| jadenlinkletter |
My search for the ultimate in subwoofers has led me to three company's
Peerless
Eminence
Dayton Loudspeaker.
I have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours trying to find the perfect way to outsmart companies like electrovoice, jbl and so on.
I run a car audio store, i've done ALOT of installs, modeled and build ALOT of boxes, with ALOT of different subs and amps.
I am trying to tap into the pro sound market in my area. and i want the help of the experts here at diy audio.
Heres a list of my litle collection of subs.
(2) Lab 12's
(1) peerless XXLSP
(1) peerless XXLSS ( i ordered a PR to play with for theese too)
(1) dayton DVC 12
(1) dayton DVC 15
(1) dayton Titanic 10 AND 12
(2) dayton series II 15's
(1) dayton quatro 12
(1) dayton quatro 15
(1) dayton reference 12HO
(1) dayton reference 12HF
I have had alot of success, i've build a box for every one of theese subs (except the DVC15) and tested them.
i have full wholesale pricing on dayton peerless eminence and every other name you can think of.
I dont care what sub we use, how many, or how much they are, i dont even care if i have them yet, My proposal is lets make a BULLETPROOF design, tunning strictly for music, that will eat the **** out of anything out there on the pro sound market.
IM ALL EARS.
Linkletter |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
I like the cut of your gib, young Sir!
What you have to determine is exactly what you would describe as being able to fit the bill - horses for courses. Are we talking compact? are we talking extention? are we taliking a price-point or a compromise between all of the above?
I think ultimately, even in a cost-no-object cruisade, you're gonna hit a brick wall somewhere along the way. No cabinet resonances? - Go Dipole; problem is going to be the amount of Watts/Drivers employed. How big can you go? what is the highest frequency likely to be employed? - if we're talking sub 30Hz area we're not likely to be worried about the sonic vitues of a 2000W amp; if your going all the way up to 100Hz, perhapse we could do a multistage unit? different amps/drivers?
Cheers - Jezz |
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| jadenlinkletter |
haha. alright
size, is a factor, but not a crucial factor.
price point - CRUCIAL, the most important factor. because all i'll have goin for me with no name is a good price and a good product.
Extension - well, most dj's use 45hz high pass for doing dances. so thats not reall a factor. im talking strictly a music sub, that can GOB out the bass into that dance floor.
basically folks, its gotta be a miracle product. when i say miracle product. it has to do WAY more then expected, for MUCH less money then it has to right to.
Some things that i've been considering
1. extension to 35-40 is plenty.
2. i've thought about bandpass, but have ZERO experience with those kind of boxes.
BUT most of all. it has to be alot better then whats out there, and at alot better price.
just a thought, multiple 10's? might do the trick.
Linkletter. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
:angel: Given my limited exposure to the dance scene (ahem), I wouldn't think your task is unachievable. Work to a price - not a silly price; but perhapse the most you'd expect to pay for about the best in the bizz; I'm assuming you're not thinking of taking on the world - just yet:smash: incidentally - what price-point were you aiming for?
Then consider how you want to format the product; you can get a lot more "added value" out of an active design (from your perspective) than you can a passive - you've also some degree of assurance that the unit will be employed correctly.
What sort of SPL's do you want to hit?
-Jezz |
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| jadenlinkletter |
I will assume that the subs need to be suitable to 100 hz
this seems to be the prefered point of most dj's
tell me more about your dipole idea, im not even sure what a dipole sub is.
open back perhaps? what advatages do we get there,
multistage i think would be overkill. unless someone with more experience then me believes that the sound of a multistage unit will have a great impression on dj's that never use this type of equipment and are used to playing 100HZ with an 18 inch pro sound driver. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Forget my first posting; we're not talking audio nirvana here! costs would be incredible & the rest of the DJ's line up wouldn't approach the same level - you don't use a Bentley as a tow-truck! |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | Given my limited exposure to the dance scene (ahem), I wouldn't think your task is unachievable. Work to a price - not a silly price; but perhapse the most you'd expect to pay for about the best in the bizz; I'm assuming you're not thinking of taking on the world - just yet incidentally - what price-point were you aiming for? |
Fair enough.
