| edjosh23 |
I bought two of these Tang Band w6-1139SC from a local audio shop during the summer (had lots of money at the time) when I was getting some other things at the store. I wanted to get two of these to fool around with. That weekend I threw a box together. I'm new to woodwork so everything takes a long time, but I really just threw this together in about 1.5 hours. It is a 1ft^3 bass reflex cube tuned to 35hz.
A friend of mine gave me a pro audio speaker with a built in 250w amp last week. Tonight I was able to tear apart the pro audio speaker and hook the amplifier up to my w6s. The play low frequencies, but there is no SPL. I was planning on building a really nice sub when I got the funds, but since there is no more summer there is no more work, only school.
I wanted to know what you all would suggest to get the maximum SPL out of these two w6-1139s.
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| simon5 |
| Check your enclosure for air leaks. That size with that much power tuned to 35 Hz should give enough SPL, about 105-110 dB. |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
After I built the enclosure I knew it had air leaks because it was so poorly built, so I went back and put silicone in every joint. There is a small airleak where I missed putting a screw into the vent so I think right below the vent is a small hole where a screw went through, but otherwise that should be the only hole. Because the joints aren't super tight the box vibrates quite a bit.
I used to be big into car audio and obviously these can't compare to my single eD 13kv.2 with 400w, but these don't seem to have even half of the output or anywhere near it. So I can't compare these to much except for car audio that I have built.
Will things like a larger port area give me more spl?
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| simon5 |
Larger port area will give you less port noise at high SPL, not higher SPL. Did you check the tuning to be sure it's 35 Hz?
Did you close the small screw hole? That could rob you some SPL for sure.
What kind of wood thickness did you use? Vibrations kill the SPL, since you're from car audio I think you know that hehe! Put a bunch of heavy books on the sub and use wood clamps to hold the box together, check if SPL climbs.
You're comparing two 6 inches to a 13 inches with twice the power. In theory it would take 5 drivers of 6 inches to equal the output of your 13 inches, so you lose about 5 dB here. Also your old 13 inches had more excursion so better low end and also had a twice as powerful amplifier so another 3 dB you lose there, so 8 dB lost in total.
8 dB is near 10 dB which is in fact usually considered as twice as loud for our ears, go wonder hehe! |
|
|
| simon5 |
| You could get way higher SPL, with a horn, but you said your woodworking skills are poor. A project like this would improve them for sure on the other hand. |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
I built the box from scrap .5" mdf.
The eD13kv.2 is actually a 12" Here is the link
I'm not poor at woodwork, I'm just new to it and 17 years old. This project was poor woodwork, because I didn't want to spend any money on a box and I just wanted to listen to them.
I start many projects by just adding cheap speakers to my bill. For example I bought some pioneer B20s when I was buying some crossover parts and a tweeter for my wr125. I found myself a week later building boxes for them out of scrap wood, and now I've built some pretty nice boxes out of them (check the web link).
I'm not afraid of building a horn because of woodwork by any means, but I'm afraid of the mouth area. I was also considering an MLTL, but the line would be gigantic and I'm not sure I want to give that much room to these 6.5" speakers.
Right now I have some bookes on the subwoofer because my room is too cluttered.
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
You might want to look into a TL. Right now I'm listening to a Tang Band W5-1138SG (the 5" little brother to your driver) in a tapered TL, tuned to 35 Hz. When placed in a dorm room (where I am right now), it reaches down into the 20's. Box size is 11.25" wide, 12.25" tall, and 18" deep. Amazing little sub. Great sound, and I still haven't bottomed it out. I started on the project about 3/'4 a year ago (when I was 17 as well), and it took me about 1/2 a year while in school to design and build. Worth every minute.
Reece |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
Wow, very small. How long is the line? Can you tell me more?
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
Sure thing!
