| gigatron |
Hey guys, I don't know if this is the right forum section but I guess its Digital enough :) hmm where do I start. I am a new member and son of trigon :) I'm a newb when it comes to electronics (designing, soldering, and that sphera of electronics) but when it comes to comptuers I just love to snuggle with my compute box!
I've given it thaught for quite some time and I've followed similar aproaches to these kinda projects on the internet regarding the creation of a "CD/DVD/VCD/Divx/Mp3/You name it/ player. It would require a specific computer stuffed into a dvd like case. NOW... who is interested in this project thats what i ask first?
SURE there are Divx players for consoles (PS2, XBOX, even the somewhat outdated dreamcast that I so love)... but they are not exactly meant as DVD players and well its just not fun without 'making it yourself'.
I've been considering what kind of hardware would be required, custom operating system and even custom BIOS. Recently my interest in the project was reawakend when I came across LinuxBIOS which is meant for instant booting of linux. In other words you press the power button and the linux kernel is stored in the BIOS and BOOM linux starts. What we could do here is create a computer in a DVD like case with specific capabilities, remote controller, etc... The hardware what sort of sound card, video card or something custom to use. I don't know where to start when I want to talk about this. I want some other people on this and since you guys are really doing some amazing stuff of hi-fi sort... well maybe a computer could be turned into something useful and perhaps hi-fi... Please be kind :angel: its my first post I am not sure what your views are on this sort of project guys. |
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| Morien |
Hmmm,
what you want to do is exactly what I'm going to do after I make a projector (see the Video forum). I've looked around a bit before and I think what you are after is what can be found at http://fsai.fh-trier.de/~hermenj/te.../index_engl.php . Except it boots up just like a computer, therefore it takes a little bit to boot up and needs to load windows. I haven't looked at doing a linux one though, so if that'll load instantly (like a DVD player's speeds) and has all compatible software for media than please tell me. You can also build in a remote control reciever like one found at http://www.home-electro.com/ or you could go the whole DIY route and make one yourself. Plans for that can be found at http://www.geocities.com/uirr/index.htm#General
Hope this is what you were after.
Catcha |
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| sangram |
Morien, those were great links. Oh yeah, that first link was good.
He's using a quiet CPU, which doesn't need a fan. A good choice.
I can't say the same thing about Windows 2000, though, it must take forever to boot. More than it takes for tubes to warm up...
Linux-BIOS sounds good, or even a small custom kernel with the right modules built in will be good, assuming you don't need to boot into KDE/Gnome. |
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| cowanrg |
after my aleph project is done (by the end of the year) i want to start this same project... however, im looking at making just a higher end audio machine, not a dvd player as well. basically it would be a big *** jukebox. since HD's are so cheap, i was planning on 2 120GB drives in a raid config, enough to not use mp3, just to copy directly from cd... (enough for roughly 370 cds recorded wihtout compression).
the only problem is i want it high quality, (sonically), easy to use with just a remote control, and most importantly, silent. i dont want fans or minimal use. ive seen it done, but not all those features at once. even heatsinks would do if they case could be big enough. ill definately come back to this, because for now im just using my computer, and its too loud, too big, and too complicated to just play mp3's or whatever. ill follow this thread and give input if needed. (im a computer guy so maybe i could help out on some of the geek stuff. |
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| Schaef |
I just took a look at the first link Morien posted just to make sure I wasn't going to duplicate information. (And found out I would have) If you're interested in the mother board used on that page, you can get more detailed info at: http://www.mini-itx.com/ they have all the details on the board and the newer versions coming soon. (Including how to buy) The board in question is probably the best choice, as it can run without a CPU fan, is relatively cheap (about $100US). Power wise, it probably needs some additional hardware help, but a good video card with TV-out should do the trick. I've thought about picking one of these up and doing similar to what cowanrg said.
P.S. - on the Linux front, you might find it difficult to find some of the drivers you want. (And by stripping the kernel and services down, you can get a pretty quick boot without the BIOS hack) |
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| Sparhawk |
I don't have the money to actually build this project (I'm busy with a pair of Zen v4's and some cdp mods at the moment), but I'll help out if I can. My job involves building custom Linux distributions on custom hardware, so if you decide to go the Linux route, maybe I can offer some advice.
As for the Linux BIOS project, it will speed up your boot time, but only marginally. Once the kernel in BIOS has set up the hardware, it then runs the normal Linux kernel, and you still have to wait for the usual services to start up. Also, there are a very limited number of motherboards that Linux BIOS will run on.
I think Linux is a great way to go for an audio jukebox, but playing DVDs with Linux is not so simple. |
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| gigatron |
| Hey guys thank you so much for replying! :D I thaught no one would :xeye: Now that I see there are people interested we can get this going a bit :) Regarding LinuxBIOS, its a bios replacment which as soon as you press your power button loads linux. Regarding the mini-pcs that is cool and its becoming more of a trend lately! Regarding an MP3 Jukebox i got a better idea for you :) Well you may consider it anyways, get an apex say.. apex ad-700 or more or less the sampo ones or the hitech ones (dvd players) or some clone of them (they are pretty cheap) and u can patch with a custom firmware that eliminates certain mp3 limitations and like.. get rid of the dvd drive (u can use it in computer if u want heh) and put a hard drive in since the apex dvd players have an IDE controller interface. Here are two useful links http://www.area450.com/thesampozone...ectdrivebay.htm and another link http://www.area450.com/thesampozone...alremovable.htm I'll be right back. Final note I wish to add is if you are to use win2k might as well use winxp (yes it has slightly higher system requirments) it boots under 30 seconds and it can be stripped down of its 'features' (hah..) and be like win2k |
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| gigatron |
Ok I just got back, sparhawk thats great news, I'm glad we have you here. From the start I was thinking Linux, it just sounds like a more logical aproach, being open source we are able to customize it fully and strip down all the unecessities (no need for networking for example). Also thanks cowanrg for your interest (bows down to dyi elder) heard of you from my dad heh. I guess we have to put a plan together before anything else. What do we want the box to do?
I see it supporting
VIDEO:
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(X)VCD, (X)SVCD, (Mini-)DVD, ASF, DivX (all variants), XviD, WMV
AUDIO:
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WAV, MP3, WMA, MOD/XM/IT/Etc... (heh for old school sceners)
Anything else you guys might consider required format-wise?
