| rinox |
In this thread I don' t want to explain technical things.
If someone have not listened to a class D amp, also a T amp, my suggestion is to buy one for few buks, take a sealed acid battery (not a power supply) connect all and listen.
I personally compared it with a Krell 300cx... and no, it's not the same, but also isn' t bad.
Also rember that a krell cost about 4500$ and a T amp cost 100 times less :D
So... if you want super high end fidelity, and you have a lot of buks to spend, don' t make/buy a T amp!! |
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| sx881663 |
| :wave2: :wave2: :wave2: :wave2: |
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| AudioWizard |
| :smash: :scratch2: |
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| IndyAudi |
I think rinox is referring to :-
Yes he started a new thread but I forgot to mention that :-
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| sx881663 |
| :judge: :headshot: |
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| matjans |
:Pinoc:
Just listen to a good class D/T amp. And by good, I don;t mean the SI class t amps.
:darkside: |
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| IndyAudi |
sx881663,
I'm not sure that I fully concur but I'm sure you will fully agree that
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| matjans |
i do agree on the cats are smart thing, however, you just don't need 8 (EIGHT!) cats to drag a sled through the snow, one'll do the trick easily; check here
:clown: |
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| IndyAudi |
matjans,
You definitely missed your 'True Vocation',with your obvious talent you should have been a comedian !
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| matjans |
;) irony is hard to pick up in writing, it depends largely on body language.
i'm outta here. goodnight. |
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| sx881663 |
| Couldn' have said it better myself!:happy2: |
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| mAJORD |
| :o I only just got up |
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| sx881663 |
| :joker: Join in the fun! |
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| IndyAudi |
Yeah maJORD,
But If were you,I think I too would be having some bl**dy sleepness nights watching your team perform during the current 'Ashes Series' (cricket to the uneducated).
My apologies for being way way OT. |
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| matjans |
oh cool let's make this a fancy dress party :clown:. Can I be scooby doo?
sx881663, you can be a cat:
now where was that punch again ? |
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| mAJORD |
| haha, Only I'm one of the more rare non cricket followers .. :D |
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| IndyAudi |
| quote: | | Only I'm one of the more rare non cricket followers |
maJORD,
This is indeed great news that you have no interest in 'The Ashes' and I feel much better that along with the majority of your country men you will not experience that utterley aweful  feeling.
I only hope the rest are good swimmers.
My apologies for being OT are of course offered once again. |
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| Variac |
-:smash:
:bawling: |
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| rinox |
Yes, IndyAudi, you're right, I have read the Mastertech thread and I quikly posted an answer.
Folks, excuse me for that.... next time I will less excited.
Anyway, folks that don' t know what they are talking about... :smash:
First listen..... then talk!! |
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| destroyer X |
Very well Mister, it is all rigth, we will make love, because we have this capacity.
You had the capacity to say the truth.... enormous truth, full of veritá, plenty of verdade, avec la vérite.
The problem Mi Fratello, is that people do not want to hear strong trues, when they have enormous doubts.... when class D and other digital classes could not be accepted...the same way they arrested Nicolau Coppernico perque he said the world turns around the Sun, and not the opposite as the Church was saying.
Class D kick all amplifier classes "S" without any effort, smilling and doing it hard with them....yeahhhhh!
But people do not want to accept...if they accept, their designs will be send to trash!
Their know how will loose value
And they will cannot talk about first time "introductory distortion"...some sexy analogy..... the "Virginity of sound"
No one will can discuss about Intermodulation distortion, and figthing because 0.001 is better than 0.01 and no human could perceive nothing!....ahahahaha!
They will not be worried anymore with phases, cancelling, beating, distortion, overdriven, clipping...they will be alike Devil inside a church.
Those guys do not want, even to listen, they make enormous pression on us...more openned minds...i am constructing class A, and class AB..... and i have to hear those amplifiers...and they sometimes hit my feelings...and i am doing that, not to loose my precious friends...
When i oppened my big mouth to say that other amplifiers classes are dead and people forgot to buried them..... they react with strengh.... saying my class AB "Will eat your class D in the breakfast!"...... or "Please, do not tell me nothing about those things!"..... "i turn "pisted" when you insist with this conversation"..... i decided to call class D.... "the thing"...as they could not accept anyway.
But the true have to survive, despite of my cowardy to face those guys.... because could not loose them around me...talking with me.... i perceive that they will respect me only if i repeat that Class D is evoluting....some day..... long distant future, class D will be good.... they say that!..... and i repeated that...and i am doing that.
You could see the reaction..... the thread guys reaction means:
- "How deer this guy conclude those things when i am already in doubt!"
They are here trying to believe..it is hard to believe when more than half world do not believe.
Well, cars without chassis were considered something that can dissappear fast as "Instantaneous Milk solved into warm watter" if involved in some crash accident.
"Those small japanese cars will never be accepted in US!"
"Russian guys are bad and eat childrens!"
I congratulate you hardly fratello Romano, Ceasar Warrior that hold the "Gladius" to face the barbarians.
Also i congratulate you to go backwards...join the Club my friend...the ones that have to say that the world is squared...that the sky is green, only to be accepted by our community.
Welcome....bienvenutto, tu sei un vero uomo!
arrivederci Legionnari Romani
Carlo di Danesi, di Firenze...brasiliano Italiano e buona gente! |
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| classd4sure |
Hi Carlos,
Hahaha.... shame on you.
