| JohnnyJ |
Hello Everyone :)
I have been thinking about what I want to do in terms of audio in my bedroom, and I decided that I will try this. I know it is a bit insane but it has been done before, and this is exactly what I want to do.
Okay so I found this other posting board (forum), and a user posted the following:
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I went out and grabbed 3 lead acid car batteries from a junk yard for $5 each. They all worked enough to hold a charge and start a car.
I checked the water and electrolytes in the batteries and made sure they were up to par.
Went to a truck (big rig) supply store and bought heavy guage wire and battery terminals. They are MUCH cheaper here than at an car audio store. Compare 3 or 4 dollars to 35 or 40 for wire. I also picked up a 12 volt battery charger that had settings for "trickle" 3amp 5amp and 10amp. Total spent so far was around $65.
Set all 3 batteries on a piece of wood. Avoid concrete or carpet. Concrete is bad for the battery and carpet isn't good if the battery leaks.
Wire all 3 together in parrallel. That's positive to positive to positive to amp positive and with another (different) wire hook negative to negative to negative to negative of the amp. Now hook the charger to one of the batteries.
Use a small piece of wire to connect your "remote" lead on the amp to the positive of the batteries and your amp should start right up. Leave the changer in the trickle mode at all times and you should be able to jam for hours on end without pulling the batteries too low. When you are not using the amp remove the "remote" wire and they charge back up.
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...now, I know that it seems like a big hassle etc, but I really want to do this and need some help. If I did the same this guy did, except buy brand NEW equipment, 3 car batteries (12volt +), a battery charger [just plugged in at an ordinary house wall plug outlet], and the necessary wires/leads - would it actually work?
I have a Pioneer TS-W5000SPL Subwoofer, a Pioneer PRS-D5000SPL Amplifier and a SPL Optimized Ported Enclosure Subwoofer Box. I need to purchase: home studio speakers (x2), a car head unit and the rest of the necessary equipment to make this work. Whatever other equipment I need, please let me know.
The subwoofer is EXTREMELY powerful at 5000watt/2000rms, and the amplifier can handle a maximum of 3000watt/1500rms. This is a concern to me because I don't know whether those 3 car batteries will be feeding this amplifier/subwoofer enough power (or whatever you want to call it in the world of physics, amps?) in order to reach it's full potential. I don't want to limit my setup to perform under it's full capabilities, whether it be because of the car batteries, or whichever piece of equipment - it would suck.
Full specifications on the subwoofer and amplifier can be found here: Amplifier (Pioneer PRS-D5000SPL) and here: Subwoofer (Pioneer TS-W5000SPL)
Please give your constructive thoughts and suggestions/input, that is what I am looking for.
Thank you very much in advance,
Johnny |
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| Tweeker |
Stiffening capacitor(s) might be a good idea. Seen 1 Farad per 1,000 watts amp recommended by a few places (that sell them mind you). 20V+ rating is advisable. They would supply the peaks that your batteries couldnt.
I dont see why it wouldnt work.
A constant voltage/potential welder with 14VDC setting. It would laugh in your amps general direction. :att'n: :hot: :hot: :hot: :hot: :bigeyes: ;)
Basic Car Audio Electronics article on stiffening capacitors. |
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| JohnnyJ |
I am confused.
I need some equipment that will result in 6.5volts [maximum, and preferably] at 560amps [maximum current draw] DC input, from a standard AC house electriciy outlet. I don't have a fortune to blow in terms of cash either, the cheapest solution that produce those output results is exactly what I'm after..I just need to know what that equipment IS and how it will function!
Please help me I am getting extremely frustrated...I've been working on this for hours per day for the last week-WITH NO SOLUTION!
All help VERY much appreciated, thanks. |
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| Tweeker |
Er why do you need 560 amps of 6.5V? Not sure what an ordinary household outlet is in Australia, but thats 3,640 watts. With an 85% efficient converter, which is pretty good, that would be ~4280 watts and probably more VA. It would pull 19+ amps at 230V.
If your using batteries and capacitors you dont need to supply peak power from the outlet and that helps alot. I assume average consumption isnt 3kW+?
Also, do you mean a supply of +/- 6.5V? |
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| zagisrule! |
Why bother getting a car head unit to power your home speakers? I would assume for price reasons? Because you would get much better audio and power output from a home receiver (assuming you were not going to amplify the speakers) than you would from a car head unit. But of course, you will pay for it probably $400 or so for a CD player and receiver. If you want to really do it on a budget (and still come out better than a car head unit) I would get a cheap DVD player and a decent receiver for a total of maybe $200. You should still be able to use pre-outs on the home receiver to send signal to your sub amp.
You will also encounter another issue when you get the sub and it's enclosure inside. The boxes and the subs themselves are usually designed for a constricted volume environment in which they must produce the maximum SPL (especially on SPL equipment :) ). I would be willing to bet that once you are inside the house with that equipment, you will find it not even as loud as a simple small powered sub costing a couple hundred bucks. I have heard of people getting around this fact by installing the sub under a bed or in a closet to simulate the limited volume of a car's usable acoustic enviroment. But if you do that, rattles, size constraints, and other issues will present themselves.
I am confused as to why you need a 6V supply, all the consumer car audio stuff I have worked with needs 10-16V. I would guess that you just forgot the "1" before your 6 in your post, and you want 16V at a couple hundred amps. This is easily doable in terms of a linear power supply with or without regulation (if you can supply enough AC). The simplest thing to do is aquire a large tranformer with secondaries that when rectified will produce your desired voltage. But there we run into problems. Most common (read relativly inexpensive) toroids are up to 1500VA or so, equating to roughly 100A usable at 15V. Because I know for a fact that with normal music (not just bass sines) and listening levels and a sub enclosure that is anywhere close to optimum, you will not be coming close to 500A like you said. Another issue you will encounter is that of rectifying the output of the toroid at 100A+. It will be fairly simple because of the low frequencies involved, but you will likely still need to parallel diodes. The most daunting of all issues is getting that amount of power from a "standard" outlet. The Sorensen supplies we are using at work (1750W units if I remeber correctly) require a 20A outlet to be safe, and they are incredibly efficient switching units. You would be asking for a fire or popped breaker to plug the supply I describe above into a "standard" 10A outlet.
In the end, a standalone battery and a dedicated charger are the only economical solution. However, I will say, that it is a terrible idea to take 3 different old batteries and parallel them, that is a more logical approach than designing and constructing a line-based supply. I would use only one battery in your shoes though...too much possibility of mismatch over time with this sort of thing.
Looking at the specs on the amp, it has a max current draw of 70A (note here on a different note that it is not possible to obtain 1100W of continuous output at 14V with that spec) then we can assume at 2 ohm load (your sub with parallel voice coils) then say a max current of 150A. You don't need 500A or more if all you are powering is your sub amp off 12V.
Hope this helps a bit.
-Matt |
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| Tweeker |
| That was max current draw at 4ohm, his speaker is 2ohm. |
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| Eva |
That Pioneer gear is almost worthless, it's not worth the effort at all, and those power numbers are just car-audio ratings (ie: outrageous, not real).
If you want something really loud in your room, just buy some second hand PA gear (hey, it's not so crazy an idea, I enjoy a DIY three way all-horn-loaded system with a 10" midrange and a bass horn bigger than a washing machine in mine). |
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| Tweeker |
| I think those rating are real, but bear in mind its spl comp gear, its only meant to run 30 seconds at a time, overheating is possible beyond that and they dont care a lick about distortion. Also fs is 32hz. |
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| Eva |
It's more like 3 seconds the time required to win an SPL contest, and blowing the entire equipmpent is allowed. It's a crazy world.
