| Nomination for Stupidest Lamest Audio Product, SLAP (TM) - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| macboy |
I nominate Creative to receive a SLAP(TM), the award for designing and marketting the Stupidest Lamest Audio Product.
Creative's "Home Theater Connect" is a product which lets you connect the 5.1 channel analog outputs of your computer's soundcard, to the digital input of your surround receiver. The box digitises the 6 channels, encodes them into DTS, and sends this to your receiver for decoding. With this box you can:- Get an extra A/D -> D/A conversion
- Get an extra lossy compression cycle
- Do nothing you couldn't do with an analog connection to the receiver
- Use even more cables than before
- Avoid using the crappy DACs in your soundcard and analog connectio... wait, no, you still need all that.
- Spend extra money
Some favourite marketting-speak quoted from the website:
"Without DTS-610 connecting your PC to your home theater involves ... the chore of figuring out how to connect the multitude of cables to the back of your receiver."
Um, no comment. That's just too stupid.
"Play... DRM-protected content, such as ... DVD-Audio disks."
Excellent. I can use this prouct to re-digitise (at an inferior sampling rate) the DVD-A signal coming from my crappy soundcard DACs and send this noisy distorted mess to my receiver instead. I could have used the analog connections from my souncard to my receiver, or even the digital connection, and played the DVD-video portion of the disc, but this is so much better.
Any other nominations for companies deserving a SLAP(TM) for designing audio products for a non-extistant market, or otherwise being horribly stupid? |
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| Cal Weldon |
Excellent example.
I'd like to nominate some of the people who buy $1000 plus audio cable. If ever there was a need for a slap...
Wait a minute. it's not the product's fault. It doesn't deserve the slap.
Cal |
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| macboy |
| quote: | I'd like to nominate some of the people who buy $1000 plus audio cable. If ever there was a need for a slap...
Wait a minute. it's not the product's fault. It doesn't deserve the slap. |
In my opinion, all makers of "directional" cables deserve to receive a SLAPTM. |
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| derf |
Shakti Stones, C37.....
But as Cal said, it's the people who buy these products that need a slappin', not the product itself. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by macboy
Any other nominations for companies deserving a SLAP(TM) for designing audio products for a non-extistant market, or otherwise being horribly stupid? |
I nominate all companies who make speakers that cannot provide a reasonable reproduction in acostically small rooms, that is all making conventional HiFi Speakers that do not have a reasonably well controlled and even directivity from the lowest range all the way up. That is an awfull lot of companies BTW.
Sayonara |
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| Enzo |
| I apologize in advance, but after the Tice Clock, everything else seems tame. |
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| derf |
What's a Tice clock, link us up....
| quote: | | I nominate all companies who make speakers that cannot provide a reasonable reproduction in acostically small rooms, that is all making conventional HiFi Speakers that do not have a reasonably well controlled and even directivity from the lowest range all the way up. That is an awfull lot of companies BTW. |
Hey, no fair, that's like all speaker companies, isn't it? |
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| DigitalJunkie |
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
What's a Tice clock, link us up....
Hey, no fair, that's like all speaker companies, isn't it? |
And I thought bass was non-directional? :confused:
I dunno..I think my speakers sound darn good,Like a concert in my small bedroom.
But they weren't made by a company,just my Dad. :D |
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| derf |
Well, if you use some kind of dipole design, the output coming from the front of the driver meets the output coming from the rear at the edges of the baffle, and they cancel each other out to an extent.
How high they start canceling each other out depends on the size of the baffle. |
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| derf |
KYW
1.How many people have got the space for a directional system from the lowest note up?
2.Even if the space is there, how many would be willing to give it up to such speakers?
3.What company is going to pursue making such a design available to the public when..
A.The vast, vast majority of people(so called audiophiles included), wouldn't be willing to let it into their living space
B.Many people wouldn't fully appreciate the quality of the design anyway, given the fact that small, aesthetic speakers have ruled the market for god only knows how long anyway
Such designs certainly have merit, but not to anyone wishing to earn any kind of money from them, that's why they are probably best left in the hands of DIY'ers willing to pursue building them. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
1.How many people have got the space for a directional system from the lowest note up? |
Everyone who has space for a reasonable floorstandaner?
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
2.Even if the space is there, how many would be willing to give it up to such speakers? |
Probably a lot of them, if they only knew....
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
3.What company is going to pursue making such a design available to the public when..