You can be worried about being accepted or you can enjoy within your self the fact that you are right, having no need to share in their own personal hang ups, or perhaps ignorance, if you will, some more than others.
Just build your class d amps small poweful and clean, tell them it's a class A... who cares, if they don't believe you their only reason will be that it sounds too good and runs too cool, you dont' even need to agree with them.
Regards,
Chris |
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| Workhorse |
Hi Everyone,
Class-D has a promising future in HI-FI as well as in Pro-audio..
Presently, We manufacture Class-AB NVMOS amps, but in coming 2-3 years Class-D would be our first & Final choice. We have Build several prototypes and samples and they are running under testing period....for now!
Class-D has several immaculate advantages in Pro-audio.
Excellent Sound
High Power Density
Very low heatsinking
Light power supply as compared to Class-AB
Robust when subjected to reactive Loads
At last light weight and of course the magic!
cheers to all,
K a n w a r |
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| destroyer X |
I think exactly alike you two, nothing to add or to remove, and nothing to discuss...just some details to say.
They use to show us the weeknesses of Class D, those common amplifiers used in home Systems.... they are really limited in frequency range.
I made CD recordings having all sinus tones, going from 5 herts to 20 kilohertz...and really, i have started to perceive some speaker movement around 38 hertz and could not listen nothing above 16 kilohertz...it is a Philips System of sound that i already published monthes ago....now, had passed long time, i have a more exact evaluation.
And the evaluation is that i do not change a word, sound is great, nice, precise, clear and wonderfull to hear.... much better than the average quality Class A, AB amplifiers.... but now a days i can see that top quality amplifiers can reproduce a more clear treble and a more deep bass...... related mine poor home system that costed 300 dollares....or something around that.
Well, we cannot have wonderfull result with only 300 dollares, the speaker cannot be manufactured with wonderfull drivers, the enclosure cannot be golden one, the power transformer may be not so big as needed, and also have tuners and CD mechanics, and circuits for MP3 and for standard CD reproduction, logics to comunicate with computer and all stuff..... cannot be something from out space beeing so cheap and having so much things inside the package.
But despite this deceptive perception, that my class D has a very big roll of in bass range.... that perception simply disappeared when i go hearing it day by day...and resulted that i love the sound, i concluded that the low distortion, the dinamics and flat amplifier was giving me the wonderfull sonics i was perceiving, and kicking easy other more standard amplifiers (systems) i had in my home.
But finally i made the damned test...the A to B comparison testing...i was afraid of the result, as i think we adjust the sonics using our brain... i already had the suspection that i was loving that amplifier because it's clever and news technology (not so new)...i already had the idea that sound perception have something related to feelings, empathy with the designer, the how much you like the appearance, how much you trust in the money value...beeing expensive may be good...how long you listen to the amplifier...having time or not to brain adjust the whole thing or not.
In other words, to be very simple and direct...i imagine that we can apreciate some amplifier because it was made by a good friend.
I imagine that we can apreciate some amplifier because it looks good.
I can have some idea that sometimes we apreciate things because they are expensive, hard to find unit... some custom desire.
And also i can imagine that we will not like some amplifier constructed by someone you do not apreciate...a bad guy's amplifier will sound bad.
Well, all those suspections are connected to the fact that we are humans, we have feelings and we do not listen nothing with our ears...we listen with our brains, and this organ...that is US.... my brain is ME...and my feelings department have conversations with my logics department and sometimes the logic win the discussion, other times the feelings department wins the discussion...so... result is more subjective than objective.
MP3 is using some human ear characteristic, that we cannot listen a wisper in the presence of a thunder captured alive from a storm..... the wisper cannot be heard.... you can see it in some waveform...if recorded, the wisper will be there...but we cannot hear...as storm is thousand times bigger in volume, in intensity and can erase the perception or listening...so.... there are things that exist and we do not perceive...so...they do not exist!!!... and MP3 delete those details that we cannot listen, reducing some length using this method (and many others)
It was studied, and done by many people well related to Psychology, the human perception studies, define that the brain can fill gaps.... and this can explain why we can listen to a small old portable radio, with 1 inch speaker, those hard to move units...without any bass...amplifier cutted from 300 hundred hertz...and you will perceive some bass, a confusion with the drums beat or a brain composition?
Well...i was filling the gaps all those days.but when i compared my class D with others more standard amplifiers......comparing A to B....oh my God!...very deceptive..... exactly the deep low and the extreme highs were not reproduced by my class D cheap system.
Ahahahahah!.... what a shame on me!...but separated from the others i used to make the A to B comparison,...hearing in my sleeping room i use to apreciate it very much...in special when my wife goes hearing with me, in our bed.... till............... do you understand....... those human factors may influence a lot our evaluations.
Those details are the ones that make the A and AB standard amplifiers lovers, tell us that Class D is not High Fidelity..... and i can understand that some unit that cannot reproduce from 20 to 20K are considered not high fidelity... and i can accept that this kind of evaluation is not too much wrong...as we can hear from 10 Hertz to 17K easy.... also that rule is a little bit unprecise related our realistic capabilities... and depending how loud the tone is..as we have losses in the low end.
Of course i can understand that may exist many Class D that are able to reproduce 10 hertz and reach 17 kilohertz and even more, and i am evaluating something old, something cheap and something that are not the highest possible quality...but i also can understand those guys that makes some oposition to class D...based in those aspects, now a days very common, as class D is beeing manufactured in massive quantities those last years only.