Even Cerwin Wegas and things like that are far overrated in comparison with products of other markets. I have two blown Stroker 12" here for reconing and their voice coils are similar to the ones you'll find in PA drivers rated at 400Wrms, altough these were rated at 1000Wrms. However, these voice coils didn't even had enough time to heat up and burn because the drivers are so badly designed and glued that the voice coil former broke and split from the cone and the inner spider because the materials and junctions were just not capable of whitstanding the required forces. I'm still trying to figure out how to glue the replacement cone, spider and voice coil set in a more reliable way (spiders and epoxy don't cope well). |
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| JohnnyJ |
No, it's voltage input is a maximum of 6.5v (it's a class D specifically for SPL designed amplifier). Unless I'm reading or interpreting the specifications wrong, I understand that the maximum voltage input is 6.5v. Some notes about some posts:
The amplifier can pump 1500RMS continuous @ 2Ohm, with a maximum of 3000watts. The sub gives out 2000rms continuous at 2Ohm, maximum 5000watts. I'm no audio EXPERT, but putting basic physics formulas into play with those amp readings, and the way that I interpret those specs, that's 70amps per 4Ohms, 70x4 = 280, times that by 2 for a 2Ohm reading and you get 560amps @ 2Ohm, which is the same reading I got from using various current calculators from sites such as bcae1.com. Unless that reading means 70amps AT 4Ohm (and not PER 4Ohm) that would mean that it would need 140amps at 2Ohm, plus you want some leverage seeing as it's minimum 80% efficient, so add an extra 20% onto that figure and you get 168amps. However I think that I was corrent in the frist instance - that it needs about 560amps at 6.5v to power it to it's full potential. I might be wrong, but I am PRETTY sure.
zagisrule! > Remember, I need that current at 6.5v DC.. not AC... Okay so = if I bought a battery charger that charge the batteries at 6V, and I bought a Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Valve Regulated Cyclic battery at 12V and 28Ah, will that mean that if I connect them in series that I will be getting 6V output seeing as I'm charging the battery at 6V? Also, I could buy 3 or more of them even so that it is more stable, but I'm not sure about how I would connect/wire all those up together to give 6V output. 28Ah means that it can supply 28amps for an hour, 56amps for 30mins, 112amps for 15mins... skip through to 560amps for 3 minutes. That's right is it not? So if I got 3 of those batteries (all brand new) and wired them up in parallel, being charged at 6volts... that should work pretty well. Except, how do I get the OUTPUT from those batteries to be 6v? Will the output be 6v seeing as they are being CHARGED at that voltage, or will they still give a 12v output?
Thanks so much in advance!! I'm getting closer to a solution. |
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| Perry Babin |
I think there is some confusion about the input voltage of 6.5v. That's the preamp level signal and it's simply the maximum that the amp can handle.
You need a 12-14 volt power supply.
If the amp can produce 2000 watts, you'll need ~185 amps of current at ~13.5 volts. If you use a battery with a charger, you won't be able to keep it at 13.5 volts. At lower voltage, you'll need even more current to reach full power. Remember that standard, liquid electrolyte batteries produce flammable/explosive gasses when being charged and should not be used indoors. 'Gel-cell' batteries are safer but expensive.
You really need to find a switching power supply for this. You can likely find some that were pulled from older mainframe computers. They are 5v each and you can wire them in series. I've purchased some that are capable of producing 125 amps continuously. There are some that can produce 200 amps. Keep in mind that this is not an inexpensive option but it will be safe and will do what you want to do. Please note that this cannot be done with ATX type power supplies because their grounds are tied to the AC mains ground.
Note: The sub doesn't 'give out' 2000 watts. It can handle/dissipate 2000 watts of power. |
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| Eva |
6.5V is the maximum input signal level, not the power supply voltage :D
ROFL! |
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| JohnnyJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tweeker
Er why do you need 560 amps of 6.5V? Not sure what an ordinary household outlet is in Australia, but thats 3,640 watts. With an 85% efficient converter, which is pretty good, that would be ~4280 watts and probably more VA. It would pull 19+ amps at 230V.
If your using batteries and capacitors you dont need to supply peak power from the outlet and that helps alot. I assume average consumption isnt 3kW+?
Also, do you mean a supply of +/- 6.5V? |
Yes that is correct, those specifications are actually UNDER RATED from it's actual performance, it produces just over 2000RMS continuously at 2Ohm when calculated technically - in the world of physics. That equals to SOMETHING like 3800watts max (can't remember the exact figure since it was about a week ago that I last calculated it).
I THINK I just realized something that I didn't know before, that this: Input Level Control Hi-Volt (200mV ~ 6.5v) means that it can handle at maximum 6.5V LESS or 6.5V MORE than it's TARGET (or most efficient) voltage. IS THAT RIGHT? Or can it not handle more than 6.5V input? It is a "PWM Regulated MOSFET Power Supply". As far as I understand that regulates the INCOMING voltage so that it reaches the "wanted" voltage when it gets to the part of the amplifier where it starts "amplifying" or whatever. If I grasped this correctly then this means I can use a 12v power supply?
As I am typing this I am reading 2 replies to me previous post, and realized that what I was just busy typing is correct. Man I feel somewhat better now! :D Much better in fact.
OKAY, so I can just use 3 of those batteries then, which will provide enough juice(in watts, voltage and current) to power this amplifier to it's full potential? |
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| Perry Babin |
The RMS continuous power ratings are the only useful power ratings. Virtually anything that states power as 'maximum' power can be dismissed as garbage.
The 6.5 volts is the signal from the head unit and has nothing to do with power supply voltage. Depending on the gain setting, the amplifier can be pushed to full power with 200mv (0.2 v) or 6.5v.
The PWM regulation regulates rail voltage inside the amplifier. It allows the amplifier to have the same rail voltage regardless of the battery voltage (within reason). |
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| JohnnyJ |
Okay.. so can I use 15v input? I am asking because I am thinking of buying 3 ATX PSU's and running them at 5V each. About your comment earlier about not being able to use ATX PSU's for this use, you actually can. All you have to do is connect the green wire (power on) to any black wire (ground). You can just cut them and permanently wire them together. Once they are shorted the power supply runs at all times. Which means you can shut them ON/OFF by the wall switch. You may have known this and not suggested it because that's not it's INTENDED use, but if you didn't then there it is :)
ALSO: Can I use 10V input? Or does it have to be over 12V?
Thanks for your help so far mate, helping me lots. |
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| Perry Babin |
You cannot use ATX supplies in series because each ground is connected to the mains earth ground. If you connect them in series, you will be shorting the output to ground. You cannot lift the grounds for reasons of safety.
If you could find some of the switching supplies I described, you would adjust them to something near 13.8 volts. Each supply would be set to ~4.6 volts.
You may be able to run that amp at 15 volts. Some amps have high voltage shutdown and 15 volts would be near the set-point for some amps to shut down.
I doubt that the amp would run at 10 volts. Many amps require at least 10.5 volts. |
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| JohnnyJ |
| Alright, well I don't know where to get NON-ATX PSUs from so I haven't got anything to work with. Where can I buy NEW and decent PSUs from that will supply me with the appropraite current/voltage/watts I need? |
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| JohnnyJ |
| What are the PSUs called that you are talking about? Are they called "AT"? |
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| zagisrule! |
I suggest you might re-read my original post.
I described a DC power supply (not AC - rectification means we are changing AC to DC).
Tweaker you will also notice if you read the bottom of my first post I DID post estimated current draw for a 2-ohm load at 150A.
What is this about running 5V PSU's in series? If you are going to pay for three supplies of that current rating, might as well just buy a real 12V supply. The normal PC powersupplies are good for 10-20A at 5V, nowhere near your "560A" you claim to need. You calculations for the figure are incorrect...there is no need to multiply the number by 4 for the current with 4 ohms...70A into 4 ohms, and double that for a rough estimate at 2 ohms...150A is overkill but that is fine.
The other thing I don't think you will realize is that this power needs to come from somewhere! It is not safe to just plug a 1.5kW supply into the wall and expect everything to be fine and dandy.
Parallelling many batteries is not safe, because as time goes on, one of them will weaken and they will all fail and you will be left with nothing.
You might try reading the manual to understand current and supply requirments.
-Matt |
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| JohnnyJ |
zagisrule! > I confused the voltage input of my amplifier with another rating, that is why I thought I needed a 6.5vdc supply. I got that cleared up and I am now just looking for a normal power supply to power an amp like a car battery would, between 12-14V. That's why I 'claimed' I needed that sort of current.
I'm not an audio expert - I stress that point AGAIN. Ok, a Switch Mode 12VDC power supply that can supply me with 300amps continuous, where on earth do I find that and how much would that cost me?
Thanks again!! |
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| Perry Babin |
This is the type of supply I use:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Boschert-Switch...6QQcmdZViewItem
It's very difficult to find a used 100+ amp 12 volt supply. It's relatively easy to find the 5 volt versions. I have 2 sets of the 5x3 supplies and they work fine. New supplies that can supply more than 100 amps at 12+ volts are going to cost $1K+. The 5v supplies are relatively inexpensive. Of course, if you can find a single 12 volt supply that can deliver the required current for a reasonable price, that would be the best option. |
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| JohnnyJ |
Instead of me keep asking these questions as they come, can you just tell me what equipment I actually NEED to make this a 'safe' and 'stable' system please? You know this stuff MUCH better than me anyway.
NOTE: I do NOT want to underpower my amplifier, I want to run it at it's full potential. Thanks. |
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| Loial |
IMHO the best solution for this ( and without doubt the most economic) , is, as you mentioned, a couple standard sealed lead-acid batteries, a quite heavy battery charger, and a voltage regulator, set to perhaps 12V. Many car audio dealers use this. I think the voltage regulator is important, since some battery chargers can achieve 20V's or even higher peaks...