A.The vast, vast majority of people(so called audiophiles included), wouldn't be willing to let it into their living space
B.Many people wouldn't fully appreciate the quality of the design anyway, given the fact that small, aesthetic speakers have ruled the market for god only knows how long anyway |
Hmmm, the fact that in the current market a sensibly designed speaker (that is one using dipole or delayline type cardiode low frequency sections and suitably directional midrange and treble units) is not much present does not make the more common designs any more sensible or more capable of providing "High Fidelity".
So, summa sumarum, I retain that the SLAP to practically all speaker manufacturers is well deserved.
Excluded are explicitly:
Musik Elektronik Geithain
Audio Artistry
Linkwitz Labs
Wvier
Gradient
Hartley (during a certain period)
others I am unaware of but who build suitable speakers
(modesty obliges me to include 3D Sonics even though that is self-praise)
Sayonara |
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| derf |
| quote: | | Everyone who has space for a reasonable floorstandaner? |
But can a reasonable floorstander provide "life like" levels and unrestrained dynamics?
Unless you're placing directivity before dynamics, I'd say with a h/w/whatever frame, the design would end up being a fair bit bigger than your average floorstander, providing you want low distortion, life like levels and dynamics aswell.
| quote: | | Hmmm, the fact that in the current market a sensibly designed speaker (that is one using dipole or delayline type cardiode low frequency sections and suitably directional midrange and treble units) is not much present does not make the more common designs any more sensible or more capable of providing "High Fidelity". |
That's not really what I meant...
What I meant was that kind of speaker might be such a culture shock to some people that they'd dismiss it as bland/boring/whatever in comparison to more common designs, when all it was really doing was more accurately reproducing the information on the disc.
| quote: | Excluded are explicitly:
Musik Elektronik Geithain
Audio Artistry
Linkwitz Labs
Wvier
Gradient
Hartley (during a certain period)
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I've only ever seen/heard of the designs by Audio Artistry/Linkwitz and Hartley, excluding the idea that I could just be ignorant to the others, what are the others doing today?
Were their designs succesful when they came out? |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by DigitalJunkie
And I thought bass was non-directional? :confused: |
Soundwaves become directional when the radiating surface is large, compared to the wavelength, thus a very large mouth horn will be directional.
The other option to make a speaker that is quite directional at low frequencies is one that use "acoustic steering" by using controlled application of antiphase sound radiation to get the kind of radiation pattern you want.
The most basic option for "sound steering" are dipoles and dipoles using an acoustic delay line (like MEG does: http://www.me-geithain.de/presse/ppeng/presseppeng.html)
A more interresting variant would be a system that is active, using a pair of drivers and a delay-line which would allow you to dial in any LF radiation pattern you would like.
Something that goes some way, but is (IMHO) still too compromised is the CRAW system from John K:
http://www.musicanddesign.com/craw.html
The same principle can of course be applied even to small standmounting speakers. For arguments sake, use a standard Midwoofer, possibly even passive with a suitable tweeter and X-Over and place an active woofer on the back which is driven via a delay line and amp to gain pattern control.
Another option that is more ameanable to DIY Implementations is to combine a dipole (small equalised open baffle) and a monopole (sealed box) and use variable levels to the two sections. That way you can tune from a pure dipole (all power to the dipole) to monopole (all power to the monopole) with cardiode (equal power to dipole and monopole) and hypercardiode (more power to dipole than to monopole) and a lot inbetween.
Also, as pointed out on the Linkwitz Labs website, below the modal range of the room it becomes in effect a pressure chamber so directionality becomes irelevant, so at very low frequencies a monopole is fine. For a DIY "variable radiation pattern woofer" (VRPW) LF section this would mean to equalise the dipole flat only down to around 40Hz and use the monopole to fill in below, REGARDLESS of how much signal it gets above that, which limits the degree of EQ applied to the Dipole woofer.
Such a VRPW could be made in a 12" X 12" X 24" package with a suitable external controller and high power 2-channel amplifier.
Placing a suitable MF/HF section on top of that gets just the right hight, using a suitable semi-open back (delay-line) enclosure to get the right degree of pattern control at lower frequencies (higher up the drivers beaming or the use of a waveguide will controll directivity just fine).
Et voila, we have a speaker that is directional in the midrange and treble and which CAN be adjusted in terms of pattern to fit anything.
So really, in this day and age there is no excuse for not controlling directivity all the way down to a speakers cutoff or to the limit of the modal range, whichever comes first and SIZE is NOT the problem.