I also think that analogical amplifiers will be comdemned to death in a matter of some years, but always will exist the guys that will defend their old things....because they cannot dennie themselves...as they know that technology, that was with them whole life, in all important life moments, and they felt good with those sounds...they cannot dennie that anymore..this is a self suicide..... a suicide of the love you have to your own person... send to trash those old things can be equivalent than dive themselves into the garbage can.
regards,
Carlos |
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| classd4sure |
Hi Carlos,
I agree with most of that but really if you want to impress your friends.... apples with apples?
What kind of systems do your friends put up against what I have to call your ghetto blaster.
Since you're now totally convinced of the merits of class d perhaps it's time for a more serious investment in it?
Regards,
Chris |
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| mastertech |
I think you guys are all fools
the same could be said for any class when subjectively judged
second class-d has good sound,all classes have good sound!!!!!
kanwar please, i like cheap too, if they become mainstream the big
guys will sell them too way way too cheap and you wont be able to make a cent!
i respect your opinions on class-d what you like is up to you, when i know
more about class-d i might end up like you guys, class-d guys class-d yeah!!!
cheers |
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| classd4sure |
| Calm down you're hysterical :) |
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| mastertech |
classd4sure
just kidding
if you have a schematic made up of descrete components only and you
wish to share please post it here
thanks
cheers |
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| classd4sure |
Now that's more like it!
I'll throw some links your way shortly, Just have to finish a minor repair on my homebrew unit. |
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| mastertech |
take your time classd4sure
if class-d is any good time will tell
cause class-a and b and ab have stood the test of time and arent going anywhere
just yet
Regards |
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| Workhorse |
Hi Mastertech,
You seems to be overemphasized by the merits of linear amp, thats why you dont able to give enough space to the capability of class-D amps, and the big guys you are talking about wont slash there prices as compared to us!
Lets take an example a 2400W pro-amp cost about 1400USD, but we are just giving it at about 800USD, you would say that there must be something inferior, not at all..the truth is that we use NVMOS that are much cheaper than the bipolars! but ultra reliable in every aspect.....
I am not here to market my products but only illustrated the stats associated with it....
regards,
K a n w a r |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by mastertech
...all classes have good sound!!!!! |
Sure.
There's too many factors that contribute to a good amp, in any class.
It's not just the... class. :D
It's not right to say that class-D is better, or any other.
| quote: | Originally posted by mastertech
cause class-a and b and ab have stood the test of time and arent going anywhere
just yet |
Yeah, like vinyl. :tilt: |
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| mastertech |
the one and only kanwar
are you saying that workhorse is moving to class-d amps only ,then you've
made the right decision, i think you are one of the best , you know your
market better than the big guys, good luck!
i aint moving just yet, i have to see some schematics first, to do a spice
comparison with what i know of class-a,b,ab the high cost is not an issue
to HiFi, HiFi is just that high cost and high-fidelity
carlosfm-
"yeah like vinyl"
are you saying that class-a,b,ab is going somewhere? where?, vinyl is still here
just take a look at a hifi magazine!,vinyl my friend is expensive now, you tell
me why dvd players are so cheap?,you guys dont read hifi magazines now?
cheers |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by mastertech
carlosfm-
"yeah like vinyl"
are you saying that class-a,b,ab is going somewhere? where?, vinyl is still here
just take a look at a hifi magazine!,vinyl my friend is expensive now, you tell
me why dvd players are so cheap?,you guys dont read hifi magazines now? |
Cool down, mastertech.
I love vinyl, I was born with it, grew up with it, never left it, and I listen to lots of vinyl on my main system.
Maybe I choosed the wrong 'smile'? :confused:
To answer to your question, basically electronics can be made much cheaper than good mechanics.
A good turntable and arm is a work of art.
A 'good' dvd player it just a chipset, and assembling parts from all sorts of manufacturers, copying the datasheet's circuits. And mostly a cheap transport mechanics full of cheap and fragile plastic parts.
Btw I read audio mags, I buy several every month.
They are basically bathroom reading.:clown: |
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| classd4sure |
AAAhhh....... four days without the sound of my homebrew amp..... it's just too much.
Mastertech do you only require the schematic for simulation purposes? It's pretty damned useless unless you want to build one and _hear_ it.
The simulations are respectable but far from realistic and shouldnt' be used in that form of comparison at all!
As far as where class d is going from here.... it seems silly to argue the future, but if we can agree that it at least gives a very respectable sound, then we can agree that it will take over the _mainstream_ commercial junk because it can be done much more cheaply. A cheap class d will still sound like a cheap class d and a cheap class a will.... bla bla bla.
The key word is mainstream, nothing is going to fade into existance just yet, and yeah it sure seems like the land of high end will still be most expensive.
Good stuff on the bathroom reading :)
Regards,
Chris |
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| Workhorse |
Hi Mastertech,
Dont get me wrong i dont want to say that i am the only one on the earth who want to switch to class-D in next coming years [not a cheap solution but a good solution], but in India, yes i am the only one, but not in the world..there are many such guys who have recently switched to class-d such as www.ashly.com, www.ecler.com etc..
pro-audio is not a cheap bussiness its a serious consideration involoving in terms of quality as well as reliability and it is now moving towards the HI-FI not a piece of junk sound anymore...
so please dont get me wrong...
regards,
K a n w a r:) |
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| soongsc |
The only class D amps I've lisened to are a few watts, but with these few watts they certainly produce a good sound. As with other types of amps there are designs that are not so good. So it's best to try before buy.