The speaker uses a single TB 5" driver (the one I mentioned previously), forward firing. The design has 3 folds, each spanning the full depth of the enclosure, ending in a front-firing terminus next to the driver. The closed (driver) side of the TL measures 5 x 7 inches, while the terminus measures 5 x 2 inches. The first quarter of the enclosure is stuffed with acousta-stuff, at a density of 1 lb per cubic foot. I don't have a picture (working on that - soon), but I believe I have a few CAD drawings laying around. The walls are all 3/4" MDF
Quarter-wave resonance is 35 Hz. 1 watt will get you to about 85 dB (there is a slight boost over the base sensitivity). Obviously, this is not a HT "subwoofer". This speaker was designed to sound as good as possible for music on a limited budget (about $40 spent on this thing) and in relatively small space (to help you get into my head in terms of the SQ I wanted, ported was out of the question). In smaller rooms, it's amazing. In larger rooms, I think it might be lacking. My current room is approx 15x15x8, and it has taken things off the wall (and opened cabinets in the next room over).
For reference, I measured about 110 dB from this speaker in a smaller dorm room at 1 M at 30 Hz, with over 100 dB into the 20's, corner loaded. So, it goes loud enough for anything I need. The sound is very tight, and slightly harsh. The previous subwoofer this replaced was a bass reflex design, which was not as tight, and had a lot more of a mellow sound to it. So, it depends on what you want.
All in all, I love it. If you want some drawings or more plans, let me know!
Reece
Edit: All that, and I still didn't answer your question! The line is about 69 inches long. |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
One other thing I might add for your current subwoofer is to give it some break-in time. Both the current subwoofer I built, and the previous one I bought, when new had very poor SPL capabilities. However, with break-in, both became much sweeter.
Reece |
|
|
| mista2 |
rjon17469 --
Just saw this thread and I must say, congrats on a terrific small subwoofer! I have two of the TB w6-1139SC woofers, like edjosh23. I'd love to see some drawings of your TL....for inspiration if nothing else. I'll be using these in a similar application -- building a system for my dorm, moving in in about 2months for spring semester. Sounds about perfect for my needs!
Thanks.... |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
Absolutely! I'll pull those drawings back up, or if I can't find them, I'll recreate them. Also, I'll work on getting a camera to get a few pictures up.
If you're interested in transmission lines and haven't already spent some time there, I highly recommend visiting Martin J. King's website, www.quarter-wave.com. Lots of very helpful information, including the modeling software for TL's!
I must say though that I modeled the W6-1139SC a few times in the software, and obtained some good results. Two however would produce a very large speaker. If you have the space, I'd recommend it though!
When I built my sub, I actually designed it to fit right in the narrow, deep space I had between my desk and the wall of my room, in the corner. Something to consider when planning. ;)
Drawings soon.
Reece |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
By the way Mista, where are you attending, if I may ask?
Reece |
|
|
| Cal Weldon |
| I found those woofers do quite nicely with a drone cone and plate amp to augment the low SPL. Two cabinets in one with the front firing taking over at 100Hz. Here is the back. |
|
|
| mista2 |
Attending Texas A&M in College Station, but plans within the family have constrained against my attending the spring semester. Next fall I'll be in though, hoping for a major or above in electrical engineering (what else? :D ) ...dunno if I will have enough room, but I was thinking about building two seperate but identical cabinets and bringing one, and if I have space bringing the second later on.
Plenty of time has been spent at MJK's site, have actually modeled a TL of sorts with the NSB -- just for fun, but I'm getting decent response to (using the "golden ear (TM)" method ;) ) about 80ish Hz, enough to integrate well with a small 8" subwoofer. However, a TL sub is very interesting to me, as I absolutely love the smoothness of the bass with the NSB TL, it just doesn't go deep...at all.
Can't wait for drawings or pics! Thanks a ton!
Re: Cal Weldon...
I've seen your design posted more than once on here, and heard favorable comments....if i may ask, since I cannot find the Pioneer drone cone (I believe that's the one you used) at PE anymore, what would a suitable replacement be? And also, if it hasnt been mentioned, what wattage plate amp? PE 70w?