My goal for spl. LOUD AS POSSIBLE, no holds barred.
now spl is so controverstial with bass. because the environment determines it.
Good rule of thumb, it has to hit harder then everything thats not horn loaded, if not harder, VERY CLOSE TO.
im looking at below 400 dollars cost pushing 500 if the extra money is worth it. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | Forget my first posting; we're not talking audio nirvana here! costs would be incredible & the rest of the DJ's line up wouldn't approach the same level - you don't use a Bentley as a tow-truck! |
haha, at least we're on the same level now.
Does anyone think it possible to make a product at local level that would be more appealing then the pro sound stuff out there.
Heres a few reasons i think i can do it
1. I have no overhead
2. I have real generous wholesale pricing.
3. I can build it considerably cheaper then what they're charging at retail stores. |
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| BassAwdyO |
This thread is difficult to understand...
What are we trying to do here exactly. Sounds like a "mega-value" system is the goal.
I'd go with a few 18" drivers in horn loaded enclosures. Go as large with the enclosures as is required for the lowest frequency you need to play(without significant attenuation)
*Edit* Posts seemed to have appeared as I was typing mine...
I guess horn enclosures are out? I guess 18" speakers are out? |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Active or Passive? |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | What are we trying to do here exactly. Sounds like a "mega-value" system is the goal. |
It is. Horn loaded is not an option. i've built a horn before. it took me 18 hours in the freezing cold with a hired carpenter. i'd rather sell bose then build another horn.
Deffinitly passive |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| You have to have a close look at your competition in this arena to fully appreciate where you can capitalise; in most cases (and I would stress not all) so-so drivers are screwed into a predetermined enclosure by someone who is guessing at what they are doing. Little attention is given to materials and bracing, and many rather crude mistakes can be unwittingly made. With a little forethought and care, the same designes can be replicated to a far higher standard with staggaring results. |
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| BassAwdyO |
| I was looking at 18" pro sound drivers in the partsexpress catalog and A few seemed to be of decent value. There was a B&C sub, Peavy's lowriders, and perhaps something from dayton. They all claimed something like 97+db one watt efficiency! I dont think that is entirely true... I just wonder how far off it is! |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | *Edit* Posts seemed to have appeared as I was typing mine... |
horns are deffinitly out of the question.
18 inch drivers aren't, but are they really necesary? If someone has a real good idea for 18's. it doesn't matter to me. i just thought that a 15 with more xmax is perfect since there is no need to go below 35hz |
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| BassAwdyO |
| quote: | | i just thought that a 15 with more xmax is perfect since there is no need to go below 35hz |
The 18" driver will not only get you more extension, but typically also higher sensitivity due to increased cone area. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| If you're cutting off at 45Hz, a very high efficiency, high power 12" will do the job. What about positioning? although you "Nixed" the horn loading idea, you can actually use the venue as the horn if you employ edge or corner placement - it'll help smooth things out a little too. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | I was looking at 18" pro sound drivers in the partsexpress catalog and A few seemed to be of decent value. There was a B&C sub, Peavy's lowriders, and perhaps something from dayton. They all claimed something like 97+db one watt efficiency! I dont think that is entirely true... I just wonder how far off it is! |
I wonder what we could come up with for the dayton 18's. i get wholesale pricing on those.
i doubt they're 97 across the board. but at some frequencies they would achieve higher then that.
the peavey low riders probably are garbage, but they're made by eminence so who knows.
B&C are way to expencive.
| quote: | | You have to have a close look at your competition in this arena to fully appreciate where you can capitalise; in most cases (and I would stress not all) so-so drivers are screwed into a predetermined enclosure by someone who is guessing at what they are doing. Little attention is given to materials and bracing, and many rather crude mistakes can be unwittingly made. With a little forethought and care, the same designes can be replicated to a far higher standard with staggaring results. |
I'll give you an idea at where the TOP of the industry in my area is at.
