grey why not come back and participate in the harvest of the results of the seeds you have planted on the Aleph X?
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but web post will never hurt me,
Fred |
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| carpenter |
Hi Fred,
You describe yours as a vigorous life in the engineering field and that's the way it goes, I suppose. It's also your job and one has to accept the pros and cons of his/her job. Here, in the forum, is an environment that I don't consider to be a job and therefore, I don't really care to deal with someone hammering on egos. And yet, here you are, forcing me to stretch my boundaries. It's not easy, I don't like it, but then again, perhaps that's just life.
I'm not an engineer, I remodel homes for a living. I'm pretty good at it too. Not having a background in electronics makes this a difficult hobby for me. I'm good at fabricating an amplifier, and I've learned to read schematics to a degree. Today, because of your attitude Fred, I don't want to ask any technical questions of the group because I feel that I'm going to be slammed. You hammered me hard when I asked the group to go in on a pcb purchase with me. Now, gathering parts for an amplifier is the easy part for me. Yet, you slammed my spirit. I almost quit. If you can harm me with something I'm good at, I wonder what damage you'll inflict with something I'm not good at i.e. electronics design.
John Inlow |
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| halojoy |
hifiZen:
"Thanks to wessol and carpenter for their efforts in putting together one of the first Aleph-X board layouts, and being so generous as to offer it for public consumption!"
I have had a look at the PCB-layout.
Fantastic!
More than one professionally working designer have reason to be envious, when seeing the result.
A lot of members are surely greatful for the ability to use that design.
We all should be proud to have such competent people around here.
Also sets an good example, for what can be done
by us do-it-yourselvers.
I bow! |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
"Today, because of your attitude Fred, I don't want to ask any technical questions of the group because I feel that I'm going to be slammed."
That is the last thing that will get you slammed from me. I wish the people that think they know everything, would ask questions. I have respect for people who want to learn. I will save my slamming for the self proclaimed experts who want to "teach" others without any grasp of the subject matter themselves. I have spent my whole life asking questions and I don't plan to stop anytime soon. Nobody has ever hammered on my ego here have they?:smash:
Fred |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by carpenter
Here, in the forum, is an environment that I don't consider to be a job and therefore, I don't really care to deal with someone hammering on egos. And yet, here you are, forcing me to stretch my boundaries. It's not easy, I don't like
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I think that on the forum it's much easier to force ones ego, because you do it from behind the cover of your keyboard and you don't really have to face the other party directly. There is nothing here to like or dislike. It's either acceptance or avoidance. If one however decides to avoid, one might loose an opportunity. So calculate your priorities accordingly. And I'm not really talking here to you John, but in general.
And I agree that it's mostly what life is all about.
| quote: | Originally posted by carpenter
but then again, perhaps that's just life.
I'm not an engineer, I remodel homes for a living. I'm pretty good at it too. Not having a background in electronics makes this a difficult hobby for me. I'm good at fabricating an amplifier, and I've learned to read schematics to a degree. Today, because of your attitude Fred, I don't want to ask any technical questions of the group because I feel that I'm going to be slammed. You hammered me hard when I asked the group to go in on a pcb purchase with me. Now, gathering parts for an amplifier is the easy part for me. Yet, you slammed my spirit. I almost quit. If you can harm me with something I'm good at, I wonder what damage you'll inflict with something I'm not good at i.e. electronics design.
John Inlow |
;)
John, I'm quite like you. I don't have EE background and I'm good at remodeling houses (I did few of them, including mine). But I don't really care what Fred or Grey say and I'm not ashamed of my limitations in electronics knowledge. I give to the forum what I can and I grab whatever I find useful.;)
But I also don't act like a little girl whose good time is spoiled by a bully coming to her playground.
