| phillfyspoon |
At the moment the only sub driver i can find is the peerless from wilmslow and that is quite exspensive. there are no stock from aespeakers and looks like there never will be.
I need a decent low fs 15" sub im aiming for a ported design which will go down to about 15-16hz -3db.
any help please? i dont mind importing if it is decent. |
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| richie00boy |
| Does it have to be 15 inch? There are numerous 12 inch options available in the UK now, and a search of these forums will reveal a lot. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| as long as I get my really low fs for home cinema. I have searched this forum alot and they were many availible but now none. there were tempest,Acoustic Elegance AV15,av12 but now there not avialible. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| thanks I have tried them links and bk dont sell drivers anymore mcaudio does not either and the other 2 dont look suitible for my goals I might have two get a titanic from parts express only decent one i can buy overseas it seems. |
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| richie00boy |
| BK don't sell drivers any more? I'm surprised. Are you sure Shadow Works don't have anything suitable? Give them an email with your application/goals :) |
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| phillfyspoon |
| Im thinking of getting a titanic mkIII from partsexpress I need low response for HT and this seems good but im not sure how it compares to peerless and adire etc |
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| RobWells |
Its the shipping that will kill you. I looked into buying 8 Lab12 drivers from there as it's about half the UK price, but add in VAT, import duty and shipping and they're cheaper in the UK!
I got much better rates from madisound - maybe get a quote from them - Absolutely brilliant service aswell. (I bought some peerless mids for my car from them.)
http://www.madisound.com/
Cheers,
Rob |
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| morbo |
| what is wrong with the peerless xls series? |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by morbo
what is wrong with the peerless xls series? |
He said it's too expensive, and he wants to port at 15Hz. Would probably need PR's due to the vent size / box size which adds to cost.
Also said he wants a 15" driver...
Personally I'd love to hear a pair of xls subs, with 4 or 6 or preferably 8 drivers per side, sealed and mounted push push.... I priced it up once though.. :bawling: :D Would have still gone for it if my room was 3' wider (enough to place the subs outside of my mains, against the side wall)
Cheers,
Rob. |
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| morbo |
| I guess prices must be different in jolly old then, here the XLS drivers are not that expensive, realtive to other offerings. |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by morbo
I guess prices must be different in jolly old then, here the XLS drivers are not that expensive, realtive to other offerings. |
£155 + delivery
Approx $270 + delivery. :eek:
Nothing much 'jolly old' over here atm...
Rob. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| how does the titanic mkIII compare to the AE Speakers AV15 or peerless? I modeled the peerless in winisd and it isnt that impressive. the titanic can go as low as the av15 but in a bigger encloser. |
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| morbo |
| Ouch that is a lot! I believe its around $150US around here... I can definately see why its not as attractive in that case. You could always try Ascendant Audio, they may still ahve some atlas or avalance 15s. Also Oaudio will soon be selling the very nice 15" TC sounds drivers by the end of the month, I would take a serious look at them if quality is a main concern. |
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| micb |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
thanks I have tried them links and bk dont sell drivers anymore mcaudio does not either and the other 2 dont look suitible for my goals I might have two get a titanic from parts express only decent one i can buy overseas it seems. |
Not true.
I just contact BKElec they still sell the Peerless XLS 10 and PR.
The Monolith driver which is a modified Lab12 IIRC may be available seperatly later in the year.
XLS 10's are £89 from Bkelec and the PR's are around £40.
A 2 or 3 XLS10's with a pair of matching PR each tuned low and a fair chink of power should be pretty damn good. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| they have a lab12 is that the same used in minolith? what else do they have there site doesnt have alot. |
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| micb |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
they have a lab12 is that the same used in minolith? what else do they have there site doesnt have alot. |
The lab 12 is not the same as the one on the Monolith as I said erlier you can't buy the Monolith driver yet.
Uk has very little subwoofer drivers on offer, you could get the older line Adire Audio Shiva's, Tempests and Tumults in the past but currently we don't seem to have any importers for the brand.