So I think for those whom like amps that generate heat to keep you warm, by all means use those types. If you like energy effeciency, then use class D. If you like changing with season. You're a good consumer.:D |
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| rinox |
Thanks to all to partecipate to this thread...
Carlos, you' re simply incredible :clown:
There are few news about class d expecially about tripath IC, I' ve ordered some TA 2020-020 and TA2022 cause I want to supply them with batteries, but seems that there are quite a lot differents (in sound) each other.
Need to investigate more.
Someone have tried this ICS? |
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| destroyer X |
One that use to read (alike i do) sitting over the bathroom king's trone!...ahahahaha.
And the air there is healthy for our brain...ahahahha.
Very good thread...and you my dear Gladiator, you are a very courageous man... a real warrior.
Kanwar is a wonderfull guy..hey guys, do not disturb Kanwar..he is nice.
related all the others, the funny things and the kiddings....very good to see that kind of mood.
And as Carlos said..... C'a Marche!
au revoìr.
Carlos |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | Originally posted by mastertech
cause class-a and b and ab have stood the test of time and arent going anywhere |
Meaning ?
Carlos, cut the cra-b and get your a-zz off the toilet seat ! |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by jacco vermeulen
Carlos, cut the cra-b and get your a-zz off the toilet seat ! |
Wait... not yet... I'm still reading that review. :D |
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| jacco vermeulen |
| quote: | | And as Carlos said..... C'a Marche! |
We finally know what that means ! :clown: |
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| destroyer X |
Moving...yeah!
The damn reality, we cannot dennie...we are all Snuberiziertzed!
regards
Carlos |
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| thoriated |
| quote: | "Those small japanese cars will never be accepted in US!"
"Russian guys are bad and eat childrens!"
|
They promised that CDs will give us 'perfect sound forever'.:)
I think that what often gets overlooked when evaluating digital technologies (or new audio formats in general) is how likely is it to sound lousy when it's implemented to a bottom dollar price point for the mass market. Look at MP3 - it's hardly a reflection of digital audio's capabilities in general but it's often misrepresented as being much higher quality than it is when it is actually near the bottom of the barrel in the sound quality sweepstakes for digital or analog. I might give consideration to an argument that MP3 above 128kb/s for stereo beats out those old 8 track tapes from the '60's & 70's.
I'm ok with Class D for workhorse and applications where high efficiency is paramount, but I don't see it obsoleting conventional analog for the highest sound quality. |
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| el`Ol |
If somebody would have told me a few years ago that I would sell my brit-audio combi, go to a normal electro market and buy something for 350 Euro which is just several classes better I would have called him a fool.
Thanks a lot to the TacT people for cooperating with TI and Panasonic to get something going in this price class. |
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| kartino |
Hello Chris,
I am affraid that someone will claim your discrete class D for commercial purpose. Because your schematic is complete with all aspect, startup, bootstap, gain, feedback, balanced input etc,In other word it is perfect for the tiny device.
Except for protection, of course!
I use linear AB for several years for our PA. I did not like the big heatsink and the cost of complementary pairs of output.
Now I am on proccess for discrete class D for PA up to 500W-1kW.
I agreed that for PA, yes..! Linear AB is still the leader, but soon the leader will be replaced. |
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| classd4sure |
| quote: | Originally posted by kartino
Hello Chris,
I am affraid that someone will claim your discrete class D for commercial purpose. Because your schematic is complete with all aspect, startup, bootstap, gain, feedback, balanced input etc,In other word it is perfect for the tiny device.
Except for protection, of course!
I use linear AB for several years for our PA. I did not like the big heatsink and the cost of complementary pairs of output.
Now I am on proccess for discrete class D for PA up to 500W-1kW.
I agreed that for PA, yes..! Linear AB is still the leader, but soon the leader will be replaced. |
Hi,
You might be right. I've actually gotten a few emails from some of them too.
Maybe for them it's also a learning experience and put to good use or maybe their intentions aren't that honest... they'll just have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
They always ask for more power too. I'm fairly confident they can't just take what I've provided and produce a 500W to 1000W commercial product, it would take alot more effort than that on their part, and cost them a good chunk of coin in R&D too.
You know in the end they'll opt to pay for pre built modules just like anyone else, maybe even before Philips sues them.
For PA use I'd thought class d had a strong foothold for awhile now?
Regards,
Chris |
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| ghemink |
| quote: | Originally posted by thoriated
I'm ok with Class D for workhorse and applications where high efficiency is paramount, but I don't see it obsoleting conventional analog for the highest sound quality. |
Have you ever listened to a decently implemented Class-D amp? If you have, what`s wrong with it?
Lots of people on this board do not want to go back to conventional AB amps because they (including myself) find the Class-D amps sounding superior. OK, I have to admit, I have never heard 100k$ amps in my system, maybe they would perform a bit better than my few hundred$ UcD amps, however, I strongly doubt it as they easily beat my Accuphase E407 that is now already more than a year jobless, talking about a bad investment.
Best regards
Gertjan |
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| Bgt |
Gertjan,
Here the same, bought a Nad C272+C162 in jan.2005 and I think it was febr. or March when I bought the UCD's. @$#$#@$ how I regretted the purchase of the Nad's which was over a 1000 euro's.