The guy i get all my low-down information on the pro sound market told me he was considering used dual 18 empty peavey cab's for 900+ a piece. he was planning on just buying RCF subs and putting them in the peavey cabinet. Another example is i went to a DJ/MUSIC store in a nearby town, and they tried to sell me a B&C 18 for 450 bucks. i dont know what the specs we're but i can assume the driver wouldn't equivelate to the dayton 18. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | If you're cutting off at 45Hz, a very high efficiency, high power 12" will do the job. What about positioning? although you "Nixed" the horn loading idea, you can actually use the venue as the horn if you employ edge or corner placement - it'll help smooth things out a little too. |
What about the dayon Reference 12HO. i've been playing with that, its a pretty sickening driver. Very inexpencive too. maybe 4 of theese with two parralell connections and one series to keep 4 ohms and gain 9 decibels of across the board sensitivty? |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
OK. In this arena, you check the spec's of your drivers for their response between ~40-100Hz; take that as the efficiency, not the quoted figure. Example: doubling drivers will improve efficiency by 3dB; If you get 2 150W 12" Drivers @ 95dB ea for $100, or 1 300W 18" Driver @ 97dB for $200, you're winning with the 12"ers.
Design the cab properly for the driver(s) selected; build & brace like a tank & you'll get a unit that murders the competition on price and performance. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
Give me an answer on the "in venue" siting: it's important in the overall design.
Cheers - Jezz |
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| jadenlinkletter |
Ok looks like we're on the something.
im heading out for the night. when i get back. i'll model up some boxes with 4 12 dayton HO's
am i right by sayin i am gaining 9 decibels by using 4 drivers instead of one?
i was lead to believe that one parralell connection will double the current, therefore doubling the sensitivity.
so 2 parralell connections = 12 db of gain.
minues 3 decibels because of a series connection.
i spoose that maybe you only get 3 decibels from doubling the current, and the other 3 comes from adding twice the cone area.making 6 db of gain
somene correct me if im fro |
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| jadenlinkletter |
My main customers will be traveling dj's . each venue will vary.
| quote: | | Give me an answer on the "in venue" siting: it's important in the overall design. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| I won't comment on the amp values (but you're probably on the right lines) as not all amps will do this; but everytime you double cone area you double SPL which means a 3dB increase. if your amp decides to increase power delivery on a lower impedance value, all the better - but beware of making the whole lot sound strained and wrecked by making the amps deliver what they can't (common night club faux pa!). |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| OK - got a really good idea that can work both ways - how much time have you got left? |
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| chops |
Hmm...
First off, you say you want a sub that will put "GOBS" of bass onto the dance floor, more than JBL, EV, etc, etc, but then you say the sub doesn't need to go any lower than about 45Hz. I have news for you, 45Hz is not GOBS of bass for night clubs.
I don't know what kind of night clubs you have up there in New Brunswick, but ALL of the night clubs here in Florida that I've been in have serious output to at least 20Hz. I know for a fact because I know all of the music they play very very well.
And secondly, using the room for "corner" loading would be highly impractical due to the fact that most clubs do NOT place their subs anywhere near walls or room boundaries. A lot of the clubs use groups of 2 or 4 bass bins on either side of the dance floor, or some even use a couple single and small bass bins out in the middle of the floor, which the girls use to dance on. (I always find myself standing next to those for some reason! huba, huba, huba... . )
Anyway, in order to make any of this happen, you're going to have to use drivers with large 3" or 4" voice coils that are capable of sustained high temperatures for 8 to 10 hours straight, and are capable of high SPL levels at frequencies well below your 45Hz.
The only thing I could see you doing (cost wise) is to try and match the performance of the big companies, but for a fraction of the cost.
That's just my 2 cents. ;) |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
Here's the general idea; multiple driver arrangement - rear bottom edge porting. Where the driver is set against a wall you get a small degree of horn accentuatin; where you don't, you get a standard rear ported (will sound "cleaner") bass reflex enclosure. Might pay dividends to slope the baffle backwards - if stacking isn't an issue, make it a "tobelerone". In the diagram, I've shown two stacked drivers; in reality you'd stick 'em side by side to give a wider horn. You can also lift the base at the front and slope the back away from the wall, although this might detract from the deepest bass: experiment!