You were right about the demand for your board and the numbers confirm it. Fred was not right and he knows about it. He is probably little bored so from time to time he throws remarks about lack of stability concerning Aleph X design, but you know that Wessol built it and it works fine. So what is a problem here? It's a forum and everybody is allowed to express his opinion. And it doesn't mean that everybody has to accept it or agree. |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
| Or maybe he is not bored but does so from the experience with building amps, tweaking the Aleph3, running simulations,and STUDYING NELSON PASS'S PUBLISHED ALEPH DESIGNS. Keep in mind that there is wide lattitude in layout, resistor values, and Mosfet choices all which have very real effects on stability. Everybody is free to do thier own thing. I am not out to spoil anyone's fun. If you are going to copy something I would look closely at the all the Aleph designs as well as Mr. Pass's articles. I would not assume the documentation from someone who has shown technical mistakes on several ocassions to be state of the art design. I am sorry that amplifier design is not as simple as falling off a log but it is not. Not for me and i think not for everyone else either. I am starting to think my crime is not hand holding everyone through this project. I am not the one who started this project if you will remember and the one who did seems to be AWOL on all of this. |
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| rtirion |
| quote: | Originally posted by Peter Daniel
...it. He is probably little bored so from time to time he
throws remarks about lack of stability concerning Aleph X design,
but you know that Wessol built it and it works fine. So what is a
problem here? It's a forum and everybody is allowed to express
his opinion. And it doesn't mean that everybody has to accept it. |
Or maybe Fred is trying to prevent future dissapointments, ruined
speakers, fireworks, etc.
This has been said before, but it looks like he is the lonesome
cowboy in a dessert yelling out. ( Does this make sense?)
One of Fred's recent posts asked a few questions like:
1-What will happen when the +output and -output are a dead
short?
2-What will happen when one or both of the outputs is a short to
ground?
I did some carefull tests (non destructive) on one of my finished
channels, and I do not like the results. I will have to fix that
But maybe you think the Aleph-X is a finished design. To me it is not.
Regards |
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| Peter Daniel |
| I know what you mean.:) While I'm building my Aleph X, I'm actually changing all the components values and I have no clue how it's going to turn out in the end.;) |
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| grataku |
John,
"That is the last thing that will get you slammed from me"
Fred the is correct, you'll be mocked, ridiculed, finger pointed and laughed at. If you are lucky, you'll be associated with a funny picture and made one of the :joker:'s play things. Most definitely you won't get slammed.
Fred,
I am asking you a direct question: where you get your narcotics so I can mine there myself? You quite obviously told Peter, I think you should tell me too. |
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| carpenter |
I've enjoyed reading the recent post.
Like many humans, I'm a little timid when it comes to hanging out with the really, really big boys. Then again, I don't think of myself as a little girl in the school yard, or Fred as a bully coming to take my candy. BUT, I was mortified to see the pcb momentum fall off so rapidly after Fred's prior posts. It seemed that if we proceeded with the pcb purchase that we'd be sued by Nelson Pass, or that we'd torch our speakers, or at the very least, the end of the Earth was at hand. Fortunately, hifiZen (Chad) came on board as chairman and the momentum has gathered once more.
Now Fred shows a softer side:
Fred, I'm pleased to read your statements regarding the educating of us less fortunate. And, if you don't mind me asking, what's wrong with a little "hand holding".
It's been a pleasure hanging with you folks.
John Inlow |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
You quite obviously told Peter, I think you should tell me too. |
Although I know, as a moderator I can't use them.;) Let's get back to more important issues.
rtirion,
I noticed you chose to use 220k feedback resistor and 100k for input impedance. Any particular reason for that? |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by rtirion
1-What will happen when the +output and -output are a dead
short?
2-What will happen when one or both of the outputs is a short to
ground?