If you are going to use this setup at home, i doubt you will run it at maximum power, longer than a few seconds at a time.
If you use two 60Ah batteries, you can run the amps at full rms power for more than 5-10 minutes. |
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| JohnnyJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Loial
IMHO the best solution for this ( and without doubt the most economic) , is, as you mentioned, a couple standard sealed lead-acid batteries, a quite heavy battery charger, and a voltage regulator, set to perhaps 12V. Many car audio dealers use this. I think the voltage regulator is important, since some battery chargers can achieve 20V's or even higher peaks...
If you are going to use this setup at home, i doubt you will run it at maximum power, longer than a few seconds at a time.
If you use two 60Ah batteries, you can run the amps at full rms power for more than 5-10 minutes. |
What? Why only 5-10 minutes? They are being charged at a constant rate by the battery charger, so why can they only go for 5-10mins (at the max of 3000watts even)? I don't quite understand. Thing is, I want the equipment to be able to handle me playing at full volume and for say 2 hours at a time.. maybe not FULL volume all the time but I'll be playing at quite high volumes for most of the time. Also, wtf is the point in even getting ANY equipment if it can only handle "5-10minutes"... I think that is something the most idiotic person on earth would do. I'm not attacking your post, but man that just don't make any sense to me aye :P
I don't really want to use batteries, they do go F'd up after a while we know that for sure. I'd prefer using a proper power supply, though I ALSO understand that this might not be possible for around the $500 budget. I can spend no more than $500 for the power supply or whatever equipment to power my amplifier.
Thanks again! |
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| Eva |
| Then don't waste your time with car audio stuff. Second hand PA amplifiers are powerful and cheap. |
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| zagisrule! |
You still don't understand the MOST important part...
Even if you have a 500A supply, you will still need to get at least 15-20A from the wall outlet to power it. Problem is that is neither common nor safe, ALL the power supplies in this size I have seen are multiple-phase units that require a 20A+ breaker and the weird sockets for 110 or 220V usage (go look at the plug on your drying machine to see what I am talking about).
And all you need is a 150A supply, NOT 300.
-Matt |
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| DJNUBZ |
After reading your first post it occured to me that you are asking this question in the wrong forum, you should be asking this in car audio even though it's for a PS. First of all You don't need anything close to 135A to use this amp. The power supplies used at stores are like the ones select products sells. Unless you have bench tested your amp and know what it puts out I can tell you that the 1500wrms at 20hms is a maximum rating at a large amount of distortion. Installers call the the IFS rating (if lightning strikes). Pioneer does not under rate their amps, they over rate their amps. If you want to look at a company that under rates their amps look at JL. Their 500/1 when tested measured at 800wrms into 2 ohms. They also switched to the new standard of mesuring called CEA-2006 which as far as I know pioneer has not. You are also forgeting that unless you are pushing your amp to max power all the time you will never need that many amps. There have been many people who have used even a computer PS to power their car amps in home.
Personally I think that a PS to use your amp at home is a waste unless you are planning on switching amps often to test their sound on high end home speakers. For the price of a PS you could buy a very nice home sub amp. Hell, for the $400 you will spend on the PS you could buy a nice sub and sub amp. Pioneer subs are not known for their SQ. You could buy an adire audio sub and an amp from apexjr or if you don't want to build an enclosure you could pick up a sonnicraft sub kit with enclosure from madisound. Hell for a bit more you could get a NHT sub kit. |
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| DC Dave |
Johnny
If your budget is $500 why on earth would you be considering such a crazy (moronic?) idea. Scrap the car amp idea and buy a real (mains powered) amplifier. Have you ever seen a car battery blow-up? Its not pretty. If you shop around, for $500 you could get a decent starter system including a plate amp for the sub, a receiver, DVD player, and speakers. If it was me I would sell the Pioneer sub and amp and start over. |
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| Loial |
| quote: | | What? Why only 5-10 minutes? They are being charged at a constant rate by the battery charger, so why can they only go for 5-10mins (at the max of 3000watts even)? I don't quite understand. Thing is, I want the equipment to be able to handle me playing at full volume and for say 2 hours at a time.. maybe not FULL volume all the time but I'll be playing at quite high volumes for most of the time. Also, wtf is the point in even getting ANY equipment if it can only handle "5-10minutes"... I think that is something the most idiotic person on earth would do. I'm not attacking your post, but man that just don't make any sense to me aye :P |
Well, to begin with - when you say "playing for huors at full volume" - that is music you play then, right? playing ordinary music, even at full volume, doesn't require the full power from the amps, more like 1/10:th of it seen over a longer time perspective.
( If you plan on playing a 20Hz sine for hours, then your power supply is not the thing to die first. )
And, even more powerful chargers aren't able to deliver anything near 560 amps, more like 10-50 amps, the chargers charge the batteries when the amps aren't using a lot of current.
You should be able to play at FULL rms power for, say, 10 minutes, to be on the safe side with battery lifespan etc...
| quote: | | maybe not FULL volume all the time but I'll be playing at quite high volumes for most of the time. |
Even if you play "quite high", the required power from your amps is not big, because of the logarithmic behaviour of sound. |
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| JohnnyJ |
DJNUBZ > Dude this equipment IS under rated, you obviously haven't checked out the specifications OR calculated technical data. This amplfieir can run at 2000RMS @ 2Ohm CONTINUOUS, if you knew half as much as you think you did about audio equipment, you would know this, or even better - you would be able to calculate this. I DO need a 300amp power supply, the maximum current draw at 3600W, @ 12V input, is 300A. I know that it doesn't draw this current all the time, only when it is at it's peak output power for a couple of seconds max at a time. That is the maximum current it will ever need at it's full power. Which means I won't be underpowering it, which is my goal. ALSO, this amplifier and amp makes chicken **** of a JL W7, even when powered to full potential, believe what you want, but you might want to read some more about my equipment before you start critisizing, it ***** on a JL W7 - WHEN a W7 is powered to it's best. You're talking about 1500wrms @ 2Ohms (at a large amount of distortion) as a MAXIMUM reading.. okay then whatever you say dude, you know everything don't you? You don't know the first thing about what continuous RMS ratings mean, do you? Nor peak power ratings. Obviously not judging by your posts. This amp has a THD of 0.05%. ****, I'm no expert but at least I understand the ****, that is ****all distortion.
DCDave > I'm not asking for suggestions on buying equipment for a HOME THEATRE AUDIO SYSTEM, I'm asking for help on SUPPLYING SUFFICIENT POWER to my amplifier. I'm not a moron either. I don't WANT the equipment you specified, I have the equipment I bought because of a reason.
Guys (and girls) please note that I am getting extremely irritated and frustrated because I just want to sort out how to power this setup, and I'm not really finding a solution yet. When people post **** about getting different equipment, telling me it's nearly impossible or even critisizing my equipment, it just bumps the "F'd off level" up even more. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed.
Peace out~
JohnnyJ |
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| mzzj |
How about 200mV 15000A power supply? :D
Shhure you need thick power cords...
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If you want to power your setup at continuous basis @3kW there is no cheap option in power supply. If you use battery and can live with the information that max power is availlable only for 1 hour per day then 20-50A charger and 4x75Ah sealed lead acid batteries are enough. Even 10Amps charger is enough if you can wait for 2 days after complete discharge :)
Realistically talking that 4x75Ah battery bank will last for 3 to 10 hours even at maximum volume as average power in music is lot less than peaks(and you dont want clipping in your peaks, right?)
Rule of the thumb is that if you use 3kW on peaks and amp is not clipping/distorting then average power is only 300W. (on subwoofer use this coarse rule of thumb is sometimes optimistic, on classical music its pessimistic.)
Starter batteries are bit tricky as they have bad habit to spill acid on your carpet and exploding around your walls. IF you can keep them outside, much better.