What do you think? |
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| BassAwdyO |
| quote: | | I don't know what kind of night clubs you have up there in New Brunswick, but ALL of the night clubs here in Florida that I've been in have serious output to at least 20Hz. I know for a fact because I know all of the music they play very very well. |
What music do you know very well? Are we talking the latest ludacris nelly chris brown lil jon 50cent kanye west or whoever else clear channel chooses to overplay and has a not so overly girlish rap beat and lyrics. Cuz none of that stuff has anything much below 30hz.
Even the so called "multi-million dollar" clubs around here and in st louis lack much authority at 30hz compared to some parts of the spectrum. I will say most of the better clubs have systems that get that low, but I know they're down at least a few decibels.
However when you get a sub that can put out 120db @30hz and 144db@45hz one meter away, the 30hz output may be significantly attenuated, but it is still easily heard and felt. |
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| chops |
| quote: | Originally posted by BassAwdyO
What music do you know very well? Are we talking the latest ludacris nelly chris brown lil jon 50cent kanye west or whoever else clear channel chooses to overplay and has a not so overly girlish rap beat and lyrics. Cuz none of that stuff has anything much below 30hz.
Even the so called "multi-million dollar" clubs around here and in st louis lack much authority at 30hz compared to some parts of the spectrum. I will say most of the better clubs have systems that get that low, but I know they're down at least a few decibels.
However when you get a sub that can put out 120db @30hz and 144db@45hz one meter away, the 30hz output may be significantly attenuated, but it is still easily heard and felt. |
Well, if it helps any, I don't any of those freaks you mentioned. I am in NO WAY remotely interested in any rap or hip-hop garbage.
The clubs that I go to are in the hart of major cities such as Tampa, Orlando, Daytona, and sometimes even Gainsville, Jacksonville and on very rare occations, Tallahassee. Heck, we've even gone out of state to Atlanta, GA for several concerts at night clubs.
And for the music I listen to, it's usually "dark" industrial-goth music, and a LOT of it comes fresh straight from the bands with plenty of sub-30Hz and sub-20Hz bass in it these days. :devilr: |
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| jadenlinkletter |
CHOPS
the only music i've ever heard thats as low as 20 hz is bands that have likea 7 string bass. how many clubs have to been to that have this kind of instrument driving a dance floor?
all rap musics kick is ever usualy below 30HZ, its rare to be lower but i find it sometimes.
all the bass in night clubs is usually right at 40 hz sometimes even 50, in fact 40 hz is the loudest frequency. one octave above the threshold of hearing. Most people are blown away by a 40 hz test because they THINk* its low. its just that they've never heard anything so loud. people like you n me know the difference.
i only said the dj's around here use a 45 hz cut off. i want powerfull linearity to 35.
anyways, thanks for you 2 cents.
Linkletter. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
Jezz. its a good idea for a permanent install. but dj's are just to picky with easy of use issues. alot of dj's will sacrafice quality for light cabinets and other things that make it easier to work with. night clubs and churches tend to have alot more flexibility.
i've got a couple idea tho/
what if the sub was ported into a slot at the bottom of the box. with the back sealed off and the slow pointing at the croud.
Could any relevant output be gained by doing that?
i've been modeling subs all night. the dayton 18 is out of the question. it takes 4 of them to equivelate 2 kilomax 18's
4 dayton dvc 12's will stay right along side the 18's in 5 cubic feet less then the 18's.
I think the DVC's are the best bet. so heres my proposal.
4 dayton dvc 12's.
thats 8 coils at 8 ohms. 2 banks of 3 parralel connections (4 woofers) to get two banks at 2 ohms. then series to bring back to 4.
6 parallel connections =36 db of gain.
1 series = -3 db loss.
33 db gain in sensitivity.
and all pro sound amps will run at 4 ohms
i see NO other drivers on the market period that will do what these will in 10 cubic feet
Anehoic spl chart
HZ DB
20 104
25 115
30 123
35 128
40 130
45 130
50 130
10 cubic feet tuned to 34 hz with an f3 of 32.
i do believe that output above 140 is possible with the right placement.
ok, now lets get workin on some ways to design the box to improve output |
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| jadenlinkletter |
i need help deciding if the ports i've selected would be appropriate.
10 cubic feet tuned to 33 hz
i want to put (8) 4" wide 22" long ports which will allow the system to handle over 2 kw and never exceed 30 m/s air velocity.