I did some carefull tests (non destructive) on one of my finished
channels, and I do not like the results. |
I shorted the output of my A75 amp and you don't want to know what happend. But it happened only once, and since I'm careful now, for the last six years I didn't have any accidents.;) |
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| halojoy |
non-destructive
how can such a test be non-destructive?
how you do that? :confused: |
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| grataku |
Halojoy,
all you need to do is use a variac and work your way up monitoring currents, voltages, input and output waveforms. You stop when things get too weird. Here you may want to give full power to the input and low power to output to see a more realistic picture.
As far as what happens I don't need a simulator to predict a few boiling plate outcomes. Peter didn't know a priori what would happen and didn't like what happened when he shortened the output of his A75 to ground but that didn't stop him from either building it, using it, and enjoying it, right Pete?
What happens if you drop a 50 lb barbell on your turntable tone arm? I have a more colorful parallel but I voluntarily :censored: myself. Bottom line:who cares?
More interesting would be to know what happens if one drives the amp single ended. Maybe when Fred takes a break from BS-ing he could tell us mere monkeys.
shorting + and - outs: since dc should be about equal there should not be a high DC current flow, bias current should continue to flow to the preferred -15v, on the ac side however things will probably go nuts, generate huge transients, self oscillation or whatever that will claim the life of the components in short order.
shorting 1 out to ground: will probably do what it does on 110% of the amps in the world, kill the output devices and very likely dump PS voltage on the speaker.
These catastrophic scenarios should probably be investigated just so that people know what to expect but that should not discourage anyone from building the AX. |
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| Peter Daniel |
Actually shorting one output to ground shouldn't be catastrophic since a current limiter built around Q4 and Q9 (on latest schematic) should protect the outputs like in a regular Aleph.
I asked the question before, and Nelson replied that if you make shure that you don't connect the outputs with a ground you don't really need it. So I'm not using it in my Aleph X.;) |
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| grataku |
So you are doing away with the whole current sensing resistor??!
Note to self: ****.
There you have it! Thanks Pete. |
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| jh6you |
:yikes:
****...? Read The F-king Manual...? |
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| carpenter |
Hi everyone,
Today, 11/10/02, we have reached the 60 pcb mark. The cost of the boards should be around $8.00 each at this rate.
My thanks goes out to everyone envolved.
John Inlow |
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| grataku |
| I don't know if netlingo constitutes a violation of diyaudio regs. Haven't thought of that. :angel: |
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| halojoy |
I am afraid me and the other newcomers
are living questionmarks all too often
Be aware that we are read by many more than those
who regulary post messages.
Like Nelson Pass does in both amplifiers
and language (choice of expressions):
Keep It Simple and Clear
:att'n: |
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| jh6you |
I think that the netlingo does not violate.
But, the abused netlingo could give persons shorted circuits.
JH |
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| AudioFreak |
Net Lingo is fine so long as it is not used in a derogatory / defamatory / abusive fashion.
Regards,
AudioFreak
diyAudio Moderator. |
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| halojoy |
abusive; I knew that word before
derogatory; found in my English-Swedish dictionary
defamatory; was not known, neither found in dictionary
but I guess it comes out of "fame"
de-fame should then means something like - giving a person a bad reputation
so now I know ;) simple as that ..... |
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| rtirion |
Thanks grataku.
The answers in your post, give a good indication of what will
happen in the case of shorted output. Yes, I did test using a
variac.
I am a little sad, though. It seems that you really do not care to
much about these issues. This could suggest that it is not
necessary to deal with them. I think that is not correct.
Don't get me wrong. I would not want to discourage anybody to
build the Aleph-X. Is it not a good idea to make this amp more
bulletproof?
Peter,
The values around the current limiter Q4 and Q9 should be
reconsidered. I do not think it is wise to leave the current limiters
out of the circuit.