Thanks,
mista2 |
|
|
| mista2 |
...but a little more information might be helpful. I also have a pair of these woofers in my car, a 1991 Toyota MR2 turbo, in sealed boxes of ~.5 cu. ft. Replaced an all Rockford Fosgate system when I finally decided to get out of the "Boom-Boom" car audio scene and into some semblance of a balanced system. Very small space, but they do sound excellent, and I've never been able to bottom them out....Just thought it might be helpful to know that I have some experience with this woofer! They're receiving around 60wRMS each, and are more than loud enough for my tastes. :nod:
Can't wait to hear back...Thanks again!
mista2 |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
Cal,
Can you give me a little bit more info about the drones? I've discussed these woofers with you in other threads, but only now can I really comment on them that I have sufficient power for them. The sound quality is great and bass is tight, but I just want more SPL from them, hopefully without losing much sound quality.
mista2,
First off, I love MR2s. I've worked as a mechanic for two years and am applying to NC State to gen my electrical engineering degree. I'm hoping to get in.
Today I did some more listening. The woofers have gotten better, but still don't have what I'm looking for. I've been contemplating different designs including TLs and even designs a 90" line that fits nicely into the space I'm not sure if that is the route I want to take. That TL would not have as much bracing as another bass reflex design that I came up with. I also designed a neat figure 8 design for the front and down firing port, but I'm not totally sure if this is the design I'm going to build.
This is going to double a a bedside table. The amplifier that my friend gave me is for the 2way PA speakers so it doesn't have gain or auto-turn off or anything like that, so I'm going to build it so that from my bed (where I watch my movies from) I can turn on and off the subwoofer.
I'm still very open to other designs, so please input ideas.
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| john van ommen |
woofers are always much much louder in car. The cabin gain from being in a closed space gives you a HUGE boost at low frequencies.
If I were using your woofers, and wanted to go louder, I would just use twice as many of them. If you double the power and double the number of boxes, it will go six DB louder.
That TB won't take much more power than what you are throwing at it. And it is a lousy candidate for a horn. It *is* a decent candidate for a bandpass. That would buy you three DB or so. But not as easy as just buying more. They're only $40, right? |
|
|
| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by john van ommen
And it is a lousy candidate for a horn. It *is* a decent candidate for a bandpass. |
Greets!
A horn is a bandpass with a big vent, so why is it 'lousy' for one and 'decent' for the other?
GM |
|
|
| mista2 |
edjosh23,
I love this car too! :D :D :D Tons of fun, gets looks everywhere, and at the local supermarket, I've been asked if its a Ferrari! And good luck for your application!
john van ommen,
Agreed, cabin gain, especially in such a small car, makes a huge difference, but seeing as I'd be gaining output by going TL over sealed (right? same as vented over sealed...i think), and that I'm not needing wall-shaking output down to 10hz (but decently loud output down to mid or high 20s in room would be nice...decently loud being mid 90's @ listening position....in a dorm, so around what, 4-5ft away) because it'll be in a dorm room, and that it'll be space constrained, it should be good enough...and you see the limitations. I'd take my open baffle system if space wasn't an issue. :smash: And spending $80 more on woofers isn't a good option right now...have other things to worry about (like paying for college) :smash: :smash: :smash:
GM,
So are you saying that these are a good candidate for a horn with a fairly low cut-off frequency? I know basically nothing about horns other than they're huge (but can be folded into a manageable size?) and they have a very distinct sound....I find this intriguing! Any more information would be great!
Thanks all!
mista2 (@edjosh23...think MR2 = mister 2 = mista2! :D ) |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
mista2,
....... ohhhh.
john van ommen,
I understand cabin gain, and I'm not expecting these to get any where near as loud. My car is a Lexus sc300, quite small and that subwoofer can really move.
I've modeled Bandpass enclosures, thir responce plots look awful to me, they are not smooth at all. They have giant peaks. Also WinISD automatically calculated optimum enclosures, for a 6th order bandpass there was no optimum, they were all awful.
GM,
When are you going to come listen to the FE127s?
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| GM |
Greets!