Well, that's a bit the kick D class gives. Too bad, but ah well...that's progress, innovation. And the Nads are jobless here too. Selling them won't be satisfactory because the drop in value. |
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| sx881663 |
Guys I can easily top that! How would you feel if the amp that was beat out was your own design that had been highly tweaked and compared very favorably to amps costing 10's of thousands of dollars? This hurt! Hats off to Bruno for a magnificent design!!
Roger |
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| Nuuk |
Perhaps this thread was really started to help a satisfied class-D user get rid of his unwanted analogue amplifiers without losing too much money! :rolleyes:
In fact, we should all run down these new amps while we sell our other stuff off on Ebay! :D |
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| el`Ol |
| I sold my ten years old NAD/AMC combi for almost exactly the money I spent for the Panasonics. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bgt
Here the same, bought a Nad C272+C162 in jan.2005 and I think it was febr. or March when I bought the UCD's. @$#$#@$ how I regretted the purchase of the Nad's which was over a 1000 euro's. |
It is very easy to make much better than those Nad pre and power amps (I know them).
Class D or not, it's easy as pie.
1000€ doesn't shock me at all.
I had a Krell KAV-300iL (~6000€ when new) at home and it was much inferior to my LM3886 amp and AD815 pre. |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | | KAV-300iL (~6000€ when new) |
You're joking:bigeyes: |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bgt
You're joking:bigeyes: |
No, it's not a joke.
Just because it has a 'Krell' stamp on it and costs $$$$ doesn't mean it has to be good, does it?
Or my standards are too high, or there is lots of expen$ive junk on the market. |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | | there is lots of expen$ive junk on the market |
True. High standards is why we're here for. |
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| carlosfm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Bgt
True. High standards is why we're here for. |
That's right. ;) |
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| el`Ol |
| I see no reason why a 1000W amp with dozens of output transistors and long signal ways should keep up with a gainclone at 10W output. |
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| soongsc |
| quote: | Originally posted by el`Ol
I see no reason why a 1000W amp with dozens of output transistors and long signal ways should keep up with a gainclone at 10W output. |
Energy is energy, you don't get more out than you input. With power amps you are just implementing a method to control electrical power from the wall to make it become something like a volatage controlled voltage source. If you don't need so much acoustic energy, more capability will not seem different because you will not use it. |
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| sx881663 |
| quote: | Originally posted by soongsc
Energy is energy, you don't get more out than you input. With power amps you are just implementing a method to control electrical power from the wall to make it become something like a volatage controlled voltage source. If you don't need so much acoustic energy, more capability will not seem different because you will not use it. |
Yes this is true except several other factors come into play like dynamic compression and larger signal linearity. All things being equal more power will indeed sound better for these reasons. Even at low volumes the sound will be more natural and open with the sense of effortlessness like what the UcD amps are so good at. This may be totally overlooked till the more powerful amp is put into the system. There is also the source impedance issue at work here reflected through the amp and into its power supply. This gives us a sense of the amp having more control.
Roger |
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| T11 |
Hi all.
I was very undecided about posting this as I might get not well understood. This is not a post about which of the switch D class amps is best sounding or anything else. This is about you helping judge me what is best FOR ME, my application and my knowledge of DIY.
I recently finished to build an tractrix 150Hz front horn for my tweaked Fostex 206E. I aslo cleaned up my system - I do not have anything. I am building from scratch but did have modified Musical Fidelity A1 and also tweaked CD57 MKII from Marantz. I want to do justice to my new speakers - they are too revealing and huge sounding to be connected to that humble system.
My main objective is to build the system for music. Not hi-fi tweaking-all-time-purpose but me and music. I want to enjoy it for some years and expand the CD collection.
I started to look for simple valve amp kits but as before I did not go that way. It seems just to demanding - I would start experimenting with valves and cables and it runs too hot also. The same goes for A class - must say that A1 always if not compared to other A class amp sounded more unboxy and musical then all commercial AB amps up to 700$. That is what kept me keepin´ it. But in this research for the new I found SI T-amp. Raving about this people that had it forgot about what all this is. I wanted a bigger picture but got messed up. I dug deeper and found out some other kit modules out there. I already had my Visa card next to me to buy particulary easy to assemble kit with PS and all but then I found this page. That was 5 days ago and I read almost all your threads about D calss amps but... I was devastated because could not understand too many things. What bothered me is that I am still used to thinking that 20W is enough as my horns are approx. 98dB of sensitivity and 105W pch from 180 is !!!!!!! for me. And I just wanted to end up with this hi-fi fewer and enjoy the music - now whole new area of amps opened up. It seems that everything is around - with cheap amps from 41Hz and DIYParadise (charlize) alike the noise would be too high for horns but with Hypex ucd180 the power seems unreasonable wates and too high but the noise level is better. Still how much of the volume pot is going to be used with ucd180? So here they go:
-for the needed power level (say 25W pch is enough) all of the cheaper amps such as amp3 and Charlize are Ok but what about the background noise level?
-as far I did not hear anything about music/emotional impact of any of the amp; it seems that just everybody is concerned with techicalities and hi-fi terms such as width and depth of soundstage, silky highs and fluid mids...