Regards |
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| till |
grataku,| quote: | | shorting 1 out to ground: will probably do what it does on 110% of the amps in the world, kill the output devices and very likely dump PS voltage on the speaker |
canīt be 110% because its less than 100. If I short the outputs of my Zens, speaker also connected to the output, the music gets only less loud. |
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| Peter Daniel |
Till, you should know by now that Zen output is capacitor coupled so you can short it. It's different with Aleph X.
rtirion,
I want my circuit to be as simple and pure as possible, so that's why I leave the current limiter and input protection Zeners out of a circuit. I also hope it might improve sonics a bit. When my A75 40V DC hit the speakers I was left out with $500 driver replacement bill. Guess, some people never learn on mistakes.;) |
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| grataku |
Till. rtrion and others,
as Peter corrected me earlier, there is a current limiter in the aleph, I went back, RTM, and so, though I will not try that while my oris horn is hooked up, single out to ground should not be a problem the output could pretty much be 1/4. Although I am not absoultely convinced. 2 outs to ground should be equivalent to shorting the 2 two outs together, things there could get more tricky to predict and perhaps more damaging.
My point was simply to illustrate that with a rational approach these problems can be dealt with, and that freaking out over these issues is counterproductive.
I am done talking about it, my next report will be factual, as it should have been for the people in a more advanced stage of the construction. Although I have a PhD in a different field, I am not an EE (TG), so lot will be rediscover of hot water for which I expect to get cremated by some of the more electronically oriented members but hopefully my struggle will create some momentum and generate new and useful info.
Of course there are many people that could do it right now. Or beat me to it. |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
I don't think so..... The circuit is not balanced at that point. Shorting one output to ground is more what would imagine a typical fault condition to be, ie. having a speaker cable come loose and touch the chassis. Also let me be clear that by shorting I meaning shorting a cable while music is playing. Swaping cables and speakers is a pretty common experience for us audio tweakers. I will bet money someone is going to short something at some point. The amount of alchoholic beverage disscussen on the forum also makes this seem like a pretty safe bet.
Please tell us what your PhD is in, so us simple minded engineers can stand in suitable awe. I am sure you can learn everything you need to know about EE in a couple of weekends reading though.
Bogons,
Fred |
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| Peter Daniel |
| Fred is right . Shorting one of the outputs to the ground is a typical short with big current going through. Shorting two outputs together, what would actually happen? |
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| mlloyd1 |
rtition:
This was good of you to bring up, especially when we have numbers of folks who, because of their background, may not think so carefully about these very important aspects of DIY amp design and building. Reminds me of some regulator discussions a year or so ago (elsewhere) with designs that would work fine once they started, but were not properly designed to start reliably. ;)
mlloyd1
| quote: | Originally posted by rtirion
...One of Fred's recent posts asked a few questions like:
1-What will happen when the +output and -output are a dead
short?
.....I did some carefull tests (non destructive) on one of my finished
channels, and I do not like the results. I will have to fix that
....Regards [/B] |
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| mlloyd1 |
D%$m, all those years I wasted studying hard ... ;)
... NOT!
I hear you, Fred.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
... I am sure you can learn everything you need to know about EE in a couple of weekends reading though.
Bogons,
Fred |
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| grataku |
Fred,
no one cares what you "don't think" happens. At least I did more than you in proposing some starting points, I never claimed to be right.
I always found it extremely easy to proofread someone else's work.
So here is either a matter of giving you free bullets to shoot back at me or sit back and wait for granpa to show me how it's done? No thanks, I'll burn my own speakers before I do that.
Send me a private mail I'll be glad to discuss some science at large with you. |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
I guess you had better take a poll on that one. You still haven't
told what your PhD (piled higher and deeper) is in. I think this group needs a guru but I'm definitely not the one for it. I have an Aleph X type amp about 80% done. Where's your's gratakuitous?
If this project is so slam dunk there should be a dozen of these things going by now....
Fred
P.S. your IP indicates you are at MIT, is this correct. |
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| jam |
Fred,
You mean the Tex-X or was that Tex-Mex.....................;)
Jam |
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| Tony D. |
While I have not contributed to the technical discussion in this thread I have enjoyed reading it, up to the point at which it appears that a personnal ****ing match has erupted.