Downsides: SLA batteries might last 300 deep-cycle discharges, so you need to renew your batteries every year if used near empty every day. -->cost |
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| Sandy H. |
| quote: | | DJNUBZ > Dude this equipment IS under rated, you obviously haven't checked out the specifications OR calculated technical data. This amplfieir can run at 2000RMS @ 2Ohm CONTINUOUS, if you knew half as much as you think you did about audio equipment, you would know this, or even better - you would be able to calculate this. I DO need a 300amp power supply, the maximum current draw at 3600W, @ 12V input, is 300A. I know that it doesn't draw this current all the time, only when it is at it's peak output power for a couple of seconds max at a time. That is the maximum current it will ever need at it's full power. Which means I won't be underpowering it, which is my goal. ALSO, this amplifier and amp makes chicken **** of a JL W7, even when powered to full potential, believe what you want, but you might want to read some more about my equipment before you start critisizing, it ***** on a JL W7 - WHEN a W7 is powered to it's best. You're talking about 1500wrms @ 2Ohms (at a large amount of distortion) as a MAXIMUM reading.. okay then whatever you say dude, you know everything don't you? You don't know the first thing about what continuous RMS ratings mean, do you? Nor peak power ratings. Obviously not judging by your posts. This amp has a THD of 0.05%. ****, I'm no expert but at least I understand the ****, that is ****all distortion. |
After reading some more about your equipment, I noticed that the Max. Current Consumption (A/4 ohm) was stated to be 70A. This is three lines from the end of the link you posted to your amp.
Why would you prefer to have a 300A supply for a device with 70A max current consumption? If you really believe it is more than that, then put a bunch of stiffening caps to take care of the instantaneous current draw.
After your done, go rent/borrow a clamp on ammeter and post your readings. After all, that will help prove/disprove the specs and your calculations. Yes, even in the "world of physics" as you called it, calculations require confirmation throughout experimentation.
Sandy.
PS: To add a little help, since you do seem dead set on a 300A supply, you need to look for #00 AWG or equivalent wire to ensure a small temperature rise between your power supply and the amp. That is just over 9mm in diameter for the copper conductor, excluding the required insulation. Also note, that this is assuming just a single insulated (American type THHN etc) conductor in room temperature air. If you were to use multiple conductors in one, you would need to de-rate that further.
For a 70A draw, you would be fine with #8 AWG wire (which is about 3mm in diameter). Does it look like the power connections on the amp are sized for 3mm or 9mm copper wires?
Of course, this is per the NEC in the US. The rules might be different where you live. |
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| DC Dave |
| quote: | | This amplfieir can run at 2000RMS @ 2Ohm CONTINUOUS, if you knew half as much as you think you did about audio equipment, you would know this, or even better - you would be able to calculate this. |
According to the manual it is 1500 watts at 2% distortion into 2ohms.
| quote: | | I DO need a 300amp power supply, the maximum current draw at 3600W, @ 12V input, is 300A. I know that it doesn't draw this current all the time, only when it is at it's peak output power for a couple of seconds max at a time. That is the maximum current it will ever need at it's full power. Which means I won't be underpowering it, which is my goal. |
The amp has a 150 amp fuse. Therefore you don't need more than 150 amps. If it draws more than 150 amps the fuse blows. You could start with a 30amp powersupply with a bank of capacitors and be fine b/c average consumption into 2ohms is 15 amps. Thats assuming you will be listening to music, and not doing dB drag racing.;) If you find it is not enough power you can always increase your powersupply current.
| quote: | | You don't know the first thing about what continuous RMS ratings mean, do you? Nor peak power ratings. Obviously not judging by your posts. This amp has a THD of 0.05%. ****, I'm no expert but at least I understand the ****, that is ****all distortion. |
Before you criticize people's knowledge you should have the facts in hand. First off that .05% is into 50 watts at 100 hz which means next to nothing with this amp. You are really looking at 1% distortion at 750 watts into 4ohms and 2% distortion at 1500 watts into 2ohms. |
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| zagisrule! |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
I DO need a 300amp power supply, the maximum current draw at 3600W, @ 12V input, is 300A.... ****, I'm no expert but at least I understand the ****, that is ****all distortion...Guys (and girls) please note that I am getting extremely irritated and frustrated because I just want to sort out how to power this setup, and I'm not really finding a solution yet. When people post **** about getting different equipment, telling me it's nearly impossible or even critisizing my equipment, it just bumps the "F'd off level" up even more. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed.
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I was not mentioned specifically in your list...BUT you DO only need 150A, I DID give you suggestions on ways to do it.
Maybe you can just leave if you're so ****ed and design your own power supply and reap your own failure when it blows up in your face/starts your parent's house on fire/ruins your amplifier?
P.S. Don't take any offence by my posts I am just extremely annoyed. :rolleyes:
-Matt |
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| K-amps |
Don't blame you Matt, All you guys have done is try to help this "expert" out and he is throwing a tantrum and spitting on the hand that rocks him....:whazzat: :whazzat: :whazzat: he is frustrated because he wants YOU to conform to his misgivings and does not want to learn or Understand.
Lastly as with every noobie on this forum, they sometimes think the forum is full of dimwits with no experience who like to "speculate" and who are envious of the noobies good fortune and taste in equipment... ;) |
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| DJNUBZ |
You can get as upset as you want but what I say is true. I have worked as a profesional installer for over a year and a half at a mid to high end company. I have delt with many amp companies such as zapco,alpine,pioneer,JL,kicker,eclipse,xtant and many more. I am not going to pick apart you post or get into a discussion on the truth in car amp ratings. The fact of the matter is that if you want a 12V 300A PS you are going to have to either build it or buy a few PS from select products and piggyback them. Getting upset because you arn't getting the answer you want is rediculous.
I checked into this amp and found that it doesn't require more then 70A max, why are you so dead set on a 300A PS? IF you used a 35A PS you wouldn't have as much power but you would only be down 3-6db which is almost noting.
*edit* I found another sire that posted the cea-2006 specs for this amp.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/p...2869139,00.html
This shows us this amp is 750X1 at 4 ohms at <1% distortion and 1500X1 at two ohms at <1% distortion. To get 3000wrms from a setup with this amp you need TWO of these amps, they bridge together to act as one amp.
Notice that these specs are not what you are claiming and the cea2006 specs don't match the published specs exactly. Mabey if you learned more and got upset less we wouldn't have even needed this thread. |
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| Eva |
This is a class-D amplifier, it will draw almost half the average current as a standard amplifier of the same size.
The peak to average current issue is further solved by employing a 1 to 2 farad capacitor, this allows to run amplifiers of that size with music signals at full output swing with just a 30 or 40A PSU.
I've already mentioned several times that I've powered show-car setups with approx. 2.000W rms in class AB amplifiers, driven continuously at full output swing with music signals, with just a 72A power supply (developed by myself) and a 1.2F capacitor. The power supply was entering current limiting mode during transients, but the BUS voltage was always above 13.2V thanks to the capacitor.
Actually car-audio amplifiers proved to be quite unreliable since they overheated and started to shut down periodically after less than an hour or so of continuous usage, so I had to borrow some fans in a hurry. My PSU was sized for continuous usage and didnt's suffer that problem, though.
I would have preferred to use PA amplifiers, but market dictates the laws... |
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| JohnnyJ |
Yeah sorry for the post I just got extremely fed-up, I'm learning a lot just reading posts from you guys, because you KNOW more than me.. and I'm willing to accept that, I don't want to argue, I'm simply trying to get the facts out there and learn so that I can make the best decision. Excuse me if I try jump ahead of myself with my knowledge bank, okay?
Now..
How do you know that this amp has a 150A fuse rating? I've been searching all over the net for a fuse rating on it and haven't been able to find one! That would have saved me days of time as a START. I can't quite understand the facts behind this though. Please help me to do so. I'll be running my amp and sub at 2Ohm. Continuous RMS is 1500 for 2Ohm, maximum of 3000 at peaks.
150A x 13.8V = 2070W. That can't even REACH the maximum of 3000W at peaks, or am I wrong.. that's how I understand it anyway.
Okay about powering this setup with car batteries - if I use 2x Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclic 200Ah batteries, wire them in parallel, being charged by a suitable battery charger, that should be good enough, right?
I have searched google for information capacitors but can't QUITE grasp the full idea of their function in a circuit. If someone could just put it out to me in simple terms that would be great.
Thanks
JohnnyJ |
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| Tweeker |
Crude explanation of the capacitor in this circuit.
The capacitors are there to take care of peak demand, they charge and discharge far far more rapidly than a battery can, your battery can only supply x amps, though it can do so a long time. A capacitor can supply xxx amps, though not very long. The capacitor quickly recharges from the batteries after the peak. |
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| JohnnyJ |
Thanks for that.
So how do I set this up with a car battery charger and a capacitor then? Battery cahreger connected to AC wall outlet, wired up to a Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclyc 200Ah battery, and a capacitor, then amplfiier and subwoofer? All in series?
How can I calculate what sort of capacitor I need in order to have the whole system running at 1500RMS @ 2Ohm continuous and 3000 peak?
Thanks,
JohnnyJ |
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| Loial |
| quote: | | I can't quite understand the facts behind this though. Please help me to do so. I'll be running my amp and sub at 2Ohm. Continuous RMS is 1500 for 2Ohm, maximum of 3000 at peaks. |
You said it yourself - 3000W at peaks :)
your calculation of 13,8V * 150 A = 2070W is a little incorrect, in fact the amplifier itself has losses in its PSU and amplifier circuitry, with class D, overall effiecency is perhaps 75% ( depends a lot on the amp... ) And 75% out of 2070 Watts is approx. 1500Ws, the rms rating of this amp.