It would be in VCR/Amp/Whatever Hi-fi form anything someone wants, I absolutely think the Mini-TX way is the wisest and thanks for that link. As you may see from one of my above links the VDR looks huge and generally ugly, so a mini-tx would be the wisest solution.
Having a Remote Control (like on dvd, vcr, tv whatever) would be nice. there should be an optional port on the back for debugging and configuring (Mouse, Keyboard -- usb I'd say).
It shouldnt have networking (less services and linux stuff).. however, if we are to make it an mp3 jukebox as well (not just play from cds) then well.. we could use a huge hard drive and have networking.. maybe? im not really up to this i rather then transport mp3s and store on drive if need be then erase later (by certain menu driven options).. i dunno we can discuss this.
it should have a descent DVD Drive thats compatible with all sorts of media. Considering the noise factor is very important as well I agree to what you have said, so in the design process we can consider the components.
I'm still not sure what kind of video card or sound card we could use... Cowanrg whats your aproach? You said you are interested in building a high end audio system.
Could we get one of the leet hardware people from the others boards to get on this and build one? I never herad of anyone even giving the slightest interest in building custom sound cards or anything of that manner.. I guess I'd say we should just stick to a descent grade sound card then? Or will the onboard stuff be descent enough? Same with video? I doubt there are onboard svhs, composite outs, so video card hmm? Some card thats not too expensive but that works then...?
Whats your take on this again guys? |
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| Sparhawk |
You might want to consider adding ogg to the list of audio formats - its popularity is growing, and it is a better alternative to mp3.
As for the form factor, maybe these links will give you some inspiration:
http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1661
http://www.sudhian.com/docs.cfm/id/219.sud
http://forums.sudhian.com/messagevi...&threadid=22039
http://www.via.com.tw/en/VInternet/projects.jsp
http://www.mini-itx.com/projects.asp
And of course this would be the ultimate video card to use, though probably too expensive:
http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files...w_9700pro.shtml
As for the sound card, it sould definitely have digital outputs, preferably both toslink and coax (some people will tell you coax is better - and I would probably agree - except that a PC sound card isn't exactly a low-jitter source to begin with).
You mentioned that it shouldn't have any networking capabilities - I disagree here. I think that is one feature that makes the whole thing so interesting. You can have a large, noisy file server located somewhere in the basement, and stream video and audio files over the network to the HTPC (home theatre pc) or whatever you want to call this thing. :D
Have you thought about hard drives? You'll probably want the Seagate Barracuda IV, as it is one of the quietest drives available, and also high performance. This link provides a comparison of nearly all currently available drives, including noise and heat:
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1540/
Hope this helps. |
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| gigatron |
| Hey thats such a good idea actually OMG wireless home theater around the house! Thats great! |
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| gigatron |
| I wish to add again, on that page it says that a Matrox G450 is a descent card for this sort of thing, I would have to agree Matrox is absolutely unbeaten when it comes to 2D Quality. I remember reading up on it too and seeing the difference in real life. Nvidia (older prior to gf4) had visual issues because of poor filters that caused distortion here's the read for anyone interested http://w3.ualg.pt/~ftomaz/nvidia/nvidia.html . Anyways not to bore people regarding ati's new card well it is quite something but its too expensive and its too much sided towards 3d games, we need a high quality 2d video card with a quality svhs, composite output the g550 also has a dvi output. http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/mill_g550/home.cfm According to the price on bottom of page u can get it for $125 in US and $195 in canada. That is pretty cheap when we look at the new raedon and should do the job nicely. Plus I'm positive that in some nice computer place it will be found for cheap.. heck maybe even ebay! |
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| gigatron |
| Regarding audio well. i am wondering... I am thinking how would we use some hifi amp, preamp, spekearers, etc.. to make the experience like a real hifi theatre experience not just computer quality based sound somehow hooked up to speakers. I am not quite sure how sound cards work compared to hifi stuff. This is the best sound card to date http://www.soundblaster.com/products/audigy2/ however... ya... would i be able to hook this up to a preamp, then go to an amp then speakers and not make everything crisp fried and explode? Whats the point of getting such an expensive sound card? I dunno. Whats your take on this? I'm not getting too many replies to my post :) I am talking to myself here hehe |
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| sangram |
My :2c: take on video and sound is: If you want the full HT option, consider the ATI range which offer amazing video quality, specially for DVD decoding. Matrox is a good one for 2D quality but not as great as ATI when it comes to video decoding. The Radeon 8500 is going for about 130 US and is absolutely fantastic for this sort of thing. Dual CRT/DVI capable, Composite out, the expensive ones even have a video-in. Pick up an all-in-wonder ATI 8500 for a few more bills, and you get a TV tuner and full vid capture suite. Hard-drive VCR, anyone??
As far as sound goes, onboard will just not cut it. Not even close. The soundcard should have audiophile quality, and I can think no further than the m-Audio Audiophile, with full 24/96 capability and 5.1 passthrough, digital s/pdif out, the works. For a measly 180 US, it rocks. The Audigy/Audigy2 is pathetic in comparison to these. It will sound like a computer soundcard...
There are also 24/192 cards with 135 dB dynamic range by Ego Systems, which I also like quite a lot, but that is about 220 bucks, still in Audigy territory but far superior sound quality. Dunno about Linux support, though. This will need to be checked out. Ideally this entire setup can go to a 5.1 receiver, or an amp for an amazing experience. You can always give separate clock inputs to improve jitter, but these cards are far superior to 'computer' audio cards.
These cards are actually used by semi pro studios for tracking, so I doubt you'll have an issue with the sound quality/jitter/connectivity. If you've got a few grand to spend, you can pick up a Digi 001/Pro tools, which is the industry standard for digital recording (so I hear). I'm sure the playback will be top-notch, too.
I second the Seagate Barracuda, I have two of them in the same computer and don't have a clue when they're spinning and when they're not.