Are you sure completly sure (you were wrong about BKelec) you can't get any Acoustic Elegence 12's (much like like Stryke AV series) from http://www.mcaudio.co.uk/audio-bass.htm
Because they are fantastic drivers better then the older line Shiva's.
3.5 cubes net tuned to 17hz would be excelent. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I knew about the av12 and av15 and wanted them so i sold my velodyne sub which cost me £800 to build one and they said stock would be couple of weeks that was over a month ago and now they are saying they are looking for a new supplier as aespeakers still havent delivered them. so it is doubtfull there will be UK stock but the av12 looks perfect it can go down to 16hz ina 140l vented box. I have exchanged over 10 emails with mcaudio and they still dont have them and they doubt they will get em. |
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| micb |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
I knew about the av12 and av15 and wanted them so i sold my velodyne sub which cost me £800 to build one and they said stock would be couple of weeks that was over a month ago and now they are saying they are looking for a new supplier as aespeakers still havent delivered them. so it is doubtfull there will be UK stock but the av12 looks perfect it can go down to 16hz ina 140l vented box. I have exchanged over 10 emails with mcaudio and they still dont have them and they doubt they will get em. |
Oh dear sorry to hear your plight :(
What Velodyne did you have? |
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| phillfyspoon |
I had a cht-15 bought it a couple of years ago but it is gone now :(
I tried emailing aespeakers and i got a reply and they said they had over 700 messages and they are trying to get though them all. I might hold up for awhile longer and see if I can get hold of an av12. |
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| RobWells |
If you don't fancy the pro subs or the importing costs then you could try a -long- session going through the better brands of car subs and modelling them in winISD. The later version has loads of car subs in it's database. Watch the x-max figs on them, some are low excursion compared to the adire etc stuff..
Just did an 18" JL in a ~300L (might have been nearer 400 on second thoughts) box. Did your -3dB @ 15Hz requirement.
btw - don't forget about room gain when you model, unless you actually want a boomy response in room. - For example in my room a sub would need to be modelled to -10dB @ 15Hz to be measured flat 'in room'
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...fe&pagenumber=2
Cheers,
Rob. |
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| richie00boy |
| My room gain plots have vanished on that post due to my changing locations. I'll PM a moderator to get the post edited with the new location. |
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| RobWells |
Thanks Richie00boy
If I had some money to invest I think I'd get a bunch of 15's built for selling in the UK / Europe. Surely must be some money to be made doing this, seeing as there seems to be none on the market here.
Rob. |
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| richie00boy |
I've PMd Pinkmouse but maybe he's away or too busy to edit the posts.
Do you reckon there's mileage in 15 inch subs in the UK? Might be worth Shadow Works putting some out, their 12 inch stuff is fantastic. Why not drop them an email? |
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| RobWells |
I doubt just in the UK, but add in demand from all of europe and there should be enough. I doubt if it would buy me a house though:D
Rob. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I just want my AV12 from aespeakers lol |
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| micb |
| quote: | | Do you reckon there's mileage in 15 inch subs in the UK? Might be worth Shadow Works putting some out, their 12 inch stuff is fantastic. Why not drop them an email? |
After speaking with them some time ago I doubt Shadowworks will produce 10's, or 15's subwoofer for some time and mabye even never.
From a production perspective a 10's costs the same to make as a 12 inch woofer but its not worth the smaller mark up.
Plus you need find and test decent range of baskets for different sizes so it really is a big job.
If you look the best sales is often 12's anyway. |
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| RobWells |
You've definitly got a point re: 10" manufacture vs 12".
There are 12" subs and 10" subs available to buy in the UK albeit very few. There doesn't seem to be any 15" subs available in Europe at all! (Specifically for home users) I'd imagine most decent oem manufacturers have enough baskets in their 'pro' range to adapt, leaving only the heavier cone, surround, magnet and voice coil to sort out:D Don't read much into this btw - I've no idea what goes into speaker r&d... I believe eminence built the shivas and tempest though..