I pinched my left side sciatic nerve shortly after leaving the voice message and with no medical insurance and too young for state care, it's a struggle just to perform the mimimum basics of anything that requires being upright, so I'm literally not 'up' to doing any more driving/walking than absolutely necessary.
Sorry, I should have called to cancel, but intense pain has a way of refocussing/narrowing your priorities to a pinpoint and I just flat forgot about it. Hopefully I'll have the opportunity at some later date.
GM |
|
|
| john van ommen |
Yes, I agree that dual reflex bandpass boxes can sound bad very easily. I don't believe that is due to their frequency response; I believe that's due to their poor group delay. Psychoacoustically we are more sensitive to timing problems than we are to frequency response glitches.
OTOH, it's quite easy to make a single reflex bandpass thats response is ruler flat.
John |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
john van ommen,
I have also modeled 4th order bandpass. Below is the optimum enclosure of 4th order bandpass, but still doesn't give me any more SPL than the bass reflex box and gives less low end.
GM,
Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon. I was thought it would be nice for you to hear them. When you feel well enough to venture out for listening please call me, I'd be more than happy to make time for you to listen.
I was also wondering, my port (slot port) is going to run paralel the the bottom of the enclosure and it will drop out of the bottom to become downfiring (make a 90degree turn). I was wondering If I make the bottom piece of the enclosure rounded slightly so that the inside of the port is rounded (not the outside) will that effect my tuning frequency?
Thanks,
Josh
edit: And the picture, by the way green is bass reflex
 |
|
|
| john van ommen |
That's true, the ported box you modeled there will have more low bass in a anechoic chamber. But you're putting this in a CAR aren't you? I've personally built dozens of bandpass boxes for cars, as well as sealed, ported, and even horns. I'm running a horn sub in my Accord right now.
See, in the car, everything changes. Because of cabin gain, that box is going to have a HUGE bump at 40hz.
That's the trick all the pros use to get big SPLs in a car. If you aim for response that falls off slowly, it complements the cabin gain, and you end up with HUGE spl.
Try modeling that bandpass with a sealed chamber that has a higher Qtc (smaller box), and is tuned higher. You might consider using a passive radiator, as your port could end up taking up more space than the box!
John |
|
|
| Cal Weldon |
| quote: | Originally posted by mista2
Re: Cal Weldon...
I've seen your design posted more than once on here, |
Oops, I guess there's a little proud father in me.
| quote: | | I cannot find the Pioneer drone cone [/B] |
Q Components http://www.q-components.com/
Page 34 of the catalogue
| quote: | | [i]what wattage plate amp? PE 70w? [/B] |
That's the one.
| quote: | [i]Originally posted by edjosh23
Cal,
Can you give me a little bit more info about the drones? |
See above. Pioneer 8" flat with added PVA glue mass
| quote: | | [i]I just want more SPL from them.[/B] |
I wonder how they'd do in a Cornu spiralhorn?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/cornu/cornu.html |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
I threw together some CAD drawings of my sub, with the top, front, and left side panels removed to see the internal framework. On the bottom of the front side, you'll see two openings - a wide one on the left, and a narrow on the right. In that left opening is where the driver is mounted, and the right opening is the actual port. (I hope that made sense....) ;)
Behind the driver up to the first bend is the stuffed section.
If anyone is interested and wants more info (dims, etc), let me know!
Reece |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
| Another CAD drawing. |
|
|
| rjon17469 |
| Just to help distinguish the angled panels. |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
Yesterday I got a quite a bit of work done. I must say, this new box is rediculously loud! After setting up the subwoofer I put on a bass test song, ten seconds after starting the sub my mom comes running into my room "Turn that down! Things are going to fall off the wall, that is way too loud." They still have great sound quality just with a lot more output. Thanks for you all's help. By the way, anny suggestions for a table top for this? I can't decide what type of wood I want.
pictures below.
Thanks,
Josh
 |
|
|
| diydave |
rjon17469:
That sounds like a great project. I'd love to see some pictures. |
|
|
| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by mista2
GM,
So are you saying that these are a good candidate for a horn with a fairly low cut-off frequency? I know basically nothing about horns other than they're huge (but can be folded into a manageable size?) and they have a very distinct sound....I find this intriguing! Any more information would be great! |
Greets!