The back port is easy: a spare USB port going out to a powered hub will allow you to connect Keyboard, mouse, whatever. |
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| gigatron |
| Im just collecting information now, perhaps go out and investigate on these as well, money doesn't matter as long as we can gather all sorts of information. About the non-creative cards you mentioned, whats up with them? Do they have websites for their products I honestly never heard of them, I never ever went psycho crazy over audio stuff on the computer, i swear i stuck to an ancient sb16 for the longest time but a year ago or so bought a sblive for like 40 bux because there was too much jitter when playing divx. Regarding the video card, I have seen matrox cards have primo 2d quality, I dont have much experience on the raedon cards :xeye: I am currently sticking to a geforce2gts that I moded to a quadro2pro (just a resistor switch to change ID and voila a featurful quadro2pro.. anyways if you are interested in this ill open a new thread but...lets continue). So the G550 is nice.. however you say the raedon8500 is neato? I am personally not interested in making a VCR but I guess we can experiment and make plans for various projects relating to each other. Anyone else have a take on this as well? Also we COULD take a windows based route.. but it would be slower, more system intensive, etc... That's the reason I am so interested in using linux its the opposite of that. When it comes to drivers I am sure the companies that create the hardware would be willing to give out information and I could convince a few linux guru programmers :) I have my connections on that heh. |
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| Smeven |
I have been looking at lots of software and hardware to throw together a project for portable and/or car media player. As far as software goes I think that gstreamer (possibly monkey-media) is the best thing to use. That would cover pretty much all of the audio/video formats. For the operating system I would want to use linux, of course. I would also want linuxbios running on it.
For hardware I liked the VIA EPIA, which is compatible with linuxbios and is mini-ITX form factor.
Tell me what you think. |
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| gigatron |
| Well I asked the guys in the mailing list regarding LinuxBios and whether they would support mini-tx mobos however they just said which mobo i am talking about, honetsly i havent experimented with mini-tx systems as of yet SO, what mobo sounds reasonable? I mean we have to consider that divx and certain formats are system intensive OF COURSE we will turn the system into this specific purpose not say ripping DVDs and listening to mp3s at the same time lmao.. anyways... ya :/ What do you guys think is a descent spec for highquality full playback of the formats I mentioned (and i wish i could add OGG since someone mentioned its gaining popularity -- its an audio format, i think i also missed XviD not sure) |
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| Smeven |
This motherboard http://www.viavpsd.com/product/epia...otherboardId=21
is fully-compatible with linux bios. It is small, quiet, power efficent. Plus the C3 800MHz cpu should be plenty powerful.
And you mentioned you wish you could add ogg. I highly reccomend looking at gstreamer.net. For the supported media formats check http://www.gstreamer.net/status/
gstreamer covers mp3, ogg, avi, mpg2, dvd, acc, flacc, etc. (just look at that page) |
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| gigatron |
| C3? Celeron 3? Not sure if that would be enough processing power, divx is quite processor intensive, and some other formats well they are probably too.. of course we'd optimize the system JUST for playing these so i guess thats nice :rolleyes: Also wstream seems like a promising future project (also if i didnt misread says it doesnt depend on x :) yay hehe plus I am more then sure we could convince alot of people to contribute to our project here I am more then sure they'd be interested!) |
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| Smeven |
| It isnt a celeron, it is a via chip, and it should be plenty fast to play a movie. You keep mentioning projects that can play diff formats. But it is already done. Gstreamer does just about everything you are saying. And imho it would be a waste of time to work with anything else. |
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| gigatron |
| Ya I suppose so, I just never worked around mini-tx based mobos, so this C3 chip is neither AMD or Intel? Cyrix? Lol i dont know :/ via's chip, whats it compare to (Intel's model speed blabla or AMD's chip this and that model)? |
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| Smeven |
| I don't think it is as fast as the AMD/Intel competitors but it is fast enough to play an avi or some heavily compressed media format. |
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| gigatron |
| Well.. Do you own it? I don't want to buy it and be disapointed :) I know for a fact that playing divx is processor intensive (at least the old codecs -- the newer ones are way more optimized and aren't so cpu intensive). Anyone got their two cents on this mobo? It is interesting to note it has a tv output and audio outputs however, we want to achieve quality but for testing purposes that is cool. |
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| Smeven |
I dont own it but I have been looking at it for quite sometime now (even before it was compatible with linuxbios). Definately a m/b to look into.
As for networking.....I think we would want that to be include in the kernel for this machine. It could very useful and provide features that would supercede competitors products. For instance you could have a streaming video/audio server. ie. videolan, icecast. Also you could have it able to retrieve cddb information if a person wanted to play a cd. Just a thought. monkey-media is an interface for gstreamer (makes it really easy to make audio/video players) and it has cddb and musicbrainz support |
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| gigatron |
| Some interesting ideas regarding network indeed yes.. At first i wasn't considering of including networking at all just to rid of all the unecessities however, those are interesting ideas (i like the cddb one :) Also if you have read about the VDR project they included LCD Displays we should give that a shot too. Although I am sure we could just make everything on screen and controlled by a custom remote controller. |
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| Smeven |
| This is sort of a coincidence, but my brother bought a replayTV(like tivo) today. And their units are networkable. So if one unit has a show recorded on it all the others have access to it and can download it. A nice feature if you want multiple units. Also it can update software and update the TV guide. |
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| cowanrg |
for my box im going to go for professional sound card all the way. sound blaster is alright, but in the high end arena, its just mid-fi at best. there are a couple that stereophile reviewed quite favorably.
plus, anytime you are dabbling in the analog realm INSIDE a computer case, the output might be ****... my box would ONLY have optical/coax digital out... it would NEED a pre-amp out. but i would much rather output a digital signal and have a REAL piece of audio gear decode it than rely on an audio card inside a computer to do it...
ive also seen quite a bit of FULL DIY mp3 decoders. you could build the board, interface with a HD, and you dont need the whole computer... less heat and less electronics. if you could use a digital out of somesort, you could just get a good layout, good circuit board, and use high quality components... you would then need to somehow download to the harddrive somehow... but that IMO would be the ideal.