Sayonara |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
But can a reasonable floorstander provide "life like" levels and unrestrained dynamics? |
Based on comments by aquaintances who traded in their Altec VOT's for Linkwitz Orions, YES.
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
Unless you're placing directivity before dynamics, I'd say with a h/w/whatever frame, the design would end up being a fair bit bigger than your average floorstander, providing you want low distortion, life like levels and dynamics aswell. |
Well, FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE, what if I use a total 9pcs of the Racetrack Tang Band Subwoofer drivers on a U-Frame of 12" X 12" X 24" and drive each with all the power they can handle I will have a LOT of dynamic range even after equalisation in the same package as a "Puppy". So, low distortion and life like dynamics are NOT REALLY a problem in a dipole or unipole.
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
What I meant was that kind of speaker might be such a culture shock to some people that they'd dismiss it as bland/boring/whatever in comparison to more common designs, when all it was really doing was more accurately reproducing the information on the disc. |
That is entierly possible, as I am finding out at the moment. But just because a Stupid Lame Design (SLD) sells well it does not become any less Stupid and Lame.... ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
I've only ever seen/heard of the designs by Audio Artistry/Linkwitz and Hartley, excluding the idea that I could just be ignorant to the others, what are the others doing today?
Were their designs succesful when they came out? |
Well, lets start with some references to Gradient:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/...revolution.html
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/616/
http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradients.html
http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient%...oudspeaker.html
Now MEG have used a cardiode midrange on their speakers since the mid 1980's when their designs where choosen as standard main monitors for the East German Radio & TV Network and for the Recording studios. Since they introduced their LF Cardiode technology their Speakers have started to make serious impact outside Germany and outside the Radio/TV Studio area. I had the chance to listen to the current RL-901K recently and it is superb, with no aparent limitations. Expect to hear more as they gear up on the export market. I for one could live happily with a pair of the RL-901K
If you heared Audio Artistry you heard in effect a Siegfried Linkwitz design and his Orion DIY design seems to go well among serious enthusiasts.
Finally, Wvier are German and are doing well there.
3D Sonics needs a lot more promotion, then we will know about that one.
Sayonara |
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| derf |
Wow, that's pretty cool stuff, have you tried to implement such a design yourself?
Maybe we could split this off into another thread, as things like controlling directivity really interest me and I'd like to dig into the subject further.
On another note, in a different thread
We were discussing the drivers used for bass reproduction in dipole designs, it basically boiled down to this in the end...
"From what I can remember the 12" drivers Linkwitz uses cost around about the same price as entry level Eminence 18" woofers, what'd be really nice to see is tests comparing the smaller Linkwitz drivers and the larger Eminence ones."
Distortion tests, to see whether a long throw 12" has more/less distortion than a standard excursion pro 18" driver, given that an 18" will have around twice the cone surface area.
It'd be nice to hear your and others views, hopefully even see some real test data. Please reply in the original thread though, rather than drag this one off topic. |
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| Kuei Yang Wang |
Konnichiwa,
| quote: | Originally posted by derf
Wow, that's pretty cool stuff, have you tried to implement such a design yourself? |
Of sorts, the 3D Sonics Transparence Speaker (which i also use at home) is a dipole, in room down to around 50Hz. It is intended to be used with a monopole sub parked nearby.
The result if set up right is a more or less cardiode response in the 50Hz region and progressively monopole below and progressively hypercardiode to dipole above untill the Transparence naturally transtitions to monopole radiation above around 500Hz.
It is arguably a very compromised design, but not at all that bad. I use a single dual 12" monopole sub at the moment, my own design of sub is still waiting for all sorts of metal work, need to chase the shop...
I have also helped friends to implement large size dipole (sub)woofers as well, you will not believe how much output two pairs of Pro-Audio 18" in W baffles produce, even at very low frequencies. Tympanies on a system like that in a large room are a revelation! I'm still trying to get them in my system as well, nearly there.
I am working currently on ideas & plans for a domestically acceptable "speakerstand" type VRPW, you might find it a DIY kit in a year or so, gotta see.... Also on the drawing board a VRPS, work out what it stands for....;)
Sayonara |
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| philipbarrett |
| quote: | | I've.. seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off shore of Orion. I watched C-beams glittering in the darkness at Tannhaeuser Gate. All those.. moments will be lost in time..like.. tears.. in rain. Time to die. |
I know you, you Nexus 6. I make your eyes!
PB |
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