-and yes I know this is subjective but everything you say always will be and people like more to hear what other are feeling about smth especially if they could not feel, hear or see them (that is what web is all about anyway, if emotional element is substracted from the measurements then they serve more for the tool and machine interaction then us)
-I do not have a clue engineering so messing a lot around the amp is not my purpose - and I decided not to go that way remember (that excludes tweaking as intuition is still the best tool and fastets way to make your own taste jumping out of joy)
-my budget for the amp is limited to 400€ (600 are going to CD player)
uf, I now, I now, nothing new, maybe this post is so I can start a conversation...
do not get me wrong, I had to post this threa, maybe in some days on, I will exactly know what I have to do
t11
regarding Ucd180: this question is probably a bit off; is it possible to use UcD180 as a single modul operating in stereo mode or is dual mono a must? |
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| Bgt |
T11, the UCD180 would be enough for your needs. A very "cool"/cool amp. The Amp 1B is also OK but has a bit more noise and the input stage is not as nice as the UCD's. For me they(UCD's) are the easiest to use/build. Very relaxed power amps.
The units can do only 1 channel per module. |
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| Jaka Racman |
Hi T11,
maybe this will help you decide. UcD modules are also available localy. Here is the link . I have found the link after I bought my UcD400 modules, so I do not know quality of the supplier. But maybe you can start with one module, and if you like it buy another one. This way you can avoid double transportation expenses. Maybe you can even get unit on loan.
Technically, UcD180 is mono module, but two modules can share the same power supply.
Best regards,
Jaka Racman |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
In search of the oasis I see :) Cool.
You could likely make use of some sort of attenuator for the tweeter like a good quality pot, but to be honest, I'm not sure you'd get the full experience of the dynamics. I doubt it will be a problem with noise as well if that's what your conern there was.
Musical/emotion.... in even your basic class d you can expect a wide dynamic range, superb detail and clarity, a very open with all kinds of air, effortless, and I find enjoyable sound.
With the UCD you can expect a new level of transparancy, very natural/real sound, the kind of thing that takes very little effort to transport you there. So whatever emotion you'd expect to have from being there when it was recorded depending on what you like listening to.
400E is a slim yet possibly reasonable budjet. You could get your power supply direct from Hypex and not have to fool around, probably a great hassle free way to get you in under or at least very near to your goal.
It seems you're worried about it being too loud. I don't think you'll find the caliber of this clean power to be very "loud" and I'd bet you'll be turning it up more than ever before.
You shouldn't be put off either by all the tweaking posts you've seen for the module... it's not at all necessary.
Regards,
Chris |
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| DJNUBZ |
It seems that everyone here agrees that class D amps can be considered hifi. I don't disagree with this. What I want to know is at what level they compare? Are these class D on the level of denon, pioneer, and sony? Or are they on the level of Pass Labs, Cary, and Mark Levinson?
If class D can compete with products like the Pass Labs Aleph series and the XA160 then I think we are on the eve of a paradigm shift. Why spend $18k on the xa160 when you can have a better sound for around $1K. I just don't think that class D has acheived a level of SQ that compares to something like the xa160.....YET. |
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| sx881663 |
Comparing the UcD in it's dressed out configuration with to all the other amps cited is totally unfair! That is unfair to them, if I was selling a multi thousand dollar amp I sure wouldn’t want it compared to the UcD. I don’t know if you have read any of the class D reviews but they are as a class soundly kicking some sacred cows! My own A/B design had no trouble stepping on some of these, can’t say all as I never heard them all. Then along comes the UcD and takes me to whole other level of involvement, enjoyment and just plain more information. Paradigm shift? You bet! A true epiphany!
Roger |
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| theAnonymous1 |
In regards to what T11 posted, I would not recommend an amp such as the AMP1-B for such high efficiency speakers.
I have finished two AMP1-B boards and they sound amazing, but the noise floor would be unacceptable in your case. I originally bought the boards to bi-amp a pair of yet to be built line arrays, but I'm not so sure that will be such a good idea now. Its a pitty too, as I already have all the drivers for the arrays. They would be 107db/w when completed and I think the hiss from the AMP1-B would be unbearable.
I would like to know the cause of the hiss, is it a flaw in the circuit or the Tripath IC itself? |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | | I would like to know the cause of the hiss, is it a flaw in the circuit or the Tripath IC itself? |
Mine has noise on switch on but it disappears after 5 minutes. Still could not find the cause of that |
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| T11 |
Very very kind of you all.
It is actally a breaking point for me right now. I was seriously thinking to go and build me an A class amp but in the same time something had me pushing toward enjoy of musical pleasure and giving myself totally to art leaving the growth for DIY behind. Things will get more nad more sofisticated in the future and I decided to leave this part to people that are better equiped and prepared for it. But will always enjoy their fruits of work and stand behind their developments. Yours actually. The forums as you see are the backup brains for all new born developers.
thank you all again
p.s.
the problem with the switch on for the tripath IC has been issued on the forum somewhere. I know, I have been browsing all the pages for 4 days for about 4-6h per day and there is also a solution to these but cannot remember what kind of...(the tripath not my sore eyes...). |
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| theAnonymous1 |
| quote: | | Mine has noise on switch on but it disappears after 5 minutes. Still could not find the cause of that |
Mine have been on for about 2 weeks straight and the hiss isn't going anywhere :( . Would it help any to lower the gain of the amp and use an active pre? I'm using a passive pre at the moment. Input gain is set to unity. |
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| matjans |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJNUBZ
I just don't think that class D has acheived a level of SQ that compares to something like the xa160.....YET. |
Do you only think so or have you compared them ? |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | | I'm using a passive pre at the moment |
Me too, I am completely off of active preamps. I wil try this week to see what causes my hiss to completely disappear. Have to see on the scope what happens. But time........ I wish I had more.