The peak power is measured during extremely short peaks, and thus the slow fuse never reacts, a fuse doesn't trip immediately when the current exceeds its value
| quote: | | So how do I set this up with a car battery charger and a capacitor then? Battery cahreger connected to AC wall outlet, wired up to a Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclyc 200Ah battery, and a capacitor, then amplfiier and subwoofer? All in series? |
Simply put everything in parallell, and the capacitor near the amp, to ensure it's current delivery capabilities. ( see attachment )
One word of caution, though. Be VERY careful if you dont use any kind of voltage regulator, as some chargers can easily deliver more than 20 volts unregulated. In normal use, the battery stabilizes that, but I wouldn't use a charger alone in a permanent installation.
| quote: | | How do you know that this amp has a 150A fuse rating? |
Take a look at the fuse ;)
EDIT
The size of the cap is non-critical, but as large as possible is perhaps a good start? at least a couple Farads... there are some thumbrules, but i cant remember them at the moment... |
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| Loial |
I read the manual of this amp, and pioneer itself, states this:
| quote: | Average current drawn* ... 10.6 A (4 Ù for one channel)
15.6 A (2 Ù for one channel) |
| quote: | | The average current drawn is nearly the maximum current drawn by this unit when an audio signal is input. Use this value when working out total current drawn by multiple power amplifiers. |
This makes selection of a suitable PSU a LOT easier.
the manual:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/p...RS%20MANUAL.pdf |
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| JohnnyJ |
Okay well, seeing as the fuse rating is 150A, that means that it can handle 20V input - right? 3000W/150A = 20V.
Is that right or wrong?
Now I just need to find a suitable power supply or whatever equipment to make this a stable system. Could someone please suggest some specific equipment to use? I've been having a look around at PC PSU's but can't find anything suitable - also I don't know what sort of equipment I really need, seeing as there are so many variations you can use with technology these days.
I don't care if it's a car battery[ies] or a PSU with a capacitor or whatever, I just need to know WHAT equipment now, in order to supply my amplifier with sufficient power.
Thanks a lot! This is really helping me,
JohnnyJ |
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| K-amps |
One thing no one has mentioned is please show caution while attaching a 1F capacitor to a 12v battery! :scared:
Initially install it via a 12v lamp in series or 100 ohm resistor or whatever. NEVER directly or you will melt something and your face will get molten metal all over it. I am not joking :att'n:
Also the same goes for discharging, do it gradually... make sure whatever your application, the cap is not suddenly charged or discharged from full to empty or vice versa. |
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| K-amps |
Johnny,
Fuses are usually overrated as worst case scenario... not rated for the maximum music you can get.. at the 150A level you will be getting a LOT of distortion (assuming the power supply provides it and the amp can sink it). Also Car amp fuses are slow blow, their main reason of existance is to protect itself and the owner from fires... not necessarily the circuit itself.
As posted earlier, this is a 750w amp at 4 ohms and 1500 at 2 ohms. It is not 3000watts RMS.
Unless you have already purchased this amp, I'd say, get a pro-audio amp and bridge it... this is too messy for a home environment.
PS: So you think the Aussies are going to lose the ashes finally?;) |
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| JohnnyJ |
It's maximum power IS 3000W and 1500RMS continuous at 2Ohm. I'll be using it at 2Ohm.
Haha, ****ed if I know. I'm actually South African currently living in NZ, well, have been for the past 5 years :P **** country for teenagers, off to aussie soon though - moving in about 2 months. Big difference between the 2 countries! |
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| K-amps |
| What does maximum power mean to you? Will you be drving square waves with this? |
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| Loial |
| quote: | | Okay well, seeing as the fuse rating is 150A, that means that it can handle 20V input - right? 3000W/150A = 20V. |
- Wrong. As I mentioned, the 3000W rating, is at PEAK power, that is, during very short bursts ( a few milliseconds ).
If you read the manual to your amplifier ( if you have one - if you dont, check the link i posted earlier )
And, as K-amps posted, fuses are only there for worst-case scenarios, to aviod fire and exploding batteries in case of a short.
You cant use the fuse rating as a key to how much power your amp can put out.
Also, if you read the manual - the MAXIMUM voltage for this amp is 15,1 Volt, never exceed that.
The manual states that average current at maximum audio power is 15.6 Amps, I think this i a more realistic number. dimension your PSU after this, A 30A, 12V PSU would do this job good, just add a capacitor to deal with current peaks, and you're up and running! =)
( Yes, a PC PSU is a good choice, there are ones that can deliever more than 35 amps )
EDIT
A 35A@12V Aspire PC PSU is no more than 80$ =) |
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| JohnnyJ |
I don't even know what that means..lol..square waves? I know you get 2 different types and read it somewhere on the bcae1.com site, but couldn't be F'd trying to understand it.
Loial > Mint. Cheers for the help. I might need some more help so please check back regularly! |
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| Loial |
What K-amps means by "square waves" - is that with a square wave, maximum output, is actually the same as peak output. Sort of, at least.
You will never play square waves ( well, never say never ;) ) if you play regular music. |
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| JohnnyJ |
How does that work though.. how can you get the right performance from this amp if you put in MAXIMUM 15.1V at 15.6A?
15.1x15.6 = 235.8W Correct? How does that end up being enough power input? Also, how does that relate to the 150A fuse rating, I am confused as to how these calculations are done, if you can please help me see how this is enough input I would really appreciate it.
I'll be pumping some pretty heavy bass testers and mostly hip-hop music most of the time. If that means anything..?
NOTE: I also can't find those specifications being stated anywhere in that manual, could you please point me to the correct page and direction? Cheers.
THANKS,
JohnnyJ |
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| Loial |
Ok, I'll try to explain this now.
To begin with, the amplifier ratings, are rated at a continous power, i.e. playing a sinewave, when the measurements take place.
rms - means the average power output ( well, not EXACTLY, but that, is an overcourse at this moment ) when you have a light bulb at 25 Watts, that is the rms wattage we are talking about. A sine wave, however, have higher peak power, but that is not really interesting, we are only interested in the light from the 25W lightbulb.
Now, when you play music, you rarely use all available power, at all time. The music has more dynamic properties, if you listen to a song, it is never at full volume, all the time. you have bass drums, basses, vocals, pianos, guitars, and a lot more, but never at the same time ( now THAT would be interesting to listen to ... or not... ) you only use full power at small periods at a time, therefore, the average power necessary, is only a tenth of the full power capabilities. A little more with some music, less with other. This amplifier can output 1500 watts at 2 ohms, but what it really uses, when listening to music, is 150 watts average power. at the peaks, it will probably reach up to 1500, even 3000 watts, but only for very short moments at a time.
That is what you have the capacitor for, to deliver this power, when it is necessary.
Take a look at my cute waveform attachment if you like :)
And dont stare to much at the fuses, they are only a safety device.
And ones again - take a look at the Manual! |
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| Loial |
| Oh - the specifications of the amp, is at page 4, to the right, in the manual |
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| JohnnyJ |
Thanks, can't find the attachment anywhere? Can't find a link to click on either... where do I find a button to click on your attachment or a link :O?
:dead:
Seriously WTF where is it? I can't find any links or pictures to click as an attachment, why is that? |
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| Loial |
I cant see any attachments either... perhaps I'm screwing it up...
I'll try loading the pictures to a website or something... |
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| Eva |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tweeker
Crude explanation of the capacitor in this circuit.
The capacitors are there to take care of peak demand, they charge and discharge far far more rapidly than a battery can, your battery can only supply x amps, though it can do so a long time. A capacitor can supply xxx amps, though not very long. The capacitor quickly recharges from the batteries after the peak. |
Both car-audio capacitors and car batteries show pretty low equivalent series resistances, usually in the range of 0.002 to 0.005 ohms, and both have pretty good frequency response, at least much better than required in order to power low frequency audio amplifierss. There isn't any current limitation either, both capacitors and batteries will produce currents in excess of several kiloamperes when shorted (and being previously charged).
The main difference is the transfer function:
An ideal capacitor satisfies the following differential equation :
dV = (I/C) dt
This means that the voltage across the capacitor increases or decreases at a slope whose value is the instantaneous current flowing divided by the capacitance.
For example, a 1 farad capacitor sourcing 50A will discharge at a rate of 0.5 volts per 10 miliseconds. On the other hand, an amplifier playing a 50Hz note draws a current peak every 10 miliseconds, so the capacitor is going to be very effective in damping current consumption peaks (as seen by the power supply) and keeping voltage stable.