8 4 inch ports to me sounds like it would open up some SERIOUS air movement and with hardly any port noise shoudl sound excellend.
More ideas are welcomed. i want to make every aspect of this box PERFECT before i even build itl |
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| simon5 |
You are a bit wrong on the sensivity thing.
You use 4 drivers rated at 90.4 dB sensivity at 2.83V.
90.4 dB with one driver.
You double the cone area so 93.4 dB with two drivers (+3 dB).
You double again so 96.4 dB with four drivers (+3 dB).
You had 4 ohms at the start. You end up with 4 ohms at the end. No sensivity changes.
So your group of drivers got a sensivity of 96.4 dB/1m/2.83V RMS.
You are also at 93.4 dB/1m/1W efficiency.
Sorry to break the fun a bit.
Nothing can beat a horn for stuff over 30-40 Hz.
Ported is not a bad idea, but look at Pro drivers, not those Dayton DVCs. |
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| Collo |
Hi Jaden
by my reckoning 30 m/sec is too high for 4in ports - you would need 50mm flares each end to keep 'em quiet. :bigeyes:
Peak flow for 8 ports is around 2000 litres / sec, which can be achieved with 4 * 6 inch ports running at around 28 m/sec. - They'll want 30mm flares each end, which you can still get.
This is based on extrapolating results of testing on smaller diameter ports. Others out there may have experience with six inch ports at these sorts of speeds.....:devilr:
regards
Collo |
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| chops |
| quote: | Originally posted by simon5
You are a bit wrong on the sensivity thing.
You use 4 drivers rated at 90.4 dB sensivity at 2.83V.
90.4 dB with one driver.
You double the cone area so 93.4 dB with two drivers (+3 dB).
You double again so 96.4 dB with four drivers (+3 dB).
You had 4 ohms at the start. You end up with 4 ohms at the end. No sensivity changes.
So your group of drivers got a sensivity of 96.4 dB/1m/2.83V RMS.
You are also at 93.4 dB/1m/1W efficiency.
Sorry to break the fun a bit.
Nothing can beat a horn for stuff over 30-40 Hz.
Ported is not a bad idea, but look at Pro drivers, not those Dayton DVCs. |
I was thinking the same exact thing, but a lot of people around here tend to think that I never know what I'm talking about, including night clubs with 20Hz bass capabilities.
But hey, what do I know. I've only been dealing with audio equipment for the past 20+ years of my life. :dead: |
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| BAM |
Hoffman's Iron Law: The three parameters are Size, Efficiency, and LF Extension. You can only control two, and the third are controlled by the other two.
For professional audio, the order of importance is always: Small Size, High Efficiency, LF Extension.
Have you considered a triple-15" design? Peavey has an interesting new long throw professional 15" called the LowMax or something like that. A good triple-15 design can be shoehorned into a box normally used for a dual-18" design. Three 8-ohm 15" woofers will give a 3.2 ohm load, and some very beefy amplifiers like Crown Macrotech will bridge into that safely. |
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| pinkmouse |
| For a portable system for DJs, then I personally see no need to go below 40Hz at the -6dB level. The punters won't know the difference, you'll need half the amp power, and the kit will be smaller, lighter and cheaper. Stick any DJ in front of two boxes, one flat down to 20Hz, and the other rolling off at 40Hz, with a bit of boost at the chest resonance frequency of 60-80Hz, and I'll put money on which they go for. |
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| chops |
| Well I'm refering more towards permanent installs in night clubs, mainly because I saw mention of it earlier in the thread, not just portable DJ rigs. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | You are a bit wrong on the sensivity thing. |
Heres my theory.
a single parrallel connection with cut your inductance by half, if this is true, that would mean it doubles your sensitivity.
by doing this there also must be doulbe the cone area. so another 3 db.
(4) 4 ohm drivers. 2 parralell connections and one series connection = 9 db of gain on top of the already 90 db sensitive drivers. so the drivers will now be almost 100 decibels sensitive at 2.83V |
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| Rademakers |
For every doubling of the drivers you'll get +3dB in sensitivity. So four drivers are 6 dB over one. Next to that you'll have another 6 dB more over one, by having 4 times the powerhandling.
| quote: | | They all claimed something like 97+db one watt efficiency! I dont think that is entirely true... I just wonder how far off it is! |
It doesn't have to be true but a good 18" pro woofer will offer around 97 dB/W/m.