There is so much to do nowadays, still have to do my DDDAC1543.........well, later. Plastic money makes everything so easy to obtain.............arrg.:bawling: |
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| ghemink |
| quote: | Originally posted by sx881663
Comparing the UcD in it's dressed out configuration with to all the other amps cited is totally unfair! That is unfair to them, if I was selling a multi thousand dollar amp I sure wouldn’t want it compared to the UcD. I don’t know if you have read any of the class D reviews but they are as a class soundly kicking some sacred cows! My own A/B design had no trouble stepping on some of these, can’t say all as I never heard them all. Then along comes the UcD and takes me to whole other level of involvement, enjoyment and just plain more information. Paradigm shift? You bet! A true epiphany!
Roger |
Fully agree, Class-D is for real and not just somethig that sounds good for the money. It sounds good compared to anything. At least it easily blew away my Accuphase as I have said many/many times onmany of the threads out here. Try it and judge for yourself, it does not takea huge investment to try them.
Best regards
Gertjan |
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| ghemink |
| quote: | Originally posted by T11
Hi all.
I was very undecided about posting this as I might get not well understood. This is not a post about which of the switch D class amps is best sounding or anything else. This is about you helping judge me what is best FOR ME, my application and my knowledge of DIY.
I recently finished to build an tractrix 150Hz front horn for my tweaked Fostex 206E. I aslo cleaned up my system - I do not have anything. I am building from scratch but did have modified Musical Fidelity A1 and also tweaked CD57 MKII from Marantz. I want to do justice to my new speakers - they are too revealing and huge sounding to be connected to that humble system.
My main objective is to build the system for music. Not hi-fi tweaking-all-time-purpose but me and music. I want to enjoy it for some years and expand the CD collection.
I started to look for simple valve amp kits but as before I did not go that way. It seems just to demanding - I would start experimenting with valves and cables and it runs too hot also. The same goes for A class - must say that A1 always if not compared to other A class amp sounded more unboxy and musical then all commercial AB amps up to 700$. That is what kept me keepin´ it. But in this research for the new I found SI T-amp. Raving about this people that had it forgot about what all this is. I wanted a bigger picture but got messed up. I dug deeper and found out some other kit modules out there. I already had my Visa card next to me to buy particulary easy to assemble kit with PS and all but then I found this page. That was 5 days ago and I read almost all your threads about D calss amps but... I was devastated because could not understand too many things. What bothered me is that I am still used to thinking that 20W is enough as my horns are approx. 98dB of sensitivity and 105W pch from 180 is !!!!!!! for me. And I just wanted to end up with this hi-fi fewer and enjoy the music - now whole new area of amps opened up. It seems that everything is around - with cheap amps from 41Hz and DIYParadise (charlize) alike the noise would be too high for horns but with Hypex ucd180 the power seems unreasonable wates and too high but the noise level is better. Still how much of the volume pot is going to be used with ucd180? So here they go:
-for the needed power level (say 25W pch is enough) all of the cheaper amps such as amp3 and Charlize are Ok but what about the background noise level?
-as far I did not hear anything about music/emotional impact of any of the amp; it seems that just everybody is concerned with techicalities and hi-fi terms such as width and depth of soundstage, silky highs and fluid mids...
-and yes I know this is subjective but everything you say always will be and people like more to hear what other are feeling about smth especially if they could not feel, hear or see them (that is what web is all about anyway, if emotional element is substracted from the measurements then they serve more for the tool and machine interaction then us)
-I do not have a clue engineering so messing a lot around the amp is not my purpose - and I decided not to go that way remember (that excludes tweaking as intuition is still the best tool and fastets way to make your own taste jumping out of joy)
-my budget for the amp is limited to 400€ (600 are going to CD player)
uf, I now, I now, nothing new, maybe this post is so I can start a conversation...
do not get me wrong, I had to post this threa, maybe in some days on, I will exactly know what I have to do
t11
regarding Ucd180: this question is probably a bit off; is it possible to use UcD180 as a single modul operating in stereo mode or is dual mono a must? |
With that high efficiency you need a very low noise amp. UcD has the lowest noise level that I have heard. I have a Tripath based amp (Marantz) that has a far higher noise level, was already unasbale for my tweeters with 90-92dB efficiency, so let alone for your speakers. I had an older version ZAPpulse that was similar in noise as the Marantz Tripath. There are newer low noise version of the ZAPpulse but don't know how low noise they are and their input impedance maybe too low for some applications. In your case I think the safest bet is UcD180 and get all the other parts such as supplies etc also for hypex as then you have a complete system with DC protection, pop-free turn on and off etc.