It just seems odd to me that in a whole continent you're unable to buy a 15" sub.
Cheers,
Rob
Phillfyspoon - I'm suffering a bit too. I bought 3 tempests with a plan to upgrade to 4 when I could afford it. Ready to buy now but can't get one. If I sell my 3 on theres nothing to replace them with, and if I keep them I'm still one short.
How about the lab12 drivers? A bit of a fudge but 'kind of' near your f3 of 15Hz.. |
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| luukie81 |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
I just want my AV12 from aespeakers lol |
well, i want one too...but i'm in the Netherlands. Maybe we can order them from the states..and let them ship to europe..so we can share the shippingcosts.
I already checked the shipping costs from the Netherlands to the UK for 30lbs. That will be around 30 euro's, so that's about 20 GBP. |
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| RobWells |
luukie,
Do you have to pay import tax / vat (sales tax) on them when they arrive ?
I believe posting from Europe to the uk is tax free now ?
(Am thinking of buying 4 x AV15 and selling the tempests on, if it works out viable ~ £550)
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
| If u can get hold of them I havent got a reply from email I sent weeks ago. |
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| luukie81 |
Well, if we can work this out, I think it's better to send the whole order to the UK and then send one from the uk to me. I think that's the most cost efficient way, if you (Rob) are in.
Could you please email me an adress in the uk, so I can figure out what the cheapest way it is to ship it to Europe?
Oh and could one of you please find out how much it is to ship one driver (about 30 lbs right? not sure though) from the Uk to the Netherlands? |
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| RobWells |
Right,
Phillfyspoon - what did you want - av12 or av15 ?
If you confirm I'll phone up AE and get some quotes for delivery to UK.
About to check now on import duty.....
Please bear in mind I'll only do this if it works out cheap enough for me - I can't go over £550 for 4 units.
Cheers,
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
i want an AV12 mate
import duty is 4% to UK |
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| RobWells |
Just phoned AE. Am waiting on a quote.....
Rob. |
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| luukie81 |
you can check the price here:
http://yellow.mynethost.com/~bv126368/shop/catalog/
I don't know if the site is up to date though but I really hope we can work this out...
The import duty is 10% in the Netherlands and we have to pay 19% vat over the total amount incl. shipping. |
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| RobWells |
Am waiting for a quote including shipping to UK.....
If I send a speaker to you you won't pay import or vat as its already been paid here... I think.
The speakers are $1020 + shipping, import duty and vat... (to UK)
Not looking too viable at the moment. :(
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
| so £571 for all subs all in to the UK? |
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| RobWells |
:D You are joking ?
$1020 is just the cost of the drivers - you have to add shipping, then import tax and vat.
Thats why I'm waiting for the quote inc. shipping. Am expecting shipping to be around $300 - $400 .
My OTTOMH guess would be around £1000 delivered to UK. Which would make it unviable. But lets wait until I get the quote shall we?
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I was thinking $300 then vat is 17.5% then 4% import duty thats $1613 or £902 |
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| RobWells |
Or at the $400 guess, about £980. Add in the cost of delivery to the netherlands for 1 unit, and to wherever you are and it goes up even more.
Rob. |
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| luukie81 |
Can't we get a discount cos, if we are buying we are buying 6 units at once. What we are getting now is basically normal retail price..but eum...yeah it's kinda hard to make a judgement because i'm thinking in three different currencies...uk, us and euro.....kinda confusing..
could one of you please figure out what the shippingcosts will be from the Uk to the Netherlands (Rotterdam)? |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I caculated with a couple of shipping companys about £55. if it was 30lb |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by luukie81
Can't we get a discount cos, if we are buying we are buying 6 units at once. What we are getting now is basically normal retail price..but eum...yeah it's kinda hard to make a judgement because i'm thinking in three different currencies...uk, us and euro.....kinda confusing..
could one of you please figure out what the shippingcosts will be from the Uk to the Netherlands (Rotterdam)? |
AE's phone no. : 920-469-9198
Phone and ask. I doubt it as the amount is too small.(and the prices are good anyway)
Rob.