| quote: | Originally posted by gigatron
Regarding audio well. i am wondering... I am thinking how would we use some hifi amp, preamp, spekearers, etc.. to make the experience like a real hifi theatre experience not just computer quality based sound somehow hooked up to speakers. I am not quite sure how sound cards work compared to hifi stuff. This is the best sound card to date http://www.soundblaster.com/products/audigy2/ however... ya... would i be able to hook this up to a preamp, then go to an amp then speakers and not make everything crisp fried and explode? Whats the point of getting such an expensive sound card? I dunno. Whats your take on this? I'm not getting too many replies to my post :) I am talking to myself here hehe |
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| cowanrg |
which unit is it? i sell those things, and there is a kinda catch to them... the wiring to "network" them isnt all that desirably. using a computer with a tuner is a world better... they use a DVi networking, which needs quite a bit of expensive cables.
| quote: | Originally posted by Smeven
This is sort of a coincidence, but my brother bought a replayTV(like tivo) today. And their units are networkable. So if one unit has a show recorded on it all the others have access to it and can download it. A nice feature if you want multiple units. Also it can update software and update the TV guide. |
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| Smeven |
| I like that approach to sound. I do have a sound blaster live mp3+ 5.1 with a 6 speaker + sub create labs speaker system hooked up to it. And It sounds awesome(better than my brothers $400 sound system). Something like this would be pretty Ideal. |
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| gigatron |
| Hey that is very interesting? DIY MP3 standalone players? Got links? That is cool but still we want to build a video and audio player. Regarding your choice of sound cards, you said you would output digital, then build a digital to analog converter or something? Give me some more info sounds interesting. I plan to use my dad's Class-A Hi-Fi stuff; pre-amp, amp and speakers. hehehehe.... he wont mind :) I want quality of course! |
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| Smeven |
| cowrang, the unit uses standard cat 5 networking (hooked to a hub). it does have a tuner in it, the networking is just used for TV Guide and Software updates, plus the other networking stuff i mentioned |
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| cowanrg |
thats all good and dandy, but honestly, that is barely mid-fi. hook that system up to a standalone stereo, and you will notice a difference. there are hifi sound cards out there that will run circles around any soundblaster for around $150 with all the digital in/outs and analog in/outs you could possibly want...
most of the cost of soundblaster is in the bundled software and the extra useless features like DSP, etc...
| quote: | Originally posted by Smeven
I like that approach to sound. I do have a sound blaster live mp3+ 5.1 with a 6 speaker + sub create labs speaker system hooked up to it. And It sounds awesome(better than my brothers $400 sound system). Something like this would be pretty Ideal. |
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| Smeven |
| Agreed, If we wanna make a serious project out of it I would definately take your approach. |
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| Smeven |
| If any of you want a more interactive discussion you can join me on irc.openprojects.net in #synapse. Just grab any irc client. xchat, winirc, irssi, *****x, etc |
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| gigatron |
| I'm kinda multitasking right now :D However I will drop in right away! It would be wise to organize and sum up all that we've discussed so far in a design document/plan then get back into the discussion otherwise we'll just end up with a busy thread :spin: |
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| cowanrg |
there are tons of sites on the net. do a search for DIY and MP3. im still in my current project (a 6-channel class A theatre. commercially would have been over $22K for amps alone, hehe). but after that i plan on building an audiophile grade mp3 player. i MIGHT include divx or some other formats, but quite frankly, its too much extra stuff, i wouldnt know how to go about progressive scan output, and there are great dvd players out there anyway...
to answer the question, if you use digital out, you would jsut run it into a pre-amp, which would convert it into a usable signal...
but for BEST quality, you wouldnt really want a D/A converter in with the components... using a separate pre-amp would be best...
| quote: | Originally posted by gigatron
Hey that is very interesting? DIY MP3 standalone players? Got links? That is cool but still we want to build a video and audio player. Regarding your choice of sound cards, you said you would output digital, then build a digital to analog converter or something? Give me some more info sounds interesting. I plan to use my dad's Class-A Hi-Fi stuff; pre-amp, amp and speakers. hehehehe.... he wont mind :) I want quality of course! |
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| gigatron |
Ok I am not too experienced in the hi-fi sphera :) My father is I have yet to ask him about this (he just found out i am a member on the diyaudio forums lol). We have a pre-amp (currently cd player and dvd hooked up to it) and a cheap class-a amp. Custom built kef speakers (similar to 104/2 ref series but better). He is building an aleph4 though. He will also build a pre-amp based on one of the designs by Mr. Nelson. Could you be a bit more gentle for my young mind and enlighten me how we would go about doing this as in achieving highest quality from a sound card and using in this config :)
My intent is to have a player that is beyond just a DVD Player, it has to be capable to play DivX and XVid they are not standard and no standalone commercial player will come out for a long time if ever. BUT if we are to build this why not make it of high quality :) |
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| gigatron |
http://www.overclockers.com.au/tech...den/index.shtml
There's a read on that minitx mobo. It seems a very lo-fi solution then. It is capable of playing divx at the lowest quality settings. DVD-wise its horrid. According to the benchmarks its weaker then a P2-400. I had a P3-600 with a gf2gts and it was jittery playback of divx so I can only guess how this is...ah well its still an interesting piece of hardware to know about, but I guess.. we should stay away from this FOR NOW. The fastest component is as fast as the slowest, we'll just run into bottlenecks of sorts I don't think this is a good choice for the time being even getting a descent video card with good video decoding performance. So.. I guess we should hunt down full size mobos for now. |
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| bergeron76 |
Have you seen the dashpc project? It's very similar to what you're trying to do; however, it's designed for a car. As such, it could easily be adapted to a home stereo(ish) application. We have quite a following and the project is growing exponentially. Check it out and feel free to contribute if you feel so inclined:
http://www.dashpc.com/
Cheers,
CB |
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| gigatron |
| Cowanarg which card will you with? So you will use a digital out BUT connect to a box that converts to analog then to preamp? |
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| Smeven |
I am not exactly a buff on high-end audio-video equipment, so maybe some of the more knowlegable people could start throwing out linux-compatible highend sound cards/tv tuners so we can get an idea of possible hardware to use. Once we get a list of hardware to use in this PC Home Theater I would be more than happy to buy all of the hardware and start programming some software to make it happen. i.e. audio/video player, customer linux distrobution, modified stripped down kernel, etc.