Yeah, JVO kinda/sorta 'opened mouth before engaging brain' and I assume his lack of responding to my Q is his tacit agreement. He is correct though that it's a poor candidate for a compression loaded horn, though I wonder if he knows the real reason Vs the usual 'Pavlov's response' of it doesn't have a high BL motor.
Anyway, wide BW BLHs are glorified BRs, so if it can be tuned low in a BR without rolling off too much it will work fine in a BLH. Indeed, down low, higher Qts drivers are desirable since we don't want/need gain much beyond 100 Hz.
Right, due to the BW, they're huge if not folded into a corner. An ideal one OTOH is so stupid huge that it takes the displacement of a basement or attic since its Fc is down in the single digits, so you design an ideal horn and then 'slice' a portion of it out that best meets the performance parameters of the app. This is how the early designers did it, but T/S and especially computer software got designers thinking they could improve on it, though I've yet to reverse engineer a current compromised design that does as well IMO. "Physics, it's the law." ;)
GM |
|
|
| GM |
| quote: | GM,
Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon. I was thought it would be nice for you to hear them. When you feel well enough to venture out for listening please call me, I'd be more than happy to make time for you to listen.
I was also wondering, my port (slot port) is going to run paralel the the bottom of the enclosure and it will drop out of the bottom to become downfiring (make a 90degree turn). I was wondering If I make the bottom piece of the enclosure rounded slightly so that the inside of the port is rounded (not the outside) will that effect my tuning frequency?
Thanks,
Josh |
Greets!
Thanks for the thought and hopefully I'll be able to call soon!
Not really, it takes a large radius to make an audible difference if it's already a low vent mach design.
GM |
|
|
| john van ommen |
Ok, GM, according to you, I've "opened my mouth before engaging my brain." Would you care to elaborate on that? Specifically, what makes you think that this TB woofer would work well in a BLH?
Have you modeled it in hornresp or Mathcad?
John |
|
|
| BAM |
| Parts Express now has the 5" TB woofer, and all the other drivers that Nuera used to have plus a couple extras |
|
|
| mateo88 |
| Nice looking box, Josh! Glad it sounds good! Sorry I have no suggestions for a table top, but I think it looks very nice as it is. |
|
|
| edjosh23 |
Thanks,
Unfortunately I've had too much school and I'm going out of town on friday so I haven't been able to sand or search for wood yet. After listening to this for a while now, I must admit, this has more bass than my ed13kv.2. I've got a slight air leak around the driver frame, I'll have to fix that, but otherwise these are great.
I've yet to watch a movie on them too, which I've really been waiting for.
Thanks,
Josh |
|
|
| GM |
| quote: | Originally posted by john van ommen
Ok, GM, according to you, I've "opened my mouth before engaging my brain." Would you care to elaborate on that? Specifically, what makes you think that this TB woofer would work well in a BLH?
Have you modeled it in hornresp or Mathcad?
John |
Greets!
Sorry for the tardy response.
I already 'elaborated' in my previous responses. ;)
No, but I don't really need to since once you understand the basics, it's as easy to calc as a T/S max flat alignment using Leach's math. For example, since this would be for 'sub' duty we're only concerned with max gain, so here's a 40 Hz Fc BLH 2pi space expo design for you to sim and get back to us with your thoughts:
Vf = 18.767"^2
L = 133.353"
St = 4.078"^2
Sm = 571.57"^2
Of course we can go lower, all the way down to <11 Hz, but size rapidly escalates to the ridiculous:
L = 1052.16"
Sm = 66612.84"^2
With the 'tail wagging the dog' this hard, don't have a clue just how low/loud it would actually play, but it sure would be cool looking, seeing a dinky little driver pumping out room shaking vibes with no obvious cone movement from a large room wall size mouth, though probably not for any extended subsonic notes due to motor heating. ;)
GM |
|
|
|