Still waiting for quote.
Luukie81. You need to find out if you have to pay import duty on stuff from the UK. |
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| KevinTams |
If it's OK to join in I wouldn't mind taking 2 of these, may make it a bit more attractive for a discount?
If these are imported into the UK and duties and VAT are paid here then sending them to Holland won't attract any costs other than postage.
10Kgs parcel sent 3-5 day delivery from the UK to Holland is £37.70 by Royal Mail
Kev |
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| RobWells |
Hmmm,
Starting to look like a group buy going on.....
Give me a couple of days to phone them back and see if a group discount is possible, and if so how many units we'd need to buy to get some discount.
Rob. |
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| luukie81 |
Jup, Kevin is right. We have a free traffic of goods now in the EU, so we don't have to pay any duty or tax when shipping goodies within the EU.
@ Rob, thanks a million for making all the phone calls and getting things sorted!!
I can call them too if you really want me to, but I'm not native english..so there might be a small barrier you see...but if there's anything you need help with..let me know! |
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| phillfyspoon |
| Rob how and when are you getting a quote do they email you? |
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| RobWells |
Meant to be receiving quote in an e-mail.
Am phoning them in a minute to see about a group buy.
Rob. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I hope they can do something im itching to get building:smash: |
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| RobWells |
Gotta phone back in an hour.
Those IB15's look tempting in blocks of 4.
Rob. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| The IB15 Needs a gigantic enclosure to work in a box but go very low 13hz -3db in a 600 litre ported. |
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| KevinTams |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
The IB15 Needs a gigantic enclosure to work in a box but go very low 13hz -3db in a 600 litre ported. |
Have you seen this http://sound.westhost.com/project48.htm ? It would seem that both AV12 and AV15 are suitable for this treatment. I'm a total novice on speaker design and need these to go under a sensitive OB speaker so this project looks interesting. Any comments?
Kev |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
The IB15 Needs a gigantic enclosure to work in a box but go very low 13hz -3db in a 600 litre ported. |
But a sealed 200L Q=0.8 box gives more output down low than a tempest sealed 200L Q~0.6 box.... I guess being called IB suggests not designed for ported use - IB is still a 'sealed' alignment...
Phillfy - Still looking at flat down to the teens ? -Whats your thoughts about room gain issues ?
Rob. |
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| RobWells |
Tried to phone back twice tonight - answerphone both times.
Will try again tomorrow.
Rob |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by KevinTams
Have you seen this http://sound.westhost.com/project48.htm ? It would seem that both AV12 and AV15 are suitable for this treatment. I'm a total novice on speaker design and need these to go under a sensitive OB speaker so this project looks interesting. Any comments?
Kev |
Try a search on 'linkwitz transform' Benefits - small box, deep bass. Drawbacks - Need high power amps, need lots of displacement to stay low in distortion (esp for AV vs Music)
Rob.
One of the best things ever posted here (imo) Thanks Kelticwizard : (This chart plus a distortion chart is my desktop (I know - sad,sad,sad :D )
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...PL+Volume+Chart |
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| phillfyspoon |
| Do u think it will be a problem witout EQ? |
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| RobWells |
Unless your room is huge..... oh yes.
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
| what problems will i have for a medium sized living room? |
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| RobWells |
Did you look at the link I posted earlier in this thread ? My rooms 21' x 10' . I get a free 10dB of spl at 15Hz thanks to room gain. If my sub was -3dB@15Hz then I'd actually be +7dB at 15Hz.
In my experience this would make my bass sound 'slow' 'boomy' 'muffled' 'lacking definition' etc etc... Possibly ok for home cinema, where some boost at the lowest gives a 'fun factor' but for music no thanks... Could also make any room modes more pronounced.
Horses for courses I 'spose.
Rob
A fairly safe 'guesstimate' would be to model for a low Q sealed plot or an EBS plot. If my tempests were ebs instead of sealed they'd measure pretty flat in my room without eq. |
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| ShinOBIWAN |
You might not be interested in this one but:
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/
Have a huge range of subs for car audio and out of that huge range there's a few choice ones that make quite astounding home subs.