Let me know what you think. |
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| Smeven |
I found this motherboard http://www.ecs.com.tw/products/k7sem.htm and it is linuxbios compatible. It has two pci slots and an agp slot. It has a network card built in which maybe useful. The things I am wondering is...the cards we wanna have in this. I know for sure that one PCI slot will be taken up by the sound card, so that leaves us with an AGP slot and a PCI slot (granted we use this board or one similar). Of course we will have a graphics card in the AGP slot (i am leaning towards ATI). But the question is, do we wanna have an all in wonder with a TV tuner in the graphics card. Or do we wanna get just a standalone graphics card and get a PCI TV (+AM/FM??) Tuner. It is all up for discussion.
Now this board uses Amd cpu's, I am not sure if it will use an XP processor. Even if it doesnt, it should support up to 1.4Ghz, which should be plenty to play pretty much anything.
Personally the Setup I'd go for is a Sound Card, TV Tuner /w AM/FM tuner, and a standalone Graphics Card. And if I do decide on the All-in-wonder I will probably get a wireless network PCI card for the extra slot. |
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| sangram |
| quote: | Originally posted by Smeven
<snip>Now this board uses Amd cpu's, I am not sure if it will use an XP processor. Even if it doesnt, it should support up to 1.4Ghz, which should be plenty to play pretty much anything.
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Yes, including its own little noises. The 1.4 GHz processors (actually, pretty much all AMD processors) need hefty coolers and loud fans. Pretty noisy creatures. I use one myself, and the whine of the fan makes me turn it off whenever I'm not gonna use it for more than an hour.
I would go with a Via C3, maybe a 933 MHz. It needs no fan, just a dinky passive heatsink, consumes very little power (so a smaller, quieter PSU) and will be able to keep up with DivX (Which I doubt a 500 MHz can).
And if you wanna powerful, small, quiet machine, take a look at this:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/...0710/index.html
If this whets your appetite, I have more where that came from. |
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| Smeven |
| My first choise was to use the VIA C3 Processor but there were some people that claimed the divx playback was poor. The only things that should be really cpu intensive are dvd and divx. But I think that the Video Card should do most of that, granted their video card has an Xv driver. Also, that shuttle you posted a link too....I don't think you can get the motherboard seperate from that casing (i could be wrong). |
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| sangram |
All right, then, how about the one above: Quiet AND powerful enough for lots of stuff. OR, if you want your Radeon 8500, too, how about :
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/...51/index.x?pg=1
Slap in a 2.53 GHz P3, a GeForce Ti4600, 512 MB DDR RAM, and voila! A powerhouse of a box...
Or if you wanna more or less put it together, how's this for funk:
http://www.dansdata.com/atc600.htm
Cool, huh??
And yes, I think you can get Mini-ITX/Flex ATX mobos separately:
http://www.baber.com/baber/411/asus_p4bfx.htm
http://industrial-computers.baber.c...s/mbdit002A.htm
Here's one of the Shuttle ones:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/iitemcom/shutfvsoc370.html
Again a bit of hunting about on newegg will get you great prices on this kind of stuff.
www.newegg.com
For a DVD/DivX kind of box, the C3 (higher speeds, 750 and above) are good enough. The integrated video in most of the small mobos are what cause the skippy playback... |
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| cowanrg |
you guys are going WAY overboard....
anything over like 800mhz is overkill. keep in mind, with the right programming, playing a divx only requires a 600mhz, and an mp3 can be run from about 200mhz. this is in windows...
ram at 256 is probably a good bet, just because its cheap, but more than that is silly. its just extra heat you dont need. remember, how are you going to output that 1600x1200 @ 100hz signal to a computer? svideo wont handle it, a composite cable cant handle it... you will need to get a converter for RGB DB15 to component cable... this is easy enough, but still, you cant run that high of res anyway. 1024x768 is going to be about the max it can do. so, a 32mb video card, built in will work wonders. and a slower cpu will do.
personally, im just gonna use the money and the space for HD's. i want at least 1 120gb, maybe 2 or 3. i dont want to use mp3, just save everything as straight wav format... a single 120gb HD can hold 180+ cds at full wav format. get another one, and you are at 360 cds. thats more than most people have. and if its RAID, you can have up to 4 for people who own a LOT of cds.
sometimes less is more guys. the idea here is to build a small computer, that doesnt need cooling, with massive storage, easy to use without a screen (or a nice menu-driven gui), with some quality output.
if you are going the video route (divx, dvd, vcd, etc...), i would NOT go for a tuner too. i mean realistically, EVERYTHING has a tuner. your tv can tune too... its just an added headache. try programming that into a gui. your remote control just got 10x the size... and tv tuners working under linux will be a little sketchy. but for a video card, just a nice low level geforce will do. anything else will be overkill. keep in mind, these cards only get fully utlilized in games. video out would be good of course, preferably svideo. but if not, you can convert a DB15 monitor out to component. so you can get progressive scan output for HDTV sets. (whats the point in having video output if its not a high quality feed? might as well just use a vcr.)
IMO, im not even adding video. well, only video out for a way to use the gui really... so audio will be my focus. i will probably go with that soundcard that stereophile liked. its great quality, and not that pricey (along the same price as a nice audigy). the sound output will be a lot better than any standard card. plus it has all the ins and outs you need. |
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| gigatron |
Hey guys im glad you are very intersted in this we will hopefuly see some LinuxBios people coming on the forums as well. OK in the beginning my (personal) intent was to just have a hi-fi super video/audio player with minimalistic linux distro JUST to play this kinda stuff. HOWEVER people jumped to some new (cool) ideas like wireless networking over the house, tuner as well, a recorder. HOWEVER. For a recorder we need quite a powerhouse, but I didnt want that in the first place. Regarding a tuner, i dunno whats the major point :/ Its too much work and would be extra extra work. The networking i first thaught not to have any at all to strip down networking over all in the custom distro. HOWEVER networking could prove a lot of cool features. I guess a way to implement these ideas is to make it above any dvd HOWEVER with all the formats it should support its already above :/
Regarding what we need well we'll just need an audio and video card. The video cards that have a tuner on them are usually downgraded and from what i heard the all in wonder raedon 9700 is weaker then the 9700. We just need high quality image and perhaps some video decompression performance enhancment.
A good fast, reliable, compatible and quiet DVD drive.