If you're going for basreflex 15" or 18" would be the way to go, 12" basreflex just wouldn't give the desired SPL or sensitivity. An 18" aimed for 45 Hz and up in a relatively small enclosure (6,2 cubic ft) is the Beyma 18G50.
Still I would consider hornloaded like a tuba 24 or a Punisher. The Punisher is sligthly difficult to build but the high sensitivity (102 - 103 dB/W/m) combined with the 1500 W powerhandling gives a respectable SPL for 45 -50 Hz up to 100 Hz.
Btw don't forget about powercompression.
Wkr Johan |
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| simon5 |
Yes you could plug all of them in parallel.
90.4 dB in parallel with 90.4 you'll get 96.4 dB. (+3 dB parallel and +3 dB cone area doubling)
Now, you have two pairs of drivers at 96.4 dB.
96.4 dB in parallel with 96.4 you'll get 102.4 dB.
Yes, you're right, you get now 102.4 dB/1m/2.83V RMS.
Now, the problem is, you got a 1 ohm load.
A 4 ohms driver in parallel with another one will give 2 ohms.
Then the two pairs at 2 ohms each in parallel will give 1 ohm.
Very few power amplifiers can drive a 1 ohm load.
To counter this, you connect the two pairs at 2 ohms in series instead of parallel. You now got a 4 ohms load.
Parallel = +3 dB sensivity
Series = -3 dB sensivity
102.4 - 6 = 96.4 dB
Why -6 ? You lose the +3 dB because they are no longer in parallel and you gain -3 dB because they are in series now.
I'll do this part slower now to show what's happening.
Disconnect the two last pairs.
You get two pairs of drivers at 2 ohms.
They got 96.4 dB sensivity each.
Plug the pairs in parallel to get a 1 ohm load = 102.4 dB sensivity
Plug the pairs in series to get a 4 ohms load = 96.4 dB + 3 dB = 99.4 dB because cone area is doubled - 3 dB = 96.4 dB because they are in series now.
Result = 96.4 dB efficiency |
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| BassAwdyO |
Simon5,
you are very confusing....
If he's got 4 drivers and they're wired to be the same load as a single driver(series-parallel, or parallel-series) they will automatically be +6db of efficiency so long as the center to center distance of their cones is less than one half of the wavelength of the highest frequency being reproduced.
Since there are four drivers the power handling is increased by 4, or 6db in other words making the Maximum output 12db greater for 4 drivers as compared to a single. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
OK.
As my first experiement i've decided to use a 15 inch dayton dvc
i want to put it in 7 cubic foot box, heres what i came up with:
7 Cubic feet tuned to 33 hz with 3 4" ports never reaching more then 30 m/s with 600+watts. f3 of 30 hz
heres the anehoic spl:
HZ SPL
20 98
25 108
30 116
35 121
40 122
45 121
50 120
55 120
60 119
70 119
80 118
90 118
is this ok? anyone have any suggestions to get more output? i feel this is the most practical box for this sub for music, please give me your suggestions.
Anyone know anything about bandpass? i wouldn't mind seeing what kind of spl's could be achieved wiht bandpass. i no means to calculate that kind of box.
thanks
Linkletter |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=27
You can try this - :smash:
Once you've got your design, don't forget to think about sturdy bracing & construction; it's gonna take a serious battering throughout its working life. You'll have to come up with an almost indestructible unit that doesn't give the "roady's" a hernia every time it's moved.
Cheers - Jezz |
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| pinkmouse |
Jezz, any more blatant misuses of the apostrophe like that, and I might have to sinbin you...