I have personal experience with the RE XXX 15" v3, its basically a Tumult with a higher Fs of 28hz, its got the XBL2 motor, uses the same basket but has a different and possibly more stiff cone.
I used it in a 110ltr sealed enclosure and it was quite the performer with a transform down to 13hz -3dB in room.
I have a good friend who also pulled his hair out at the lack of 15" subs in this country and ended up buying a car sub much like I did with the RE XXX. He ended up with the 15" Diamond Audio D6 in a 2.5cuft sealed enclosure with EQ. This, to my ears, is even better than the XXX as far as hi-fi is concerned. Quite a bit less Xmas than the XXX but VERY musical and rates in my top 3 subs that I've heard ever.
I'm aiming to build something like his in the future.
I've owned a quite a few subs over the years from SVS PC-Ultra through to 2 x Paradigm Servo 15's. Non of these could really hold a candle to that Diamond D6 15" for all round quality. One thing I have never heard done so well is the combination of slam and depth combined, most deep subs sound a little too polite, sure they rattle the room but they don't have that kick that you can really feel. That Diamond goes real deep - as deep as my XXX but has more slam even though the response curves are both similar. Could be the rooms but eitherway I think its one of the best subs out there regardless of whether or not its car audio.
In fact Von Schweikert uses the very same driver in his $50,000 VR-9
I've also heard that the JL W7 range is rather good, though go for the 12" or 13" for the best results.
These drivers are pricey though:
RE XXX 15 v3 = £400
Diamond D6 15 = £400
JL W7 = £600(12") £750(13")
What you get though is some the best tech and materials in the world of subs. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| thanks alot mate might consider for a future project |
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| phillfyspoon |
| any experiance on the cheaper ones i the £200 range? and would the D6 outperform a svs ultra? |
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| phillfyspoon |
| Just to let everyone know that the guy from AE speakers is very ill been speaking to him on msn messenger so thats why things arnt moving quickly. We will have to be patient with him |
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| simon5 |
| That guy really need some reinforcements. He try to do everything alone. |
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| RobWells |
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
Just to let everyone know that the guy from AE speakers is very ill been speaking to him on msn messenger so thats why things arnt moving quickly. We will have to be patient with him |
In that case , could you just let him know what were trying to do here, and we'll suspend this until he's better ? Maybe he could let us know when he's ready by posting here...
Rob |
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| RobWells |
Ant, How could I forget that xxx sub ? Didn't think you kept it ..
Rob |
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| phillfyspoon |
| ShanOBIWAN I have been lokking at the RE audio series they are alot of money but do go low in a ported box so what would u recommend I dont want to go over £210 for the driver and want a 12" because the 15 would need a very large box. How would a driver in this price range compare do u think to must home subs being a car sub? |
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| ShinOBIWAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by RobWells
Ant, How could I forget that xxx sub ? Didn't think you kept it ..
Rob |
Sadely Rob I sold it on last year to a car audio buddy.
Great sub and I miss it, overall I'd say it was around the same sort of ball park as the CS-Ultra I had. Both were quite scary with HT but lacked the out right quality for really decent music reproduction - and I'm being picky here but when it comes to bass I think its much harder to get great results rather than just good.
The Diamond D6 is definitely in the great catagory, they've also just released the D9 series which is around double the price at £800 but I'd imagine is quite simply amazing, if its brother is anything to go by.
| quote: | Originally posted by phillfyspoon
ShanOBIWAN I have been lokking at the RE audio series they are alot of money but do go low in a ported box so what would u recommend I dont want to go over £210 for the driver and want a 12" because the 15 would need a very large box. How would a driver in this price range compare do u think to must home subs being a car sub? |
Whilst its easy to dismiss car audio drivers such as HF and midrange units in favour of hi-fi or home items, I really believe that the best subs out there full stop are a few of the car audio ones.