Hard drive for the software, or well if we go deeper for other purposes as well.
The C3 processor is **** according to benchmarks its worse then a P2 400MHz machine, and DVD playback is jittery and skippy while Divx playback is *perfect* but with the quality settings all the way down :/
Now we all know that we'll be using custom stripped down software so we dont have to worry of having quake9 running in the background that might slow down our mp3, or divx playback. Anywho yes, divx and dvd playback is our main performance issue, mp3 WAS an issue back in the day. We should also consider that component prices are dropping so a 1+GHz machine isnt so expensive no more.
I have a long weekend coming up I will write a design document summing up all that we've discussed in an organized little page. Also I am all the way for a mini-tx mobo BUT one that doesnt have the C3, cause its a poopy processor not enough for DVD and DivX playback. OK so it was tested under windows but still :/ We should pick a mobo that supports DDR ram and an AMD cpu, a 'real processor' not some fake x86 processor. Heh ya, and I am sure the linuxbios guys would be willing to work on a mobo we chose for this project. So lets concentrate on our hardware selection. Hmm anywho like I said I will write up that design doc it should help us be more organized
Again we need to consider the hardware components to be of hi-fi use! Price shouldnt matter for NOW. We must make the good choices of hardware combinations. Putting aside the fact that maybe the motherboard isnt supported by LinuxBios but is PERFECT, i am sure again that we can convince the linuxbios guys to support it. The sound card and video card must be QUALITY not some commercial **** with a billion audio channels, 9999 shaders of onscreen leetness. 4086x4086 texture support, etc... just quality audio and quality video.
When looking at mobos also considering the BIOS size is important! If we use LinuxBios although I dont think it should be an issue with current mobos |
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| Smeven |
TV Cards work perfectly fine in linux. I have actually had better performance with my tv card under linux than I did in windows. But you are right, a tv card isnt neccessary.
The system that I want is something that can play audio/video, and can rip dvd's to vp5, divx5, mpeg. Also I want it to be able to rip cd's to ogg and also retrieve CDDB info from a lan (all possible with the use of monkey-media and gstreamer).
I want to have all of my audio and video in a single box without having to pull out a dvd or cd to listen or watch something.
http://freevo.sourceforge.net looks like a good project |
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| gigatron |
| Interesting it would seem there are others who are doing projects like ourselves |
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| Smeven |
| Yeah, And The more I look at their project the more I want to contribute to it. I am trying to contact them now. I think than rather starting our own project we ought to look at this as something to contribute to |
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| gigatron |
| You can always get best results by working together on something new rather then continuing on someone else's project :/ Although its intersting to see other projects to get inspiration honestly i never knew others did what i sort of thaught i 'started' lol... |
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| Smeven |
| Well, this project is what I was looking for. If they will let me program what I want into it (gstreamer/mm support), I am gonna go with freevo. |
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| gigatron |
:( I was hoping we could have someone as leet as you on the linux side of things :( dont leave man noooo :bawling:
And we could use a plugin and plugout model (what i mean by this is..) have the ability to remove a certain component from our player software. For example make it customizable in the sense that we can remove/enable the options for networking, remove/enable option for a digital recorder, remove/enable playback of certain formats etc... So we can make it appealing to the specific user not requiret them to have a TV Tuner if they dont want TV, etc... |
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| Smeven |
I will probably decide which project to go with probably in the next day or so. Which ever one I decide to use i will probably start programming in a couple days. Currently I am leaning towards Freevo, because they are months ahead, and already have a strong base of code. IF you guys are really serious about this project I will stay, BUT we are gonna have to have a few C coders, I will be programming in C, and if I do this I will probably make a db backend to make things snappy. If any other programmers wanna do this, post to the list asap.
Basically, to get started, we need a User Interface, media player (via gstreamer).
Some of you think I may be getting a little premature. But there is no reason to wait. I want to get started this week. If any of you can't program or don't wanna start that soon....well...I will probably go with freevo.
Anyway, give it some thought. |
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| gigatron |
| i am more then serious :( However you seem anctious about Freevo :bawling: |
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| Smeven |
I am anxious about either. Freevo of course has many advantages. In order to make this a good project we want to have quite a few linux guru's, coders, packagers, testers, etc.
If we can round that up in the next couple days, I say lets do it. I am willing to code a media player, a tv guide, and I will probably just take xawtv to watch tv, and I will make a db backend (mainly for the networking advantage), also dvd/cd ripper/encoder via transcode/gstreamer would be cool to have. This will take quite a bit of time and work. But we need programmers |
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| Schaef |
Okay, I'm stepping in (I think again) with some comments. First, gigatron, why are you so infatuated with linuxBios? Its not going to speed things up greatly, maybe what you really want is to be able to suspend current processing to some type of flash ram, so that you can get almost instant on, rather than linuxBios.
Secondly, don't completely discount the C3, there are more coming, and the newer ones are faster. Also, don't forget with TV, you'll only need at max, 800x600 (unless you have an HDTV, then 1024x768) and DVD's only currently run at roughly 640x480.
As to the sound card, why are you looking at a card to actually produce the analog sound anyway? Get one with digital out and tie it to either an outboard DAC or a receiver with digital in capability. Get the audio as far away from the PC as possible. (it also reduces some of the processing power needed if it doesn't have to worry about audio)
As for coders, what exactly are you looking at coding Smeven? Are you just looking to wrapper a bunch of available programs or custom writing a bunch of stuff? Are you guys looking at using a full GUI on the TV or just using a serial LCD display and a remote to do everything or what?