With all due repect to my electronics betters on this board it is this behavior that can tear a discussion board apart so would it be possible for everyone to put their Johnsons back in their trousers and talk audio?
Thank You.
Tony D. |
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| grataku |
Fred, you are no paying enough attention, I declared my major before on this site.
Took a lot of hard work to get it, I bet you had much more time to climb the lather of corporate america and rip all the benefits. Although my location sounds fancy I am still making 32K/year and still in the lab at 3am. That may explain the lack of time to read about EE stuff, the lack of money to buy a pcb and finish the X, and my frequent bad mood for which I offer my apology.
and with that I salute you. :) |
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| Fred Dieckmann |
William Z. Johnson, President
Audio Research Corporation |
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| roddyama |
| quote: | William Z. Johnson, President
Audio Research Corporation |
Way too funny... ROTFLMAO.
Rodd Yamashita |
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| carpenter |
We've lost some momentum, folks.
Two people have dropped out and it cost us 4 pcbs.
Today's count is 56 pcbs.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Hey guys,
There's money coming my way for 18 pcbs. I want to place the order for 56 pcbs this Friday and I don't want to end up paying for all these boards myself. So, for my peace of mind, please email me and "show me the money".
Thanks,
John Inlow |
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| grataku |
So, for my peace of mind
John,
don't forget the peace of mind of the guys that paid already, too!
How about posting the list of members that didn't pay? That will maybe jolt their memory. |
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| halojoy |
| quote: | Originally posted by grataku
How about posting the list of members that didn't pay? |
How do I join the list
for those who want a board
but do not want to pay?
:confused: |
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| carpenter |
halojoy,
Did we lose something in the translation???????? |
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| carpenter |
Grataku,
The folks who haven't paid yet probably don't realize that I want the cash assurance prior to placing the order.
John |
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| Peter Daniel |
| quote: | Originally posted by halojoy
How do I join the list
for those who want a board
but do not want to pay?
:confused: |
If the demand arises, I can make another list for people like halojoy here.;) |
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| paulb |
Thank you, John, for taking the initiative and finding the time to do this. You are a true giver. I'm impressed enough to send some money across the border in good faith.
Paul
p.s. We're thinking of doing the Oregon coast sometime. |
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| carpenter |
Hey Paul,
Thanks for the generous compliment. If you're ever out near Portland, Oregon, look me up. I've love to visit.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
Hi all,
To everyone interested in the alpha boards; we're standing at 50 pcbs. That puts the price at $8.56 each. I'll be placing the order tomorrow (Friday). Many thanks for the support guys. If you want in, then please hurry.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
It's Friday morning and I've placed the pcb order. I ordered an additional 4 boards for anyone who reads these post late and didn't have time to place their order. Contact me if you're interested.
John Inlow |
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| carpenter |
I talked with Doug at Mega Circuits recently. He described the pcbs as being off-white with black silk-screening. The solder mask on the trace side is blue. This should be an attractive looking board. The boards have all of the standard features we desire.
Here's a parts list with many of the part numbers. Look it over and correct me if you discover any errors. |
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| ststone |
Thanks for all the good work!!
Can't wait till I get my boards and start building the beast. |
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| Brian Segura |
Could someone who will be placing the next order contact me and let me know so I can get in on the next order.
I could use 2 or 4
Much thanks!
-Brian |
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| Brian Segura |
I just sent John a email asking him to reserve me the last pair of boards.
Thanks to all
-Brian |
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| carpenter |
Sometimes I have difficulty linking names to monikers......
Will E.W. Dailey please email me? Your funds have arrived and I'm trying to figure out who you are on my list. Also, I need a more legible mailing address from you.
John |
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| carpenter |
For those who are wondering.....
The pcbs have been etched and are awaiting the next phase of manufacturing. Also, most of the funds have arrived, thank you very much!