They have a ton of money poured into the R&D because the market is so competitive and vast. What you'll find is the the best tech from the car audio subs tends to slowly trickle down into the hi-fi and home market. These guys lead the field.
Generally steer clear of SPL subs since they have been optimised for SPL over quality, its the SQ competition subs that you really need to look at.
They have advantages and disadvantages though, usually higher Fs which doesn't really mean a lot since you transform the response very easily and big excursion with excellent THD figures thanks to advanced motor designs.
They also tend to use more compact box's since they do have to fit in a car, so you could be pleasantly surprised at just how big you can go with a modest box - I had a 15" in 110ltr box.
Another downer is that most are dual voice coil, actually that can be a good thing since sensitivity is increased but then again if your running dual 2ohm coils, you really, really don't wont to wire these in parallel otherwise your amp won't last a movie let alone a few years. So you need sturdy bi-amping for a single driver.
I really couldn't hazzard a guess as to a decent £200 car audio sub for home use. I took a chance with the XXX and my mate took another chance on the Diamond D6, it worked out well for me and very well for my mate but all you can do is take an educated guess from modelling and looking at the TS parameters or better yet, speak to folks who've tried it before. |
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| phillfyspoon |
| I modelled the SE12 in winisd and it had a -3 of 18hz in a 140l ported box. But the specs didnt have a xmax? I might go for the se12 with 250w plate amp |
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| ShinOBIWAN |
Careful with that kind of excurson from a 12" unit in a ported enclosure. 18hz needs a sub to move a lot of air and you'll quickly run into distortion and bottoming out at high levels.
Sealed is better for most of these drivers, look out for a highish Qtc of 0.4 - 0.6 for good results in a sealed box. 140ltr is a large box for a 12", with this you'd certainly have an infinite baffle loading (driver cone dominates the air mass) rather than acoustic suspension (air dominates the driver cone).
Personally I like a critically damped enclosure with a Q of around 0.5. They have a certain control and intelligebility that I just don't get with high Q designs.
Also in a sealed design, I'd cetainly say that the box construction is just as important as the driver itself. It needs to be fairly massive, especially the baffle and heavily braced.
If you can stretch to it the RE SX 12 v4 looks like it could be a good driver for home use. Personally though if £200 is your limit the AE AV12 is a very safe bet with a lot of good feedback. You'd be chancing it on SX 12 to be honest. If its at all possible I'd beg that you save for a Diamond D6. You'll be quite amazed at the performance - I was and as soon as I'm finished with some speakers I'm building, that's going to be my next project for sure. |
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| ShinOBIWAN |
Also forgot to mention:
Consider a Linkwitz Transform circuit and/or parametric EQ.
The parametric EQ is easy to solve since you can buy units such as the £70 Behringer DSP1124, with this you can get a flat response in your room resulting in much more natural bass.
Linkwitz transform takes a good and capable sub on to the next level IMO. What you can do is transform, hence the name ;), your F3 point to really whatever you like within reason. 15hz is a good point and will improve you group delay and phase in the entire audible operating range of the sub.
This all doesn't come for free though, you need to use the sub in a sealed enclosure because of the excursion at these levels. You also loose SPL and power handling because the driver is going so low. That's the reason its best to use over engineered and excessive drivers with an LT circuit because they lap up this sort of stuff, lesser drivers will distort and bottom out quite easily. |
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| richie00boy |
phillfyspoon,
How much effort are you prepared to put in measuring parameters and building EQ circuits?
If you don't mind some work then take a look at the Genesis from www.shadowworks.co.uk should be within your budget and I can vouch for them :) |
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| John_E_Janowitz |
I just figured I'd pop in since the AV woofers were mentioned in the thread. The delays on the woofers are over now and Marshall Choong Audio does have them in stock.
http://www.mcaudio.co.uk/
John |
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| BAM |
| Yes, you want to go with the AV series woofer. Lots of clean Xmax, and then enough Xmech to prevent damage should you let things get a little out of hand. |
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