One last thing, gigatron, you have repeatedly said the C3 sucks, which one are you talking about? VIA currently has two mini-itx boards with the C3, one at about 500 Mhz and one at around 800Mhz, and the price difference is around $10! I can view DIVX;) movies on my Athlon 500 just fine, so the 800Mhz should be able to handle it as well. But it all depends what else you're putting in there as well. |
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| Smeven |
| Schaeff, I think it would be a waste a time to try to start from scratch. I have been looking around at quite a few projects. Currently there is xawtv (tv viewer), xmltv(tv guide), mplayer(media player), etc. I just wanna have a cool User Interface that interacts with these programs. But we still need coders. Also, In case someone doesnt wanna hook the unit to their tv I think we should have a little lcd on the unit itself to control it (with a remote). |
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| Morien |
If anyone is interested, the mainboard i'm gonna be using is at http://www.navada.com.au/shop/itemD...id=MBASA7N266VM
It's the ASUS A7N266-VM Video Sound Lan AGP Slot DDR Mainboard and it's cheap (only $138.30AUD). Except my player, when finished will be used in conjunction with a video projector and thus I don't require a tv-out. Also the digital out for the sound will be plugged into a hi-fi reciever, therefor I won't require a 5.1 soundcard either (5.1 soundcards just have kind of an in-built reciever for use with a computer 5.1 speaker system.) |
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| sangram |
| quote: | Originally posted by Morien
<snip>If anyone is interested, the mainboard i'm gonna be using is <snip><snip>
the ASUS A7N266-VM Video Sound Lan AGP Slot DDR Mainboard <snip> |
An excellent choice. Thsi is one great motherboard which offers very good memory performance with excellent graphics and sound capabilities. I have used about 7 of these in computer systems and am completely convinced that it offers giant-killer performance at a show-stopping price...
It is a little large, because it is in micro-ATX format, so you will not be able to go into super-small cases, also you'll have to carefully plan the cooling. Some Athlon coolers can drown out a rock concert... |
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| Schaef |
| quote: | Originally posted by Smeven
Schaeff, I think it would be a waste a time to try to start from scratch. I have been looking around at quite a few projects. Currently there is xawtv (tv viewer), xmltv(tv guide), mplayer(media player), etc. I just wanna have a cool User Interface that interacts with these programs. But we still need coders. Also, In case someone doesnt wanna hook the unit to their tv I think we should have a little lcd on the unit itself to control it (with a remote). |
This is what I was hoping you would say. I too think it would be a HUGE waste of time to re-write a bunch of stuff that already exists. Just put a pretty wrapper on them so that they can all be controlled from one location.
I also agree that you want to look at an LCD with remote. Most people aren't going to want to go to their mouse to click things. (I would say for the GUI, think along the lines of DVD players)
Are you sure C is the way to go with wrappering a bunch of programs? As much as I hate it, TCL can be used to quickly put a unified GUI on a bunch of scripts. (Or better yet, java shouldn't be too hard to get a pretty GUI and shell commands working with) I just think you'll find doing C with X to be a big pain in the behind. (And just to give you an idea where I'm coming from, I know C like the back of my hand, hate TCL with a passion, and am just discovering java)
P.S. - And I'm a computer programmer in real life as well. (No, I'm not trying to sound big and impressive, just that I'm not talking out my butt) |
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| cowanrg |
computer programmer? big and impressive? i don't get it.
hehe, just kidding.
:wave:
| quote: | Originally posted by Schaef
P.S. - And I'm a computer programmer in real life as well. (No, I'm not trying to sound big and impressive, just that I'm not talking out my butt) |
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| LaZarus |
I have read some of the posts in this thread and I hope I can contribute with some ideas.
About the cpu and cooling requirements, I would suggest to buy a nice cheap AMD Duron 1300 Mhz cpu and use the motherboard bios to underclock it, so it will produce a lot less heat. This way you can get good performance for for you money (this cpu costs only euro 59 in the Netherlands).
Another thing you can do is replace the standard cooler by a Papst fan. These are a bit expensive, but produce only 12 or so DB's with an airflow of 30 m3/h. |
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| intelceleronman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Schaef
One last thing, gigatron, you have repeatedly said the C3 sucks, which one are you talking about? VIA currently has two mini-itx boards with the C3, one at about 500 Mhz and one at around 800Mhz, and the price difference is around $10! I can view DIVX;) movies on my Athlon 500 just fine, so the 800Mhz should be able to handle it as well. But it all depends what else you're putting in there as well. |
Hi
The C3 doas not do the same amount of work per mhz of your AMD. A C3 700mhz is about the same speed of a celeron 400mhz. |
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| gigatron |
| Thank you intel :) |
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| sangram |
| quote: | Originally posted by intelceleronman
A C3 700mhz is about the same speed of a celeron 400mhz. |
Which actually is decent enough for a DVD player... |
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| intelceleronman |
| quote: | Originally posted by sangram
Which actually is decent enough for a DVD player... |
I have watched dvd on a celeron 300A and it was a small bit jerky. On a celeron 633 it was ok.
I think 500mhz will be safe. |
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| sangram |
| quote: | Originally posted by intelceleronman
I think 500mhz will be safe. |
Yeah, so a 933 C3 would be fine. The only reason for the C3 is noise! it does not need a fan... If you can do with bit of noise, use a P4. their fans are not any noisier than Celly fans... |
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| Schaef |
| quote: | Originally posted by sangram
Yeah, so a 933 C3 would be fine. The only reason for the C3 is noise! it does not need a fan... If you can do with bit of noise, use a P4. their fans are not any noisier than Celly fans... |
And a P4 costs 2 to 3 times as much as the celeron. (Not even taking the RAM into account)
A couple of things, I just double-checked the mini-itx site, and VIA is getting ready to release a new generation that looks like it will fit the bill of what you guys want. Also, you guys do realize there are two different C3 boards currently available, right? There's the 533Mhz one, and there's an 800Mhz one. The price difference between the two is negligible, so I'd go for the 800Mhz instead of the other one.
Also, the site has a review of a hardware decompression card from RealMagic that might be enough to get what you want from the current generation! I don't know about Linux support for it yet, (I'm just now reading the review) but it looks promising! |
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| gigatron |
| Actually I know I was talking about the 800MHz C3, it was pure ****, the DVD playback was jitterish and the divx playback was OK when set to minimum quality :/ I dont think we wont that now :/ I wouldnt mind a little bit of 'noise' with one fan however... I would stay away from the C3 variants, I did see a nice P4 and AMD mini-tx solution (its one of the boards that was reviewed with a gf4 ti4600 inside and a network card) |
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| dc |
I searched the printable version of this thread, but didn't find any mention of the avsforum... I'd guess you're all aware of it, but, if not, it's an excellent resource for this kind of work (www.avsforum.com - look through the home theater computers area). There's also a sub-forum in the htpc area for linux boxes, porting dscaler, etc.