If I recall correctly, the finished pcbs will ship from the mfg. Dec. 10th, or there abouts.
John |
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| carpenter |
| If someone wants to install comp caps into this AX pcb here is the location. Just find the cap named "CC" and follow the red dotted lines. |
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| carpenter |
| I forgot to mention; if you install comp caps, do so to both sides of the circuit board. This is a twin configuration. |
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| carpenter |
Hi folks,
Here's the latest email I received from Mega Circuits:
>John:
>The parts shipped and you should have them later this week. One difference, >?I forget that the material is yellow, UV block, so the
>mask ended up looking more green than blue. For the next order we can look >at a different color if you want. When you get the
>parts let me know what you think about the color.
>Doug Kellerstrass
>FR4 Sales Manager
>Mega Circuits
And there you have it, when I get the boards they'll be on their way; just in time for the holiday break.
John |
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| ststone |
| Just send them out, I can't wait (color-schmolor) |
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| carpenter |
Finally!
They look good. I'll be sending them out this week.
Several small glitches:
First: I remember asking for plated through holes. The holes are not plated through. I don't have the original website take-off form from Mega Circuits to refer back to. I can't find this particular request in writing through any of my correspondence with them. I remember verbal communication over the phone, but if it's not in writing, then there's probably nothing I can do. I tried the holes against the components and they feel just snug enough for an excellent fit.
Second: there are a few small printing errors in the transistor labeling dept. The bases "B" on Q4 Q8 Q9 are mislabeled as "A". I checked the boards against my art and my art is correct. I'll be emailing Mega Circuits about this little problem. It won't be difficult to work around. Heck, it makes it easy to identify the first thirty amplifiers. 100 years from now, when they become vintage, this will be the identifying mark.
Third: the board color is green, not white. The silkscreening is black, I would have asked for white if I'd known that the boards were going to be this dark. The labeling is decent quality, just a bit hard to read against the green backing.
I don't mean to sound picky, guys. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and just want everyone to be pleased with their purchase. I believe these pcbs will work just fine.
Happy holidays,
John Inlow |
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| grataku |
Good Christ,
it took them six weeks to make these PCBs and they still managed to get something f'd up? :bigeyes:
Who are these jokers?
The thru-hole plating especially it's a pretty big one. |
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| carpenter |
Actually, I placed the order Friday, November 15th. The boards were completed around December 5th. Add the weekend and another four days for shipping and Mega Circuits arrives at approx. the three week projection. The first several weeks were necessary for gathering interest and offering pcb artwork for the group's approval.
The boards are nice looking. They are of similar in quality to BrianGT's Aleph Clone pcbs, a little thinner though with black ink instead of white. The component holes are tight fitting, so there shouldn't be a problem with component leads making contact with the pads. The soldering pads are a bit larger than Brian's and should make soldering rather easy. If I had a digital camera, I'd offer everyone a snapshot.
I'm not displeased with these boards, just picky by nature.
John |
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| carpenter |
Ok, I got a reply from the supplier: Since I sent them single sided artwork, they manufactured single sided pcbs for this order. According to Doug, the salesman, I would have had to order double sided boards for plated through holes with $3.50/board in added expense. Now, this misunderstanding never seemed to be a problem with ECD and I never guessed that it would be a problem with Mega Circuits either.
Also, double sided pcbs have solder mask on both sides (our pcbs have the mask on the trace side) and the silk screening color is automatically white. Hummmmm. I wonder why I was told that the board color was off-white?
My apologies go out to anyone who feels that I let them down.
John Inlow |
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| MikeW |
| Thanks for putting in so much time. Things don't always come out exactly the way you want. I am sure it will sound great. |
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| Charles BL |
I'm willing to bet that my brother will think the amp I give him for his 50th sounds marvellous and I'll be sure to tell him the boards are FAMOUS! Thanks for your efforts.
Charles BL |
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