On the other hand, an ideal lead acid battery tends to satisfy the following equation :
V = Vthreshold - log (I) when drawing current
V = Vcharge when charging
Where Vthreshold depends on charge level and tends to be between 12V when discharged and 12.5V when fully charged, and Vcharge also depends on charge level but tends to be between 13V when charged and 15V when discharged.
This means that the instantaneous voltage across the battery will jump between 12V and 14V depending on wether the battery is sourcing or sinking current, thus creating a huge voltage ripple with a lot of high-frequency content (this is the infamous "alternator whine"). The battery just can't supply current at voltages higher than 12.5V and can't be charged if the voltage is not above 13V, thus creating a "floating" voltage zone where almost no current flows (have you ever heard about "floating charge"? it ensures that a battery is kept fully charged by keeping it at the top of the floating zone). This also means that the battery gets harder and harder to charge as it gets discharged because a 14V or 15V charging threshold is a bit hard to reach for a charger when it's also powering an audio amplifier at the same time. This fact dramatically reduces battery lifespan since standard car batteries will age very quicly when subjected to discharge cycles involving more than 20-30% of total capacity.
On the other hand, a capacitor works sourcing and sinking current at any voltage within its ratings, so voltage ripple will be very small and will contain only very low frequencies.
That's why I prefer the capacitor approach, it performs better than a battery altough it requires a current and voltage limited power supply and not just a simple battery charger. |
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| Loial |
I just remembered something - what i am about to say, is in no way a means to throw **** on your equipment, it is just something i experienced myself long ago.
I designed, and built, a 2*8" subwoofer box, for car use. When i finished, of course i wanted to listen to my creation. And of course, my car amplifier wasn't installed yet, so i hooked it up to my hifi-equipment in my livingroom... Damn how dissappointed i was, there was obsoplutely no bass, a lot of airnoise, the box just sounded like ****. Damn, i optimized this box, it was supposed to BANG... well, it didnt... Until i installed it in the car, WHAT a difference, it REALLY played the sh*t out of some larger boxes with dual 10", even 12" woofers.
What I mean, is that your woofer is optimized for car use, and even, for SPL performance. It might sound like **** in your beedroom home theater setup. An SPL optimized woofer is in no way linear, and often have big resonance dips/peaks ( the peaks beeing what some use to achieve their big SPL )
- This is just a word of caution, you might get dissappointed.
That is, with the woofer, I dont dought your amp will do the job. |
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| Supatech |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
Okay about powering this setup with car batteries - if I use 2x Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclic 200Ah batteries, wire them in parallel, being charged by a suitable battery charger, that should be good enough, right? |
Johnny,
For starters, if you have your heart set on using car batteries, it would be improbable to use standard car batteries. I will be explaining why along with other concerns that you presented throughout your posts. And for the record, I downloaded the owner's manual off of Pioneer's website, so when I mention specific numbers and specifications I'm not just guessing.
Battery possibilities:
There are three main types of 12V SLA batteries. They are starter, dual cycle, and deep cycle batteries. To keep it simple, the difference is the size of plates in the cells that hold the charge. The thinnest plates are in the starter batteries, the thickest are in deep cycle, and the dual cycles are in the middle. A standard car battery is a dual cycle battery, and the thinner plates degrade rapidly if they are discharged past 50%-65% of its full capacity. Not even deep cycles will last long if you fully discharge them and then recharge them. The average one will only last 300 cycles or less if used in that manner.
Let's run this scenario: You start out with 2-3 Group 27 SLA deep cycle 130Ah 12V's. (200Ah deep cycle batteries would be much larger, expensive, and difficult to find; although maybe not in Australia) (Also, I already researched this subject completely this year when I bought my boat, and the batteries and charger) A standard car battery trickle charger gives out 1 or 2 amps at 12V. To charge one of the Group 27 deep cycle 130Ah, it would take approximately 12 hours or more to completely recharge it from 60% capacity. To charge 3, triple that time. If you happened to have a battery with a larger Ah capacity, even longer. You could by a faster charger with a microprocessor controlled charging circuitry. That would charge the batteries faster and more efficiently. An average one would have 3 amp charging rates, for 3 different speeds. For example, an average inexpensive one might have 2, 8, and 12 amps respectively for the three different charging speeds.
As regards to what you suggested here:
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
Okay so = if I bought a battery charger that charge the batteries at 6V, and I bought a Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Valve Regulated Cyclic battery at 12V and 28Ah, will that mean that if I connect them in series that I will be getting 6V output seeing as I'm charging the battery at 6V? Also, I could buy 3 or more of them even so that it is more stable, but I'm not sure about how I would connect/wire all those up together to give 6V output. 28Ah means that it can supply 28amps for an hour, 56amps for 30mins, 112amps for 15mins... skip through to 560amps for 3 minutes. That's right is it not? So if I got 3 of those batteries (all brand new) and wired them up in parallel, being charged at 6volts... that should work pretty well. Except, how do I get the OUTPUT from those batteries to be 6v? Will the output be 6v seeing as they are being CHARGED at that voltage, or will they still give a 12v output? |
I won't get into the whole 6V mix-up because you already realized your mistake with the input voltage. For the 12V batteries, they need to be charged by a 12V charger. You could charge 2-3 batteries in parallel with a cheap standard trickle charger, because it pushes 12V at 1A (or 2A if that's the charger's rating) into the batteries indiscriminately. They are not microprocessor controlled, so they charge until the batteries are fully charged and keep pushing. (At such a low amp charge, it won't hurt short term but after a day or more it can start boiling the battery acid and cause a spill) With one of the more advanced microprocessor controller / variable amp rate chargers they shut off after the battery is charged. The drawback is that you can only charge on battery at a time and it has to be disconnected from the other batteries and whatever circuit it is on. The advantage is that you have a faster charge time and will get longer life out of your batteries.
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
So how do I set this up with a car battery charger and a capacitor then? Battery cahreger connected to AC wall outlet, wired up to a Sealed Lead Acid Dry Cell Cyclyc 200Ah battery, and a capacitor, then amplfiier and subwoofer? All in series? |
Let's say that you want to this scenario with a SLA (XXX)Ah deep cycle battery, cheap trickle charger, and a capacitor. For your 1500W RMS goal, you would need at least a 1.5F capacitor. For car stereos, 1F capacitors are common and up to 40+ are being produced. (The generally accepted rule is 1 farad per 1000W RMS, although some like to err on the side of excess.) For the test, starting out with the battery fully charged, you would need to charge the capacitor with the charging resistor that came with it (as the instructions state, or it might be self regulating and have it's own charging circuit built in and not have a separate charging resistor). After it is charged, you connect it to the battery in parallel. You could connect the trickle charger in parallel, but that would be impractical because the amount of amps (15A min. up to 150A, just to throw out some numbers) that the amplifier would be drawing would be greater than the 1A or 2A that the trickle charger would be supplying. You could not simply hook up one of the more powerful CPU controlled ones that I mentioned earlier, because they have to be connected directly to a single battery with no load (nothing else in the circuit).
To play the music for any length of time, you would have to add more batteries in parallel. They all have to be in parallel because you have to supply 12V +/-, and then each battery you add increases the available amperage. As you mentioned earlier, you have to calculate amp hours for each battery against the max amp draw. Even with a good name-brand deep cycle battery, you don't want it to discharge more than 50% of its capacity. As the battery is used, the amps it supplies drops, and also the voltage drops. That is very important as regards to car amps, because every amplifier has an operating voltage range. Once the voltage drops low enough as the battery's charge is used, the amplifier's output will be reduced until it stops because of low voltage. Here are your amplifiers specs:
Power source .. 14.4 V DC (10.8 ¡ª 15.1 V allowable)
Current consumption .. 70 A (at continuous power, 4 ¦¸)
Average current drawn* .. 10.6 A (4 ¦¸ for one channel)
15.6 A (2 ¦¸ for one channel)
Fuse .. 150 A
Maximum power output .. 1,500 W ¡Á 1 (4 ¦¸) / 3,000 W ¡Á 1 (2 ¦¸)
Continuous power output .. 750 W ¡Á 1 (at 14.4 V, 4 ¦¸, 20 ¡ª240 Hz 1.0% THD)
1,500 W ¡Á 1 (at 14.4 V, 2 ¦¸, 20 ¡ª240 Hz 2.0% THD)
So as you see, it can produce 1500W RMS (continuous) at 14.4V at 2¦¸. Using batteries, you are already at a disadvantage because the maximum voltage that a brand new, freshly charged average deep cycle (or any of the 2 other types) could supply would be around 12.7 V (give or take). As you can see in the specs, the fuse is a 150A fuse. The amp draw will of course never go above that. With the battery route, you will not get consistently get full power out of your amplifier. With a combination of batteries and capacitors, you could get close. The other difficulty is cost.