Also, as far as reducing fans, noise, etc. there's a nice little 3RU case coming out soon which is designed specifically for htpc use - http://www.atechfabrication.com/products/HTPC_case.htm with optional IR receiver and VFD module. It accepts full-size ATX, but only uses two 70mm case fans with a P4. |
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| gigatron |
Well I tryed not to be boastful or anoying however no one seems to be responding on that forum, I am assuming its cause i didnt post in the linux forum I hope to have it moved however... I just posted what my intent is and asked in a sense what hardware i should go with (since it seems alot of the people on there build these systems and they call them home theatre pc projects)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=178810
They dont seem to be responding :/ I am basicly reiterating what i said in earlier posts but I don't quite want to go too far with things like recording etc... I just wish to build a player for myeslf and share in the future with others how I did it :/ |
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| dc |
| I read your post at avsforum.com. I think no one is responding because, aside from the quick start-up, your project is a little low-tech. HTPC specs, control GUIs (including programmable remotes, like the Pronto and tablet PCs) and software (like media jukebox) already exist which do what you seem to want to do. The fast start-up isn't much of an enticement to most, because most leave their computers running 24/7. Please have a closer look at the Meta FAQ and the Recommended Components threads to understand what that forum is all about. |
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| gigatron |
Hey I went there already, however thanks again, I am still sorta gathering information. When I started I thaught no one even came to the conclusion of building such a device... turns out TOO many people do this :D Which is I guess a good thing, for now I will snoop around the AVS Forum and see what they are all up to when it comes to these kinda projects. When I get some interesting info I'll jump back in here and post something :)
Also DC which Meta FAQ do you speak of, I swear that like slipped my mind (maybe I actually read it not sure what you are talking about though). I wana gather all the information I can gather prior to beginning the purchasing process :) Thats the easy part heh |
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| dc |
I applaud your desire to use Linux, but, for now, for htpc, I think it's hard to escape M$ - there are just too many 3rd party peripherals without Linux drivers.... Hopefully, it won't always be that way.
Here's the FAQ to which I referred: Meta FAQ
Also, if you're interested in audio quality (which it definitely sounds like you are, given the equipment you listed) you might want to have a look at audio cards from M-Audio, LynxTwo, RME Hammerfall and EgoSys. If you can get the DACs out of the box (M-Audio Delta 1010, for example), quality will go up even further, to the point that it would seriously compete with audiophile quality stand-alone DACs. Also, it's my personal opinion that once Windows Media 9 goes public, M-Audio will come out with some new cards (I think the 1010, their flagship card, is about 2-3 years old, now). I also think DVD-A decoding software will be coming along soon, now.
For video, as long as you're making the box, why not look into DScaler, TheaterTek or MyHD?
Happy reading, and best of luck with your project.
brad |
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| gigatron |
Its really late right now been doing some reading here and there, I just noticed you posted a reply, I will read those links you gave me and look into those cards, thank you very much. I am back from my scavenger hunt and I come back with some very interesting info.
Believe it or not there are projects like this that even use DOS! Yes you hear me right, DOS! I was unable to get it all to function unfortunately, I need more time to fiddle with it and I couldn't fit entirely everything I wanted on a floppy.. so I'll continue that little journey BUT I wish to post my findings:
I was looking through my bookmarks and came upon this http://www.opus.co.tt/dave/index.htm To my great surprise there was a divx player for dos! I was extremely excited of the find, I also noticed mp3/ogg/ac3/etc... players. Very interseting food for the inventive mind, however I was unable to get it to work under DOS nor little emulated windows dos window. I need to make a little partition to fiddle with it some more.
From that site I looked into two distinct projects:
http://www.multimediaware.com/qv/index.html Quickview the audio/video player which I might add is being ported to linux (intersting project to watch).
http://mpxplay.cjb.net/ The interesting little audio player.
Unfortunately I had lack of luck to get it to work :)
Regarding windows, honestly I really want to push towards Linux however I wish to remain open minded and not scratch out any possibilities, heck I even got excited over using DOS :) I'll post some more of my little replies tomorrow when I wake up. Thanks again friend
Edit: OMG Meta FAQ = own. I have a lot of reading to do :bigeyes: Wow thats awesome! I better go to sleep *falls on keyboard* |
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| dc |
I forgot to mention a Yahoo Group called PAMS . It's dedicated specifically to getting the best audio out of the PC. There are a number of good links in the links section, as well as discussions of different audio cards (including the Lynx cards).
brad |
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| cowanrg |
i think i found what im going to do...
its a standalone IC-based mp3 player, no computer. uses its own firmware and custom circuit board. not able to play videos, but im gonna have a separate unit for that anyway. basically, modify it for USB (can be done) and add digital outs (my preference) add a HD and you are set. you need a computer to add files, but thats not a huge deal to me. its compact and cheap! here is link.
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/mp3/
its still available, i checked. seems decent. once the amps are done, this might be my new source player. |
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| cowanrg |
looks nice.
unfortunately everyone is making them for portables, and not really so much for a standalone home player. i want one with at least line level outs, and hopefully digital out. once i find that, ill get one :-) but so far, no luck. |
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| sangram |
| quote: | Originally posted by gigatron
What do you guys say about this card? |
The Lynx One has absolutely the best converters in the business. The only reason it falls short is that it's only a 'stereo' card, so is not suitable for professional usage. That said, it is one of the best sounding cards in the pro audio set of options. Apart from the Lynx Two, which is apparently even better... |
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| Morien |
Hey,
I'm not sure if this has been thought of already or mentioned even (sorry, no time to search), but regarding the usage of linux in this project, has anyone thought of using linux and putting a Windows emulator such as WinLin on it?
Also, if you just decide to use Windows directly as the OS, if you put a Linux emulator on it, then run a Windows emulator through that, it will run faster. It may be a backwards way of doing things but it turns out more efficient. |
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| SuperFly |
| OK heres my 2 cents but there r mp3 players which plug in to networks and they retil for like 50 us u just plug the av leads into your amp ect and then u hit the buttons and it grabs it off a computer that is streaming it couldnt we do this 4 divx it sounds like a cheap option. u only need the pc u all ready have ect |
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