;) |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| OK, "roadies". (sulk!):ashamed: |
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| imix500 |
| Yes, remember wheels are your friend. It can be biult like a tank, but it's gotta roll. For example look at the Meyer 650P. Glorious design and heavy as all get out. Btw calling too many Local One members "roadies" up here can earn you a lifetime membership in the East River. ;) |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Wheels? WHEELS? I think I'm going to go and have a cry:bawling: - OK; I'll cut you a deal - use the ones that tuck away & stick 'em (sorry AL!) on the back out of the way! I'm not suggesting spikes or anything but...:yuck: ;) |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| BTW, before you have me measured for concrete slippers, "Roadies" have mega cudos back in Blighty - all those groupies...:cheeky: (Iwish!) |
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| imix500 |
| Yeah groupies, totally dude, I was just messing with ya. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Say, IMIX; wouldn't it be fun to go el4lether on a project like this? just think aerolam, carbon fibre composites, active SS, SE Class A transformer ended amps. Cor! AUDIONASA!!! :cheers: |
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| imix500 |
| Yeah, very cool. But the weight savings of using cabon fibre and areolam (a most excellent structural material indeed) would be eaten up with the amps heatsinks! A switchable class ab/h amp module would be the way I'd go. |
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| Rademakers |
| quote: | As my first experiement i've decided to use a 15 inch dayton dvc, i want to put it in 7 cubic foot box, heres what i came up with:
7 Cubic feet tuned to 33 hz with 3 4" ports never reaching more then 30 m/s with 600+watts. f3 of 30 hz.
is this ok? anyone have any suggestions to get more output? |
If you're still looking for something that will swamp similair pro designs, than you're, imo on the wrong way.
Typical 18" pro woofers have a sensitivity that's 6-7 dB higher than the DVC. A good 18" will take around 1000 Watts (up to 1500 Watts if processed properly). So your sub would need over 4000-6000 Watt just to keep up!
Click
If 35 -40 Hz is as low as you need to go, I would suggest any of these over the use of the Dayton (just horses for courses). If you're interested, this list can be brought down to just 1 or 2 units.
Just my 2 (euro)cents.
Wkr Johan |
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| pinkmouse |
| Local 1? Glorified box pushers... :) |
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| imix500 |
| quote: | | Local 1? Glorified box pushers... |
Lol, yeah some of us deserve that one. There are honest hard working fellows among the brood though. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
| quote: | | Typical 18" pro woofers have a sensitivity that's 6-7 dB higher than the DVC. A good 18" will take around 1000 Watts (up to 1500 Watts if processed properly). So your sub would need over 4000-6000 Watt just to keep up! |
Either you've got it wrong or i do because my software tells me that in 9.5 cubic feet (tuned to 34hz) one 15 inch Dayton DVC is +/-1 DB from 50hz and down from an Eminence kilomax 18. for 1/3 the price.(thats maximum ouput by the way)
the kilomax 18 is +/- 2.5db from 100 hz to 30
the Dayton 15dvc is +/-4db from 100 hz to 30
they both have an f3 of 30 hz
the kilmax at 50hz can only handle 500 watts without reaching xmax
the dayton 15 at 45hz can handle 850 without reaching excursion.
i no longer see the point of pro sound drivers. except maybe the fact that you can get a litle more linearity up to 100 hz
Linkletter
(if you can correct me, be my guest) |
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| pinkmouse |
This is what I would call a pro driver, not that Eminence stuff. ;)
Though in a gigging rig, I'd still prefer the Eminences to the DVCs, they will be so much more robust. |
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| pinkmouse |
| This is the only way to go with the 2450s, and it would have to be the classic TSW-118, ( or other clone) for the 1850. Might only go down to 40Hz with a fast drop off after that, but the boxes are about 1m x 1m x 0.6m. |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| 136dB is pretty loud, Al! I know I'm straying off the point here, but given the minimal distortion on these units, wouldn't they be great for an isobaric dipole sub? they'd be great for matching with panels... |
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| Rademakers |
Try this one.
It's not the best out there by a long shot but it has typical (and good) T/S-parameters for PA basreflex use (unlike the 18" Kilomax). Keep the volume between 4 - 8 cubic feet and tuning between Fs - 50 Hz.
Wkr Johan |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Look at the FR graph at the bottom; it's actually really bad below 100Hz; at 100Hz you're below 94dB, by 45Hz you're down to 85dB. It ain't gonna rock anybodies world, methinks...:whazzat: |
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| Rademakers |
I only hope that your thinking doesn't prevent Jadenlinkletter from simulating this speaker, as that would be a shame and my main goal here.