Now let's play with numbers. Based on US prices, a good large capacity 130Ah deep cycle battery costs around $100. A good 1F capacitor would be around $60. Depending on how long you want to play, let's say you want 2 batteries. $200. Two capacitors brings you up to $320. A cheap trickle charger and you're up to $340. You could play full volume with constant bass notes at 130A draw for one hour. Your ears are bleeding, and the two batteries in parallel are discharged to around 50% capacity each. If you want more time, add another battery and another $100. Disconnect the capacitor, connect the trickle charger to the batteries (that are already in parallel) and in a day or two you'd be ready to play again. |
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| Variac |
:cop:
There are too many asterisks and other terms such as WTF, in these posts. At DIY Audio we don't allow this type of posting. Mainly its a matter of style. Ours is rather calm and boring and that's how we like it, because we think that that it is one of the reasons this site is so popular. Think of it like a journal with some decorum. Of course in every day conversation things are different, but this isn't that!
We moderators edit it for a while, then we get tired of doing that and just start deleting your posts.
Thank you for listening..... |
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| Supatech |
Another route:
If you want maximum power and keep batteries out of the house (which are not safe to have in the house), then you could go the power supply route. Here's the scenario:
Your amplifier's specs show, "Power source .. 14.4 V DC (10.8 — 15.1 V allowable)". You could run 15V to it. So, find an inexpensive source for 5V DC power supplies. Run 3 in series to get 15V. They need to be identical so that the amp output is the same. For example, let's say they are 5V, 50A. Three run in series would give you a net supply of 15V, 50A. Set up 3 banks of them, and put each bank in parallel with the other banks. That would give you 15V, 150A by using 9 of the inexpensive power supplies. Use properly rated cabling. For illustration purposes:
PS # 1 (+) to (-) of PS # 2; then (+) of PS # 2 to (-) of PS # 3
PS # 4 (+) to (-) of PS # 5; then (+) of PS # 5 to (-) of PS # 6
PS # 7 (+) to (-) of PS # 8; then (+) of PS # 8 to (-) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of PS # 4; then (-) of PS # 4 to (-) of PS # 7
PS # 3 (+) to (+) of PS # 6; then (+) of PS # 6 to (+) of PS # 9 Then:
PS # 1 (-) to (-) of the amplifier, and PS # 3 (+) to (+) of the amplifier.
Note, if you would go the PC power supply route for the source of 5V power supplies, it is the red wire circuit for 5V, not the yellow 12V. Also, using those power supplies outside of a PC case could possible be a fire hazard. I'm not to be held responsible. Hehe
I think that I have explained most of your questions as thoroughly as possible, but in case I missed anything feel free to ask. I think that this is an interesting idea because I have played with it in the back of my head for years. I'm not at all trying to put myself out there as an expert, but another hobbyist. These are just thoughts based on the actual specs of the amplifier, my experience with batteries, charging circuits, electronics in general, and of course custom car stereo applications and installations. I hope that someone can add to this with their experience with higher amperage power supplies, as I just use one of my deep cycle marine batteries when I test an amp and subs. |
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| xplod1236 |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
150A x 13.8V = 2070W. That can't even REACH the maximum of 3000W at peaks, or am I wrong.. that's how I understand it anyway. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Loial
- Wrong. As I mentioned, the 3000W rating, is at PEAK power, that is, during very short bursts ( a few milliseconds )........
You cant use the fuse rating as a key to how much power your amp can put out. |
Let's not forget about the internal PSU caps. They supply current during peaks, while the PSU itself does not pull more power.
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
15.1x15.6 = 235.8W Correct? How does that end up being enough power input? |
That's average current draw. Once again, the PSU caps help supply current for the peaks. |
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| xplod1236 |
| quote: | These supplies might also be useful for light arc-welding.. *Be very careful not to short out the supply* Seriously!
A penny shorted across the capacitors "buss bars" would result in a small explosion!!
(Don't ask me how I know this!!) |
Haha, I've done that before. I had 9 turns of 10 or 12 AWG wire (don't remember exactly) as the secondary, and a 5 amp breaker on the primary (120v). The breaker tripped after a few seconds of applied power, even with no load on the secondary. That gave me enough time to weld some pennies together. (I never got around to changing the breaker to a 10 amp)
Back on topic, I hooked up a 5 amp bridge rectifier and some caps to it, and I had a nice ~13.7v supply at no load. I hooked up a car amp to it for testing and got quite a bit of power out of it (something like 600 wrms), but only for a few seconds-until the 5A breaker tripped. In that time, the rectifier got pretty hot. I haven't done any long-term testing to see how much the MOT would heat up. |
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| JohnnyJ |
Supatech > Thanks a lot for your help. I think I will go with the PSU idea, not the car batteries. Though I do have some more questions about what power supplies to actually use!
...9 of them, 3 in series and then 3 banks paralleled, daaaayum.
If I get some at 350watt, and 5V each, I will need 6 to produce 15V at a current of 140A, right?, 15 * 140 = 2100. That would be able to supply 2100W max though, which is not really what I want, seeing as I need over 3000W at the peaks, with voltage drop across the wires or whatever and 80% efficiency, CORRECT? Please correct me if that is wrong. It doesn't really matter though because I will most likely just buy a suitable PSU (or multiple PSU's) and a capacitor that is suitable. I don't know if you can have 2 capacitors or whatever but if I need to I will get 2.
If I use a capacitor, what sort of power supply should I be looking for, would a 680watt ATX PSU be good enough? Also, if I used a 680watt PSU, what sort of capacitor rating would be best?
Please suggest some PSU models I can use and where I could buy them from, I have searched but can't find any AT, just ATX. However I think I WILL use an ATX power supply and a capacitor (or multiple capacitors). Otherwise I will use maybe 2 AT power supplies and a capacitor, it all depends on their power ratings though I suppose. Thanks so much again!!
Sorry for language in previous posts - didn't know that swearing isn't really allowed on this forum. My bad. :D
JohnnyJ |
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| DC Dave |
IIRC, ATX power supplies will work. There might be a way to modify them, but I don't know. Simply put, inorder for them to power up and remain on they need to be connected to a motherboard. AT power supplies are not like this. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
Places to look for AT power supplies are PC surplus stores, and places like Ebay. |
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| Supatech |
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
If I get some at 350watt, and 5V each, I will need 6 to produce 15V at a current of 140A, right?, 15 * 140 = 2100. That would be able to supply 2100W max though, which is not really what I want, seeing as I need over 3000W at the peaks, with voltage drop across the wires or whatever and 80% efficiency, CORRECT? Please correct me if that is wrong. It doesn't really matter though because I will most likely just buy a suitable PSU (or multiple PSU's) and a capacitor that is suitable. I don't know if you can have 2 capacitors or whatever but if I need to I will get 2.
If I use a capacitor, what sort of power supply should I be looking for, would a 680watt ATX PSU be good enough? Also, if I used a 680watt PSU, what sort of capacitor rating would be best?
Please suggest some PSU models I can use and where I could buy them from, I have searched but can't find any AT, just ATX. However I think I WILL use an ATX power supply and a capacitor (or multiple capacitors). Otherwise I will use maybe 2 AT power supplies and a capacitor, it all depends on their power ratings though I suppose. Thanks so much again!!
JohnnyJ |
Johnny,
The only difficulty with using computer PSU's is that the total power rating is a combination of the 5V supply AND the 12V supply. You had mentioned using ATX power supplies. They have 5V, 12V, and 3.3V sections.
For discussion purposes, let's establish a baseline. Let's use this $18 550W ATX PSU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16817163028
Here are the DC outputs: +3.3V@28A, +5@40A, +12V@20A, -5V@1.0A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@2.0A
The +5V section delivers 40A. Three in series, 3 banks in parallel, gives you 15V and 120A. If you wanted to go all out, add another bank (which probably wouldn't be necessary, considering the average amp draw of the amplifier), and that would give you 150A. For all four banks, you'd buy 12 PSU's for a total of $216 plus shipping. You wouldn't even need a capacitor with that total supply. The only problem is that Newegg.com doesn't ship internationally. Surely you could find another company that would ship internationally.
When you mentioned using less power supplies and a capacitor or two, that is possible. The thing that you have to remember is that a capacitor in this setting stores and supplies its energy in bursts. The theory behind using it in a car stereo setting is the following:
Without a capacitor, you have the car battery that supplies 12V +/- to the complete electrical system of the car. When the car is running, the alternator supplies 14.4V at an average of 70A - 85A depending on the car. That amperage has to run the spark to the motor, charge the battery, and supply any lights or accessories. Most capacitors that are designed for use in a car are 16V or 20V. It will only charge to the voltage that it is charged with - 14.4V from the alternator.