Best regards
Gertjan |
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| el`Ol |
| I compared a Panasonic with a Tripath amp on 4Ohm 96dB and 8Ohm 93dB. I didn`t hear noise floor with the Tripath amp on 4Ohm 96dB, but a clearly reduced dynamic Range. My conclusion is that the reflectory grip for ultra high sensitivity speakers is false for the Tripath amps. I didn`t find much info on the UCD amps on their homepage, but it seems that they have a constant rail voltage that is much higher than that of the Tripaths. However, everybody who listened to them is enthousiastic. How do they achieve this enormous dynamic range? |
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| Bgt |
| quote: | | the problem with the switch on for the tripath IC has been issued on the forum somewhere. |
I think it was for Amp3 where there was a hiss problem due to an undeliverd cap. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| quote: | Originally posted by matjans
Do you only think so or have you compared them ? |
The ones I have compared largely have been car amps. I have compared some home amps but it has been a few years so I wouldn't use that as an example. I have used a few class D amps in car envrionments and have found there is a large difference between a regular one and a great one. I just would like to see some of the people on this site post some comparative analasis of their class D amps when put against what I beleive is generally considered (at least I consider) the highest of the high end amps available. I think that at some point class D amps will compare to these usualy large class A amps but I am not sure that they are there yet. I would like this to happen though because that would mean that the truly super high end would become something much more affordable. |
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| classd4sure |
Class D in car audio today:
The truth is they're still using last centuries technology and will likely continue to do so. It's therefore not at all a good basis for making such a comparison.... they're pretty well still only good for sub amps. |
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| DJNUBZ |
| Although many of the lower end companies who use class D amps are using quite old designs I don't belive the higher end companies such as JL are using old designs. |
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| classd4sure |
Hi,
I will be the first to admit I'm not fully up to speed on car audio.
However you've volunteered JL as a possibly good brand.... and so I'll use them to make my point.
I took a quick look at their web page.
I've seen in one class .... slash amps I think.. they offered two main types. "Subwoofer" and "full range".
I could look it up for a bit of a laugh:
High-Damping Class D Circuit with discrete control circuitry (U.S. Patent #6,441,685)
But it is already labelled as being for sub woofer use.
Now click on their "full range" amp in the very same "slash" category..... ooops.. they changed it to class A/B???
Don't let them fool ya, they're using the 10 cent circuits of yesteryear, and this is on what they're calling their flagship line.
I've noticed the very same thing with their E class.
Thanks for bringing up JL it was an excellent example to make my point with. |
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| tschanrm |
Speaking of car audio, has anybody tried out panasonic's newer high-end decks? The top three models - CQ-C9901U, 9801,9701 - all use a "digital" amp. They are shown here:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...000000000005702
I wonder which technology they use in these decks, and how they sound?
Edit: Thats interesting, these decks use tripath chips, as told by Crutchfield:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-UHYdaT...&I=133C9801#Tab
Now to find out which chip they use.......
My guess is the TAA4100(A) chip, a 4x62 watts chip that can operate at 14.4v, and was designed for automotive head units. |
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| el`Ol |
| Probably the Panasonics use TI chips, like their home products. I looked at the TI website, there is a TAS chip with 70W. |
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| Lars Clausen |
In my opinion, having heard something from the new generation of Class D emerging this fall, i would say that Class A and Class A/B is now largely obsolete! Or completely obsolete actually. The last small fallbacks on Class D is now overcome, and a thing of the past. And in any aspect Class D will be better that even the best Class A or A/B amplifiers. Not in years, but in .. months!
Just to make clear, i am not talking about those products that were on sale 1-2 years ago or even now, i am talking about the next generation, coming on sale this winter and on. |
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| Lars Clausen |
| Charles: Sorry, no .. :whazzat: |
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| phase_accurate |
So where and what did you actually hear ? Or is it a secret ?
Regards
Charles |
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| Lars Clausen |
ohh, i see. Well i don't believe that an AES event is where you will hear the best new stuff first. I don't think anyone would reveal their best secrets to the industry competition, before releasing it to the market. But that's just my own judgement, it may be wrong.
Did you go there? |
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| phase_accurate |
No I didn't, although I think it would have been very interesting. Going to these conventions is quite expensive IMO.
Regards
Charles |
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| Jan-Peter |
We have been there, it's was indeed quite interesting. Altough not all papers was at a very high academical level. Anyhow it was very interesting to speak a lot of people behind the Class-D companies.
And it was funny to see that a lot of companies were shocked about the performance of the UcD Class-D feedback technology.....:D
Regards,
Jan-Peter |
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| Lars Clausen |
| Charles: So right! And from some of the pre published papers, i would not say that it's all that interesting. Some of the stuff presented seems to be student grade. Which is OK, but is it worth spending a big lump of cash and a good solid weekend on? I think not. |
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| Lars Clausen |
| quote: | | And it was funny to see that a lot of companies were shocked about the performance of the UcD Class-D feedback technology..... |
Well they will probably be even more shocked when they will find that it's possible to get even better performance without UcD technology .. he he
Sorry .. I just couldn't resist that one ... (Since i'm now no longer your commercial competitor) |
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| DJNUBZ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lars Clausen
In my opinion, having heard something from the new generation of Class D emerging this fall, i would say that Class A and Class A/B is now largely obsolete! Or completely obsolete actually. The last small fallbacks on Class D is now overcome, and a thing of the past. And in any aspect Class D will be better that even the best Class A or A/B amplifiers. Not in years, but in .. months!
Just to make clear, i am not talking about those products that were on sale 1-2 years ago or even now, i am talking about the next generation, coming on sale this winter and on. |
Do you have an idea on where we should be looking for these new amps and what they may cost? |
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| Lars Clausen |
| DJNUBZ: Of course i can not say this specifically. |
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| DJNUBZ |
Can't blame me for trying:clown:
*sarcasm*I thought class D already sounded like high end audiophile amps. Are you now telling me that they don't but they might by the time winter comes?
I think that it is very obvious that class D is still in it's baby stages and has a lot more potential to be realized. I don't know how class D could compare to something like the pass labs XA160 in it's current stage but I feel it will get there in the next three to five years (optimisticly). |
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| phase_accurate |
| quote: | | three to five years |
That sounds rather PESSIMISTICAL IMO ! ;)
Regards
Charles |
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