This FR graph is telling you very little information you'll need to know for the speakers intended usage, if at all. Just simulate this speaker and compare it to this 4,0 pi (!) measurement.
Stop thinking, start knowing.
Wkr Johan |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| The only comment I'd make is that Jadenlinkletter needs a sub that is "kickass" from <45Hz-100Hz, in a marketplace populated with high output pro-drivers; convince me that this driver is going to hit 95dB @1W @45Hz in anything other than a horn (which we're not doing) & I'll be really interested to hear how. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
So i threw my 15 inch dvc into a 4 cubic foot sealed box for a q of .703
i was just listening to it whisper low because everyone is asleep, but i decided to give it one good crank, but the volume button on my keyboard stuck on and my 2600 watt rms pro sound amp's gain was all the way up. all i heard was a big pop now the sub sounds distorted and theres a rattle somewhere in the sub. i cna hear it really good when i put my ear up the hole in the back of the magnet structure.
fixable or not fixable?
and what could it be? fried voice coil?
thanks
Linkletter |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Use your loaf - gotta 'nother amp? that's the acid test; you've probably blown a fuse or something - pretty hard to wreck a voice coil (unless you really try!);) |
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| Jezz-the-Fezz |
| Don't like the sound of that rattle tho - did you used to break Tonka toys as a kid???:rolleyes: |
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| pinkmouse |
| quote: | Originally posted by jadenlinkletter
fixable or not fixable?
and what could it be? fried voice coil? |
Most likely you overheated the VC causing the VC former to deform, and it's now rubbing in the gap. You may also have torn or split the spider.
Needs a recone kit. |
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| Rademakers |
Convince you? Should I wipe your bottom too? Brush your teeth? Why don't you convince yourself?
It will get very close to that in a BR or even over, in a BP (unless powercompression is taken into account).
Wkr Johan |
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| pinkmouse |
Jezz, Johan, I think you're both arguing from the same side! ;) For PA, Horn loaded 18"s are the way to go!
Johan, that's a nice dealer you linked to a couple of pages ago. Interesting to see those DAS drivers. I've seen them before in boxes, but never been aware of a dealer for them.
JDL, if you haven't looked at that site yet, do so. If you click on the construction links it has some good box designs, including a few of Rog Mogales' ones. That should give you an idea of which way to go. |
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| jadenlinkletter |
I tried another amp. same noise, but waht puzzles me is it will still operate peak to peak wiht a 10 hz sine wave
So i must have warped the former then, i wonder if it will work itself out. sees to keep getting better.
if anyone knows of anything i could do about it please let me know |
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| imix500 |
| If you have overheated the vc, I'm afraid it won't work itself out. Only cure for that is a recone. |
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| simon5 |
| quote: | Originally posted by BassAwdyO
Simon5,
you are very confusing....
If he's got 4 drivers and they're wired to be the same load as a single driver(series-parallel, or parallel-series) they will automatically be +6db of efficiency so long as the center to center distance of their cones is less than one half of the wavelength of the highest frequency being reproduced.
Since there are four drivers the power handling is increased by 4, or 6db in other words making the Maximum output 12db greater for 4 drivers as compared to a single. |
You are right, but he was talking about sensivity, so loudness with 2.83V RMS imput at 1 meter distance. I was only saying that he will be at 96.4 dB sensivity no matter what he does.
So any pro driver with 96.4 dB sensivity or higher is better if it's cheaper than four DVC drivers.
A bunch of DVC drivers won't cut it. |
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| BassAwdyO |
| quote: | | So any pro driver with 96.4 dB sensivity or higher is better if it's cheaper than four DVC drivers. |
I know you're not just saying that about dvc drivers in general. We're talking about those particular dayton drivers right?
The assumtion that if a particular pro driver has better sensitivity then it will be better than four of the daytons is incorrect. I believe the threadstarter wanted that particular something that offered the highest output with an enclosure size limit and at the lowest price. While driver efficiency may be a good place to start, its not the only factor in this.
I agree fully, however, that a high efficiency driver is the ticket here. Sd will probably be high, Xmax will probably be low Vas will probably be high, but if Fs is reasonably low then the extension should be decent in a moderate enclosure. |
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