Most alternators are designed to supply enough amperage to power the car and its accessories, with little extra for additional accessories (high-powered car stereos). (There are graphs that show the benefits of the capacitors, although I couldn't find one quickly on the web.) When the car is running, the alternator under load may only supply a constant 13.5V to the stereo. That's why a capacitor is charged before it is put in use. So the capacitor supplies the extra volts and amperage that the amplifier needs to make full power, and then recharges itself quickly in between extreme loads.
So the conclusion to this is that you can supply 15V with 150A or less to assure that the power will never dip, or 15V with less amperage and a capacitor of 1.5F or more so that it supplements the extra volts and amps in case of brownout (max load). |
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| JohnnyJ |
Well thank you very much. I think I have it sussed now. Might still be some more questions later but for now I think that's pretty much all I need to know.
Thanks for everyone's help, time and effort in helping me with this.
peace out~
JohnnyJ |
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| Loial |
| quote: | | Here are the DC outputs: +3.3V@28A, +5@40A, +12V@20A, -5V@1.0A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@2.0A |
Or you could simply use 7 of them, connect all 12V:s in parallell, and get 140 Amps :) a little cheaper.
Not to mention that it is a lot easier to hook up PSU:s in parallell, than to mess with them in series. |
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| K-amps |
I have had to replace the alternator in my Mitsu Diamante which supplies 110A ... it died.
The culprit was a PPI PC2350 amp and a 1F cap supply... I do not listen to the head pounding stuff anymore and the second Alternator is fine.... it takes a few "accidents" before one realizes that taking things to the nth level is not always good.... ;) |
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| Supatech |
| quote: | Originally posted by Loial
Or you could simply use 7 of them, connect all 12V:s in parallell, and get 140 Amps :) a little cheaper.
Not to mention that it is a lot easier to hook up PSU:s in parallell, than to mess with them in series. |
The only problem with that is that he want full power out of his amplifier. For that he needs at least 14.4V, not only 12V. |
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| Loial |
| quote: | | The only problem with that is that he want full power out of his amplifier. For that he needs at least 14.4V, not only 12V. |
The difference won't be audible, and 15V is in my opinion dangerously close to the amps maximum voltage of 15,1 Volts.
Computer PSU:s aren't the best, and tolerances can be up to +/- 10%, with a ripple of over 100mV:s. Suddenly this 15V could be 16,5 Volts and above. I still say go for the 12V, better be safe than sorry...
Many PSU:s can deliever nearly the same current at 12V as 5V, some even more, making the 12V option far cheaper.
EDIT
A quick compare of 350-500W computer PSU:s:
All the PSU:s have higher current rating at the 12V output, than the 5V. 5V ranging from 21 to 30 Amps, and the 12V ranging 25 to 35 amps. |
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| Tweeker |
1000w 66A 12V PC PSU
Really though, you might want to look for something like the Behringer Europower 2500 Amp, running one voice coil off each channel it would give you 1500watts all day no problem just loafing along. Can be had in US for $270 shipped, but I dont know foreign availibility. |
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| DC Dave |
| Don't forget all the fan noise from running 9 PC power supplies. It might not matter when the music is turned up, but that would drive me crazy at low volumes. |
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| JohnnyJ |
| quote: | Originally posted by DC Dave
Don't forget all the fan noise from running 9 PC power supplies. It might not matter when the music is turned up, but that would drive me crazy at low volumes. |
I think I'm going to stick to the idea of using a single 680watt PC ATX PSU and a capacitor, or multiple capacitors. No way I'll be buying that many power supplies! |
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| K-amps |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tweeker
1000w 66A 12V PC PSU
Really though, you might want to look for something like the Behringer Europower 2500 Amp, running one voice coil off each channel it would give you 1500watts all day no problem just loafing along. Can be had in US for $270 shipped, but I dont know foreign availibility. |
Johnny... the Behringer is very good advice... no noxious fumes in your dorm, I mean bedroom too. :D |
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| Supatech |
I have to agree with everyone about the fan noise. I was not recommending that it is a good solution, but it is at least better than using car batteries or deep cycle batteries. Simply put, Johnny was asking for a way to get maximum power without the PS limiting the amplifier, and what I presented was two options that would do what he was asking.
| quote: | Originally posted by JohnnyJ
I think I'm going to stick to the idea of using a single 680watt PC ATX PSU and a capacitor, or multiple capacitors. No way I'll be buying that many power supplies! |
Now Johnny, I did a search to compare various 680watt PC ATX PSU's, big name and no-name. They all only supply between 38A - 50A for 12V, and doesn't offer voltage supplies higher then 12V. Surely, a 1.5F or 2F capacitor would help supply some of the extra energy when the single PSU hits max load, but you still wouldn't reach full power out of the amp like you had originally requested. It would be good enough for most people wanting a high power system, and audibly you probably wouldn't notice much difference even if you worked maximum power because of of the acoustics of being in a home setting. |
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| JohnnyJ |
I have been wondering about the amp.. trust me.. BUT - this amp is prefect for the sub, I don't think there is another amp out there in the same price class, that will give this performance? I don't mind if it is not a car amplifier, just any amplifier with the same or better performance!
While on the topic, is there any home studio subwoofers that can produce this sort of power/bass for up to $550[ish]USD?
Once again I'm not the expert, you guys are, but judging from hours of surfing the net on the most powerful and - most expensive even amp sites, I can't find anything that has the same or better performance than the Pioneer PRS-D5000SPL.
I'm not sure what this amp costs in the US or anywhere else in the world, but just to play around with numbers a bit, say I had $700USD, what amplifiers would be suitable for my sub? Which will give either similar or better performance than the Pioneer amp that is. Sub can handle maximum 5000W, 2000RMS continuous, only 2Ohm / 8Ohm input - I think, if I'm wrong please correct me.
Thanks again,
JohnnyJ~ |
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| JohnnyJ |
I just found this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--PEVSP218
Features
Two 18 inch Pro Rider Black Widow woofers with Kevlar /carbon fiber cones and field-replaceable baskets, flat-wound 4 inch voice coils, and cast-frame baskets
Frequency response: 51 Hz - 300 Hz
10 dB point: 36 Hz
Sensitivity: 100 dB (1W/1m)
Power handling: 2400 Watts program, 4800 Watts peak
4 Ohms
Baltic birch enclosure
Using that as an example, would that be the sort of specifications I should be looking for if buying a home sub?
Instead of buying all this power supply, etc for the pioneer amp & sub, I will sell this amp + sub. Regardless of whether the product[s] be car audio or not, what equipment will give me bass in the area of 1600-2000RMS CONTINUOUS and up to 4000Watt+ peak? I have about $1450USD to spend in total - for all the equipment, whatever equipment I buy must be a complete setup ready to pump when I buy the items and wire them up.
So basically, I am asking you guys, what equipment can/should I buy that will give me that sort of bass in my bedroom. NOTE: I don't have any equipment right now, nothing. So whatever equipment is suggested should be a full setup, I don't mind if it is (as an example) something like a dvd player for the receiver (to play CD's through), a PA amp and PA sub. Or whatever, I really don't care, I just need equipment in that budget, that will allow me to insert a cd into something, and have it play my hip-hop/low bass beats with that caliber bass. "THAT" caliber bass being bass that will make stuff vibrate in my room to the point that it feels like cracking the walls. There it is, that's exactly what I'm after, the closer I get to that goal, the better, if not reachable in my budget it's cool, I just want the best for my money.
BTW: Does 2400W program mean the same as 2400WRMS CONTINUOUS in car subs? Or what?
Thanks heaps!!
JohnnyJ |
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| Supatech |
Johnny,
If we are now talking about a stereo designed for the home, your options are wide open. Comparing the acoustics and space restraints of a car compare to a house or room, speakers boxes and cabinets are designed differently because of the limitations in a car.
For example, in my car I have an Xtant 1000W RMS amp powering 3 JL Audio 10's which are in a 1.8 cubit ft. box +/-. In my house, my home theater system consists of a Yamaha 100W RMS X 5 ch. receiver, powering a 5 Cerwin Vega surrounds. Instead of the now traditional approach to having a separate powered subwoofer, all of my bass comes from the two front CV 3-way speakers with a 12" sub in each cabinet. Here's my point: the Cerwin Vega 12" speaker sits in a 2.5 cubit ft. cabinet with two 4" ports out the back. With the ports in the back, the bass rever | | | |
